Thanks for starting this engaging discussion :sparkle: — Amity

Thank you for engaging!

It has been a pleasure to read your reply. Somehow, for reasons which are beyond me in this moment, doing so has brought warmth into my chest. Perhaps there is something kindred in your path which my soul identifies with. I am fully uncertain. And that is perfectly okay.

My first series of thoughts: Why do you ask? Why would we want to develop? How do we know what, if anything, is wrong with our current status? — Amity

I suppose the inquiry comes with knowing that by asking questions, we are exploring. It is knowing that I can be wrong, which is a lesson that I am grateful to have learned. I am capable of operating from a place which could be different and better and I could be totally unaware of that fact should I sit in a stagnate soup of comfort without asking myself why? Why do I feel, think and behave as I do.

This feels natural to me. To explore, to question, to wonder. I don't even have to find the answers. I want it to be deeply felt in that moment when my transition from this form comes and I return all which I have borrowed in this lifetime, that I spent at least some of my moments seeking valuable insight and understanding of the nature of reality and existence and my own place in that. That I didn't allow my days to be whittled down by sitting idle without a sense of direction.

There is a deep place within me from which the question emerges. A powerful yearning, like the beating of my heart as I feel the blood in my body flow to energize and bring vital movement to each of my organs which operate this vehicle.

Perhaps we know that something needs to change when we begin to watch ourselves act and behave in ways which stir either internal conflict and/ or bring any measure of harm to those around us. I think that it is in those moments which compassion compels us towards learning. I know it does for me.

If I am capable of reason, I'd like to use it. The alternative feels like being trapped in formative years of primitive patterns which fuel my animal roots. I can see clearly that while I share fundamental similarities with wild animals, that humans are evolved different. My undeniable awareness of that urges me into a sense of responsibility.

Perhaps we need to pay more or less attention; observe what is happening right now.
As you say, what is your 'base-line'?
Where are you at in your life? Think about your values regarding care of body, mind and spirit?
What are your usual habits or patterns of thought, emotions and behaviour?
Are they helping or harming you or others? — Amity

Excellent questions to point me toward self inquiry.

Turn to philosophy? — Amity

Definitely. It's done far more for my mental and spiritual development than religion or escapism ever did.

It would be good if you could expand on the sources you found helpful; what 'path' have they walked? — Amity

There are a couple of individuals in my personal life who I've walked with that have taught me a great deal in showing me some basic building blocks.

When I say "path", I suppose I point to their navigation which has born similarities to my own that in their well earned lessons further along than me, I have been able to see how they handle circumstances to which those corresponding tools are in alignment with my own needs and nature. We have shaped one another.

Our needs differ and what works for you, may not work for me. But it also might just be adaptable and useful to someone else.

These souls in my personal life do have strong philosophical and spiritual roots.

I could speak of course for any philosopher as well who has shared their wisdom with us. I have only scraped the surface when it comes to philosophical teachings. I am looking at the wisdom that Socrates has left behind at this time.

Also, what tools and how have you adapted them to suit your needs? — Amity

The tools themselves vary from being as physical as training myself to breathe more consciously to being as conceptual that I wouldn't know where to begin with explaining them.

Meditation both in sittings and in that of viewing life as such in practice, fasting and various approaches to our relationship with food, physical movements, mindfulness of various forms of consumption, reading, journalism and sharing ideas, learning the usefulness of establishing reference points, mental exercises and learning tricks of the brain are some examples of what comes to mind without effort in this moment.

Perhaps, borrowing from a Stoic's perspective? — Amity

I actually did find the stoic perspective to be quite helpful for me during a difficult period. Not to say that I've ceased integrating and learning from those unique teachings. There was just a time when they had a greater effect on my daily life.

If you are interested in cultivating an awareness of awareness then Idealism is a logical avenue.

Interesting!

I've spent the majority of my almost 29 years operating primarily from my mind, with very little flow going to my body or spirit. I am coming to understand now that we need balance and that by hiding away in my labyrinth of thoughts, I have not fully allowed myself previously to face and accept reality without some degree of distortion of truth.

It is because of this actually, that a healthy bit of skepticism in my observation of the thinking mind has found it's way into my field of view. I've been inspired to seek clarity, both with and without myself as a subject in the matter.

Perhaps due to over correction at this point in my journey, I am not quite certain in this moment how to approach the idea that our reality itself is dependent upon our thoughts. It seems to me that this is giving oneself a tremendous amount of power, influence and special regards over that which we just happen to be existing around, in and within.

It makes sense to me however, to insert perception into this as in to say that our perception of reality is dependent upon the state and quality of mind. If my mind is sound and I balanced, then I might see the truth of reality more clearly then if I were peering through...outdated lenses which need an updated prescription.
— Pantagruel

Simultaneously an exploration of the relationship between acting and conceptual knowledge, and where the thought of a concept becomes the concept of thought, becomes thought. — Pantagruel

This has signaled to me a deeper investigation of the nature of thoughts and concepts. Thank you for your reply I am excited to explore what is arising.

awareness of awareness — Pantagruel

Would you expand on your view of this?

How would one know that she is aware of being aware? And could she be aware without awareness of such?

Is your first thought aware of itself? Or is your second thought a reflection on your first thought (as mine is).

My feeling is that thought distracts awareness away from the present into the labyrinth of thought. Thus the suggestion is that thought and effort in this matter are counterproductive, as if one would strain to relax. the only 'how' to relaxation is to strain, and then stop straining. Think very hard about stopping thinking, and then stop. — unenlightened

My appreciation of this reply stems from its simplicity and reminder to relax into this process. I take from this to allow the process itself to carry me and I view myself as being along for the ride.

Brings to mind "effortless effort."

This is a different way of thinking about awareness than mine, but it's interesting and well thought out. It made me go back and look closer at how I experience my own awareness — T Clark

This stands out to me. Particularly the last bit about how you experience your own awareness.

Is awareness in whatever degree of clarity you happen to experience it really yours or are you experiencing awareness and privy to something outside of yourself, within yourself?

Is it ours? Shared? Collective? Connected? Separate? Unique? Dependent? Independent?

Does this instinctively easy sense of ownership and perhaps even division distract us from anything?

I agree that thought can be labyrinthian; a complex structure of pathways which can be a confusing maze and amazing.
It is always present and will not be stopped.
The effort to do so, in my mind, would be counter-productive.
It is more about training the mind. And that takes thought. And awareness. And focus. — Amity

I agree. This is where I am at presently and is in part, a motivation for my original inquiry.

There is an assumption common to meditative practice and cognitive science that one can make a distinction between a pre-reflective and a reflective form of awareness , and a distinction between attention and what what one attends to. But if reflecting on one’s consciousness is distorting, then so is the ‘pre-reflective’ experience of awareness. Any form of consciousness or awareness is an awareness of something other than itself. There is no self to be aware of except a self that arrives to us from the world every moment as a changed self. To turn back to oneself, to turn ‘inward’ in order to examine the being of consciousness is a being exposed to an outside. Studying consciousness is studying g self-transformation, and this means participating in the transformation rather than standing outside of it. — Joshs

What I first take from this is that if someone is to first become aware of their own thoughts and then to reflect on them and the result is distortion, then there is an indication that something is amiss and that perhaps it is time to change. To avoid this is to perhaps avoid the source of the internal conflict which is being reflected in those mental thought patterns?

I'd like to spend some more time with these points as well.

I don't understand what you mean by the question. — Tom Storm

It think it is wonderful that you don't understand the question. That implies that understanding may be within reach and that there is something to potentially explore.

Sure, people bark on about consciousness and awareness all the time (especially in California), but what are you specifically referring to and what are you hoping to find? — Tom Storm

My meaning of the question speaks for itself. It doesn't need a complete answer. The question itself and all which arises with it, is enough. If I have an expectation, then I have already limited myself.

An inner stirring desired to express itself and to be shared amongst other minds, particularly those of which seemingly like myself, willingly choose to put their mental energy towards the study of truth and principles of being.

I chose to initiate broad as to leave the door wide open to invitation of as many perspectives as possible. And as naturally occurs without effort, we have each brought relatable and narrow focus to the content here, based on own unique experiences. How can we have greater room to shape the conversation if it already has a defined form?

Fascinating that these inquiries would coagulate most densely in a single geographical region.

Personally I don't think these sorts of questions matter very much. — Tom Storm

If you don't think that these sorts of questions matter very much, why are you allowing this discussion to take up space within your mind?

↪Deus
I am presenting some questions and my sincere view of the OP. These terms are so broad and used so differently and ubiquitously that I am curious what s/he means. I have my own thoughts based on decades of reading/living, but when we ask questions here it is not always because we don't have an answer, it is to find out more from the other person.

This OP to me is far from clear. Also, I do think setting yourself a task of self-awareness is pointless. Self-awareness, like happiness, is not something you can aim for - it happens as a result of other things. Like paying attention while you live your life.

Analysis is paralysis
- J Krishnamurti New York 1974 — Tom Storm

I welcome your view!

I am sure that you will share and contribute whatever feels right for you to do so. I ask for nothing less, nothing more.

I do not have a definitive answer to the questions that I have asked here.

What if we re-framed this instead as someone suspecting that they are experiencing greater degrees of awareness and consciousness and as a result, they experience this mental initiation into the new and unfamiliar territory. Does this change anything for you?

So instead of aiming for something that they are trying to achieve, it is already happening to them and they are simply attempting to intellectually understand what is unfolding and what place such an experience has in the physical world where they share in life with billions of other humans.

Also, what harm can come of asking these kinds of questions? If a conversation doesn't attract us, we can easily access our freedom to move on to another which speaks to us more deeply.

Consciousness is the attunement of all senses to thinking processes.

By attuned I mean the processing of sensory input for the organisms interaction with environment. But it goes beyond this to include the area of pure thought/reason as elucidated by Kant who provided more than a satisfactory answer on the matter. — Deus

This is interesting.

I like the connection here of the two, the thinking processes and the senses.

Thank you for sharing.

I'm here to speak for poetry. I don't get a lot of it, but when I do, it goes somewhere really different than non-fiction or fiction. It can lead to awareness of a whole different part of who I am.

Just because you don't get it doesn't mean there's nothing to get. I feel the same way you do about poetry about jazz. I don't get it. It doesn't move me. On the other hand, I can see there's something there. Even if it doesn't work for me, I can see and hear value while not participating. Also, a lot of people whose judgement I respect are moved by it. — T Clark

Agreed.

Your way of existing may be different from mine. What feeds you, may not be adequate nutrition for me.

What moves one, may be lost on another.

None is greater or lesser than another.

It's about being reached, not the "what" of what reaches us.

:smile: — GLEN willows

:)

And then when it comes to the socially constructed aspect of selfhood, you would want to understand the implications of what you are taking on board. There are choices. But few ever realise this is the game. They just go for what’s on the shelf as the expected purchase. And if not that, they shop in the gluten free or organic aisle instead. — apokrisis

In other words, which beliefs have captured us?

I'm late to the game in getting around to these responses but the energy and effort is still bouncing around in here and wants to move! — Universal Student

For some reason, none of your tags of my name show up in my "Mentions" page. If I don't respond to a comment of yours, that may be why.

I feel a smidge out of my league. — Universal Student

It doesn't seem that way to me.

I have the sense that I am on the younger end of the spectrum of folks here — Universal Student

The average age of forum members is 86. We call anyone under 60 a youngster. Anyone under 45 is a whippersnapper.

If I may, how would you describe the experience of awareness from the outside? — Universal Student

Your opening post and most of the other posts on this thread are looking at awareness from the outside.

This is interesting. I'll have to think more about these distinctions. How did you come to the...awareness, that awareness is pre-verbal? This brings up quite a bit for me. — Universal Student

I can experience something without putting it into words. Wait for a second.....There, I just did it. From there, I can either just let it go or I can put it into words.

Would we say then that awareness is the knowing that there is something occurring within ourselves — Universal Student

I don't think awareness has anything to do with knowing. For me it has to do with paying attention.

Is awareness in whatever degree of clarity you happen to experience it really yours or are you experiencing awareness and privy to something outside of yourself, within yourself? — Universal Student

It's happening in my mind. Yes, it's really mine.

I don't think awareness has anything to do with knowing. For me t has to do with paying attention. — T Clark

Okay, that makes sense. It's the attention and focus on what is taking place.

The average age of forum members is 86. We call anyone under 60 a youngster. Anyone under 45 is a whippersnapper. — T Clark

Noted!

What if we re-framed this instead as someone suspecting that they are experiencing greater degrees of awareness and consciousness and as a result, they experience this mental initiation into the new and unfamiliar territory. Does this change anything for you? — Universal Student

No. 'Mental initiation' is not a term or process I recognize. But if you are just saying people see and try new things and orientate themselves in the process, I would argue that it is a rare person who doesn't do this intuitively throughout their life, unless they belong to a very conservative or insular community.

Also, what harm can come of asking these kinds of questions? If a conversation doesn't attract us, we can easily access our freedom to move on to another which speaks to us more deeply. — Universal Student

I never said there was harm. But now you raise it, there are plenty of people I've known across the decades who have disappeared up their own rectums through a process J Krishnamurti describes as 'analysis paralysis'. Self-reflection can become compulsive and end up in ceaseless inaction and solemn festering. There is also a lot of explicit and implicit status seeking bound up in the self-reflection movement as people jostle to prove their innate sensitivities and higher awareness to others and themselves.

For some reason, none of your tags of my name show up in my "Mentions" page. If I don't respond to a comment of yours, that may be why. — T Clark

Same here.

I'm also keen on paying attention.

I never said there was harm. But now you raise it, there are plenty of people I've known across the decades who have disappeared up their own rectums through a process J Krishnamurti describes as 'analysis paralysis'. Self-refection can become compulsive and end up in ceaseless inaction and solemn festering. There is also a lot of explicit and implicit status seeking bound up in the self-reflection movement as people jostle to prove their innate sensitivities and higher awareness to others and themselves. — Tom Storm

A grounding reply.

If you don't think that these sorts of questions matter very much, why are you allowing this discussion to take up space within your mind? — Universal Student

I think it's pretty important to explore and talk about the things you don't believe in, don't you? I get a lot from hearing what others believe and why. :wink:

I think it's pretty important to explore and talk about the things you don't believe in, don't you? I get a lot from hearing what others believe and why. :wink: — Tom Storm

I do! I like to challenge my own ideas and concepts while seeing where others are coming from. I think that it is arrogant to be unwilling to do so.

I think that it is arrogant to be unwilling to do so. — Universal Student

There could also be people who may be unable to do so. How would we know which is in operation?

↪Pantagruel
Could be. Just as mistakes are often the necessary path to success. — Tom Storm

When you lose, you win.

There could also be people who may be unable to do so. How would we know which is in operation? — Tom Storm

I don't know.

If arrogance is a kind of developmental barrier to the ability and therefore willingness, then are they really distinguishable?

In which case, perhaps I should rephrase as, "it is arrogant not to do so", and omit the "unwilling" bit.

To develop, we need to have or be shown skills; to identify moods, their causes, the tools to manage any problems. Understanding ourselves and others, to relate better is vital for holistic wellbeingness. — Amity

Strongly agreed.

:sparkle:

Take care and thank you, again :clap: — Amity

Likewise!

Perhaps. Just asking.

a kind of developmental barrier to the ability — Universal Student

Is there hierarchical thinking predicated in this construction? You've stated that you privileged self-awareness/journeys of personal transformation, so it would follow that someone who does not is developmentally challenged, right? What if they are not? What if they simply do not share your perspective. Does this suggest a lesser being?

I'll grant you that one of the most fascinating things about people are the intricate pathways they take to getting in their own way.

This is one of several passages that say something similar - knowledge leads to artificiality - a false sense of self. I've had arguments about this before. Lao Tzu can't possibly mean that knowledge is bad, but I think he means just that. A release from knowledge and surrender to experience is what self-awareness is for me. — T Clark

Perhaps knowledge that is overly identified with, held fast to and solitary instead of used wisely as an aspect the whole navigation process through life is the danger?

An idolization of knowledge, if you will.

Knowledge can be passed along and shared with others like a torch and we can light the way through mutual learning but we can not bring our knowledge with us when we our bodies return to the earth.

Anything can be spoiled when used improperly.

We learn through our experiences and like reminds us (if I am understanding his perspective correctly), overly analyzing them instead of just allowing them to shape us can perhaps lead us away from being in harmony with the Tao.

Is there hierarchical thinking predicated in this construction? You've stated that you privileged self-awareness/journeys of personal transformation, so it would follow that someone who does not is developmentally challenged, right? What if they are not? What if they simply do not share your perspective. Does this suggest a lesser being?

I'll grant you that one of the most fascinating things about people are the intricate pathways they take to getting in their own way. — Tom Storm

Certainly not!

When I speak of a developmental barrier, I don't mean in the way of intellect.

I think that there are different types of development and that in each unique unraveling of experiences, we have a different view and way that we learn. Albeit with enough similarities that humans can communicate and have conversations and form societies.

I don't think that it has anything to do with superior or in-superior, lesser or greater. I think it just is. I think there is a certain amount of acceptance that one can practice when it comes to seeing where someone is at. And being able to do so is tremendously helpful.

I suppose at this point it would be useful to focus also on what a barrier means which is something that I am presently looking at a little more deeply.

Sometimes they are necessary, keeping a natural pace until there is a readiness to move forward in some way.

Other times, they are to keep something in, or out.

To clarify, when I use the word arrogant for example, I do not mean it as an insult. I do not see it as good or bad, I just see it for what it is. I am pointing to the description itself as being accurate to describe something for the sake of making clear connections in conversation.

I don't mean in the way of intellect. — Universal Student

Though I am not excluding this either. A intellectual developmental arrest could contribute to the conditions for this kind of mentality. As could many other factors.

I'll grant you that one of the most fascinating things about people are the intricate pathways they take to getting in their own way. — Tom Storm

Yes, this is fascinating. I've watched myself do it many times.

Perhaps knowledge that is overly identified with, held fast to and solitary instead of used wisely as an aspect the whole navigation process through life is the danger?

An idolization of knowledge, if you will. — Universal Student

I was an engineer for 30 years. I've got knowledge coming out of my butt. I know lots of things and I take pleasure and satisfaction from that knowledge. I don't see any contradiction between that and the quotations from Lao Tzu. Why not?.... Good question. I'm not sure I have a good answer.

Awareness comes first. I guess it comes down to whether your knowledge makes it easier or harder to be self-aware. That's the best I can do for now. I need to think about it more.