My cat has drawn mental correlations between the sound of certain plastic bags and treats, much like Pavlov's dog with the bell and food. The symbol is the sound, the treats are the symbolized, my cat is the agent capable of drawing correlations between the two. The sound has meaning to the cat, via the cat's own attribution by virtue of drawing correlations. The sound of the bag cannot be said to stand in for the food... — creativesoul
Do we do this again? So, if as you say meaning is a relation between things, what sort of things is it a relation between? Words and...? — Banno
There's something mysterious about the notion of something being transferred - why think along those lines?
Why not just suppose that we learn the use? — Banno
Counting, and meaning, are the action; number, and language, the tool. — Banno
...you referred to the sound as symbolic; so I thought you were arguing that meaning in some purported 'complete' sense (not understanding in the linguistic sense, obviously) is present in your cat's 'reading' of the sound as symbol. As I said, otherwise, you are not arguing anything that anyone would disagree with, I think.
It would be much more accurate to say that not all meaning is social. — creativesoul
Meaning is not the sort of thing that can be coherently said to have a location. — creativesoul
Meaning is indeed prior to language as it must be — creativesoul
Now, I think we spoke in the language of gesture to each other. But do you think that this sort of gesture is 'prior to language'? — mcdoodle
In my view it's rather incoherent to posit anything that does not have a location.
"Inside the head" is most certainly sufficient for meaning.
It looks like we have very different views.
Just depends on how loosely we're willing to define "language," doesn't it? — Terrapin Station
There is a relationship between a mother and child. — creativesoul
What counts as an example of meaning? — creativesoul
I'm late to this party, I was out enjoying myself. One thing that happened earlier today was, I was watching a bunch of children and their carers play in a pavement set of fountains, soaking in the heat. One infant in a push chair, aged about 1, was eating an ice cream. I smiled, she smiled back. I mimed munching, a couple of times. She pushed forward in her seat and offered me the ice-cream. I held my hands up in genial refusal.
Now, I think we spoke in the language of gesture to each other. But do you think that this sort of gesture is 'prior to language'?
There are a lot of relations between mothers and children. If you're talking about the biological parent relation, the location is in the mother's womb initially (and we can peg that location to 21 Main Street at a particular time, and then follow it as the mother moves around), then it's where the child exits the womb, etc.
What counts as an example of meaning?
An individual making a particular kind of signifier/signified mental association.
Now, I think we spoke in the language of gesture to each other. But do you think that this sort of gesture is 'prior to language'? — mcdoodle
The biological parent relation no longer exists in the womb once the child is born. It is located wherever the child is afterwards? — creativesoul
Are all elements of the association located inside the head? — creativesoul
Am I using language here? Is she? You see the problem with the conventional requirement? — creativesoul
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