Jeez man, this is vulgar Israeli propaganda and people believe it! Wow, suddenly Hamas has rockets that can destroy entire hospitals.

Just gross.

Thanks for those posts. :up:

I missed the sarcasm. Sorry.

Jeez man, this is vulgar Israeli propaganda and people believe it! Wow, suddenly Hamas has rockets that can destroy entire hospitals. — Manuel

Again, provide your support for your position that Hamas rockets cannot destroy hospitals. Obviously if that were true, then it was the Israelis, but I've not seen any cite that states (1) Hamas rockets lack the destructive power to destroy hospitals or (2) that the Palestinians have argued they lack the ability to destroy hospitals. That is, you're making an argument that has no empirical support and one that not even the Palestinians are making.

There are literally thousands of rockets being fired in a very small space. It would be more surprising if none missed their target than if all did. The question then becomes whether (1) this was an accidental misfiring or (2) whether it was purposeful. It would seem the likelihood of an Israeli intentional targeting of a Palestinian hospital is unlikely, considering the political fallout that would result. It is possible it was an accident by the Israelis. In terms of whether it was accidental or intentional by Hamas, either explanation works, considering their missles are notoriously inaccurate and also it could be intentional considering the political gain they'd derive from it if the Israelis could be blamed.

The point here though is that no one knows what happened and there are equally compelling reasons to believe in theory it was caused by either of the two. Any suggestion that it's clearly one or the other only reveals the bias of the person offering the opinion.

At his point in time, given the lack of investigative evidence,

Any suggestion that it's clearly one or the other only reveals the bias of the person offering the opinion. — Hanover

:100: :up:

The question then becomes whether (1) this was an accidental misfiring or (2) whether it was purposeful. It would seem the likelihood of an Israeli intentional targeting of a Palestinian hospital is unlikely, considering the political fallout that would result. It is possible it was an accident by the Israelis. In terms of whether it was accidental or intentional by Hamas, either explanation works, considering their missles are notoriously inaccurate and also it could be intentional considering the political gain they'd derive from it if the Israelis could be blamed. — Hanover

If it's something that never happened before I would agree. But the extensive documentation provided by human rights agencies in the 2012, 2014, and other Gaza massacres have shown that this is not abnormal behavior for Israel at all. See for instance the Goldstone report.

And also, keep in mind what the Defense Minister, Yoav Gallant, said "We'll change the face of reality in Gaza".

Add to that starving people to death, I don't see how this is in any way accidental. You think they care about PR? If they did, they would let aid in.

And yes, I have not seen a single Hamas rocket ever fired that was that powerful. If it was Hezbollah it would be a different story.

As a side note, this is an excellent source for human rights abuses by Israel on the occupied territories, by an Israeli Human Rights organization, very much worth looking at in general:

https://www.btselem.org/

Oh I get it (the Doppler Effect, if I remember correctly), more high pitched when it's in-coming and more low pitched when out-going. Like with racing cars. Thanks for the effort. — neomac

Something like that. I haven't heard myself incoming artillery fire, only outgoing. But there's there's a difference. Of course the fire that will hit you won't be heard as it's coming supersonic.

how do you know that the video recording was taken with Gaza in the back or Israel in the back? — neomac

I assume it was taken from Gaza as it looks like being taken from the same urban area. And I presume that WSJ make their due diligence on the video.

but from the point of view of someone near the hospital, that missile would be "incoming" regardless of if it said "courtesy of HAMAS" written on it or "IDF", right? — flannel jesus

It was "incoming" either way, regardless of its source — flannel jesus

That hit it, yes. But notice a stray rocket has a different trajectory.

This is to say, both you and ssu throw out accusations that the Israeli account is preposterous, but then when asked for some sort of cite, nothing is provided. — Hanover

Lol. I can make some observations from one video, but naturally that doesn't say much. I haven't seen the Israeli account, but just as @Tzeentch said, there was an usually quick media effort made to make the terrorists responsible for this. And there is a natural motive for this when Biden comes to Israel. As I stated, it's an awkward moment for a President that is in Israel to show solidarity, but then again try to uphold the image of being an mediator.

And this has already taken place.

(CNN) President Joe Biden arrived in Israel Wednesday for one of the most complicated diplomatic trips of his presidency, an extraordinary high-stakes trip to a region gripped by violence, including an explosion at a Gaza City hospital that he said appeared to be done by “the other team.” In his first public remarks on the hospital bombing, Biden explicitly offered Israel – and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu – his support, with wording that labeled Palestinians as others. The moment, and Biden’s off-the-cuff wording, revealed the complex diplomatic balancing act he must navigate.

“I was deeply saddened and outraged by the explosion at the hospital in Gaza yesterday. And based on what I’ve seen, it appears as though it was done by the other team, not you. But there’s a lot of people out there who’re not sure. So we have to overcome a lot of things,” he said.

The president did not elaborate on what evidence led him to that conclusion.

I guess some years from now when the war is over, you'll have more accurate knowledge.

how do you know that the video recording was taken with Gaza in the back or Israel in the back? — neomac

I assume it was taken from Gaza as it looks like being taken from the same urban area. And I presume that WSJ make their due diligence on the video. — ssu

Taken from Gaza and same urban area ok, but I'm wondering about the position of the cameraman: did the cameraman have Israel in the back or in front? Because depending on the orientation of the cameraman and the trajectory one can better guess if the trajectory was in-coming or out-going wrt Gaza.

If it's something that never happened before I would agree. But the extensive documentation provided by human rights agencies in the 2012, 2014, and other Gaza massacres have shown that this is not abnormal behavior for Israel at all. See for instance the Goldstone report. — Manuel

In other words, since it's likely, then it's certain. Impeccable logic.

Yes neomac, that is exactly what I said. Impeccable reading skills.

Yes neomac, that is exactly what I said. Impeccable reading skills. — Manuel

You've learnt well, habibi. Throw the stone and hide the hand, may Allah bless you.

BTW I love the sarcasm of this Egyptian comedian:

The biggest Hamas rockets are, I believe, the Qassam-3. They reportedly hold a 20kg warhead filled with TNT / fertilizer mixture.

That won't bring down a house, let alone an entire hospital. Such rockets are made with area saturation/high volume of fire in mind.

But it's unclear to me what the al-Ahli hospital actually looked like, and whether it collapsed.

A 20kg explosive that probably hovers somewhere between civilian-grade and military-grade will produce a decent boom, but 500 dead + presumably many more wounded sounds extraordinarily high for such an explosion, especially if walls were seperating people from the blast.

At his point in time, given the lack of investigative evidence,
Any suggestion that it's clearly one or the other only reveals the bias of the person offering the opinion.
— Hanover — magritte

:up:

As a side note, this is an excellent source for human rights abuses by Israel on the occupied territories, by an Israeli Human Rights organization, very much worth looking at in general:

https://www.btselem.org/ — Manuel

The shithole countries in the Middle East are terrorist-loving human rights abusers on a scale that makes Israel look like a piker. Israel should take over that whole sorry region.

If it's something that never happened before I would agree. But the extensive documentation provided by human rights agencies in the 2014, 2016 and other Gaza massacres have shown that this is not abnormal behavior for Israel at all. See for instance the Goldstone report. — Manuel

The question was whether there were empirical evidence, not whether you've sorted out what you consider credibility evidence and decided who to believe. If you want to just say you don't trust the Israelis so you think it must have been their doing, that's one thing. But that's not what you've said. You said that Palestine didn't do it because they lack the fire power to do that.

You changed your argument.

If I were engaging in a credibility assessment of your comments, I would be led to the conclusion that you're willing to provide reasons for Israeli misconduct that are not supported by the evidence only to withdraw those arguments when challenged, and then to rely upon other grounds to support your prejudged conclusion that it was the Israelis, meaning I would see your opinions as biased towards what you wanted to conclude anyway. .

A 20kg explosive that probably hovers somewhere between civilian-grade and military-grade will produce a decent boom, but 500 dead + presumably many more wounded sounds extraordinarily high for such an explosion, especially if walls were seperating people from the blast. — Tzeentch

There's an equal chance that your foray into forensic pyrotechnics began about 20 minutes ago and you have no idea what rockets are within the Hamas arsenal, what their explosive power is, and no idea what forces the hospital structure could withstand.

On the other hand, if you were correct, I would expect someone other than the friendly folks at The Philosophy Forum would have arrived at these conclusions, would have presented them somewhere on the great world wide web, and then you could simply provide me a link as opposed to providing me the benefit of your new found expertise.

:100:

There's an equal chance that your foray into forensic pyrotechnics began about 20 minutes ago and you have no idea what rockets are within the Hamas arsenal, what their explosive power is, and no idea what forces the hospital structure could withstand. — Hanover

If you can't tell, that's probably a great indicator it's time for you to sit quietly on the sideline until the 'official report' comes out. :lol:

If I were engaging in a credibility assessment of your comments, I would be led to the conclusion that you're willing to provide reasons for Israeli misconduct that are not supported by the evidence only to withdraw those arguments when challenged, and then to rely upon other grounds to support your prejudged conclusion that it was the Israelis, meaning I would see your opinions as biased towards what you wanted to conclude anyway. . — Hanover

Based on previous actions, which have been widely reported. I can refer you to several books if you want to read the myriad of abuses and crimes committed by Israel, as well as taking a look at the Israeli human rights organization which I posted.

But - maybe when Israel finalizes its report, it will prove that Hamas has firepower, it has not shown through-out this whole war, which is a bit curious.

If such evidence does arise, then I will retract my statement. I have seen no such credible evidence, unless you count the IDF as credible during wartime.

If you see my comments all throughout this thread going back 2 years, I have never hidden whom I think is responsible for the overwhelming majority of the crimes. Which does not mean Hamas hasn't committed horrible atrocities and engages in gross conduct. As does Hezbollah.

I see these groups as reactions to Israeli actions, not as the source of Israel's problem, which is the occupation of stolen land, recognized by the whole word, resolution 242 of the UN.

Based on what I've seen you say, you appear to believe that Israel deserves all the land it occupies. IF that is indeed the case, then there is not much to discuss. If it's not, then we can talk.

From Haaretz:

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Office released a statement saying:

"In light of the overwhelming and vital American support for the war effort and in light of US President Biden's demand for basic humanitarian aid, the reduced cabinet unanimously decided:

1 - Israel will not allow any humanitarian aid from its territory to the Gaza Strip as long as our abductees are not returned.

2 - Israel demands the Red Cross visits to our abductees and is working to mobilize extensive international support for this demand.

3 - In light of President Biden's demand, Israel will not thwart humanitarian supplies from Egypt as long as it is only food, water and medicine for the civilian population located in the southern Gaza Strip or moving there, and as long as these supplies do not reach Hamas. Any supplies that reach Hamas will be thwarted."

Listened to that also while driving. Yet the comedian makes sense, actually. Great how he comments on Ben Shapiro.

If you can't tell, that's probably a great indicator it's time for you to sit quietly on the sideline until the 'official report' comes out. :lol: — Tzeentch

:up: :100:

3 - In light of President Biden's demand, Israel will not thwart humanitarian supplies from Egypt as long as it is only food, water and medicine for the civilian population located in the southern Gaza Strip or moving there, and as long as these supplies do not reach Hamas. Any supplies that reach Hamas will be thwarted." — Manuel

Unfortunately Hamas fighters run also on food and water, like the civilians.

It looks like the "diplomatic effort" will be reduced to some humanitarian effort and that's it. Although 2 million people need a really huge convoy of food etc. to be supported. Something that isn't easy to do in some brief time window before the bombing starts again.

I think the problem is that Bibi cannot now back down what has been said: he has to go into Gaza. At least temporarily to give that hollow declaration that "Hamas has been destroyed".

Indeed, it looks quite complicated. And obviously it will be very hard to tell apart who belongs to Hamas and who is a civilian when the aid comes through.

It could lead to a situation in which Israel closes the border or shoots civilians because there either are Hamas members with the civilians, or if it think there are Hamas members with the civilians.

If he does go into Gaza, I don't see Hezbollah not acting. Maybe Iran too. That would be a disaster.

Based on previous actions, which have been widely reported. I can refer you to several books if you want to read the myriad of abuses and crimes committed by Israel, as well as taking a look at the Israeli human rights organization which I posted. — Manuel

I would only want to read your books if I chose to allow you to divert attention from the question that we're addressing so that you can pretend it wasn't asked.

The question was who blew up the hospital. Your answer was it could not have been the Palestinians because they lack the rocket power to do that. I asked you for a cite to that. You then started telling me about how Israel has a long history of abuse against the Palestinians and you had some books that supported that.

So, back to what we're talking about. What evidence do you have that the bombings could not have been the result of a Hamas weapon due to the fact that Hamas lacks the firepower?

If you tell me, well, the Israealis are always doing bad things to the Palestinians, so it more likely was them, that will not address your statement that it could not have been the Palestinians due to lack of firepower.

And that's what I'm going to keep coming back to because yours is attempt to create empirical evidence from nothing to support your view that it must have been Israel.

That you are an open detractor of Israel, even if justifiably so, doesn't mean you must abandon the truth and misreport objectively verifiable facts. That is the point of my responses. If you want to say you don't believe Israel because they're sons of bitches in your opinion, then just say that, but going down the road of providing what is represented as objective fact when it is not is simply disingenuous.

1 - Israel will not allow any humanitarian aid from its territory to the Gaza Strip as long as our abductees are not returned.

2 - Israel demands the Red Cross visits to our abductees and is working to mobilize extensive international support for this demand.

3 - In light of President Biden's demand, Israel will not thwart humanitarian supplies from Egypt as long as it is only food, water and medicine for the civilian population located in the southern Gaza Strip or moving there, and as long as these supplies do not reach Hamas. Any supplies that reach Hamas will be thwarted." — Manuel

It's better than nothing. If I were a Palestinian in northern Gaza, I think I'd be moving my butt south on foot if necessary. Those who decide to stay put, I don't know what to say. I think that area is about to be the stage for a ground invasion.

So, back to what we're talking about. What evidence do you have that the bombings could not have been the result of a Hamas weapon due to the fact that Hamas lacks the firepower? — Hanover

I have no evidence that Hamas didn't blow up the hospital.

I have no evidence that Hamas did blow up the hospital, based on the missiles they have.

Now the context is important, but you seem to want to downplay it, for lack of "official reports." The context is, there is clear as day evidence that Israel is bombing Gaza to the stone age, without care about who is killed.

I don't know if that "type of evidence" achieves the high standards you demand.

What is interesting is how different news sites report the event. In the absence of conclusive evidence, it is quite an indication of which side they are on, and what effect they want to achieve.

Israel-Hamas war updates: Hundreds killed in Gaza hospital ‘massacre’ - Al Jazeera

Israel-Hamas war: At least 500 people killed in hospital bombing in Gaza, Palestinian officials claim - Sky News

In deadly day for Gaza, hospital strike kills hundreds - Reuters

Hundreds likely dead in Gaza hospital blast, as Israeli blockade cripples medical response -CNN

'They're still collecting the dead': Panic and grief after Gaza hospital blast - BBC


The evidence here, the actual newspaper titles, speak volumes. Notice the words 'strike', 'attack', 'blast', different words suggestive of a missile or bomb strike, and a bomb planted at the site. The attempt to manipulate this one event using different interpretations is a telling indication that much propaganda is in the air. In any case, each group will choose to interpret the event according to their biases, and this helps.

If it is a non-Israeli rocket, then it would only make sense for whoever it was to fire another one at Israel.

Let's see. Could it be a guided rocket that was hijacked and made to change course?

If it hit dead center then it may make the case for a deliberate attack?

Non -guided Hamas rockets have done a pretty good job of avoiding hospitals, and in any case have a 'small' warhead that damages roofs.

Oh and this, reported on RT

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Neranyahu has claimed that “a barrage of rockets was fired by terrorists in Gaza, passing in close proximity” to the building at the time it was hit. He cited military intelligence as indicating that Islamic Jihad, one of the militant groups operating in Gaza, was behind the purported launch

And on CNN:

“An analysis of IDF operational systems indicates that a barrage of rockets was fired by terrorists in Gaza, passing in close proximity to the Al Ahli hospital in Gaza at the time it was hit,” IDF posted to its Telegram account. — CNN

That seems a huge stretch, and is very telling. This was no barrage. If it was one rocket, the warhead was no large enough to create such damage. If rockets were fired in close proximity it would be even more unlikely to hit something close by. Such a clumsy explanation is another piece of circumstantial evidence that could be used to bring the case the Israeli government is lying.

Fact check this:

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/deconstructing-a-lie-how-israel-bombed-al-ahli-hospital-then-changed-its-story-twice/

A peculiar series of tweets by Hananya Naftali, who is (apparently) a member of Bibi's social media team.




And now this tweet:

https://twitter.com/HananyaNaftali/status/1714400598991261966

:chin:


Honest mistake, or did he screw the pooch?

I have no evidence that Hamas did blow up the hospital, based on the missiles they have.

Now the context is important, but you seem to want to downplay it, for lack of "official reports." The context is, there is clear as day evidence that Israel is bombing Gaza to the stone age, without care about who is killed.

I don't know if that "type of evidence" achieves the high standards you demand. — Manuel

I was only responding to your incorrect comment that there was evidence Palestine didn't blow up the hospital, which you acknowledge you don't.

As to whether they are bombing without concern who they kill, I disgree with that.