. And how many of those jobs are available to the 6.5B of today's world? I'm not sure how many of the factory workers in Bangladesh can relocate to the head office in New York and take over management of communications. — Vera Mont

Probably the New York managerial job is available to them if they demonstrate their thinking and policies would lead to a larger profit margin for the owner. A capitalist will likely promote those that promise improvement in capital acquisition.

This is however unlikely given the level of education standard in bangledesh. Not impossible for a pure businessman to émerge from that pool but less likely than those with a western business degree.

Automation certainly reduces the need for man power but never completely as machines still need manufacturing, engineering, servicing, disposal/recycling etc. And those Hands made idle by automation will naturally gravitate towards the next task/job/occupation that still requires manual handling/labour.

There are jobs that it doesn't pay/is not financially viable to automate - for example humanitarian occupations that favour human well being/life quality over money-making schemes.

How do you for example automate career guidance councelling? When it is in direct conflict with global automisatiom of all jobs

It basically means I reject the charge of thinking the way the exploiting class wants me to and that I don't consider 'utopian' a bad word. — Vera Mont

If you are actually campaigning and working hard to help make a better human civilisation and someone suggests you are trying to create a utopia and utopia means:

an imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect:

synonyms:
ideal place · paradise · heaven · heaven on earth · Eden · Garden of Eden · Shangri-La · Elysium · the Elysian Fields · Happy Valley · seventh heaven · idyll · nirvana · bliss · Arcadia · Arcady · Erewhon

Then how can you think that such is other than a suggestion that your efforts will fail and that you cannot make a better human civilisation than we have now.

A democratic socialist/humanist administration which implements a resource-based economy.
— universeness

Sounds utopian to me — Vera Mont

You suggested the system I advocate for is utopian. I maintain it is not and it is offered simply as a better way for humans to live. You should withdraw your response above but if you don't want to then I will not insist any further.

Probably the New York managerial job is available to them if they demonstrate their thinking and policies would lead to a larger profit margin for the owner. — Benj96

That's 1 out of 3.5 M unemployed.
The profit margin dictates replacing expensive employees with cheaper ones, more employees with fewer employees, at every step.

If you are actually campaigning and working hard to help make a better human civilisation and someone suggests you are trying to create a utopia and utopia means: — universeness

I spent a lot of my life doing that. At one time, I believed improvement was not merely possible, but that it would continue on beyond me. What I have seen instead is the erosion of much of the social progress my generation brought about. I no longer believe human are capable of sustained progress. I'm not even sure enough of us want it.

You suggested the system I advocate for is utopian. I maintain it is not and it is offered simply as a better way for humans to live. — universeness

Well, good luck, then!

I spent a lot of my life doing that. At one time, I believed improvement was not merely possible, but that it would continue on beyond me. What I have seen instead is the erosion of much of the social progress my generation brought about. I no longer believe human are capable of sustained progress. I'm not even sure enough of us want it. — Vera Mont

So you have become hopeless, that's a shame after all your hard work.
I have not become hopeless, and I am confident that there are billions like me.

Well, good luck, then! — Vera Mont

Gee thanks! You have dropped the battle flag, others will pick it up and drive on, we cannot do otherwise, there are too many in need.

With that said, is it ethical for technological automation top be stunted, in order to preserve jobs (or a healthy job marketplace)?

This is, in my humble opinion, one of the more important dialogues that our modern society needs to be having. In some ways, we already are having this dialogue; not just here, but throughout our cultures. Technology is advancing, and people are beginning to push back. This is a tough one. — Bret Bernhoft

This is a goof question but why do you call it ethical? it has to do what with ethics? It has to do with practicality, with usefulness, with power, with economic reality, but what does it have to do with ethics?

It''s the second thread I see you've started with "is it ethical" and neither one has to do anything with ethics.

Why the obsession with ethics?

It's certainly true there is still a great deal of work to do before we achieve a better global human society.
I think today's youth are up to the task and I agree they will still need all the help they can get.
I don't concur with all of the reasons you cite for why we are where we are now but that's not as important as the fact that you do your best to be part of the solutions and that's about as much as anyone can ask of any individual. — universeness

About having a ways to go before achieving a better global society. That is such a big subject and I believe technology is a big part of that. The "New Age" is a time of high tech, peace, and the end of tranny. Certainly, the internet is a big part of change around the world.

I am also thinking of John Kennedy's Peace Core program.

Volunteers work with youth in communities to promote engagement and active citizenship, including gender awareness, employability, health and HIV/AIDS education, environmental awareness, sports and fitness programs, and information technology.

What Volunteers Do - Peace Corps — Peace Corps

That explanation missed a big one, help with farming. Actually, we have big farm corporations because of research on how to help farmers in poor countries. Unfortunately, that research led to destroying small farmers because the best way to feed the masses is lots of fertilizer and huge farms. In a country like India where many owned small farms the change was devastating. It appears the focus of the Peace Core has changed a lot since the beginning. The new focus is social engineering which was not in the original program.

That social engineering is part of education in the US and this should not happen without a lot of social discussion which brings us to the benefit of the internet.

Hum, what should the family look like in the New Age?

This has too much personal depth in it for me to accurately unpackage. I can run it around in my head, but I am sure that whatever interpretations I come up with will not match your intent closely enough.
You would need to explain your logic and the emotional drivers behind the imagery you invoke.
If you simply mean you now feel you are too old to be an effective warrior in your quest for a better world, then you would be better having a PM exchange with Athena on that stuff as you could probably both be a support for each other imo. I am 58, I don't know how I will feel about fighting the good fight, when I am a lot older. That's if I ever reach 'a lot older.' — universeness

I studied gerontology at the U of O and as I age, I have a better understanding of what I suppose to learn. From both angles (book learning and experience) I would say as we age our focus is increasingly on the young. Of course, that is not true of everyone, :lol: pain can greatly narrow our vision, or some never did much thinking as they went through life. However, those who thought their way through life, are even more valuable in their later years.

There was fear that a growing older population would be selfish and use their political power to benefit themselves. That is not what I have seen because the closest we can get to immortality is what we leave for the young. The greatest heartache of the people I know is the young not listening to their words of experience and they are struggling to hold their tongues. However, we can become politically active. We can testify at public hearings on all levels of government. We can join organizations that are doing the work we want to be done.

10 Most Popular Fraternal Club Organizations https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/10-most-popular-fraternal-club-organizations-saulino-cpcu-rplu

The Older Americans Act is all about keeping us socially connected and involved. That Act entitles us to decent housing, transportation, and continuing education and gave us nutrition sites and senior centers. :lol: Because of the fear of what we will do with our united power, we can't use our senior centers for political purposes. But I must stress our entitlements are to maintain us as contributing members of society.

This is a goof question but why do you call it ethical? it has to do what with ethics? It has to do with practicality, with usefulness, with power, with economic reality, but what does it have to do with ethics?

It''s the second thread I see you've started with "is it ethical" and neither one has to do anything with ethics.

Why the obsession with ethics? — god must be atheist

I like the challenge of trying to answer your question.

I begin with a definition of ethics "moral principles that govern a person's behavior or the conducting of an activity."

A moral principle of democracy is equality and while at first technology greatly increased our equality, at the stage it is now, it is making us unequal and increasingly marginalizing people who can not keep up with the technology. For this reason, different levels of government have worked to provide low-income people with the ability to use the internet. The disparity between the advantaged and disadvantaged became obvious during the pandemic and the need to home-school. And it is so much more than this!

Not everyone has a college-level IQ and Head Start programs have not been the equalizer we hoped they would be. The 1958 National Defense Education Act lead to focusing education on those who are headed for college, and those not headed for college have been cheated out of the education that would benefit them. And worse, increasingly employment requires those very high degrees and there are fewer jobs for those with just an average IQ. A society that supports those with a high IQ and ignores those with just an average IQ is not ethical. Marginalizing a mass of people tends to lead to rebellion. A moral being cause and effect makes disenfranchising and marginalizing people immoral and unethical, right?

Then there are the elderly who are being closed out by technology. I love technology and believe it is vital to the New Age but I hate the use of technology that makes many older people dependent on someone helping them make a doctor's appointment, or complete appointments because of the blankety-blank technology that has replaced receptionists.

Now I can move on to the possibility that everything is breaking down because of reliance on technology that is not working for us. Tools should remain useful to us. Tools should not be taking over our control of the moment and order our behavior.

I spent a lot of my life doing that. At one time, I believed improvement was not merely possible, but that it would continue on beyond me. What I have seen instead is the erosion of much of the social progress my generation brought about. I no longer believe human are capable of sustained progress. I'm not even sure enough of us want it. — Vera Mont

We are in a period of transition and this is not the first time civilizations have been through periods of transition, however, I am very worried about our future and that makes this thread about logical thinking very important.

I am very concerned about what our education for a technological society with unknown values is coming to. I think our faith in what technology will do for us has as many negative effects as religion. I am worried about the family. I think humans need family and the homemaker. Just as doctor's offices and businesses need the receptionist. Technology has disrupted the family order that ordered the whole of society. Eliminating the receptionist is another break in social order that has negative effects. :lol: The receptionist is kind of like a comma in a sentence. It helps make sense of everything.

Bottom line, things are getting better and they are getting worse. Hopefully, as we continue forward, things will be more better than more worse. :lol:

Bottom line, things are getting better and they are getting worse. Hopefully, as we continue forward, things will be more better than more worse. — Athena

Yes, that is hopeful. Meanwhile, the Proud Boys are marching and the glaciers are retreating, entirely oblivious to each other.
All those previous upheavals in human civilization - including, let us not forget, the complete eradication of previous civilizations - were confined to a locality, affecting no more than one continent at a time. The train we've been collectively seeing approach for the past century and done nothing to avoid, is about to crash into the entire globe at once.
My hope is for the post-crash civilization. (even if it's ants)

One aspect of your posts that I find reinforcing is your exemplifications that are happening or have happened in the real world. A lot of posters don't offer many actual exemplifications that they have read about or witnessed in detail. It adds such a lot to posits when good exemplification is included.
As a teacher of 30+ years, before I took early retirement, I don't think I only ever focussed on merely producing trained monkies for the tech world as you seemed to suggest is happening today.
I think there is a great deal of social and moral training/debate/discussion that goes on, at least in Scotland's Secondary Schools. I was involved with a lot of 'link' initiatives with employers and universities such as 'The Glasgow University Ambassador scheme' etc. The morality, ethics, politics, social impact of my field of Computing Science was very much an aspect of what and how I taught the subject, but perhaps it was not as big an aspect as it should and needs to be. There was the enormous pressure of getting through the material, preparation, intermediate testing and reporting, etc etc in preparation for the big final exam. So, there is still a lot of work that needs to be done to get the balance correct. But the pupils I taught seemed to have a higher quality of inputs compared to what I remember receiving or being offered when I was at school.

However, those who thought their way through life, are even more valuable in their later years. — Athena

Absolutely!

That is not what I have seen because the closest we can get to immortality is what we leave for the young. The greatest heartache of the people I know is the young not listening to their words of experience and they are struggling to hold their tongues. — Athena

Again, absolutely true!

However, we can become politically active. We can testify at public hearings on all levels of government. We can join organizations that are doing the work we want to be done. — Athena

YES WE CAN! (Ok I am quoting Obama a little, but he was certainly not the originator of these words, it was probably first uttered in a different language, in some disagreement between two early tribes of homo sapiens) Something like 'nu no cnu' (or no you can't) responded to with YU WU CA! (no translation required)

The Older Americans Act is all about keeping us socially connected and involved. That Act entitles us to decent housing, transportation, and continuing education and gave us nutrition sites and senior centers. :lol: Because of the fear of what we will do with our united power, we can't use our senior centers for political purposes. But I must stress our entitlements are to maintain us as contributing members of society. — Athena

:grin: It would be a site for sore eyes to see all those centers of age and experience rebel into a politcal force that helped smash trumpism and its like, for ever.
As Elvis said:

]Is it ethical for technological automation to be stunted, in order to preserve jobs? — Bret Bernhoft

Until now, the dilemma was presented with the opposite situation: Is it is ethical to fire people because job automation? ("Job automation" being the practice of substituting technology for human labor to perform specific tasks or jobs.) And it made some sense. The same case was presented a few years ago with "human cloning", which also posed an ethical dilemma.

The case though that you are presenting here --which is the opposite of the above, as I said-- is somewhat vague. I personally have a difficulty thinking that stopping or slowing down technology in favor of the human life can be unethical! Because, while firing people poses a problem of survival and well-being, the opposite --i.e. keeping people at their jobs-- supports these two elements.

Now, I can't remember right now a case where technology was stopped or slowed down because of ethics involved, but there must certainly be a few such cases, because, as I said, it makes sense. Technology development in the vast majority of the cases, supports human life in various ways. An in the remaining cases that it does not favor people's lives, as, e.g. in the case of firing people that I mentioned-- it is almost inevitable in our times, to a point that does not poses an ethical problem. As is the case of a company that has to fire a number of people in order to survive itself.

Finally, job automation exists since ever. Technology was always used to replace routine tasks by machines. Remember a time in the very past that people were used to carry messages from one place to another, travelling very long distances? Then, these "human pigeons" or messengers at some point they well replaced by elementary post oppices, as in ancient Rome, using chariots, etc. Then telegraphy was invented and no human was require to transfer messages. And today, we have Facebook's Messenger! :smile:
I don't think that any of these developments created an ethical problem to humans. Rather the opposite. Imagine, if they were stunted in order to preserve those messengers' jobs ...

So, I don't think there's a question of ethics involved here.

With that said, is it ethical for technological automation top be stunted, in order to preserve jobs (or a healthy job marketplace)? — Bret Bernhoft

It certainly could be, I would say. IOW it is not in and of itself ethical, but for some it is heretical to say it could be. It is as if any technological advancement and proliferation is necessarily good or neutral and should be allowed, period. Of course, there are luddite positions, but actually a pure luddite position is extremely, extremely rare. But pure progress positions are pretty common.

Yes, that is hopeful. Meanwhile, the Proud Boys are marching and the glaciers are retreating, entirely oblivious to each other.
All those previous upheavals in human civilization - including, let us not forget, the complete eradication of previous civilizations - were confined to a locality, affecting no more than one continent at a time. The train we've been collectively seeing approach for the past century and done nothing to avoid, is about to crash into the entire globe at once.

My hope is for the post-crash civilization. (even if it's ants) — Vera Mont

How can the post-crash civilization, which is almost 100% guaranteed, have hope without preparing the young for that? All industrial economies depend on oil and that is a finite resource. When it is gone it is gone and economies will crash. What we need is a way of producing energy that does not depend on a finite resource, and lithium is even more finite. Lithium also requires a lot of water and that has become a scarce resource that is getting even harder to come by. Copper is harder to come by. We no longer have copper, silver, and gold in our money because those minerals are now comparably scarce and too expensive. Our coins had real value and that is no longer true. Our coins lasted for centuries and that is no longer true. Thinking what our coins are made of doesn't matter is a mistake. We have to believe a lie to believe it doesn't matter what our coins are made of.

Anyway, education is our only hope. If our young are not prepared for democracy, that is not what they will have after the crash. If the literature for democracy does not survive, as a little of it did survive the fall of Rome, then the future will not carry an awareness of democracy.

If the young are not prepared for democracy they will not have democracy.

One aspect of your posts that I find reinforcing is your exemplifications that are happening or have happened in the real world. A lot of posters don't offer many actual exemplifications that they have read about or witnessed in detail. It adds such a lot to posits when good exemplification is included.
As a teacher of 30+ years, before I took early retirement, I don't think I only ever focussed on merely producing trained monkies for the tech world as you seemed to suggest is happening today.
I think there is a great deal of social and moral training/debate/discussion that goes on, at least in Scotland's Secondary Schools. I was involved with a lot of 'link' initiatives with employers and universities such as 'The Glasgow University Ambassador scheme' etc. The morality, ethics, politics, social impact of my field of Computing Science was very much an aspect of what and how I taught the subject, but perhaps it was not as big an aspect as it should and needs to be. There was the enormous pressure of getting through the material, preparation, intermediate testing and reporting, etc etc in preparation for the big final exam. So, there is still a lot of work that needs to be done to get the balance correct. But the pupils I taught seemed to have a higher quality of inputs compared to what I remember receiving or being offered when I was at school. — universeness

Thank you for your explanation. Teachers generally feel like I am attacking them and not the system. My grandmother was a teacher when it was a very low-wage job with no benefits. She was totally devoted to teaching because her generation believed they were preparing the young for good citizenship and that was essential to having a strong and united democracy. That is why I keep hammering away at the importance of education for democracy. It is a very idealistic understanding of democracy and education.

At the 1917 National Education Association convention, we were preparing for WWI and it was the teacher's job to turn her students into patriotic citizens who understood why our democracy must be defended. One teacher argued schools should be models of democracy and that teachers should have the power and authority to teach as they see fit rather than be under the authority of the administration. Another speaker said we should model Germany's education for technology because of its great war successes and advanced technology. For technological reasons (relatively low technology) our education continued to focus on patriotic citizens until the military technology of the second world war which gave us air warfare and the nuclear bomb.

The US, being a young nation with huge resources, and dominated by Christians, flipped into the German model of education and our industrial background made this more radical and war-focused. In the past it took us at least a year to mobilize for war. Now we can strike and do more damage in 4 hours than any nation could have done in several months. We were known for our resistance to war. Now we believe it is our military might that makes us great and this is the will of God, thanks to Billy Graham and how presidents used him and Christianity to turn us into what we are today.

We decided to prepare our young for a technological society and leave moral training to the church. That was a huge mistake! We went from using the Conceptual Method of education to the Behaviorist Method and the Behaviorist Method is good for training dogs. It does not prepare the young for independent thinking and that is why this thread is so important! There are many reasons for our moral crisis, as has always been so because humans are not born knowing good citizenship. Even in primitive tribes, the young must be taught how to be adults. From tribes to the present we must have a culture to have social control instead of a tyrant and authority over the people. I am saying we prepared our young for Q-anon just as Germany prepared its young for the Nazi party. The Behaviorist Method is good for training dogs. It is not the education people in a democracy must have, and neither is Christianity. Faith in technology or God is not better than faith in what well-educated humans can achieve.

I never saw that Elvis performance. It brings tears to my eyes. All our democratic campaigns should be using that song. He embarrassed the soul of democracy. Our democracy and liberty do not mean doing and saying anything we want whenever we want. Democracy is about achieving arete and the highest morality.

"Arete - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Arete
Arete (Greek: ἀρετή, aretḗ) is a concept in ancient Greek thought that, in its most basic sense, refers to 'excellence' of any kind—especially a person or ..."

That goes with Greek debates about the good life and morality, and the need to expand our consciousness for good moral judgment.

Thank you so much for that Elvis video.

What we need is a way of producing energy that does not depend on a finite resource, — Athena

We have lots of ways - have had for thousands of years: wind, rivers, tides, sun, ground-heat. Not wasting so much of it would be a good start. Maybe making fewer people - but then, weather, its resultant competitions, and the crash , along with the usual war, famine, pestilence, etc. will take out much of the surplus population. And more efficient living arrangements? Cities are already moving underground; that'll help some people survive.
So, yes, there is likely to be a viable remnant of humans - always assuming, which is a big assumption - there is no all-out nuclear war - and they will likely start some kind of human activity. (Probably killing one another over the last clean pond, which they will contaminate in the conflict.)

The Behaviorist Method is good for training dogs. — Athena

No, it isn't!

How can the post-crash civilization, which is almost 100% guaranteed, have hope without preparing the young for that? — Athena

The best way to prepare them is to teach them elementary survival skills: how to find your way home, how to build a fire, where to dig for water, how to build a raft and a lean-to out of wreckage, how to season termite stew, how to avoid pissing off the big guy sitting next to you.
There are some good books, like https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15798335-scatter-adapt-and-remember

We have lots of ways - have had for thousands of years: wind, rivers, tides, sun, ground-heat. Not wasting so much of it would be a good start. Maybe making fewer people - but then, weather, its resultant competitions, and the crash , along with the usual war, famine, pestilence, etc. will take out much of the surplus population. And more efficient living arrangements? Cities are already moving underground; that'll help some people survive.
So, yes, there is likely to be a viable remnant of humans - always assuming, which is a big assumption - there is no all-out nuclear war - and they will likely start some kind of human activity. (Probably killing one another over the last clean pond, which they will contaminate in the conflict.) — Vera Mont

I think if we educated for a better reality our young would be on a path to a better reality, as our literate forefathers were on the path to democracy, instead of being consumed with notions of doom and gloom that robs of the ability to move forward on a positive path. A positive for Christianity is assuring people, God will make everything good again. Well, that is not all good because God did not build Noah's ark and I think life is what we make it, not what a god makes it, but staying positive is very important to working for what could be instead of slipping into despair like the horse in the movie, "The Never Ending Story".

The Behaviorist Method is good for training dogs.
— Athena

No, it isn't!

Excuse me, but can you give me a hint of how you came to know of the Behaviorist Method of education and training dogs? Your flat-out denial of professional dog trainers using the Behaviorist Method to train dogs is a shock to me. It is as shocking to me as denying the sunrise begins in the east. We might add commercials and political campaigns are also based on the behaviorist understanding of our behavior. Ring the bell and we rush to buy the item that we might be able to buy in the future. Shocks us with the bad behavior of a candidate and we will vote for the opponent. No political discussion or debate is required.

How can the post-crash civilization, which is almost 100% guaranteed, have hope without preparing the young for that?
— Athena

The best way to prepare them is to teach them elementary survival skills: how to find your way home, how to build a fire, where to dig for water, how to build a raft and a lean-to out of wreckage, how to season termite stew, how to avoid pissing off the big guy sitting next to you.
There are some good books, like https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15798335-scatter-adapt-and-remember

:lol: Ever since patriarchy replaced matriarchy women have lived in fear of pissing off the man, but women's liberation has changed that. Now we have a better understanding of what we can achieve when we are united and our children are doing better than they ever have in the history of civilization.

I have survivalist books and I understand very well the threat of tyrants and bullies. That is what we must educate against because things will not be good for humanity if those jerks are the only ones with power.

Thank you so much for that Elvis video. — Athena

:up: Elvis did one or two politically relevant songs, but not many. I think his biggest song containing a vital message about an example of how bad things can get, if we don't pay attention to the nurturing of our global youth is one you will probably know well:

The best way to prepare them is to teach them elementary survival skills: how to find your way home, how to build a fire, where to dig for water, how to build a raft and a lean-to out of wreckage, how to season termite stew, how to avoid pissing off the big guy sitting next to you. — Vera Mont

It's annoying that so many folks who seemed to have fought the good fight when they were younger, can now only offer some survivalist post-apocalyptic, dystopian prediction of the future of humanity. I am sure it makes the nefarious rich and powerful happy, that their efforts have managed to reduce some older more experienced people to such a depressing viewpoint. I think such a viewpoint is a minority one, especially amongst the global youth. I think the young schoolgirls in Iran right now, who are burning their Burkas and jumping on images of the Islamic theists, currently running their country, are answering your attempt to look into your crystal ball darkly at their future. Hopefully, by the time they get to my age or older, they will have found common ground and unison with the youth of America who hate trumpism and evahellicals, and Russian youth who hate Putin, and Chinese youth who hate the fake communist-coloured plutocrats currently in charge there. I could add many other examples of such global youth who despite their differences in culture, tradition, creed, nationality etc, in reality, they have common cause.

I have survivalist books and I understand very well the threat of tyrants and bullies. That is what we must educate against because things will not be good for humanity if those jerks are the only ones with power. — Athena

:clap:

Excuse me, but can you give me a hint of how you came to know of the Behaviorist Method of education and training dogs? — Athena

I know more about dogs than I do about behaviourists, and like them a lot more. Whatever is not a good method for humans, is no good for dogs, either. I'm opposed to treating any sentient being like a machine. Yes, I reject professional dog-trainers, advertising copy-writers and political propagandists who use such Pavlovian methods, all for the same reason.

Ever since patriarchy replaced matriarchy women have lived in fear of pissing off the man, but women's liberation has changed that. — Athena

What's that to do with teaching the young civil bahaviour and manners, in order to keep internal conflict to a minimum? I also question the presumed prevalence of matriarchal system in any age. Not their existence, mind - of course, some existed. Humans have tried pretty much every kind of organization at one time or another. The ones that seem to have worked best were egalitarian and consensus-based, but with some specialized areas of responsibility and jurisdiction, rather than dominated by any group based on sex, class, caste or occupation.

It's annoying that so many folks who seemed to have fought the good fight when they were younger, can now only offer some survivalist post-apocalyptic, dystopian prediction of the future of humanity. — universeness

We lost. I'm sorry that my admission of defeat annoys you.

think such a viewpoint is a minority one, especially amongst the global youth. — universeness

I'm sure you're right.

Hopefully, by the time they get to my age or older, they will have found common ground and unison with the youth of America who hate trumpism and evahellicals, and Russian youth who hate Putin, and Chinese youth who hate the fake communist-coloured plutocrats currently in charge there. — universeness

Hopefully.

We lost. I'm sorry that my admission of defeat annoys you. — Vera Mont

Losing battles is very very different from losing the war. The struggle continues without you.

I'm sure you're right. — Vera Mont

Hopefully. — Vera Mont

I think that deep down, you are screaming and shouting inside your young memory, in support of those Iranian girls Vera. I am not sure your admission of defeat is as final as you project in your typing's. You could still be quite dangerous to those you think, won. You might shove a blunt instrument right up their ..... when they least expect it, if they piss you off enough.

I think that deep down, you are screaming and shouting inside your young memory, in support of those Iranian girls Vera. I am not sure your admission of defeat is as final as you project in your typing's. You could still be quite dangerous to those you think, won. You might shove a blunt instrument right up their ..... when they least expect it, if they piss you off enough. — universeness

I had a friend - he's been dead for some years now, so he can't get into trouble - who planned out his one-man revolution with a 12 guage and a rusty dump-truck. Being more a disciple of MLK than Garibaldi, I just write books.

See, it's not that I stopped being angry; it's just that I'm too proud to take up the currently fashionable position that the contest is valid only if I win. I get flak from conservatives for refusing to acknowledge their POV and more flak from progressives for accepting reality. Of course there will be more battles before the human race packs it in for good - conflict is what we do.

Seems like your friend employed bad tactics. Writing books seems like a better approach than a 12 gauge and a rusty dump truck.

It's not the winning Vera, it's the helping out and the adding your voice and the support in any way you can. Writing often offers a powerful pen, which is indeed often far mightier than a sword or a 12 gauge.
Good for you, that incoming flak has not cowed you completely. You should continue to relish the conflict if you know your cause is just! I just need you to be in support of us humanist/socialist/democrats.
If you do not support such then I am always willing to discuss the tenets with you if you are willing and with no malice aforethought.

Seems like your friend employed bad tactics. Writing books seems like a better approach than a 12 gauge and a rusty dump truck. — universeness

All he ever did about was rant and vote.

I just need you to be in support of us humanist/socialist/democrats. — universeness

Insofar as I am able, in a redneck riding that's just returned the conservative incumbent who, every election cycle, promises to improve education, and and consistently votes against the schools, teachers, public service unions, and for every piece of crap legislation aimed at dismantling the social infrastructure painstakingly built by liberals and socialists. But, hey, they give lovely big tax incentives to developers who build unaffordable 4000 sq ft homes on endangered wetlands or plan to automate away another 500 jobs.... but instead close the factory, take their government subsidy and move to Indochina.

Sounds like you should find a community with viewpoints closer to your own and move there, if you can.
It sounds like you live in and around something which I would consider a pressing enemy camp.

It sounds like you live in and around something which I would consider a pressing enemy camp. — universeness

Which of us doesn't - now?

Well, I live in a small seaside town and there are as many here who I have common political, social and economic ground with. Perhaps even a majority. If I go out for an evening locally and the group I am in, interacts with another group, we normally are similarly minded, not always but enough for me to be contented living here. If that was not the case, I would be seeking out a new place to dwell.
I will not stay in lonely street at the heartbreak hotel.

I will not stay in lonely street at the heartbreak hotel. — universeness

I didn't think it was about personal life-satisfaction. I have no complaint in that department. This is a very good place to live. The air is clean, the corn tall and the hens range free. My neighbours are decent, hard-working, church-going people. And politically so naive that they keep falling for the same lie every four years. The conservatives stroke their prized self-image as righteous individualists and they sign away their power of attorney.