If you repeated the experiment a trillion times, and kept a note of whether you guess was correct or not each time, and I did the same. We would find that I got it correct more than you. By the law of large numbers that would mean the outcome I guessed for was more probable than yours. — PhilosophyRunner
Fair enough, but then a person betting that it did land on heads 100 times in a row will have a greater expected value for their winning (as long as the winnings for heads are greater than 2^100 than for tails). And their position would be the rational one. — PhilosophyRunner
Indeed, not only would their expected value (EV) be positive, but it would be positive because the majority of their individual bets would be winning bets. Michael, it seems, disagrees with the idea of individuating bets in this way. — Pierre-Normand
Dear Professor Elga,
I've read your paper Self-locating belief and the Sleeping Beauty problem and hope you could answer a question I have regarding your argument. You state that "P(T1|T1 or T2) = P(T2|T1 or T2), and hence P(T1) = P(T2)" and by implication state that P(H1|H1 or T1) = P(T1|H1 or T1), and hence P(H1) = P(T1).
However I cannot see in the paper where this inference is justified, as it is not valid a priori.
If I have one red ball in one bag and two numbered blue balls in a second bag, and I pick out a ball at random and show it to you then P(R|R or B1) = P(B1|R or B1) but P(R) = ½ and P(B1) = ¼.
So the (double-)halfer can accept that P(H1|H1 or T1) = P(T1|H1 or T1) but reject your assertion that P(H1) = P(T1) follows. Is there something in your paper that I missed to justify this inference?
Thanks for your time. — Michael
Dear Michael,
Thanks for your interest in this stuff. The form of reasoning I had in mind was the following chain of entailments:
P(X|X or Y) = P(Y|X or Y)
P(X&(X or Y))/P(X or Y) = P(Y&(X or Y))/P(X or Y)
P(X)/P(X or Y) = P(Y)/P(X or Y)
P(X) = P(Y).
I wish you the best with your research. — Elga
I think using frequencies over multiple games to argue for the probability in a single game is a non sequitur. — Michael
Indeed, not only would their expected value (EV) be positive, but it would be positive because the majority of their individual bets would be winning bets. Michael, it seems, disagrees with the idea of individuating bets in this way. However, this resistance appears to stem from an unwillingness to assign probabilities to the possible involvement of epistemic agents in specific kinds of events. Instead, like sime, Michael prefers to attribute probabilities to the propensities of objects being realized as seen from a detached, God's-eye-view perspective. — Pierre-Normand
Using frequencies over multiple games to argue for the probabilities in a single game is a fundamental way probabilities are calculated. — PhilosophyRunner
No. That I get to see something twice doesn't mean that I'm twice as likely to see it. It just means I get to see it twice. — Michael
A given seeing of it is twice as likely to be tails. — PhilosophyRunner
The sample space of any room is { H, (T,F), (T,S) }
where F and S refer to First Stay and Second Stay, respectively
with probability measure
M(H) = 1/2
M(T,F) = 1/4
M(T,S) = 1/4
(a consequence of your assumed prior probabilities )
Define a variable indicating the stay
Stay (H) = First
Stay (T,F) = First
Stay (T,S) = Second
P(Stay = First) = M (H) + M(T,F) = 3/4
P(Stay = Second) = 1/4 — sime
I disagree with the step from "the majority of winning bets are tails bets" to "tails is more probable". — Michael
If I have one red ball in one bag and two numbered blue balls in a second bag, and I pick out a ball at random and show it to you then P(R|R or B1) = P(B1|R or B1) but P(R) = ½ and P(B1) = ¼. — Michael
Does that procedure accurately represent how Sleeping Beauty understands her own epistemic situation when she is being awakened on a day of interview, though? — Pierre-Normand
However, if what you mean is that, from the bettor's perspective and in light of the evidence available to them at the time of betting, the bet (distinguished from other bets within the same experimental run, which from the agent's point of view, may or may not exist) is more likely to have been placed in circumstances where the coin landed tails, then I would argue that the inference is indeed warranted. — Pierre-Normand
Although it's true that most interviews follow the coin landing heads 100 times, every single one of those interviews belongs to a single participant, and for each participant the probability that they are that single participant is .
So although it's true that "any given interview is twice as likely to have followed the coin landing heads 100 times" it is false that "my interview is twice as likely to have followed the coin landing heads 100 times"
Elga's argument depends on this inference but he doesn't justify it. — Michael
In that scenario, P(R|R or B1) would be 2/3 and P(B1|R or B1) would be 1/3. — Pierre-Normand
How do you get that? — Michael
I believe this response to PhilosophyRunner addresses this claim. Specifically: [...] — Michael
P(Heads | Mon or Tue) = P(Mon or Tue | Heads) * P(Heads) / P(Mon or Tue)
P(Heads | Mon or Tue) = 1 * 1/2 / 1
P(Heads | Mon or Tue) = 1/2 — Michael
Going back to this for a moment, I think a better way to write this would be:
P(Heads|H1 or T1 or T2) = P(H1 or T1 or T2|Heads) * P(Heads) / P(H1 or T1 or T2)
If Elga is right in saying that P(H1), P(T1), and P(T2) sum to 1 then P(H1 or T1 or T2) = 1.
So P(Heads|H1 or T1 or T2) = 1/2
If he's right when he says that "[you] receiv[e no] new information [but] you have gone from a situation in which you count your own temporal location as irrelevant to the truth of H, to one in which you count your own temporal location as relevant to the truth of H" then it seems correct to say that Sleeping Beauty is just being asked about P(Heads|H1 or T1 or T2). — Michael
Your calculation seems correct, but it doesn't adequately account for the new capacity Jane gains to refer to her own temporal location using an indexical expression when updating her credence. Instead, you've translated her observation ("I am awake today") into an impersonal overview of the entire experiment ("I am scheduled to be awakened either under circumstances H1, T1, or T2"). The credence you've calculated reflects Sleeping Beauty's opinion on the ratio, over many iterations of the experiment, of (1) the number of runs resulting from a heads result, to (2) the total number of experimental runs. Indeed, this ratio is 1/2, but calculating it doesn't require her to consider the knowledge that today falls within the set {H1, T1, T2}. — Pierre-Normand
Combining results, we have that P(H1) = P(T1) = P(T2). Since these credences sum to 1, P(H1)=1/3.
When Sue finds Jane in the assigned room, and assuming she knows the participants and the experimental setup, her prior probabilities would be:
P(Jane awake today) = P(JAT) = 1/2, and P(H) = 1/2
Her updated credence for H is P(H|JAT) = P(JAT|H) * P(H) / P(JAT) = (1/3*1/2) / (1/2) = 1/3
Jane's priors for any random day during the experiment would be exactly the same as Sue's. When Jane is awakened on a day when Sue is assigned to her, Jane has the same information Sue has about herself, and so she can update her credence for H in the same way. She concludes that the probability of this kind of awakening experience, resulting from a heads result, is half as probable, and thus half as frequent, as identical awakening experiences resulting from a tails result. This conclusion doesn't impact the ratio of the frequency of heads-result runs to the total number of experimental runs, which remains at 1/2 from anyone's perspective. — Pierre-Normand
Jane should reason as if she was randomly selected from the set of all participants, because she was (via the coin flip). — Michael
Surely, Jane cannot reasonably say: 'Yes, I see you are right to conclude that the probability of the coin having landed on heads is 1/3, based on the information we share. But my belief is that it's actually 1/2.'" — Pierre-Normand
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