Can't a guy just be frustrated at being alone? — fdrake

I can relate to a lot of what you say. What disturbed me were the intrusive alien thoughts that I disagreed with, the misogyny in embryo. Maybe you’re saying that that’s just how male frustration manifests itself (in this society etc.), and that this in itself is not indicative of incel tendencies, though it’s probably a necessary condition.

EDIT: I just realized that quoting you out of context like that makes it look a bit like you’re defending incels. Sorry about that :grin:

sincerely — 0 thru 9

I don't doubt your sincerity.

The OP need not comprehensively describe or define incels. — Jamal

Yet usually we try to answer the questions in the OP, right?

And as @Vera Mont said, this is an phenomenon brought by the internet. So it's much more about internet culture and the ability, thanks to the net, of otherwise quite separate individuals having the ability to get together... (like, uh, people who are interested in philosophy).

It doesn’t follow from the fact that “incel” is a word formed from “involuntary celibate” that when we use “incel” we are merely referring to people who are involuntarily celibate tout court. — Jamal

Just like if someone uses the term eco-terrorist, the terrorism doesn't actually have anything to do with ecology or environtalism. The real issue is the "activism" that accepts and uses violence to further it's cause and gain media attention. What the cause is doesn't so make a difference. The violence part is similar and if the cause would be, let's say anti-abortion activists burning down an abortion clinic, it doesn't change things.

Similarly, if someone is a misogynist and uses violence, it isn't important what the reasons are for him to act in this manner. It is the action, using violence etc, which is the main issue and ought to be condemned.

Similarly, if someone is a misogynist and uses violence, it isn't important what the reasons are. It is the action, using violence etc, which is the main issue and ought to be condemned. — ssu

No, it’s not about moralizing, it’s about understanding what is going on. This is explicit in the OP. It is important what the reasons are, because it’s a new movement with its own particular characteristics and causes. This discussion, if it’s good for anything, is about working out what those are.

EDIT: I just realized that quoting you out of context like that makes it look a bit like you’re defending incels. Sorry about that :grin: — Jamal

fdrake incel stan confirmed.

What disturbed me were the intrusive alien thoughts that I disagreed with, the misogyny in embryo. — Jamal

Know the feel bro. "Political is personal" is also in your mind maaan.

Maybe you’re saying that that’s just how male frustration manifests itself (in this society etc.), and that this in itself is not indicative of incel tendencies, though it’s probably a necessary condition. — Jamal

Yes. Necessary but not sufficient. I think "the embryo", as you put it, is a similar mechanism to violent or transgressive intrusive thoughts. Like suddenly wanting to whack the person in front of you in the queue for taking too long. I get the feeling misogynist-lite intrusive thoughts are a bit easier to apply to reality; more seductive; but the violent rage at the queue fucker is definitely very visceral. Maybe such thoughts turn to misogyny when the intrusive thoughts become egosyntonic. When anger becomes justice.

It is important what the reasons are — Jamal

Well, why not then start with the obvious: the internet. The ability there to find your own echo chamber. How public discourse has change because of social media where there is no moderation.

One should look first at the general reasons and look what is similar to other hate groups which don't have anything to do with sexuality.

Well, why not then start with the obvious: the internet. The ability there to find your own echo chamber. How public discourse has change because of social media.

One should look first at the general reasons and look what is similar to other hate groups which don't have anything to do with sexuality. — ssu

I agree, that’s a start. It’s also a form of identity politics, which is another interesting dimension.

Maybe such thoughts turn to misogyny when the intrusive thoughts become egosyntonic. When anger becomes justice. — fdrake

A scary thought. But then … how and when does that happen?

When the person in front in the queue is old and slow, I have ageist-lite thoughts that I never admit to, so it’s quite a good analogy.

It’s also a form of identity politics, which is another interesting dimension. — Jamal

Yes it is.

And as victimhood and being different is so fashionable today, the idea of being an incel isn't so bad, at least in the horrible self-help groups of internet echo chambers.

The OP need not comprehensively describe or define incels, since it’s a pretty well-known subculture notorious for its abusive and sometimes violent misogyny. It’s probably wise to look into it rather than throwing around accusations of wokeness. Even just a quick look at Wikipedia would work: — Jamal

The extent of my knowledge of the subject is Wiki and until this thread the only proto-incel I could think of was Nietzsche (sorry). I don't think they make an appearance in any of the worlds I inhabit. I guess the question I have is, should I be worried about this - it's not like we're short of resentful subcultures already.

Nietzsche could have been an incel, but he wasn’t that boring. It’s partly thanks to him that we can identify this certain kind of resentment (ressentiment) in incels. That’s what he criticized. He is to be admired for making himself into something better (but sometimes worse) than what he was—through his writing. In his real life he remained, probably, involuntarily celibate for the most part. But in his writing he is never mean, resentful, or jealous. He still sounds pretty misogynist sometimes, but from a different direction.

I know a young man who, though definitely not an incel, is now a follower of Andrew Tate and, from the way he talks, has absorbed a lot of his ideas from the “manosphere”. I used to think of him as a friend but his sociopathic and misogynist tendencies made me back away, partly just because they made him so horrible to be with.

He and his online pals are part of a self-reinforcing community in which charismatic sociopaths bewitch the less disturbed men with their strong opinions and their charm.

So I wonder how much crossover there is between incels and the sexually successful misogynist “pick-up artists”. Maybe you can graduate from the former to the latter.

I don’t know if you should be worried, but it’s a nasty thing in our society along with many other nasty things, so it’s probably good to be aware of it.

Thanks. Thoughtful response. :up:

So I wonder how much crossover there is between incels and the sexually successful misogynist “pick-up artists”. Maybe you can graduate from the former to the latter. — Jamal

Not an expert, but I think the pick up artist people sprouted off into the incels. An incel being a pick up artist failure who can't even manipulate women to get laid.

And as victimhood and being different is so fashionable today, the idea of being an incel isn't so bad, at least in the horrible self-help groups of internet echo chambers. — ssu

So the interesting thought here, which I think someone else has expressed in this discussion already, is that what is lacking is shame. In a closely-knit real-world community, one avoids shame at all costs, unless one is out of control. There is a clear distinction between appropriate and inappropriate behaviour. And now, with social fragmentation, this is lacking. Since the community that these young men feel is most important in their lives is made up of remote individuals who are free to ratchet up the extreme opinions without any personal consequences, they never meet the healthy opposition that they would have met in the old-style community of people, most of whom they would not have chosen to associate with.

That’s the traditional (communitarian) conservative critique of modernity and postmodernity, and it has a lot going for it.

I went on some incel forums as research for a short story a few years ago. lf you're not an extreme sexist and misogynist you just won't last in that community. That simply is their culture. This article fits with my experience:

https://medium.com/the-no%C3%B6sphere/i-joined-a-popular-incel-forum-heres-what-they-really-think-of-women-862eda9f2edf

"Plenty of other theories there suggest that it’s not actually possible to rape or sexually assault women since they’re not ‘sentient enough’ to understand it, nor do they feel pain, and even if they do, they enjoy it.
Here’s what some users have to say about this topic:
One reason women seek out and stay with attractive abusive men is because they enjoy being beaten up.
Rape or any kind of sexual violence should not count as a crime because foids are begging for it.
We must take foids by force like the animals they are.
Females don’t care about consent very much; they care about Chadliness and the feelings they get when their instincts detect competitive genes. (…) that’s why females don’t mind going to frat houses where raping and roofing are known to be common."

There's absolutely no reason to have sympathy with "incels" in their online incarnation. It's not the involuntary celibacy that's key to understanding them, it's that they blame women for it and hate them as a result. They are not morally superior to any other hate group and the most charitable thing I can say about anyone who doesn't realise that is that they're misguided and/or ignorant.

They are not morally superior to any other hate group and the most charitable thing I can say about anyone who doesn't realise that is that they're misguided and/or ignorant. — Baden

I agree!

Where I'm coming from in this thread is that I've seen people be called incels online, or in person, when they're blokes frustrated with dating culture. And I'm interested in what creates incels. How do you go from being normal to the resentment pit?

Wasn't aimed at you anyhow bruv. Skimmed through the thread and saw some odd comments that seemed to underplay what's going on so I thought I'd stick my oar in.

There's absolutely no reason to have sympathy with "incels" in their online incarnation — Baden

But there is reason to have sympathy for young men at risk of becoming part of that subculture. Just like Islamic radicalism.

Wasn't aimed at you anyhow bruv. Skimmed through the thread and saw some odd comments that seemed to underplay what's going on so I thought I'd stick my oar in. — Baden

Cheers pal. I'm super sensitised to this because one of my mates lost a lot of their acquaintances because they complained about a bad run of dates, in public, in a frustrated manner. Entitled, resentment, etc. Rumour spread like wildfire.

Agree.

I'm super sensitised to this because one of my mates lost a lot of their acquaintances because they complained about a bad run of dates, in public, in a frustrated manner. Entitled, resentment, etc. Rumour spread like wildfire. — fdrake

They were cancelled?

Not an expert, but I think the pick up artist people sprouted off into the incels. An incel being a pick up artist failure who can't even manipulate women to get laid. — fdrake

But this goes against the idea that we seem to have taken for granted, that misogyny is a result of a lack of success with women. What you’re saying here is that they begin in misogyny.

I guess there's something latent there. Like you and others, I've been through periods without sex and had the common sense to blame myself for it.

They were cancelled? — Jamal

Yes. But IRL. Organising meat space meetups, nowadays, follows Twitter logic. When you do it through a meet ups server. It is scary. It might just be my environment though!

It's political correctness gone mad!

Is it another example of what Adorno referred to as pseudo-activism, where what matters is the badges you wear, the signals you transmit, and the minimal action you take—no matter how useless—according to templates that define your political fashion?

This is why It seems kinda silly to me to consider incels dangerous. Sure they have a pretty toxic community going on, but then they don't seem to have any real social leverage like say the cancel culture who can put that public shame-machine into motion.

Is it another example of what Adorno referred to as pseudo-activism, where what matters is the badges you wear, the signals you transmit, and the minimal action you take—no matter how useless—according to templates that define your political fashion? — Jamal

I think this is approximately true. Though it's also hard to talk in lots of spaces without sounding like a right wing nut job. The reasons being - what you're describing is close to the intended meaning of "virtue signalling", which is seen as a far right canard (it is) which gets used to undermine legitimate activism, undermine even moral disagreements. An act of virtue signalling thus construed makes sense as an attempt to shift the Overton window of public discourse - which is close to the intended meaning of the "culture war" (another canard). I get the impression relatively little of this behaviour happens in grassroots orgs (sample size 1).

Do you see a way to thread the needle here without steering into right wing nut job territory? We were also pretty close when trying to humanise "pre-incels".

guess there's something latent there. Like you and others, I've been through periods without sex and had the common sense to blame myself for it. — Baden

I think any heterosexual male who's being honest will admit to the frustrations, challenges, pressures, and stresses of all sorts with interacting with women.

Some sympathy must lie with those who can't seem to figure it out or who are missing the ingredient for success. The consequences are significant. The difference between being single and having a family is tremendous .

The healthy way to deal with that lack of success is to try harder, seek help from friends and professionals, join social groups and other such things. But many aren't healthy and many lash out.

I can't sympathize with those who victimize others, but I do see a not entirely healthy structure in place to assure greater happiness on the relationship front. Some religious subcultures condemn the secular methods used for mate seeking and present their own, but their methods aren't always exactly wonderful substitutes.

But to the question as to why the incels? It's because our system doesn't assure success for too many people.

From the perspective of a gay man long gone from the dating scene, it does seem like these (mostly young?) straight men have a bad case of self-loathing, which in itself is odd and surprising-- that straight white men would be filled with self-loathing--if that's what it is.

I arrived in the big city gay dating scene with absolutely no preparation, no great social skills, no great assets (looks, height, wealth, etc.) and some liabilities. Still, I managed to figure out how to operate in the 1970s milieu and found partners and mates. There were / are gay men who are self-destructive and self-loathing, alcoholics to boot, who seem similar to incels.

What, other than a tendency toward self-destructive and self-loathing behavior, is keeping these guys from succeeding at least at minimal levels? Are they as inept in their occupational lives as they are in their after-hours lives?

Are they just surprised to discover Thoreau's insight--most men lead lives of quiet desperation--actually applies to them? Or is their problem that their desperation just isn't quiet enough?

A discussion of the contributions of the Christian religion to Enlightenment values and the rights of individuals--especially those of women--seems to me out of place in a thread about incels. It's true, though, that the conduct of many Catholic priests serve as examples of the potentially harmful results of sexual frustration, though primarily to children, not women. So perhaps there is a connection of a sort.

Regardless, I'd be happy to discuss those supposed contributions if anyone cares to do so.