No doubt that the religious are capable to have either far more meaningful or far more successful lives than atheists generally, so in that sense it would be good to believe. Many great poets were "God-intoxicated" - many musicians, philosophers, etc. There were also many leaders, commanders and conquerors who viewed themselves as doing God's will.Even if you could know (per impossibile) that religion is false, and yet you were nonetheless able (per impossibile) to believe that it is true, and to do so would greatly enhance your joy of living, would it then be wrong somehow to believe? — John
But at the same time there's the question of integrity - if you knew something was false, you'd at least lack integrity if you chose to believe it was true. — Agustino
Yes but would you lack integrity? You'd be truthful in your actions. You'll admit you want to believe Y, but can't because you know Y is false, and X is true.Let's say you know X is true but you really want to believe Y. If you believe Y you will not be acting true to the part of you that believes X. On the other hand, if you believe X you will not be acting true to the part of you that wants to believe Y. — John
Well you don't have to agree with someone to find their thinking valuable. I found 180's thinking very valuable, but I rarely agreed with him. He actually agreed with me about one thing related to religion - that God treats human beings like straw dogs :P lolTo be honest I found his thoughts somewhat quirky and interesting, but pretty one-sided, especially when it came to religion. But I also acknowledge that he 'knew his shit', such as it was. — John
Yes but would you lack integrity? You'd be truthful in your actions. You'll admit you want to believe Y, but can't because you know Y is false, and X is true. — Agustino
He actually agreed with me about one thing related to religion - that God treats human beings like straw dogs :P lol — Agustino
Well being inquiring is one thing, but being indecisive is another. I think indecisiveness is a problem - it means not being able to commit despite having (as much information) as possible / reasonable.But is that even possible if we are highly inquiring kinds of persons given to the love of free speculation? On the other hand perhaps integrity consists in holding everything absolutely open. — John
No but he appreciated the Old Testament view of God much more than the New Testament one so to say. A God not interested and largely indifferent to human whims and affairs - just like the God encountered by Job.So, he did secretly believe in God (and not merely Spinoza's God) after all? — John
Well being inquiring is one thing, but being indecisive is another. I think indecisiveness is a problem - it means not being able to commit despite having (as much information) as possible / reasonable. — Agustino
No but he appreciated the Old Testament view of God much more than the New Testament one so to say. A God not interested and largely indifferent to human whims and affairs - just like the God encountered by Job. — Agustino
The God of the New Testament is too. Hell is mentioned more often in the New Testament than in the Old. Many Jewish people don't even have much of an idea of hell. It's a popular idea that the OT is harsh and the NT is loving and kind, but it's not so black and white. The Revelation is likely a lot more brutal for example than anything in the OT.I guess, as always, it is a matter of hermeneutics, but I would say the God of the Old Testament is a jealous God; deeply, perhaps pathologically, interested in human affairs. — John
Check the two osho links above on decisiveness.To be decisive is not necessarily, or perhaps even often, to be wholly committed in the sense I was meaning, though. Decisiveness is often driven merely by practical considerations. — John
Well I think there's a bit of fabrication on the part of Osho there. K. decided to leave R. and not the other way around, but they were engaged at that time. So there was some commitment. There is a lot of speculation as to why K. broke off the engagement (an engagement which HE started).Perhaps K was not prepared to be decisive for merely practical reasons; and was waiting until he could commit himself absolutely. Of course this waiting must have been cruel to R, so out of love for her he had to let her go in the end. — John
Absurdist Atheism
Have a read of this essay. — Agustino
Religious truth is, therefore, a species of practical knowledge. Like swimming, we cannot learn it in the abstract; we have to plunge into the pool and acquire the knack by dedicated practice. Religious doctrines are a product of ritual and ethical observance, and make no sense unless they are accompanied by such spiritual exercises as yoga, prayer, liturgy and a consistently compassionate lifestyle. Skilled practice in these disciplines can lead to intimations of the transcendence we call God, Nirvana, Brahman or Dao. Without such dedicated practice, these concepts remain incoherent, incredible and even absurd. — Karen Armstrong
Ah, but you forgot my favourite 'type' of atheism - serene atheism, in which the problem of God simply... isn't one; in which the only proper orientation to God is sheer indifference, where God's 'existence' or 'non-existence' are not even problems, beneath consideration, a triviality: "A tranquil atheism is a philosophy for which God is not a problem. The non-existence or even the death of God are not problems but rather the conditions one must have already acquired in order to make the true problems surge forth" (Deleuze, Dialogues). Put otherwise: the very idea of a God is a grammatical mistake - it doesn't qualify as a coherent object of serious reflection - either positive or negative. — StreetlightX
I'm sure you've heard of people who have had a sudden change of heart/personality - for example going from completely non-religious (of the militant kind) to religious. Or going from outright thug, gangster and mafia don, to upstanding member of the community. Or going from super-shy, agarophobic house-bound type to super-outgoing, friendly and social. Or from depressive, suicidal, don't wanna live another second, to completely in love with life and full of joy? What do you think accounts for such sudden changes if not a transcendental experience (or what participants would identify as a transcendental experience)?I'm an atheist simply because (1) I was never socialized into religion, and (2) by the time I learned about religious views in any depth, they struck me as completely absurd, and they've never stopped seeming so to me. — Terrapin Station
I wonder what anyone would have against the God of the philosophers. — anonymous66
I'm sure you've heard of people who have had a sudden change of heart/personality - for example going from completely non-religious (of the militant kind) to religious. Or going from outright thug, gangster and mafia don, to upstanding member of the community. Or going from super-shy, agarophobic house-bound type to super-outgoing, friendly and social. Or from depressive, suicidal, don't wanna live another second, to completely in love with life and full of joy? What do you think accounts for such sudden changes if not a transcendental experience (or what participants would identify as a transcendental experience)? — Agustino
— anonymous66I wonder what anyone would have against the God of the philosophers.
- MarinerAtheisms, even serene atheisms, are always phrased as "I don't agree with that". They reject a given linguistic expression.
I find it encouraging that even New Atheists as strident as Richard Dawkins have gone on record as saying they don't have an issue with certain concepts of God... Dawkins admits he is just fine with what he calls a deistic God or the God of the physicist. — anonymous66
If he had a few more lifetimes, or more interest in studying what the major traditions say about God, we could even imagine him saying that he has no problem with the Christian or the Hindu or the Muslim or the Cheyenne (etc. etc.) concept of God. — Mariner
I think the difficulty here is that there are many different paths advocated to getting mystical experiences, so many people don't know what to believe as true. For example, Buddhism advocates meditation, while Christianity advocates prayer and devotion. So the way of accessing mystical insight isn't clear - and for those who have never had any such experiences, they don't even know what mystical insight could refer to.It is also ironic to note that well-established traditions usually give preference to apophatic expressions, i.e., basically agreeing with atheists regarding the shortcomings of language. — Mariner
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