Only Christianity has the person of Jesus Christ, that's why Christianity is a "scandal" to the world.

May I ask you:

but the more I see how disgusting I find some christian writings(even early writings) I am starting to feel that much of it is based on hatred — Beebert

What's disgusting in those writings and what are you referring to?

But once again, when reading early writings from for example the apostlic fathers who lived in the early 2nd century, I find much of their teaching disgusting. — Beebert

What teaching is disgusting?

There, one is forgiven at maximum once. If one fails, one goes to be tortured forever. What kind of vision of God is that? — Beebert

Sure sure, but you have to first figure out what "failing" means, and also what this "eternal torture" refers to.

Then, frankly, if christianity was true, life ought not to be. — Beebert

What's the justification for this claim?

What are your thoughts? — Beebert

No religion apart from Christianity has the person of Jesus Christ. It is the person of Jesus Christ that is the centre of Christianity.

I refer to writings such as The sheperd of Hermas among others. They all take the position that if one falls away after becoming a christian, one is damned. One is not even forgiven if one asks for forgiveness. What kind of a revengeful and vindictive deity is that? A man may be 20 when he becomes a christian, and then falls into sins of lust at the age of 21, and then realizes his mistakes at the age of 22. Then apparently, God is so angry at him that he will never forgive him according to the early christians. This is repulsive. This young man then has nothing to do but to wait for an eternity in an agonizing fire. I find that unacceptable and evil. I understand that you are a christian? Please help me understand some things:

1.What is the relation between predestination and election on the one hand, and God's omnipotence and omniscience on the other? If God foreknew my fate, then why did he create me if my fate is eternal hell?

2. What is eternal hell?

3. Why did Christ speak about an eternal and unforgivable sin without really clarifying what it really is? It has brought tremendous suffering to many in the world.

4. If God foreknew the fall of man, why did he create man? And if he foreknew the damnation of many, why did he create them? To display his wrath? IF that is true, then having children is the most wicked action imaginable. One ought then to prevent life IMO.

In order for you to understand really what my implications are, then I suggest you read this "article" written by Arthur Schopenhauer. He expresses my views better than I can:

https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/religion/chapter6.html

Also, God created us ex nihilo. That is my biggest problem with christianity, because it means "you have no choice in the matter. I create you. Now obey me or be prepared for an eternal fire."

"you have no choice in the matter. I create you. Now obey me or be prepared for an eternal fire." — Beebert

How can you have a choice in creation before you exist in the first place? :s

Jesus or Buddha? Why not both? Why not learn from, and be inspired by both? I would be hesitant to commit to a belief system that forbade me from having impure thoughts about other wise teachers. ;) Look into any wisdom tradition or philosophy which seems to offer something to you. Meditate, study, pray until you feel a peace and wisdom. Then do it some more. If you end up gravitating one way or the other, then that's fine too. Just my two cents.

You don't. But I assure you, that IF I had a choice in the matter and a christian came and explained me the conditions, I would scream and say NO I DON'T WANT THIS.

What is the wish about heaven BTW? Isn't life and all its sufferings here enough? Can't one just accept them? Why would some sort of a judgement where the wicked suffer and the righteous prosper be something that justifies everything? TO me it makes everything worse. And eternal night of sleep without dreams seems like a perfect end of life to me. Where is God justified in he holocaust? If he is behind it, he is evil. Even if he foreknew it he is evil IMO. Where did the jews who were executed go? Heaven or hell? Hell according to most christians. Now, read the article by Schopenhauer if you want. It is a good one. And also, if you can give me some good arguments for christianity, then I am all ears. I listen. I wouldn't mind if it were true as long as God doesn't threaten me with eternal torture

Yes well, I have struggled for over two years with christianity. I first fell for it. But the more I learned about its dogmatic beliefs, about God's character, about his omnipotence and omniscience, about predestination etc. I felt that it repelled me. It wasn't the religion I first seemed to have found anymore. And with the threats of hell hanging in the back of my head, I can't rest. Honestly, I am not an atheist. I don't know what I am. For some reason I believe christianity is true. But the christianity I have learned about from all my reading, if it is true, then life is a hellish nightmare to me. A nightmare that apparently will only get worse after death. Oh my have I found comfort in the writings of Nietzsche!

But I assure you, that IF I had a choice in the matter and a christian came and explained me the conditions, I would scream and say NO I DON'T WANT THIS. — Beebert

You cannot create a valid conditional around a necessarily impossible hypothesis.

Where is God justified in he holocaust? If he is behind it, he is evil. Even if he foreknew it he is evil IMO. — Beebert

A little puny ass human crying about stuff. What did God answer Job? Who do you think you are to question God's decisions? Do you think you have the wisdom required to know whether what God did was good or bad?

Where did the jews who were executed go? Heaven or hell? — Beebert

I'm not sure, only God knows what is in their hearts.

Hell according to most christians. — Beebert

No, this is just false. I don't know what Christians you met, but most Christians would not affirm this.

Now, read the article by Schopenhauer if you want. It is a good one. — Beebert

I will read it in due time, I'm a bit busy at the moment.

I refer to writings such as The sheperd of Hermas among others — Beebert

So is Christian literary writing of the same value as Scripture or Tradition?

They all take the position that if one falls away after becoming a christian, one is damned. One is not even forgiven if one asks for forgiveness. What kind of a revengeful and vindictive diety is that? — Beebert

Quite a vindictive one I'd say, but who told you that they are not forgiven? Scripture makes it clear that the only unforgiveable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and that's not because God cannot forgive it, but rather that someone who has committed it doesn't want to be forgiven anymore.

Then apparently, God is so angry at him that he will never forgive him according to the early christians. This is repulsive. This young man then has nothing to do but to wait for an eternity in an agonizing fire. I find that unacceptable and evil — Beebert

That's false.

What is the relation between predestination and election on the one hand, and God's omnipotence and omniscience on the other? — Beebert

There is no predestination and election.

If God foreknew my fate, then why did he create me if my fate is eternal hell? — Beebert

God may know, but it's still your choice. Hell will not be forced on you. You will take yourself to hell out of your own will. Perhaps you're already doing it by agonising over this.

2. What is eternal hell? — Beebert

According to Eastern Orthodox tradition of which I am a member, eternal hell is the same as eternal heaven - being in the presence of God. So if you hate God, you will experience God's Love as a burning fire. If you love God, you'll experience it as bliss.

https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/spirituality/the-kingdom-of-heaven/heaven-and-hell

3. Why did Christ speak about an eternal and unforgivable sin without really clarifying what it really is? It has brought tremendous suffering to many in the world. — Beebert

He did clarify what it is. It is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which essentially means perceiving the Holy Ghost to be Satan. That's what the Pharisees whom He condemned were doing - they attributed the works of Jesus, to Satan. So if when God speaks to you, you perceive Him as Satan, then you can never be saved, since you'll naturally hate God (thinking that he is Satan) and seek to run away from Him. Basically some people become so twisted by their immorality, that they perceive evil to be good - then nothing can be done to save them.

If God foreknew the fall of man, why did he create man? And if he foreknew the damnation of many, why did he create them? — Beebert

I don't know. But if you have faith in God then you can trust that God had good reason to do it.

I wouldn't mind if it were true as long as God doesn't threaten me with eternal torture — Beebert

God doesn't threaten you, rather you threaten yourself. God is Love - the only question is if you will accept that Love and not run away from it. God won't send you to hell. If you end up there, it will be because you want to be there. For example, if you're in love with immorality, then you won't want to be in Heaven.

Your vision of christianity is far preferable to the one I know of. To answer your questions: Honestly, my interpretation of Job is that God says "You are right". Right in what? That suffering has NO meaning. And the realization of this is the redemption. The "big other" is gone. That is what Job is about. Or as GK Chesterton, a famous catholic author said, when God asked Job who he think he is questioning God about his own suffering etc. what God really says is: "You sit there miserable because of your own suffering? Look around you. I screwed everything up!".

God wanted me to exist. Why? If I don't want to exist, what is God's reason for bringing me into existence if he foreknows that I don't want it. Suicide is condemned in christianity(perhaps not in orthodoxy) as the worst of all sins. That too I can not accept.

The sheperd of Hermas was even considered as canonical scripture by many of the church fathers, such as Irenaeus and Origen. It is contained within The Apostolic Fathers, so it has mighty importance.

You say there is no election and predestination? Well... That seems strange. Because in Scripture I find 25 places that speaks about election, and 5-6 places that talks about predestination. I also find a horrifying text from Paul in Romans 9 where he talks about how God creates some people in order to destroy them. And in Hebrews I find the same teaching as in the Sheperd of Hermas; those who fall away can never be forgiven, even if they want to.

You say the unforgivable sin is to believe that God is evil. Well, then it seems like I have committed it. You say that heaven and hell is the same place where God's love is responded to in different ways. How does that corresponds to scriptural words such as "punishment", "wrath", "vengeance", "retribution" etc? It seems rather to be wishful thinking? I find only a few verses in he bible that says God is love. Generally, the bible seems to say to me: "Love others and I will love you. Believe in Christ's sacrifice, and I will love you wretched sinner. Not because I love you really, but because I love my son. Now. Go love all your neighbours and enemies. If you don't I will cast you in that lake of fire along with your enemies." Even if you would experience God as Satan, why can't you be forgiven? Nothing is supposed to be impossible with God. No, in Scripture it is clear. God doesn't WANT to forgive them. "Shall never be forgiven" it says. Why. Because he is "Guilty of an eternal sin". Falling away in early christianity seems to have been equal to blasphemy against the holy spirit. This seems to me to be mind control and will to power. I fear christianity is true. But I must admit: Nothing in my life has made me so miserable and suicidal as the belief in the Christian God.

You said most christians would NOT agree that non-christians go to hell? hmm... That is not what I have seen. Neither among christians of today nor among the christians in history. If one is honest to what scripture and tradition has taught, the majority of the Jews were cast into a fire. That is a psychotic belief it seems to me. If I walk on the street thinking that the majority of the people there will go to hell (The gate is narrow as Christ says), then I get a panic attack. I was at a psychiatric hospital for a month because of this horrendous belief. It drove me to madness. I can't take it anymore. Show me the goodness of christianity. I can't find it anymore.

Regarding if I have the wisdom to say whether what God did was good or bad: He has given me the capacity to see what I see. And the conclusions I make of what he has revealed to me is that the world is a catastrophic mess.

BTW. Is Jehovah in the old testament the God of Jesus? Of course he is... Do you find the God who slaughtered the Amalekites, who wanted to stone homosexuals and women who had lost their virginity before their wedding to be Love? One really has to twist one's mind in order to say that it seems to me.

And remember... a Revelation without dancing is a revelation not worth having. :D

But seriously though... It is my deepest belief that both Enlightenment and the Holy Spirit are real. More real in some ways than you and I. Longer lasting, if not eternal and infinite. We are mortal but Truth, Beauty, and Goodness are not. It cannot be contained or owned by any religion or philosophy, but the best of either follows the Light, the Force, Love, or whatever name you personally call the highest good. It will guide your steps if you but allow it.

As I said, I believe Christianity might be true. But that is very bad news it seems to me.

(Y) Ok, wish you the best of luck with your search. It is not easy, but the things worth having are often difficult to obtain. The Spirit will guide you on how to interpret and understand the things you read. And perhaps it may help to talk to someone you trust about these things, if you haven't already done so that is. Peace.

Are you a christian?

Which one of these two men do you think brought the best and most honest message? — Beebert

Best? Too vague.

Jesus is the more passionate, but Gautama is the cooler customer.

Most honest?

According to the Gospels, Jesus was sometimes quite evasive (such as whether or not he was King of the Jews), but he was honest in the sense that he could not be intimidated easily.

There is an honesty in both of them having renounced a lot of the things that tend to corrupt people (e.g. wealth).

I agree... I like Jesus except the introduction of eternal hellfire.

I think where you are coming from is that it is uncomfortable to see that God is Just, and not only loving. From the Christian Scripture, we can find that God is perfect, he cannot tolerate sin. In order to be able to accept us sinners, he sent his son, Christ, to take the punishment we deserved so that we may be justified in his sight. As for no forgiveness after the initial acceptance of this, I am not sure where that would be found in the Scripture, but I have not seen it. Those who refuse to accept this salvation condemn themselves; just as a prisoner who refuses to allows someone to pay bail will stay in prison. In the topic of predestination and election, I have not found a clear answer, but right now I think it means that we cannot control the consequences of our actions. We cannot remain unjustified and go to heaven at the same time. I believe that Christianity is true.

What denomination do you belong to? How did you become a christian?

I know God is just. I just don't understand what is just with creating me sick and demanding me to be healthy under the threats of eternal torture. Not just punishment for a few years. Not even punishment for thousands of years. But forever!! For eternity! That is insane. I just can't wrap my head around how that is just when I had NO saying in all this in the first place. Would you mind to read the article by Arthur Schopenhauer and see what you think about it? Because in him I have found a soulmate as to what I find are the problems with Christian dogmas... So perhaps, if you can give me a respond to your opinion on those comments that he makes, perhaps that could clear some things up for me? I too believe christianity is true. But I don't have faith. I don't believe Jesus wants me to be near him. No matter how much scripture says so. Believe me. I have prayed myself insane before. I have screamed to God to please help me to believe. I have begged and pleaded for mercy and forgiveness. But all I feel afterwards is an intense fear. A fear of a wrathful, angry and vengeful judge who hates me because of my filth. But he created me. That makes me angry at him instead. So angry that I soon want to sin willfully and spit in his face. Yes. I am apparently a great blasphemer. But where is he? Why doesn't he care when I beg him to grant me faith?

the more I see how disgusting I find some christian writings (even early writings) I am starting to feel that much of it is based on hatred. — Beebert

It is not at all surprising that a religion that offered a way to eternal life would attract dissenters who thought the gate was way too open. That's just people for you. "That's just too good a deal, must be something wrong with it."

There is a gap (mind the gap!) between the man Jesus and all writings about Jesus, by Christians, and others. How long was the gap? 20 to 80 years at least. Paul's writings were first, but Paul had not met Jesus. The lives of the disciples and those who followed jesus (apart from the 12) are largely unrecorded. The people who wrote about Jesus and assembled the writings that make up the New Testament are separated in time and place from Jesus.

The editors of the NT took what writings they had, related it to oral traditions that existed in the very early church (which congealed after the death of Jesus), and referenced material in the older books of Jewish religion. There are writings that were excluded because they didn't seem appropriate, relevant, or consistent. The book of Revelations, for instance, was a contentious addition (if I remember from past study).

The most reliable material we have about Jesus is in the New Testament. Take it or leave it.

My guess is that most enduring religious movements began in the dark -- that is, no one was taking notes at the time. A man was inspired and preached--Buddha, Confucius, Lao Tse, Jesus... others. People who heard shared and remembered, perhaps for several generations. A religious practice developed around the remembered and shared preaching. Eventually what was remembered was written down, and informal practices became official: A religion emerges.

All that aside, what in the Gospels makes you think Christianity was based on hatred?

[delete]

Are you a christian?

What in the gospels? Not much in the gospels except perhaps the seperation between the sheep and the goats and the casting into eternal fire all those who disobeyed God. Why not just annihilate them? It sort of contradicts the teaching in the sermon on the mount it seems. The sermon of the mount I first found to be the most profound teaching I had ever heard. But it was very much influenced by the Christianity of Dostoevsky. Now afterwards I have learned the Dostoevsky's christian vision wasn't that biblical. But I much much much prefers his vision of christianity to that of traditional dogmatic christianity and even to the christianity I find in the New Testament. Anyway. What more do I find based on hatred? The talking about the elect chosen by God before the foundation of the world... It sort of seems like the writers sometimes wants to revenge the jews. But if you want to speak about what I really find detestable in the New Testament, it is the Revelation of John. That is the most vengeful piece of writing I have ever read. And when I read it, I torn the pages of it to pieces. It destroyed my view of Christ that I had received from Dostoevsky. Other than that, I find not much hatred in the New Testament. I think it is the combination of the teachings there with much of The Old Testament that brings me problems also... And I have more problems with teachers of Christianity like John Chrysostom, Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, Martin Luther, and Jonathan Edwards than with the New Testament itself.

That is my biggest problem with christianity, because it means "you have no choice in the matter. I create you. Now obey me or be prepared for an eternal fire." — Beebert

I think it's a misreading, although a very persuasive and deep-seated one. It comes from generations of Christian preachers, for whom 'God' is the ultimate authority figure, along with the metaphor of 'reward and punishment' which appeals to basic human instincts to instill discipline amongst the congregation - to 'maintain the flock'.

In traditional Buddhism, there is also hell - actually, hells, plural, some hot, some cold, all of them depicted in terms that make Heironymous Bosch paintings look relatively benign. Nobody is 'sent' to those hells by God, because there is no God passing judgement on the 'souls of men'; they go there solely because of what they have done, as a consequence of evil karma. But they go there regardless; not forever, as nothing is forever, but for 'aeons of kalpas', which in Buddhist cosmology, is an unthinkably long duration of time.

I think the whole problem you have is that you understand 'God' as a kind of chief executive officer, the head of the chain of command, the commandant or headmaster, who makes and sends and so on. That is all anthropomorphism in my view. Religious language is often metaphorical, and all of those are metaphors.

Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions...are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies. — Joseph Campbell

I know God is just. I just don't understand what is just with creating me sick and demanding me to be healthy under the threats of eternal torture. Not just punishment for a few years. Not even punishment for thousands of years. But forever!! For eternity! That is insane. I just can't wrap my head around how that is just when I had NO saying in all this in the first place. — Beebert

My feeling about some Christians is that they are more interested in finding a way to assign people to hell than they are to get people into heaven.

The basis of the Final Judgement is in Matthew: "Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me."

That's it. Be merciful to those who are suffering.

Yes and I have been brainwashed into thinking that metaphors are facts and I can't read the bible in another way. But all the "metaphors" for hell are still terrifying, and oh my has it not brought a lot of suffering to the world. Hell is, metaphor or not, eternal and a terrifying place according to scripture. Worse than anything one can imagine.

Yes but take the rest of that passage.

Yes and I have been brainwashed into thinking that metaphors are facts and I can't read the bible in another way. — Beebert

I feel for you. Do know, there are wonderful and compassionate Christian teachers, from many kinds of schools. Have a careful read of this title.

Thank you very much...

I do not belong to any particular denomination, just Christianity and I try to stay with the teachings found in Scripture. It is somewhat of a long story of how I became a Christian. Essentially though, before I realized that I was wrong, I had questions and fears very simiar to yours. I obeyed God on the outside because I did not want to be condenmed. It was a fear, and not the good kind either. Then it occured to me that this was not what was taught in Scripture.
Originally, we were created perfect and had no need of justification. But through one man sin entered the world, and we all became sinners with him, and lost our perfection. God knows that you can never reclaim that perfection, which is why he sent Christ. It was a legal obligation; we sent ourselves to prison, and he offered to pay the price to redeem us. He could not be a god of perfection and justice if he let us run rampant in our lawlessness. You did somewhat have a say in it; if you have never committed a sin that would be different. Have you ever lied or stolen? That is enough to cause us to lack the necessary perfection. We are not condenmed because we refuse to believe that Christ died and resurected, but because we have sinned and refuse to allow him to get you out of it. You chose to separate yourself from God, and he chose to offer a way back.
I completely understand how you feel, I felt the same way. You do not know how many times I was in fear of that God of Justice, and very repentent. But I was trying to get to him through my own works, and not through Christ. I do not alway have a great deal of faith, but it is much stronger now than when I first believed. I also cried out the same cries that you are screaming, and I have found it to be a matter of lack of trust. God doesn't leave us unless we shove him off.
Of the article, it is wrong, but understandable. It makes the assumption that man would have been good, but God forced him to be bad. We choose to sin because we have free will. God cannot be good and bad at the same time.

If hell is an eternal separation from the Being of God, then to be completely honest I'd find such an unbeing much more intriguing than any potential heaven. If after I die my being is "condemned" never to be again, then shit, gimme!

Anyhoo...

I think it's worth noting that it's not so much Jesus vs. the Buddha that you're asking after, but rather purported teachings of Jesus vs. purported teachings of the Buddha. Neither of them wrote anything down, so judging exactly what they believed in and taught is pretty speculative. The best we can do is piece together a coherent theosophy, which is exactly what all the many Christian sects have attempted to do. Even Buddhism is quite varied and differing in belief and practice.

That said, I think Jesus, as I've come to understand him, is the more powerful and illuminating figure, though I admit to not having studied the Buddha and Buddhism as closely as Jesus and Christianity.

↪Bitter Crank Are you a christian? — Beebert

I am a baptized, confirmed Christian, though I have spent decades stewing over how much of the Christian creed I can honestly say. I'm 70. The whole business is still very conflicted.

I do believe Jesus was born 9 months after a conventional conception, lived somewhere in Galilee, and at some point was inspired and preached a compelling message to Jews. He probably was crucified because he had become a pain to the local authorities. His literal resurrection from the dead is something of a problem. I am not altogether sure about God, either. Why the uncertainty? Oh, it's the other believers who make faith difficult, don't you know. They say such crazy things, sometimes.

↪Bitter Crank Yes but take the rest of that passage. — Beebert

Edward Schillebeeckx [a Catholic theologian, died in 2009] offers a provocative comment on the Matthean judgment scene: “I believe - and I say this with some hesitation - that at the last judgment perhaps everyone will stand at the right-hand side of the Son of Man: 'Come all you beloved people, blessed of the Father, for despite all your inhumanity, you once gave a glass of water when I was in need. Come!'”