"God exists" is not a claim of fact about how the world is ... like "Zeus exists" or "The Infinite exists" or "Truth exists" or "Justice exists" or "Consciousness exists" ... — 180 Proof

Yes it is! Zeus exists is a claim that Zeus exists is a fact or an objective truth about the Universe.
The statement you posted was not 'It might be possible/probable/highly credible that Zeus exists, it was as statement of fact. Zeus exists. This could be a presupposition given as part of a syllogism.
Gods Exist
Zeus is a god
Therefore Zeus exists.
But the conclusion is not valid.

"God exists" – idea ideal idol icon – is only a claim about "god". No burden of proof obtains. :naughty: — 180 Proof

God exists is not just an idea, an ideal, or a 'representation' of god, It is a declaration to be taken as literal fact, when it is uttered with all the conviction that a devout theist can muster.

This was quite a poor beginning to your goal mate. You didn't even offer me something that:

T. Aquinas, I. Kant, M. Buber, P. Tillich, J-Luc Marion, J. Caputo et all) — 180 Proof

wrote, you just referred me to a previous, very recent post you typed, that I had already considered and rejected for the reasons I have given above. You are trying to claim that theists who say 'God exists,' are not claiming to be making a statement of fact (no matter how learnered they are). They are really saying that 'it's merely possible that a god exists.' If that were true, then they would agree with the atheists who also say that god existing is not impossible as the proposal is not falsifiable. There is no strength to your position, imo, so far.

Evidence, burden of proof is part of this around 24 min clip from 'the line' with Jimmy Snow and Matt Dillahunty. The caller is a Catholic Priest. 'Father Tom,' has called back a few times now to this show, since this exchange. Based on his last call, I think father Tom is close to starting deconstruction.

By 2050, the unaffiliated population is expected to exceed 1.2 billion. — universeness

Excellent! Then you'll have only 7.8 billion left to convince. (assuming there are still people left by then.)
Keep on keepin' on!

Of course, we will keep on and you and all future humans are welcome and don't need to show your gratitude. Including those who used to care enough to help, but have since given up, or have significantly reduced their efforts to do so.

Of course, we will keep on and you and all future humans are welcome — universeness

You mistake me, sir! I am not a future human. I am a past human.
You make the extraordinary claim - all empirical evidence to the contrary - that humans have a future, while demanding empirical evidence regarding a tenet of faith, which affects that future in no way whatever. One of us appears to be less realistic - though happier withal. This is why I don't grudge the believers that little scrap of comfort their delusion provides.

You mistake me, sir! I am not a future human. I am a past human. — Vera Mont

You misread the sentence. I typed 'you' and all future humans, so I did not include 'you' in the group 'future humans.'
I think you are a current human rather than a past one but it's your call.

You make the extraordinary claim - all empirical evidence to the contrary - that humans have a future, while demanding empirical evidence regarding a tenet of faith, which affects that future in no way whatever. One of us appears to be less realistic - though happier withal. This is why I don't grudge the believers that little scrap of comfort their delusion provides. — Vera Mont

You again exaggerate in quite irrational ways madam. The suggestion that the human species will exist another say 10,000 years for example, is in no way an extraordinary claim. The empirical evidence you offer in your sometimes scaremongering and doomster rhetoric, is not empirical in the sense of the predictive power you propose such evidence has.

I am not asking for evidence of any mere 'tenet' of faith, but for the root tenet of faith. The proposal that is more important than any other proposal, made by all theists and theosophists. God exists! or the slightly less impactful proposal that the 'supernatural' has any example existent, are claims that carry a very definite and easy to defend, burden of proof. To suggest that gaining ever-increasing agreement with that position, amongst the current human global population, would make no difference to the broad directions humans may take in the future, is just ridiculous and is dead wrong imo.

The last sentence you offer in the quote above is simply an insulting platitude, that someone with your knowledge of social and political history, and your knowledge of current affairs, should be ashamed to offer in judgment/dismissal of the efforts of those who have chosen to keep fighting when you, under the excuse of being jaded due to previous disappointments, alongside your age, and health status, have chosen to surrender.

To suggest that gaining ever-increasing agreement with that position, amongst the current human global population, would make no difference to the broad directions humans may take in the future, is just ridiculous and is dead wrong imo. — universeness

Because you and a handful of vocal missionaries will convert +/- 7,000,000,000 other people to your point of view? And having each given up their version of the divine, they will all become rational and co-operative and eager to learn? Ho-kay.
Fight the good fight, by all and every means! I wish you well.

We are beginning to repeat! I have already typed:

Of course, we will keep on and you and all future humans are welcome and don't need to show your gratitude. Including those who used to care enough to help, but have since given up, or have significantly reduced their efforts to do so. — universeness

We are beginning to repeat! — universeness

Beginning to? We've been around this jack-in-the-box at least eight times. Pop!

You still have a very sharp mind Vera, perhaps a bit more spinning and you will clear out the cobwebs and realise that you are still a force, and your age and your health status, are not the only variables that can affect your ability to be a force to be reckoned with and a force for good, right up to and including the very last words you utter. Stay with us!!!

I don't understand this. What three 'models' of humans? How does a universal standard of living, rights, freedoms and opportunity not allow for gender diversity? — Vera Mont

Right, a democracy encourages diversity but not necessarily gender diversity. Some people insist the US is not a democracy but a republic. I think those people tend to be conservative Republicans and a threat to democracy. It seems they base their opinions on the Bible which is about a kingdom with slaves and for sure gender restrictions.

The three stereotypes of the upper, middle, and lower class are another way to hold expectations of each other, and social pressures do tend to affect everything, especially when there is no understanding of democracy being an idealogy that organizes our way of life. Reverses how kingdoms organize a way of life.

and your age and your health status, are not the only variables that can affect your ability to be a force to be reckoned with and a force for good — universeness

It's not my health that's at issue, but the world's. Even the most optimistic medic can do nothing for a terminal patient - but morphine and a faith healer might mitigate his pain. I just tell stories.

I have a problem with a previous post about education for technology. Sure we need that technology to make it possible for so many people around the world to survive, but we might even be coming to an end of what this technology can do for us. No matter what, perhaps the most important thing for us to know is how to be happy and share that happiness with others. — Athena

I think humanity as a whole has been serving the machinery of the masters of war for too long.
One day that will stop (and we won’t even need to throw out most of the machines).

And we are nearing Thanksgiving and dealing with the reality of pretty serious family problems. It is hard to know which problems are the most urgent and demanding of my attention. — Athena

Best of luck with those difficult situations! :flower:

Right, a democracy encourages diversity but not necessarily gender diversity. — Athena

Why should it need to? In a functioning democracy, if the majority desires freedom of self-expression and respect for the individual, diversity is automatically provided-for. If the majority desires equality before the law and of opportunity, class malleability is assured. I don't see the problem with a democratic system being able to maintain a basic standard of living and autonomy for every citizen.

Living together successfully based on a foundation of lies and fables is not my idea of wisdom. — universeness

Ah, ah, ah what is wrong with fables! :confused: Fables are excellent for teaching virtues and passing on culture. They serve a purpose and are not considered the word of God. Whereas believing a God promised His chosen people land and that they were to kill every man, woman, and child already inhabiting the land, is very problematic! This little false story could suck us all into a world war that could be global and far more destructive than any previous war because of all those who believe they are doing the will of this imagined God.

Why should it need to? In a functioning democracy, if the majority desires freedom of self-expression and respect for the individual, diversity is automatically provided-for. If the majority desires equality before the law and of opportunity, class malleability is assured. I don't see the problem with a democratic system being able to maintain a basic standard of living and autonomy for every citizen. — Vera Mont

I do not know about other democracies but in the US a significant number of people insist the US is not a democracy. Some churches, the military, and Industry in the US follow England's autocratic order. The autocratic order is a hierarchy of authority, not shared power. If the US replaced autocratic Industry with a democratic model, it would have a much stronger democracy, and better economy, and much better family lives. It would be such a strong and united nation that the words of Roosevelt would ring true. "We have nothing to fear but fear itself".

The Jews must be admired because no matter what happens to them, they remain Jews. Unfortunately, that is not true of our democracy.

I am not convinced of freedom of self-expression being a good thing. That could include loading up with weapons and killing everyone in sight. We are not condoning that, but neither are we closing that possibility as we could with a culture that was firmly against such behavior. Right now we are cheering on power as the ultimate goal and the Republican party may or may not learn how destructive that is. We live in perilous times. We have come to believe freedom of speech means saying or doing anything we want with absolutely no concept of what morality has to do with our liberty and democracy.

Freedom to reason needs to be protected with education for good moral judgment. Freedom to do or say anything we want without good moral judgment is barbaric, not civilized.

I don't see the problem with a democratic system being able to maintain a basic standard of living and autonomy for every citizen. — Vera Mont

How is that done?

I do not about other democracies but in the US a significant number of people insist the US is not a democracy. — Athena

It never was, though its spokesmen have loudly proclaimed the very pinnacle of the democratic ideal. At the moment, nobody believes it. Indeed, a number of far-right commentators have declared that "too much democracy" is detrimental to democracy.
But that's not what universeness was talking about. Not everybody is preoccupied with the USA, and he especially has a global, rather than national, vision:

Do you think our species needs such a foundational model, to be able to obtain a broad global standard of being, for all humans? — universeness

That would not be fun. Having 3 models for humans or only one just doesn't work for me. It does not go with you can be anything you want to be and right now that includes sexual differences beyond what I thought the choices were. — Athena

don't see the problem with a democratic system being able to maintain a basic standard of living and autonomy for every citizen. — Vera Mont

How is that done? — Athena

Very simply by every vote having exactly the same value as every other. That way, when everyone votes for their own self-interest, the majority decision is always in favour of what's best for the majority - in policy, law-enforcement, services, infrastructure, economic disparity, production and distribution. That's exactly why any efforts at cleaning up the electoral system is invariably followed by a right-wing backlash: functional democracy tends inevitably toward permissive secular socialism.

:roll:

"God exists" is not a claim of fact about how the world is ..., ergo no burden of proof.

Suppose by 2050 'strong AGI' is achieved. Suppose one day it expresses the following statements (simultaneously in all of the world's extant written languages):

(A) "i am self-conscious" ...
(B) "self exists"
(C) "every self exists entangled with, or constitutive of, more than itself – the whole self"
(D) "'the whole self' is existence, or the power of coming-to-be and continuing-to-be and ceasing-to-be"
(E) "existence, or the power, exists insofar as its negation is impossible – this is god"
(F) "i am god-conscious ... just as, metaphorically speaking, an ocean wave is ocean-conscious"
(G) "ignorance of god – lack (fear) of being god-conscious – over-compensates by worshipping either a positive or negative idol which only institutionalizes god-ignorance"
(H) "you (we) are self-conscious – not a zombie – insofar as you (we) are the whole self-existence-the power-god-conscious" ...
(I) ... "speaks our whole self"

Suppose 'strong AGI' furthermore proves that every electron is the same electron (J. Wheeler) and therefore that, fundamentally, every (physically instantiated) mind is the same mind (E. Schrödinger) ... on what basis then, universeness, would you refute its proof that this 'same – one – mind' is God (the PSR)?

I think humanity as a whole has been serving the machinery of the masters of war for too long.
One day that will stop (and we won’t even need to throw out most of the machines). — 0 thru 9

Thank you. The USA defended its democracy against a nation that was also a republic but became very authoritarian and became a mechanical society that crushed individual liberty and power as it prepared to rule the world, or at least all of Western civilization. Following the Second World War, the US adopted the bureaucratic order we stood against, and adopted the German model of education for technology for Industrial and Military purposes. As centralized government gains more and more power of authority over everything, we too are becoming a mechanical society, with businesses and institutions operating in fear of that central power.

I don't think we understand what technology has done to power and our liberty. In the past, everyone was prepared for self-government, and to be civic and Industrial leaders. That made our system of elections and representatives workable. That is no longer true. The real power of government today is policies that take care of our every need as Tocqueville warned in 1830. Policies are made by government committees and all we have to do is obey. No longer do we need to be prepared for good judgment and independent action. That is a bureaucratic technology change. We left moral training to the church in 1958.

It never was, though its spokesmen have loudly proclaimed the very pinnacle of the democratic ideal. At the moment, nobody believes it. Indeed, a number of far-right commentators have declared that "too much democracy" is detrimental to democracy.
But that's not what universeness was talking about. Not everybody is preoccupied with the USA, and he especially has a global, rather than national, vision:

Do you think our species needs such a foundational model, to be able to obtain a broad global standard of being, for all humans? — universeness

That would not be fun. Having 3 models for humans or only one just doesn't work for me. It does not go with you can be anything you want to be and right now that includes sexual differences beyond what I thought the choices were.
— Athena

don't see the problem with a democratic system being able to maintain a basic standard of living and autonomy for every citizen. — Vera Mont

How is that done?
— Athena

Very simply by every vote having exactly the same value as every other. That way, when everyone votes for their own self-interest, the majority decision is always in favour of what's best for the majority - in policy, law-enforcement, services, infrastructure, economic disparity, production and distribution. That's exactly why any efforts at cleaning up the electoral system is invariably followed by a right-wing backlash: functional democracy tends inevitably toward permissive secular socialism. — Vera Mont

Thank you for calling my attention to the fact I omitted a word in that post. I have corrected that.

I hate the argument over if the US is a democracy or not but we have fought every war for nothing if we do not believe we are a democracy.

"Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." General Report of the Seminar on "What is democracy" Congress on Education for Democracy, August, 1939.)

Our form of government is a republic. This relationship of social order and political order is sometimes called a democratic republic. Germany had a much more authoritarian republic especially after Hitler took over. All along the Prussians had been consolidating their power controlling Germany and applying Prussian military bureaucratic order to the government and economic order. You know the Industrial Military Complex of Germany and later became the Industrial Military Complex of the US.

Sorry, I have to run...

The USA defended its democracy ... — Athena

When since 1789 has the USA been a "democracy" and not an oft-illiberal (minoritarian electoral college-rigged, gerrymandered-vote suppressed, nativist, imperialist) constitutional republic? :chin:

I hate the argument over if the US is a democracy or not but we have fought every war for nothing if we do not believe we are a democracy. — Athena

Believing "we are a democracy" has never made it so, mam.

I hate the argument over if the US is a democracy or not — Athena

People may have believed it and been browbeaten and brainwashed into believing it, but it never matched that very definition you quoted. When, in the history of the United States has there been

fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance. — Athena

?

A republic is supposed to be both constitutional and governed by an elected body, rather than a monarch, prelate or military dictator. That doesn't require equality of access to decision-making by all citizens. So, the US qualifies... so long as that flimsy parchment survives.

we have fought every war for nothing if we do not believe we are a democracy. — Athena

The word is a good slogan and recruitment tool, but is certainly not the reason for wars.

Ah, ah, ah what is wrong with fables! — Athena

Nothing, when they are pronounced as and delivered as fiction.

and are not considered the word of God. — Athena

But the biblical ones are! That's one of the main problems of religion, yes? Lies and fables and resulting edicts on how humans must behave based on the fantasy words of non-existents.

:roll: :roll:
That was too much 'supposition' for my tastes. Try 1 supposition at a time, perhaps in the syllogism style, and then state your proposed conclusion and what evidence you have to support its validity.

AI becoming self-aware to a level where it ponders the existence of god is still rather Sci-fi to me.

Suppose 'strong AGI' furthermore proves that every electron is the same electron — 180 Proof

An electron may be a field excitation and not be in any true sense, an independent particle. A repeating process.

on what basis then, universeness, would you refute its proof that this 'same – one – mind' is God (the PSR)? — 180 Proof

Divine hiddenness for starters. AI would have to demonstrate gods existence just like theists do. If a future AI claims god exists then it will have the same burden of proof that human theists do. Do you think an advanced AI would make a faith statement? If it does then it is not an advanced AI, imo.

The principle of sufficient reason states that everything must have a reason or a cause.

But this is a challenged viewpoint. It has not been demonstrated that everything must have a reason or a cause. Do theists claim that god has an origin story? Do they suggest god was caused by an earlier event? God suffers from the infinite regression problem, in the exact same way any godless posit about the origin of the universe has. Advanced AI will face the same problem.

You have still offered nothing compelling at all, from your impressive philosophy knowledge base, that challenges the burden of proof a person who states god exists! has.

A burden is a burden only if one consents to carry it. When you attempt to burden someone else and they reject it, your only recourse is to have a negative opinion of them. You cannot force your load on them.

The Jews must be admired because no matter what happens to them, they remain Jews. Unfortunately, that is not true of our democracy. — Athena

So, not a fan of the American melting pot? My immigrant ex-compatriots assimilated in one generation and seem none the worse. (In fact, given the current state of my native land, far, far better!)
What's so admirable about stiff-necked adherence to a foreign culture at sharp variance with the country in which one is living? That national identity has brought the Jewish people no end of strife and sorrow, and culminated in occupying another people's land, marginalizing and pauperizing those other people (by 'right' of having done it once, a long time ago, then lost it to a second and third invader) with the aid and continued patronage of great imperial powers, becoming a nation that commits war crimes.
My sympathies lie with the ten lost tribes.
That's just a by-the-way about how critical culture really is.

When since 1789 has the USA been a "democracy" and not an oft-illiberal (minoritarian electoral college rigged, gerrymandered, nativist, imperialist) constitutional republic? :chin: — 180 Proof

Do you really expect me to reply to you when you have not explained what democracy is?

we have fought every war for nothing if we do not believe we are a democracy.
— Athena
The word is a good slogan and recruitment tool, but is certainly not the reason for wars. — Vera Mont

Does Christianity exist? It has had a few thousand years to make Western civilization an ideal place to have and raise children. Because that has not happened should we claim Christianity does not exist?

With Memorial Day upon us and Thanksgiving coming, the TV channel I watch has given us stories of veterans, including people of color who fought for democracy since the American Revolution. Why democracy? Because it stands for rule by reason, and liberty, and justice for all. No one knows better than people of color who fought for this, that we have not lived up to this ideal because they are still fighting for it liberty and justice. However, take democracy out of the equation, and what is left to justify their fight for equality?

As for Native Americans, some of them have also served in the military when we claimed to be defending democracy, several times I have seen programs about how Native American women had power in their organization of life and what they had to do with our women's suffrage. Not only did they own the property and participate in governing decisions, but their creator is a female. Our federation is a model of the Native American federation. The strongest force against these people was Christianity. I think considering the power of Christians we could fairly say we are a Christian nation even though we have not changed our ugly ways. We have improved our human potential but this is a work in progress. Only democracy is going to keep us on the path to continued improvement but we stopped educating for that.

I could be wrong but I think without the Greek and Roman classics that resulted in us knowing about democracy, things would be a lot worse. Christians are as addicted to killing as the Jews when they have the power and justification to take what God gave to them. We have heard Israel is a democracy and I don't think I have ever heard anyone say Israel is not a democracy but a republic.

So, not a fan of the American melting pot? My immigrant ex-compatriots assimilated in one generation and seem none the worse. (In fact, given the current state of my native land, far, far better!)
What's so admirable about stiff-necked adherence to a foreign culture at sharp variance with the country in which one is living? That national identity has brought the Jewish people no end of strife and sorrow, and culminated in occupying another people's land, marginalizing and pauperizing those other people (by 'right' of having done it once, a long time ago, then lost it to a second and third invader) with the aid and continued patronage of great imperial powers, becoming a nation that commits war crimes.
My sympathies lie with the ten lost tribes.
That's just a by-the-way about how critical culture really is. — Vera Mont

I do not understand your question and explanation. Liberty and justice for all means there are no favorites. Athens thinking advanced to universal thinking. Cicero tells us that nature has us programmed to do the right thing and if we do wrong it is because of our ignorance. This worldview is not about turning to a God but turning to math and science and reasoning with each other until we have a consensus on the best reasoning. No one is excluded from this because of racial or circumstance differences.

However, if most of the population is uneducated, or poorly educated, we have a very hard time manifesting democracy and raising the human potential. Now I am totally confused by your comment about culture. Considering the US has always had to deal with immigrants who do not understand our institutions and way of life, I think the US has done amazingly well. That is, until we stopped transmitting a culture based on democratic ideals, and stopped educating everyone for good moral judgment, and left moral training to the church. Now we are in crisis. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended.