Yeah, fair enoughAsk me that question again in a couple of millennia — 180 Proof
I already covered that:At any rate, religious books aren't "responsible" for what their misreaders and proselytizers, jihadists and missionaries have done with them. — 180 Proof
I have heard some theists with a personal god belief, say that the 'real' god or 'their god,' can't be held responsible for the lies that have been written by humans, and passed off as the word of god. But even they start to get confused and challenged, when faced with probing questions regarding their personal perceived properties of their god and what should/could follow, based on the properties stated, as measured against common human secular notions of morality. — universeness
Those who make claims inherit the burden of proof. — universeness
To suggest otherwise is folly and irrational. — universeness
My friend, onus probandi applies only to positive claims of fact (about how things are) and not to claims of faith (about how "gods" are).Those who make claims inherit the burden of proof. — universeness
Are you declaring a personal vow of silence Vera? If not then why do you continue to do or say anything if you really believe what you just typed above?Nothing you or I do or say make any difference whatsoever. — Vera Mont
Sure, but there is nothing to stop us from using logic, rationality, and accountability to combat these issues and that is exactly what democratic socialists/ secular humanists / atheists / rational thinkers / logicians, etc, etc do every day and we (which includes you and I[/b] ) can make very significant differences indeed, when we choose to organise and act in common cause.Power and faith, madness and delusion have nothing to do with logic, rationality or accountability. — Vera Mont
I cry as well because everyone seems desperately unhappy, stressed, and pressured.
Lucky are those who have some temporary peace and sanity. (I say temporary because ‘the shit can hit the fan’ at any moment).
Not just adults… even little children.
So if we are starting life under a constant thunderous barrage, education and wisdom have trouble even being heard, let alone being followed. — 0 thru 9
is the position held by the majority of theists. 'God exists,' is a statement they believe to be fact. I am sure you have heard declarations such as 'I know that I know that I know that Jesus Christ is real!' The claim is not 'god the possibility,' it is god the fact!"God exists" is not a claim of fact about how the world is . — 180 Proof
As long as the place does not remind anyone of the Berghof :scream: and I can get there without adding to the problems of climate change :scream:
Do you think we humans could create a guidance book that became as popular or more popular than the bible or the quran, but provided well-chosen 'what if,' scenarios and gave sound, robust, advice on what to do next. Would such a book be too big? Would a knowledge-based electronic hand-held computer system be better? Could a 'ziggy' type device be created to help humans deal with all situations they might face in life :chin: :grin: :lol: — universeness
Homer's epic poems shaped aspects of ancient Greek culture and education, fostering ideals of heroism, glory, and honor.[7] To Plato, Homer was simply the one who "has taught Greece" (τὴν Ἑλλάδα πεπαίδευκεν, tēn Helláda pepaídeuken).[8][9] In Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy, Virgil refers to Homer as "Poet sovereign", king of all poets;[10] in the preface to his translation of the Iliad, Alexander Pope acknowledges that Homer has always been considered the "greatest of poets".[11] From antiquity to the present day, Homeric epics have inspired many famous works of literature, music, art, and film.[12] — Wikipedia
Many theists present their faith that god exists, as fact that god exists.
The burden of proof therefore lies with them.
If their response to a question such as 'do you know for a fact that a god exists?' or 'do you believe with a 100% confidence level that a god exists?' is yes, then they have the burden of proof.
I have watched theists who try to deflect this in debate after debate, many many times with atheists on-line, and they have been trounced, every time they try to reject the burden of proof.
So much so, that I rarely now hear the theist side, reject that onus. They now try to bolster and rehash the poor evidence they think they have, such as Kalam arguments about the universe must have a cause and god is the only one that makes sense or they point to scriptural evidence or personal experience / god encounters or even worse evidence such as NDE's. — universeness
The burden of proof is 100% with them, you have not offered any compelling reason for me to moderate that position in any way, yet. — universeness
I've never heard a believer claim that "god" is one fact among all other facts – and neither have you. — 180 Proof
I agree.I have found everyday Christians find the existence of God be a fact. — Athena
The debate over whether a God exist is futile because of how a Christian sees proof of God every day — Athena
Just not in a senior center where are supposed to be civil with each other. — Athena
Living together successfully based on a foundation of lies and fables is not my idea of wisdom.That is what we are working on here. Religions work because they make people feel good and give them rules for living together successfully. — Athena
*yawn**sigh* — Vera Mont
On the contrary, I have had my successes in convincing some individual theists to reconsider their position and in changing some right-wing political opinions held by individuals. I still know some of them today.It will have no effect on theists or political zealots. — Vera Mont
The burden of proof is 100% with them, you have not offered any compelling reason for me to moderate that position in any way, yet.
— universeness
*sigh*
I didn't ask you??? to moderate anything. — Vera Mont
I assume that was directed at me ..... thanks (if I choose to ignore the intended sarcasm behind it.)Congratulations! — Vera Mont
I assume that was directed at me ..... thanks (if I choose to ignore the intended sarcasm behind it.) — universeness
Let's dispense with "folk beliefs", which are typically used by "New Atheists" as canicatures, and dispute theology (e.g. T. Aquinas, I. Kant, M. Buber, P. Tillich, J-Luc Marion, J. Caputo et all) if you're game. :smirk: — 180 Proof
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