https://www.vox.com/2015/8/10/9118199/public-transportation-subway-buses

More analysis of the situation.

@schopenhauer1
@Wayfarer

Fair enough, LOL. They are my favourite, as will be obvious.

I've yet to drive one, though.

I’ve been reading a history of the German Romantics - Goethe, Fichte, Schelling et al, in the little university town of Jena, which at the time was a thriving intellectual centre. And in their day, they would frequently set out on 30 or 60 mile journeys by foot, staying at inns along the way. There were also coaches but they were, apparently, abominably uncomfortable, crowded and noisy. What Goethe wouldn’t have given for a nice Merc. ;-)

Sorry, but I agree with Queen. I’m in Love With My Car.

The machine of a dream
Such a clean machine
With the pistons a pumpin'
And the hubcaps all gleam

When I'm holding your wheel
All I hear is your gear
With my hand on your grease gun
Ooh, it's like a disease, son

I'm in love with my car
Got a feel for my automobile
Get a grip on my boy-racer Rollbar
Such a thrill when your radials squeal

Told my girl I'd have to forget her
Rather buy me a new carburetor
So, she made tracks, saying
"This is the end now"
"Cars don't talk back"
"They're just four-wheeled friends, now"

When I'm holding your wheel
All I hear is your gear
When I'm cruisin' in overdrive
Don't have to listen
To no run-of-the-mill talk jive

I'm in love with my car
(In love with my car, in love with my car)
Got a feel for my automobile

I'm in love with my car
(In love with my car, in love with my car)
String back gloves in my automo-love

Imagine if every city had worked out a way to transport people where anyone living in a metro area was never more than five minutes away from a stop for mass transit. Imagine a world where there were so many various train routes going from city hub to city hub, there wouldn't even be a need for highways. Imagine if one's personal or commercial goods were moved from various tram-like / light rails along with cable cars that could be connected right to a drive way to a residence. Or, if we had anything interesting, we could use robotic pickups and dropoff of large materials to the locations of our choice. — schopenhauer1

You have a very vivid imagination. :grin:

Most of these things are very difficult to do, if not impossible.

Working from home reduces the use of automobiles. Having delivery services from businesses (e.g. supermarkets) would also reduce the use of automobiles. But I don't think that you can eliminate the use of automobiles completely. Like most things in life automobiles have their good points and their bad points.

Like most things in life automobiles have their good points and their bad points. — Agree-to-Disagree

The good points are known. They make things flexible. How much of the car industry and ancillary industries insulated itself from any substantial change to industry?

How much of the car industry and ancillary industries insulated itself from any substantial change to industry? — schopenhauer1

Most "established" industries and companies do this. If staying the same gives maximum profit then there is not much motivation to change. If this is what the shareholders want then then a company has an obligation to comply.

That small route can easily be re-allocated to a light rail. Simply put, all money that is supposed to go to more roads simply goes to rail. — schopenhauer1

Are you aware of what you are saying here? Where do you live?

The vast use of space used for roads, gas stations, parking lots, and other car related phenomena. — schopenhauer1

Very succinct, well-thought out, written, and agreeable, with the exception of this line.

Roads always existed. Either trails for walking or leading livestock comfortably, cobblestones for carriages or other wheeled mediums, etc. Gas stations = watering holes or small shops for feed. Parking lots = stables/inns one could accommodate their horse in reasonable warmth and comfort. Though, granted one would just tie up a horse to a tree and nap nearby. The sound of a horse being spooked would often awaken the traveler in the event of danger. I suppose by "other car related phenomena" you mean things like auto repair/supply shops/amateur race tracks and perhaps now EV stations? :chin:

Mass transit is nice but before there were buses they were trains. And before that caravans of buggies. Granted much more limited as far as precision or specificity as to being in the immediate vicinity of where one wished to ultimately arrive.

Also the "gas" part of the gas station actually takes up on average perhaps half or little more than half of the space the store utilizes for general parking/navigation and mainly, general commerce of goods. Safe, populated places where one would wish to store their horse or buggy took up much of the same space as well.

Cars remove the animal cruelty/burden aspect from human travel which can be equated to human existence. No man is an island. No settlement is its own universe.

I guess think of parking lots in cities. Lot of space for that. Perhaps the situation was the same for horse and buggy. More trains might need space unless it’s a subway. Trying to cover bases as to the externalities. Some are more impactful than others. But many roads did not take this amount of asphalt and concrete as ones used for automobiles. It’s no doubt more roads and material are needed to support the tons of steel.

I’d not be advocating horse again but public transit in the form of some kind of train system or cable cars.

Are you aware of what you are saying here? Where do you live? — jgill

Imagine this for almost any technology. Disbelief. A car or airplane to someone in 1789 might have seemed comically removed from reality, no? But please go on that trains to and from rural areas or at least, outer suburbs to grocery stores and cities- THIS is the one that is the most unbelievable and can never even be conceived in principle.

Most "established" industries and companies do this. If staying the same gives maximum profit then there is not much motivation to change. If this is what the shareholders want then then a company has an obligation to comply. — Agree-to-Disagree

This is true.

The combination of ideas is what is needed to transcend the 'evil' scenario.

Mass transit is the base idea of any new system, but, there is then a combination of Minority Report style vehicles or pods that travel the AI rail system, removing the inefficiency of fossil fuels and 'I'm my own fighter pilot' errors.

With such a system a rich man can buy a fancy autopod and anyone can summon one for a small fee, including children who need to get to school. Drunks and such, no problem. Everything is auto-drive.

Then these self same pods can go off-rail with more extensive AI or even manually piloted. Such a system includes all these solutions integrated into one system.

Wealthy people or smart ones could even 'lease out' or timeshare their vehicles and then almost anyone could 'lease/buy' on the basis of allowing their vehicle to be shared (already a thing, obviously).

I'm not really a fan of Capitalism, but it's clear than any transition to other economic styles would require an extended timeframe. So all of these measures have to be applied in part. Best to get started now.

For the right scenarios where traffic is high and fixed point to point, larger pods would be train or bus like. The whole solution would scale in every way.

Really the protocols and AI levels need to be standardized and that should be something already begun. Leaving the market too 'free' will defeat many of the efficiencies gained.

The automobile is a part of the capitalist society based on the technology and free market. Without them, the society will stop functioning smoothly. There will be economic collapse and many inconveniences in daily life for the society members without the automobiles.

It has many negative aspects as the OP listed, but then is there anything which are 100% positive and problem free under the scrutiny?

A.I. is already in place of some sectors of the current life - business, medical care, military device, education, art, literature and even in philosophy. It definitely offers more efficiency and speed of the operation and transactions in whatever walk of task they are working on than the conventional way of doing the business. However, there will be many uncertainties in aspect of human life in terms of mental wellbeing, economic insecurities and falling general intelligence. Can anyone stop the current trends of the progressing technologies, and turn the time back to the ancient times? Highly unlikely.

The point is that it is not just The automobiles, which have been negatively affecting human life. All technological advances in the capitalistic society impact human life enormously some in positive, and mostly in negative ways.

Somewhat anthropocentrically you have omitted to mention the vast numbers of animals killed by automobiles—estimated to be 350.000.000 per year in the United States alone.

Imagine if more money was put into mass transit. Bullet trains, underground subways. Imagine if every city had worked out a way to transport people where anyone living in a metro area was never more than five minutes away from a stop for mass transit. Imagine a world where there were so many various train routes going from city hub to city hub, there wouldn't even be a need for highways. Imagine if one's personal or commercial goods were moved from various tram-like / light rails along with cable cars that could be connected right to a drive way to a residence. Or, if we had anything interesting, we could use robotic pickups and dropoff of large materials to the locations of our choice. Imagine a world where automobiles were rare, and mainly used in rural areas that were extremely remote or for emergency purposes only. — schopenhauer1

Some corners of Europe are already a bit like that, though you can still own a car anyway. Amsterdam comes to mind. If I recall correctly, in some areas they have bikes and trams, but no cars.
Prague's public transport system is mindblowingly good.

Somewhat anthropocentrically you have omitted to mention the vast numbers of animals killed by automobiles—estimated to be 350.000.000 per year in the United States alone. — Janus

Yep, add it to the (growing) list. Do not take it as "exhaust"ive (pun intended).

Some corners of Europe are already a bit like that, though you can still own a car anyway. Amsterdam comes to mind. If I recall correctly, in some areas they have bikes and trams, but no cars.
Prague's public transport system is mindblowingly good. — Lionino

Yes, Europe definitely has a better transportation system due to the population density, smaller areas/ closer cities, smaller space for automobiles, preservation of the character of older areas, more emphasis on public works, and generally favorable green policies, when compared to the US federal spending (though this is also more dependent on state governments. California might be more "green", it also has a negative migration rate due to various overregulations amongst other things. Los Angeles is too spread out for trains to be a real option. San Francisco has a better system.. NYC, DC, and Boston tend to be better because of built-in public transit from an earlier time).

But please go on that trains to and from rural areas or at least, outer suburbs to grocery stores and cities- THIS is the one that is the most unbelievable and can never even be conceived in principle. — schopenhauer1

I'm trying. Hard to imagine a train track running down the road in front of my house. Would it stop at every house? Or make a reservation and the train will stop at your house.

This sounds so much better than having my car available anytime, and easily drivable to the Walmart about three miles away. Much better to wait for the neighborhood train.

Has anyone heard the saying 'easy for children, difficult for adults'? Maybe I'm misapplying it.

The best situation I've come across is a college campus type situation where most things are in walking distance and need for transportation is low. But that's a very narrow age group and most jobs are going to require travel, probably by car. And if you like more variety or travel or need a hospital or your friends move away or like to move a lot you're locked into the car. The old European cities sound good too.

JD Powers is saying the quality of cars is going down. Mostly early failure of new technologies.

I suppose this presents a pretty interesting conundrum - the human ingenuity that came up with an automobile, is also the one, at the same moment which created the psychological problem of desiring it's use. Now that we're able to fairly simply, easily, and cheaply travel from NYC to LA in 3 days instead of three months - losing that seems a bargain we can't justify - even by saving the planet lmao

NB: I am aware we can do it in 6-ish hours. Restricting comment to the use of cars.

I've done some road trips. For me they were just the opposite of a vacation. High stress, high worry, high risk. The destination has to be worth it for me and that seems to be less worth it than it used to be.

I do transit and flying but don't like flying either.

Interesting. No matter the destination, i tend to want road trips to last longer. It almost feels like a time-out-of-time when im road trippin'.

Yes, yes, you're young. I've been there, done that. Seems like I go through phases...maybe I'll get back to it.

Yes, Europe definitely has a better transportation system — schopenhauer1

Some (many) European cities. It is hard to generalise even countries. Portugal goes from complete public transport to no transport besides one bus route every hour.

Checking out on the highway, how many cars have just the driver, one person?
I'm guessing more than half, but things change all the time.
How many of the troubles can be put on the tragedy of the commons?

I'll begin my response to this highly relevant topic with a film made at the time of transition from hooves and hay to tires and gasoline: This short film was made 4 days before the San Francisco Earthquake in 1906. It consists of a cable car ride down Market Street; a camera was mounted on the front of the car. I know you are all media-sophisticated people, but bear in mind the film was silent.

How to sell those cars if not enough people are wealthy enough to buy all the cars produced. — L'éléphant

Ford started paying his workers 62¢ an hour ($5 a day) in 1914. At the time the average factory pay was around 22¢ per hour. This solved two problems. It reduced turnover in the workforce, and it enabled workers to buy a Model T, which in 1914 sold for around $500. Ten years later, the price had dropped to around $260.

I am not sure whether workers saved up for a car, bought it on time, or borrowed the money, My guess is more the former and less the latter.

I am not sure whether workers saved up for a car, bought it on time, or borrowed the money, My guess is more the former and less the latter. — BC

Some certainly did save up for it. But we're talking about the mass produced cars whose buyers didn't have the time to save up. 1919 was the first time auto loan was available to the general public.

Let's not blame everything on Ford. There was also Cadillac, Fiat, Renault, Land Rover, Skoda, Mercedes-Benz, Opel, Tatra, and Peugeot. In 1908 William C. Durant founded General Motors as a holding company for the Buick Car Company. Within two years, Durant brought together Oldsmobile, Cadillac, Pontiac, and the predecessors of GMC Truck

There are now 1.2 BILLION cars on the world's road with 2 BILLION expected by 2035. Most of these cars are now internal combustion powered. In 2035 a larger share will be electric -- but not all of them by any means.

1919 was the first time auto loan was available to the general public. — L'éléphant

Thanks for that. I didn't know when car loans began.