Moral arguments aside, it should be obvious that Israel is creating radicalism through its oppression. — Tzeentch
I just don't buy the idea that Hamas' actions or the support by Palestinians in large numbers, are the result of the conditions of Gaza / Palestinians, like they are beat animals that have no other choice. I just don't buy that beheading and raping civilians, keeping heads for ransom, etc. burning babies, parents praising children for their brutality as it's happening, and such are part-and-parcel of reaction of being mistreated. The Middle Eastern cultural practices when it comes to "justice", "land", and such are grizzly matters that makes their cause for X \ less sympathetic.
People think the situation is this:
The poor innocent Avatar people being colonized.. They are peaceful and want no harm but are being dominated by this imperial power... — schopenauer1
It doesn't matter where you believe Palestinian radicalism comes from. — Tzeentch
it should be obvious that Israel is creating radicalism through its oppression. — Tzeentch
Let me ask it simply:
You seem to believe Palestinians are somehow inherently radical.
So what? — Tzeentch
I believe Palestinian radicalism is created by Israel's behavior, much in the same line ↪Benkei argues. — Tzeentch
It doesn't matter where you believe Palestinian radicalism comes from. — Tzeentch
If you believe that Palestinians are inherently radical, what are you suggesting? That there is no burden on Israel to find a solution? That any amount of cruelty can be exacted on the Palestinians because, after all, "they are the problem"?
As I've pointed out, these roads lead to nowhere. Israel stands to lose the most, and that's a reality you seem unwilling to accept. — Tzeentch
In a way, I view the conflict as a system. Hamas has to give back the prisoners. They have to think of the lives of their own citizens. If Israel is going to fully go after Hamas, no matter the cost to the Palestinian side, and they have the ability to do this... If Palestinian leadership cared about their citizens, they would give up the fight, give back the prisoners, to prevent further destruction of their people.
Then, the US, has to essentially give Israel an ultimatum (once Hamas leadership is defeated), that they must have an international coalition along with a reformed PA rule Gaza (with the understanding that indeed the Gazans will have to de-radicalize and stop the cycle), or aid is halted, as Israel cannot indefinitely rule Gaza without it contributing to the further dissolution of a two-state solution and continue the world outcry against the occupation.
And for those who excuse Hamas' tactics because they are the "underdogs".. then it's a wash because then anything Israel does is just to over-power Hamas' brutality with their own power.. and so it's just simply power against power. It becomes nihilism all around and those with more power wins, whatever your conflation of the two sides might be.
So this being a system, they have to de-escalate by looking at it from the two sides.. Like when there are two people who have to turn a key to launch a nuke, the two sides have to play their part. Hamas would first have to give a shit about their own people. That key is harder to turn. — schopenhauer1
In a way, I view the conflict as a system. Hamas has to give back the prisoners. They have to think of the lives of their own citizens. If Israel is going to fully go after Hamas, no matter the cost to the Palestinian side, and they have the ability to do this... If Palestinian leadership cared about their citizens, they would give up the fight, give back the prisoners, to prevent further destruction of their people.
Then, the US, has to essentially give Israel an ultimatum (once Hamas leadership is defeated), that they must have an international coalition along with a reformed PA rule Gaza (with the understanding that indeed the Gazans will have to de-radicalize and stop the cycle), or aid is halted, as Israel cannot indefinitely rule Gaza without it contributing to the further dissolution of a two-state solution and continue the world outcry against the occupation.
And for those who excuse Hamas' tactics because they are the "underdogs".. then it's a wash because then anything Israel does is just to over-power Hamas' brutality with their own power.. and so it's just simply power against power. It becomes nihilism all around and those with more power wins, whatever your conflation of the two sides might be.
So this being a system, they have to de-escalate by looking at it from the two sides.. Like when there are two people who have to turn a key to launch a nuke, the two sides have to play their part. Hamas would first have to give a shit about their own people. That key is harder to turn. — schopenhauer1
First, Hamas isn't going to stop its resistance — Tzeentch
I don’t want to play a sport with you, if raping, cutting heads off people and ransoming it back to relatives, praising children for butchering x nimber of Jews and burning people is resistance, I’ll pass on your idea of competition.Until then, resistance is the only leverage Hamas has. — Tzeentch
I just don't buy the idea that Hamas' actions or the support by Palestinians in large numbers, are the result of the conditions of Gaza / Palestinians, like they are beat animals that have no other choice. I just don't buy that beheading and raping civilians, keeping heads for ransom, etc. burning babies, parents praising children for their brutality as it's happening, and such are part-and-parcel of reaction of being mistreated. The Middle Eastern cultural practices when it comes to "justice", "land", and such are grizzly matters that makes their cause for X \ less sympathetic.
Second, the US can't impose anything on Israel, let alone a decision so large as the two-state solution. Even if the US managed it politically, Israel would simply refuse to carry it out, just as Israel refused to carry out the long list of UNSC resolutions. — Tzeentch
Bottomline, this isn't dealing with reality. This is a blueprint for never solving the conflict, which is exactly what Israel has foolishly done for the past 60-or-so years. — Tzeentch
As it's been pointed out over and over, Israel's move to the right has been due to repeated history of Palestinians or their Arab neighbors in the form of States, trying to wipe Israel out, or (in the very beginning) not let them even become a state, so yeah. Having Palestinian complete control over the hill-country of the West Bank IS a strategic concern, and having a 15 mile corridor between two (obviously hostile) regions IS a security concern. Besides just that Benkei thinks this is how it should work, how would Israel know that Palestine would simply cease all hostilities if Israel completely left the West Bank and Gaza? What if instead of what you suggest (that Palestine is now whole, so has no reason to fight), it keeps fighting, but now from a much more forward position?
The real issue is you don't mind the terrorism as you think it is justified. — schopenhauer1
I don’t want to play a sport with you, if raping, cutting heads off people and ransoming it back to relatives, praising children for butchering x nimber of Jews and burning people is resistance, I’ll pass on your idea of competition. — schopenhauer1
The UN is irrelevant and is used as whatever X person's cudgel is against the US/Israel. — schopenhauer1
Having Palestinian complete control over the hill-country of the West Bank IS a strategic concern, and having a 15 mile corridor between two (obviously hostile) regions IS a security concern. Besides just that Benkei thinks this is how it should work, how would Israel know that Palestine would simply cease all hostilities if Israel completely left the West Bank and Gaza? What if instead of what you suggest (that Palestine is now whole, so has no reason to fight), it keeps fighting, but now from a much more forward position? — schopenhauer1
Of course that's resistance. It's hardly anything new in terms of what resistance movements have gotten up to historically. — Tzeentch
Even if you truly believe that, UN votings clearly show opinion on Israel is shifting, and that it and the US are increasingly more isolated. That is not irrelevant. That is the writing on the wall. — Tzeentch
Nothing Israel is doing and has been doing is changing its strategic position. In fact, it's actually worsening its position in the region significantly. — Tzeentch
What do you think will happen when the US retreats to its island and the Middle-East falls out of its control? We are rapidly approaching that point. — Tzeentch
For Gazans. Palestinians know there's no coming back, if they "voluntarily" move, or are moved outside.Oh, for Hamas? I have no doubt, the numbers of their own people they don't mind being used as fodder is hundreds of thousands or more. — schopenhauer1
And fundamentally creates and unsolvable problem for Zionism, because the idea of the Jewish homeland doesn't take into consideration Palestinians.The reality of the situation is that roughly as many Palestinians as Israelis live in the land Israel now occupies, which fundamentally compromises Israeli security. — Tzeentch
Hamas wanted that the Palestinian question and their cause isn't forgotten and doesn't affect the overall situation in the Middle East. They had the warplan for quite some time, but likely the potential Israeli-Saudi deal launched this. Hamas leaders referred to this in their statements on October 7th, even if not mentioning Saudi-Arabia, but referring to "some Arab states".Hamas wanted some apocalyptic shit, and it's getting it. — schopenhauer1
This might be a possibility, actually. If we extrapolate how things have been going, perhaps in the end the US really needs airbases in Israel and Cyprus and that's it.What do you think will happen when the US retreats to its island and the Middle-East falls out of its control? We are rapidly approaching that point. — Tzeentch
(ABC, 21st Jan 2024) In the latest escalation against U.S. forces in the Middle East, Iranian-backed militias launched a barrage of ballistic missiles and rockets at Al-Assad airbase in western Iraq on Saturday that left several U.S. personnel being evaluated for traumatic brain injuries, according to a statement from U.S. Central Command.
Most of the incoming missiles and rockets were intercepted by the air defense systems at the base, which is used by both the Iraq and U.S. militaries, but some impacted the base, officials said.
"At approximately 6:30 p.m. (Baghdad time) on January 20, multiple ballistic missiles and rockets were launched by Iranian-backed militants in Western Iraq targeting al-Assad Airbase," CENTCOM said in a statement.
"Most of the missiles were intercepted by the base’s air defense systems while others impacted on the base. Damage assessments are ongoing," it added. "A number of U.S. personnel are undergoing evaluation for traumatic brain injuries. At least one Iraqi service member was wounded."
Yet the fact is that the US Middle East policy is a train wreck. Likely sooner or later US is forced out of Iraq, perhaps as with low media coverage like France left the Sahel. If nobody makes a big issue about it in the media, perhaps people won't notice. — ssu
First peace with Egypt, then with Jordan and then Trumps Abraham records. Who remembers anymore the Oslo peace process? Everything is going fine, isn't it? Until now, Israel has thought it can very well handle everything, build settlements and simply do fine with the status quo. Hasn't that been the biggest job of Mr Security, Bibi Netanyahu?Yep, and unlike the US, Israel cannot retreat across an ocean and pretend nothing ever happened. It will be stuck in the middle of said trainwreck.
I think people grossly underestimate how dire this situation can become. — Tzeentch
Which, if I understand, you deny. And I agree. But I think you use "moral equivalence" here as a Trojan horse to gain entry for your own peculiar moral outrage.I think the main problem is that some people think there's a moral equivalence between the violence of Palestinians and Israel. — Benkei
1 &10) Reconcile? Reconcilable? Or are you agreeing with me that both should be in the same place?1. Israel to unilaterally recognise a right for the Palestinians to have a sovereign state where the 1967 borders will be the basis for the size of Palestine
2. stop all further settlements in WB and evictions in East-Jerusalem, recognise ownership rights in East Jerusalem
3. repeal all discriminatory laws in Israel proper
4. no more collective punishment of Palestinians
5. no more blockade of Gaza and its air space and sea
6. no more mass destruction in response to ineffectual missiles or balloons
7. tear down the wall
8. For the interim period, Gaza and WB remain occupied territories but they will be policed instead of military oppression
9. Palestinians to commit to an indefinite cease fire as long as Israel maintains the above 8 points
edit: 10. forgot: Palestinians to recognise Israel along the 1967 borders as the basis of the size of israel — Benkei
1) Hamas? Why?Enter into the transition period where Palestine should be set up:
1. include the political wing of Hamas in talks as well as PA
2. land-for-land exchanges to arrive at comparable land size
3. Israel to pay Palestine an amount equal to all the monies spent supporting illegal settlers so it has the means to settle the new lands it receives through the land-for-land exchange
4. Palestine to hire their own first and Israeli contractors second (which will lead to "reparations" flowing back to Israel and creating economic interdependence)
5. have religious leaders negotiate the Temple Mount
6. Jerusalem as independent city-state administered by Palestinians and Israelis alike
7. gradually transition policing activities in Palestine to Palestinians
8. Set up a special task force of like minded Israelis and Palestinians to investigate (terrorist) crimes committed by Israelis against Palestinians and vice versa, where jurisdiction will be with the state of the victim
9. retreat from WB and Gaza and set up border controls
10. Declare a Palestinian state
11. Party with your Israeli neighbours — Benkei
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