It seems for most it's far more important to be wearing the right badge than it is taking any steps that might demonstrably be shown to actually yield progress in the real world. — Isaac

:up:

I see cosplay in every direction, but I don't deny exceptions.


angel left wing right wing broken wing

Conservative, communist, socialist, fascist, progressive—all collectivist. Besides some variations in rhetoric, it’s hard to see any difference between them in practice. They want power and to tell people how to live their lives. — NOS4A2

Don't forget laissez-faire libertarians (aka "neoliberals" & "Randroids") too.

I find something quite offensive in people who have not been taught critical thinking skills (presumably getting by on the basis of their own superhuman natural talent) suggesting that others (lacking such natural brilliance as themselves) need to be taught these skills. — Isaac

Maybe just the ones whose state governments have forbidden them to read books or study science or learn their own history or ask questions. And I don't mind if it's classist to demand that the children of the working class have education of the same quality as the children of executives and bankers.

Conservative, communist, socialist, fascist, progressive—all collectivist. Besides some variations in rhetoric, it’s hard to see any difference between them in practice. They want power and to tell people how to live their lives. — NOS4A2

That's true. We're all hoping for a chance to tell people how to live their lives. But I still think there is some difference between telling people : "Do what I believe is right or go to jail. " and "Do what you believe is right, as long it's not hurting others."

There is also a difference between leading by example and leading by dictate.

There is a problem wherever you try to force people to believe what you believe. In the same way they cannot force you to abide by their conscience, you cannot force them to abide by yours. You have to convince them. The best way to do that is through an expression, both physical and rhetorical, of your ways. If it is all you dream it to be, it will reveal that to them.

You don’t require force to get others to conform. With leading by example you do not sacrifice any one else’s autonomy on the alter of your own, and history will recognize this before it will recognize some authoritarian.

Feel free to tell, please. Findings? — jorndoe

That would not really be appropriate to this (or perhaps, any) OP. As I've probably made quite plain before, my models relate to narrative building as a post hoc device to draw together otherwise disparate beliefs which arise from behaviour. (behaviour >> belief about the cause of that behaviour >> narrative which puts that belief into context with others). So here I'm interested in what happens when that middle stage is disrupted, when people challenge one of the beliefs, what methods are used to draw it back into the overarching narrative.

It's those methods that I can get good wide-field feeling for in responses here. If social media had been around when I first started out in research, the whole field would be different now, it's a radical shift (but one I'm now too old to take part in).

The 'social structure' I'm referring to is not the sort of structure you appear to be thinking of (which I'd call a social hierarchy), I'm referring here to the literal structure, the bare bones of the way a social media platform works - the anonymity, the permanence of everything that's been said, the freedom to leave (and perhaps return as someone else? - don't know how strict that system is), sock-puppetry (again, not sure how strictly that's enforced)... these are all structural elements of the means of engagement here that offer new tools for this narrative maintenance that's been my bread and butter for these last decades.

Just had to commend the use of Nirvana on a philosophy forum - not an easy task, well played.

Maybe just the ones whose state governments have forbidden them to read books or study science or learn their own history or ask questions. And I don't mind if it's classist to demand that the children of the working class have education of the same quality as the children of executives and bankers. — Vera Mont

It's got nothing to do with differences in education between rich and poor. The rich get a crap education too and then walk into board-room jobs, not because they're well-educated, but because daddy knows the CEO.

The myth of education is just another trope designed to avoid any actual progress for the poor, it just further feeds this ugly lie that the poor are poor because of their own inadequacies. Here, that's tempered (only slightly) by the suggestion that, even though they're poor because they're too stupid to get proper jobs, it's a little bit our fault for not educating them enough, not passing on to them our (presumably divinely supplied) wisdom.

A lot of working class are quite happy being miners, carpenters, mechanics... I worked with some of the ex-miners after the strikes (famous in Britain at least), the stories told weren't about wanting to get out of mining, they were about having mining 'in their blood'. What they wanted was to be paid a decent fucking wage for it.

The pernicious idea behind this whole 'education' movement is that rather than actually paying manual labourers a decent wage and giving them decent working conditions, we can merely provide them with sufficient 'education' to get one of the other jobs where wages and conditions are not a problem.

Perpetuating the Neo-liberal competition trope, work hard, tread on the faces of your fellow community members and you too could be one of these well-paid middle managers, and you too could have the opportunity to screw the workers by cutting their wages and making them work under near-slave conditions.

Education is not the problem. There's already plenty of people educated to the standard required to enter middle management, we don't need any more. There is however, a crisis of skilled plumbers, skilled mechanics, agricultural workers... A crisis which modern education does fuck all to address.

Modern education is nothing more than a tool to give false hope to masses of underpaid over-exploited workers by dangling the carrot of the one middle-management job available which they must all compete, gladiator-like, for.

Children are quite capable of learning what they need to learn for themselves. They need information, practice, and time. Three things they're being robbed of in increasing quantity. They certainly don't need draconian education establishments more concerned with their haircuts and obedience to authority than with an enquiring mind.

Just had to commend the use of Nirvana on a philosophy forum - not an easy task, well played. — Isaac

:up:

If it is all you dream it to be, it will reveal that to them. — NOS4A2

Sounds good. Now, if I could just convince 300,000,000 people to watch what I do....

With leading by example you do not sacrifice any one else’s autonomy on the alter of your own, and history will recognize this before it will recognize some authoritarian. — NOS4A2

That's just what Jesus said, sir!

Children are quite capable of learning what they need to learn for themselves. They need information, practice, and time. — Isaac

I didn't learn to walk by myself. I had a mother to help me stand up, who picked me up when I fell and held my hand when I was unsteady.
I didn't learn to read by myself. I had adults who would read to me, and who gave me books and helped me sound out the little verses.
I didn't learn to write by myself. I had a great big exercise book in which to copy the letter on the board, again and again, until I could form them correctly.
I didn't learn anything by myself: I was surrounded by people who answered when I was curious, and explained patiently when I didn't understand, and questioned what I did understand and paid attention to my concerns. I was surrounded by books and literate people who didn't lie to me.
I was lucky.
I'm happy for a carpenter to be happy in his work, yet I still think he should also be able to enrich his life with whatever interests he has besides. I'm happy if a nurses' aide is happy in her work; I still think she should have a right in engage in the democratic process of her governance on the basis of sound information. And I think they should know what their rights are and have the opportunity to judge who is lying to them. And I think they and their children have a right to a decent school, where they are free to become informed, are given a chance to practice and time to think and not be be massacred by lunatics.
Ah, but that's so utopian....

I didn't learn anything by myself: I was surrounded by people who answered when I was curious, and explained patiently when I didn't understand, and questioned what I did understand and paid attention to my concerns. I was surrounded by books and literate people who didn't lie to me.
I was lucky. — Vera Mont

Indeed you were. None of which is the modus operandi of school and none of which is the 'teaching' of critical thinking skill.

Schools take thirty children force them to sit still, shut up and do as they're told, regurgitate the curriculum without question, and then pointlessly cram the whole thing into their short-term memory for an exam which they will forget five minutes after leaving the hall.

I don't know where this fucking hippy commune you were evidently brought up in was, but it is about as far from an actual school as it is from a coal mine.

I'm happy for a carpenter to be happy in his work, yet I still think he should also be able to enrich his life with whatever interests he has besides. — Vera Mont

What's that got to do with education? Do you think carpenters don't know how to use the internet? Do they need a Liberal to hold their hand whilst they access a library?

I'm happy if a nurses' aide is happy in her work; I still think she should have a right in engage in the democratic process of her governance on the basis of sound information. — Vera Mont

And who is acting as the judge of what information is 'sound'? You? Your friends? Because it's certainly not any sensible measure of academic capability.

I think they should know what their rights are and have the opportunity to judge who is lying to them. — Vera Mont

I don't recall 'rights' lessons. I recall having to glue facts about Romans to a piece of sugar paper to put on the wall. Not sure what that achieved.

not be be massacred by lunatics. — Vera Mont

What the fuck? Where did 'massacre by lunatics' enter into the choices being discussed? We were talking about schooling. The alternative is not-schooling; it's not school or massacre. What sort of insane upbringing did you have!

And who is acting as the judge of what information is 'sound'? — Isaac

Rupert Murdoch, Meredith Koch....

I don't recall 'rights' lessons. — Isaac

They used to call it 'civics'; came in a package with history and geography.

What sort of insane upbringing did you have! — Isaac

An insane middle-class immigrant one: two parents who worked at menial jobs, one younger sibling, a minimum of fucking afaik. Mid-20th century Toronto public schools in working- and lower-middle class neighborhoods; public libraries, where we were conducted as a group and instructed in how to use it. Good teachers. Field trips to museum, botanical garden, science center, symphony. No hippies, no smoking, no assault weapons. One traffic-related death of a fellow student, in Gr 12.

And who is acting as the judge of what information is 'sound'? — Isaac


Rupert Murdoch, Meredith Koch.... — Vera Mont

Seriously? What world are you living in? Which of the 'fact checkers' seek out Rupert Murdoch? Which teaching establishments ask Meredith Koch for an opinion? You're sounding paranoid. Murdoch may have an enormous reach regarding what people read, but no one - absolutely no one - is claiming he has any access to 'the truth', not even him. You may be terrified of the reach that right wing news outlets have, but that's not anywhere near as terrifying as letting the government determine what 'the truth' is.

I don't recall 'rights' lessons. — Isaac


They used to call it 'civics'; came in a package with history and geography. — Vera Mont

More modern schooling than mine then, I imagine. Is there some reason a book couldn't provide the same data you got from those lessons? Was your teacher the sole repository of that knowledge? Are poor kids just too stupid to look it up for themselves on the internet, they need their hands held?

The problem with your (I'm going to generously call it an argument) is that you're not providing any reason why schooling is necessary, only that it is (sometimes) sufficient. I'm sure some children in some schools can turn out just fine, can learn about 'civics' and find a passion for nineteenth century literature (because God knows they won't be exposed to anything else!), but just because they can is not an argument that schools are necessary, or even advisable.

And your personal middle class utopia is not an argument against the charge that focus on 'education' is an insult to workers who just want to be respected for what they actually already do.

And your personal middle class utopia is not an argument against the charge that focus on 'education' is an insult to workers who just want to be respected for what they actually already do. — Isaac

You's one discontented li'l badger! It hardly matters which way you direct the anger, does it? Plenty to go around.

Just one tiny correction. In my 'middle class utopia', my (ex)engineer father worked as an orderly by day and bowling alley janitor by night; sometimes in construction or the lake freighters in the summer; my (ex)architectural draftsman (in those days, they had archaic pronoun usage) mother worked in the tomato cannery and later as a nurses' aid. Yet we had a decent apartment in a safe neighborhood, with reliable, cheap public transit, good schools, parks and libraries. (still no guns.)
Did I mention libraries? That's where the working people find those books from which they're supposed to be learning history and the intricacies of their electoral system - sometime between shifts and looking after their kids. I respect the hell out of those people, but I wish they could have an easier life and a little more security.

(Oh well).

I respect the hell out of those people, but I wish they could have an easier life and a little more security. — Vera Mont

Good. Then perhaps avoid the suggestion that their condition is in any way the result of their own stupidity and simply campaign to give them higher wages and better conditions for the jobs they already do (and do with great skill and knowledge).

Then perhaps, when the working class are well-paid and respected, they might actually vote for the parties which seem to have their interests at heart as a result of their perfectly intelligent and well-informed reasoning.

Then perhaps avoid the suggestion that their condition is in any way the result of their own stupidity and simply campaign to give them higher wages and better conditions for the jobs they already do — Isaac

Indeed. That has never persuaded them to stop voting against their best interest. Ignorance may be blissful - though I doubt it - but it's neither a virtue nor an advantage.

That has never persuaded them to stop voting against their best interest. Ignorance may be blissful - though I doubt it - but it's neither a virtue nor an advantage. — Vera Mont

Wow, you really don't pull punches with your bigotry do you? Now you know what their 'best interests' are better than they do? Have you got any justification for that assumption beyond a grossly insulting assumption that you're smarter than they are?

Wow, you really don't pull punches with your bigotry do you? — Isaac

Of course not. Half-hearted bigotry is worse than no bigotry at all.
I'm not into deifying a whole class of people, and I don't delude myself into believing that magic will happen... if only.

campaign to give them higher wages and better conditions for the jobs they already do — Isaac

What do you think the liberal and socialist parties have been doing?

Lest we forget, Doug Ford’s Tories did the precise opposite four years ago. As promised, they cancelled a planned minimum wage increase — imposing a 26-month freeze on the old hourly rate of $14 an hour, shortchanging hundreds of thousands of working poor.

Mike Harris was premier of Ontario from 1995 to 2002. Prior to the election, he introduced the ‘Common Sense Revolution’, a platform that promised tax cuts and a solution to the deficit. He also pledged to cut funding to social programs, reduce the number of MPPs, deregulate university tuition, and weaken unions with new labour laws

The only voting group that did not vote primarily for the Progressive Conservatives was younger Ontarians just starting their careers with a good education.

Across the world, blue-collar voters ally themselves with the political right – even when it appears to be against their own interests. Is this because such parties often serve up a broader, more satisfying moral menu than the left?

And, yes, they do. They offer scapegoats, security, responsibility, morality and greatness. They always deliver on the scapegoats, and the pricetag is always higher than they 'estimate'.

What do you think the liberal and socialist parties have been doing? — Vera Mont

Mostly telling the working class how stupid and bigoted they are and how they need more 'education' so that they can stop doing/saying such stupid things.

Biden's just removed 15 million form healthcare.

Have I missed some amazing policy the liberal parties have put in place to help the poor?

They offer scapegoats, security, responsibility, morality and greatness. They always deliver on the scapegoats, and the pricetag is always higher than they 'estimate'. — Vera Mont

So because the right wing are bad, no criticism of the left stands?

So because the right wing are bad, no criticism of the left stands? — Isaac

Huh? I have no idea what you're on about. Much earlier in this thread, somebody suggested that public education should include critical thinking - for every student. I then cited a declaration from the Texas legislation opposing critical thinking, because it might encourage youth to question its elders. With a great deal of unnecessary effort, you built that up into a mountain of paranoia, on behalf of a class of people who, I'm willing to bet, didn't elect you their spokesman.
I wonder why.

I wonder why. — Vera Mont

I couldn't possibly say seeing as the whole thing seems to be taking place in your imagination.

Back in the real world. You advocated the teaching of critical thinking, I argued that this was unhelpful since education is only helpful in procuring better jobs (a competitive market) rather than improving the conditions of the jobs they already have. I also suggested it was insulting since it carries the implication that the choices they make are the result of a lack of skill (critical thinking) which you naturally have, but they need teaching.

Back in the real world. You advocated the teaching of critical thinking, I argued that this was unhelpful since education is only helpful in procuring better jobs (a competitive market) rather than improving the conditions of the jobs they already have. — Isaac

I do approve of critical thinking. I approve of reason, mathematics, the scientific method, literature, music and history. I approve of knowledge. I believe in education, libraries, public broadcasting, factual news reportage and the funding of culture for the public. I advocate for all of these things to be equally available to all classes, ages, creeds and genders.
You, apparently, believe that the daughter of a janitor should never want to be a psychologist, or the son of a roofer should never be an astrophysicist, or that neither of their parents should take an interest in philosophy or the arts or the workings of their own government, except in the random snatches of unfiltered infobabble they may catch on the internet. You seem to believe that The Workers don't need an intellectual life or aspirations beyond the improving their working condition.

I also suggested it was insulting since it carries the implication that the choices they make are the result of a lack of skill (critical thinking) which you naturally have, but they need teaching.

You didn't merely suggest it. You made it up out thin air. Even after I explained at length that i don't consider any skill 'natural' and that I appreciate the help, instruction and access to information that I enjoyed. And that every child - and now I will extend that to every intelligent creature - needs to be taught how to survive, how to communicate, how to relate to the world. Complex creatures in a complex world need a great deal of learning.
You seem to think this doesn't include blue-collar workers.
And I'm the one insulting them!

tribalism is the main issue — Tom Storm

Tribalism fuels hatred which fuels politics which fuels tribalism which fuels hatred . . . ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

education is only helpful in procuring better jobs — Isaac

Emphasis added.

A bit of a stretch.

Tribalism fuels hatred which fuels politics which fuels tribalism. . .

I suppose it is a matter of where one jumps into the circle. . .

The questions are simple.

1. How did you learn critical thinking skills sufficient for you to vote the 'right' way (in your interests)?
2. Why is this method not available to the working class without formal pedagogy?

You were not taught formal critical thinking skills. So why do the working class need such intervention?

As to...

every child - and now I will extend that to every intelligent creature - needs to be taught how to survive, how to communicate, how to relate to the world. — Vera Mont

Your evidence?

You seem to think this doesn't include blue-collar workers. — Vera Mont

I don't think it includes anyone. No one needs formal education, it's a myth designed to produce compliant little consumers. It stops people thinking because they expect all the information they need to be handed to them, they don't develop enquiring minds, but instead are hewn into mindless cogs.

A bit of a stretch. — Arne

Check the context.

I don't think it includes anyone. No one needs formal education, it's a myth designed to produce compliant little consumers. It stops people thinking because they expect all the information they need to be handed to them, they don't develop enquiring minds, but instead are hewn into mindless cogs. — Isaac

Quite a sweeping generalization!

On the other hand, I agree that the program of mass education for Americans is, indeed, designed to produce compliant citizens. Mass communication also performs this function, instructing people how to satisfy their many artificial wants.

Back to sweeping generalizations. I have a typical formal education - bachelors degree and a masters degree. Quite a bit of the bachelor degree education was good instruction. I liked it. I learned quite a bit. The masters program was a credential generator--not a fraud, but not very good, either.

A lot of what I have learned between graduating from college and retiring, I learned through my own effort. Since retiring, I have learned much more because I now have much more confidence and time to study. But, take me back 55 years and, no, I did not have much context into which to fit what I was being offered.

I have known a few self-taught individuals, and their intellectual accomplishments are impressive. But not everyone has the talent, early on, to guide their own education. I certainly didn't. Most people don't. That's why we "educate".

1. How did you learn critical thinking skills sufficient for you to vote the 'right' way (in your interests)?
2. Why is this method not available to the working class without formal pedagogy? — Isaac

Both have been answered.

You were not taught formal critical thinking skills. So why do the working class need such intervention? — Isaac

I was. And so should everyone, including the working class. Education is not 'intervention'; it is a basic necessity to all intelligent life-forms.
I wouldn't recommend setting a young wolf free in the wild without teaching it how to hunt and how to relate to other wolves. I wouldn't recommend setting up shop as a carpenter, without first learning how to use a saw, an adze and a chisel.
I didn't specify 'formal'; you assumed it. But, yes, I do advocate for safe, clean, respectful and inclusive public schools from kindergarten through college, trade and technical school and university, accessible to all students, at all levels.
I didn't say one word in approval of the current state of public education in the disunited states; I may have implied a few against it. You seem to assume it's the only kind of education in existence or the realm of possibility.
I didn't say a word against improving the working conditions or standard of living for working people; you seem to think having access to education somehow impedes those efforts, rather than enhancing them.
I don't know why you think that, and I hold forth little chance of discovering it.

I don't think it includes anyone. — Isaac

Fine. We disagree.
(But I'm not sure you would happily submit your aortic bypass to a self-thought surgeon.)

tribalism fuels hatred which fuels politics which fuels tribalism which fuels hatred . . . ad nauseum, ad infinitum. — Arne

It may not be such a breathless whirlwind. Tribalism becomes politics and politics can fuel hatred - especially when kerosene is poured over flames of resentment by media corporations who benefit from perpetuating conflicts, like Murdoch.