Your son is Australian right? He will be fine if he's white, most likely. It's black and brown people that will have an issue, sad to say.

Maybe another candidate could have won. Maybe not. Hard to say. Biden being so old and being the current president makes it difficult to campaign criticizing him harshly, which is what I suspect most Dems would have liked.

On the one hand, there is no doubt this was the Democrats race to lose (they have more registered voters). On the other, so many people in the US are just clueless and very badly informed.

It's not that I expect him in particular to be singled out, or anything, but only if the political climate becomes so hostile, and the economic consequences so severe, that it affects everyone.

I've spent some time with him in Wisconsin, in the Lakes district. Actually a beautiful and serene part of the world, and overall quite genteel. But there are dark forces beneath the placid surface.

Something I will add - our first visit to the US, in 2009, for the inaugural Science and Nonduality conference in San Rafael. In the cafeteria on the first day there, a young guy opined that the Republicans were facing long-term electoral oblivion, because their major constituency, old and white, was diminishing, and the multi-cultural younger generation hated their brand. I think that was something like the accepted wisdom - but it is precisely what this election has proven wrong. Trump was elected by those very multi-cultural young voters whom the Democrats had assumed they could count on.

“It’s very simple: If you try to win elections by talking to the elites of this country, you’re going to get your ass kicked — there are not enough Beyonces, Oprahs or Hollywood elites to elect anyone,” said Chris Kofinis, former chief of staff to Sen. Joe Manchin III (I-West Virginia). “Trump is not the disease. He is the symptom. The disease is political, cultural, and economic elites who keep telling the public what they should think, feel and believe — and guess what they told them on Tuesday: Go to hell.” — WaPo

It's hard to say. We can only hope for the best and try to help out whatever way we can to combat this right-wing plague surging everywhere.

Right-wing dynasty is more like it.

Bernie's attitude and behaviour is admirable. He's Good with a capital g. He's not the only one. Add to that that Bernie was right at the time - when no one else was or very few others were - on several very important impactful issues throughout recent history.

If only the world could be ran by people like him. Shame he's nearly censored across the board. That's no accident. Shame that there are so many people with strong unfounded opinions and feelings... all waiting to erupt at the sound of the word "socialist".

Sad world.

I'm very lucky.

Welcome to Trumpistan again!

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/945770

:up: :up:

Trump was elected by those very multi-cultural young voters whom the Democrats had assumed they could count on. — Wayfarer

That's not just an US phenomenon either. Young male voters are making a sharp turn to the right in the west.

True, that, but it's also the phemenon of turning against incumbency. If the Regime doesn't deliver, it'll be a revolving door as far as the electorate is concerned. And everyone knows, Trump is far better at complaining than delivering.

"Incumbency" seems to increasingly be defined not as any specific government, but as the entire socio-political (though curiously not the economic) status quo.

Reading what people say in right-wing spaces, they're mostly convinced that they're facing an ideologigally motivated group across politics, the media and civil society which will destroy western society unless they're stopped by an overwhelming counter-movement.

The point stands that many more much larger humanitarian crises exist around the world yet none generates the attention of Israel-Gaza today. It's not about sheer number of lives lost. It's clearly ideological. A narrative has been developed unlike in other (much larger) humanitarian crises that fits perfectly into the hot button issues of today.

Reading what people say in right-wing spaces, they're mostly convinced that they're fading an ideologigally motivated group across politics, the media and civil society which will destroy western society unless they're stopped by an overwhelming counter-movement. — Echarmion

Given the number of kids identifying as LGBT and choosing to sterilize themselves and undergo surgeries I wouldn't say they're too far off. Public trust in higher education has plummeted and anti-semitism has risen. We live in scary times where very basic questions like "what gender am I?" are now suddenly up for question. Not a good sign.

Given the number of kids identifying as LGBT and choosing to sterilize themselves and undergo surgeries I wouldn't say they're too far off. — BitconnectCarlos

I don't know the number. I have always assumed though that it's not a relevant amount of people.

Public trust in higher education has plummeted and anti-semitism has risen. We live in scary times where very basic questions like "what gender am I?" are now suddenly up for question. Not a good sign. — BitconnectCarlos

And do you think we're looking at the cause here or the symptoms?

My personal explanation, which admittedly is typically pretentious armchair philosophy, is that what we're seeing is the result of a lack of avenues for (systemic) progress.

We've lived through the "end of history", but now on the other side we realise we're facing all the same problems, plus a couple of new ones. But at the same time we've lost all faith in utopia. There's no longer anything out there we can strive for without reservation.

One thing that strikes me in conversations is that everyone is pessimistic. Whether it's the climate or islam, the looming disaster is a common thread.

Given the number of kids identifying as LGBT and choosing to sterilize themselves and undergo surgeries — BitconnectCarlos

There's however a great deal of statistical shifts due to the very fact that with an increasing tolerance towards a group that previously were stigmatized, more people feel secure in opening up about who they are.

It was the same during the 80s and 90s, as society started to believe that there was a sudden increase in homosexuality, when in fact, the higher tolerance and raising inclusion of homosexuality in society meant that people could open up more about their homosexuality. So the statistical numbers went up based on the hidden statistics that were invisible due to stigma.

This is why I don't think the public is able to understand statistics correctly and make accurate assessments about reality. Because it's not just math correlating with society on a 1 to 1 alignment, but many factors that need to be incorporated in order to actually know if something has changed or if it's affected by other factors.

Many researchers have basically concluded that a large portion of the perceptive increase is because the number of people were always there, hidden under years of traumatic and violent suppression of their sense of self, in which they could never tell anyone what they felt. The agony of not being able to tell anyone and not being able to live aligned with who they are.

In my perspective, all I see that's happening right now is that transsexual people are the new black people, the new homosexuals, the new hated group that society can use in their ill-constructed and uneducated reasoning about a world and society falling into ruin.

It's once again the herd mentality and echo chambers of the public believing they understand statistics, biology, psychology and history when in fact they don't, and only push themselves into lesser and lesser ability to interpret the world through a functioning empathy.

Your son is Australian right? He will be fine if he's white, most likely. It's black and brown people that will have an issue, sad to say.

I love all this fortune-telling. Why would black and brown people have an issue?

Nearly 30% of Gen Z identifies as LGBTQ+. Aside from this, the number of minors seeking gender affirming care nearly tripled between 2017 and 2021 from 15,000 to 42,000 and the trend has continued.

My main concern is with child transition though. We can't be asking children to determine their gender and then load them up with sterilizing hormones and permanent & quite painful surgeries. They simply don't have the mental capacity to make those sorts of decisions: How is it that children cannot buy alcohol or weed, yet they can apparently consent to permanently altering their bodies and destroying their fertility?

I certainly believe society should be nice and civil to transgenders. I also understand that transgender life is inherently difficult and expensive and painful.

More sinister is the idea, floating around in some radical circles, that we have no essential gender identity and it's entirely up to the individual (including the child) to self-define. Nature apparently gives us nothing; we are our own Gods. That scares me.

Nearly 30% of Gen Z identifies as LGBTQ+. Aside from this, the number of minors seeking gender affirming care nearly tripled between 2017 and 2021 from 15,000 to 42,000 and the trend has continued. — BitconnectCarlos

How do you know that this isn't a natural number? On which basis are you making the argument and at which percentage do you know is the "correct percentage" for society?

It's culture and society that has educated you into certain classifications and categorical ideas. If people are to classify the "natural" percentage among the human species, then how do you classify this? Seen as it may be affected by herd tribe sizes and procreation habits over time, changing sociological dynamics.

Until you have a measure stick, you can't know what the actual percentage is. What kind of measuring stick do you have?

My main concern is with child transition though. We can't be asking children to determine their gender and then load them up with sterilizing hormones and permanent & quite painful surgeries. They simply don't have the mental capacity to make those sorts of decisions: How is it that children cannot buy alcohol or weed, yet they can apparently consent to permanently altering their bodies and destroying their fertility? — BitconnectCarlos

This recommendation for being careful I can agree with. However, it's not just asking them what they think that determine things. In most cases there's a long investigation before determining if it's a sociological confusion or actual. There's an idea that children merely say they want to change sex and doctors pull out the tools, that's not how these things go.

There's also actual physiological aspects of gender that puts things into further perspective:

...would have this part of the brain the size, not the sex they were born with, but with the sex they insisted they always actually were — Robert Sapolsky

The problem is that the pushback from adults stuck in traditional thinking makes it harder for actual investigation to take place and once again a stigma that often makes these children grow up in agony and social confusion because no proper investigation was done as it gets stuck in outdated morals and stigma.

transgender life is inherently difficult and expensive and painful. — BitconnectCarlos

Only for those who live in areas that don't accept or don't fully commit to accept their existence. It's actually the opposite for many who transitioned and getting what they need, they have much better mental and physical health. The one's in pain, especially not getting subscriptions they need, live in areas with transphobes running the ship. The usual shit.

More sinister is the idea, floating around in some radical circles, that we have no essential gender identity and it's entirely up to the individual (including the child) to self-define. Nature apparently gives us nothing; we are our own Gods. That scares me. — BitconnectCarlos

This is the normal simplification that's going around. There are physical indicators (like in the Sapolsky lecture) making some cases actual physical and medical in nature. But the core problem that people, for some reason, never understands about gender science and philosophy, is that there's a difference between medical sex and gender. Gender is a construct that society has made up rules and culture around.

Most behavioral differences between women and men are superficial, programmed by culture and social norms rather than incorporated in our chromosomes and genes. Most of the genetical and biological differences have to do with certain hormonal behavior differences, chemical differences, but very little actually affect identity to the point it is a fundamental difference. Most notable difference is mainly muscle mass and seen as sexual orientation doesn't seem to correlate that much with some basic sex, not even that is inherent to the biological sex.

While it's important that society and culture adapts to new knowledge about ourselves as humans, it's important that this is done without harming people. But so far, the foundation on which people make decisions and definitions about others seem to be primarily made up by people not educated or knowledgeable on the subject, rather than following the actual research and science being done, and in so hurts far more than believing they protect. Not only does the science show that most opinions are just culturally programmed, the discourse itself surrounding the sciences and research shows to be culturally affected and limiting the ability for people to understand the conclusions being done by people who actually study these subjects. The bottom line is that most people in society do not actually know what they're talking about, but they sure have strong opinions anyway.

When elites look down on voters because they lack degrees, here’s what the educated look like:

Glad to be one and not the other.

http://youtube.com/post/Ugkx6lUc_MaNQISSDqlFrVSf1TJYCrMQRAzI?si=WfJnZhykg46Zh7vK

He has it basically right.

Frank states it better:

I have been writing about these things for 20 years, and I have begun to doubt that any combination of financial disaster or electoral chastisement will ever turn on the lightbulb for the liberals. I fear that ’90s-style centrism will march on, by a sociological force of its own, until the parties have entirely switched their social positions and the world is given over to Trumpism.

Can anything reverse it? Only a resolute determination by the Democratic Party to rededicate itself to the majoritarian vision of old: a Great Society of broad, inclusive prosperity. This means universal health care and a higher minimum wage. It means robust financial regulation and antitrust enforcement. It means unions and a welfare state and higher taxes on billionaires, even the cool ones. It means, above all, liberalism as a social movement, as a coming-together of ordinary people — not a series of top-down reforms by well-meaning professionals.

That seems a long way away today. But the alternative is — what? To blame the voters? To scold the world for failing to see how noble we are? No. It will take the opposite sentiment — solidarity — to turn the world right-side up again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/09/opinion/democrats-trump-elites-centrism.html

Let’s pray that the Republicans eliminate the filibuster at long last. They’re in the majority, they should be able to do what they want.

Trump has been pushing it and still continues to, and that’ll be great news if it succeeds. Bad news for the country and the world in the short term, but very good news going forward.

I have seen your political posts and discussions here and elsewhere.

I frankly don't think there would be any point in discussing these matters with you.

:up:

But the core problem that people, for some reason, never understands about gender science and philosophy, is that there's a difference between medical sex and gender. — Christoffer

Exactly. Transsexualism use to claim a medical basis, but the new wave of trans advocacy seems to be pushing to eliminate that, and I can't say that I blame them. Why should an adult even need to go through a medical screening (to determine whether s/he is "really" trans) to be prescribed HRT when gender is a social phenomenon?

Especially with the idea of "non-binary" today -- are we going to now claim a scientific/medical basis for that? What biological markers would determine that? Absurdity. Let adults live their own lives, but it is criminal in my opinion to permit children to sterilize themselves (and set them on a life path of marginalization) when any decent society acknowledges the need to place rules on children and make decisions for them.

A child can still take steps to transition without HRT and surgeries.

I get it: you can’t substantiate your beliefs. You don’t want to see your errors collide with truth.

Why should an adult even need to go through a medical screening (to determine whether s/he is "really" trans) to be prescribed HRT when gender is a social phenomenon? — BitconnectCarlos

The investigation is primarily for children, not adults. Adults have to rather go through dealing with a long line of other adult assholes who question their agency as human beings.

Especially with the idea of "non-binary" today -- are we going to now claim a scientific/medical basis for that? What biological markers would determine that? Absurdity. — BitconnectCarlos

Non-binary has to do with gender identity, not biological sex.

Let adults live their own lives, but it is criminal in my opinion to permit children to sterilize themselves (and set them on a life path of marginalization) when any decent society acknowledges the need to place rules on children and make decisions for them. — BitconnectCarlos

This is not what's going on. That is a conservative-held and marketed narrative that skews how these processes are actually done. The investigation into transsexuality in children is not just saying yes or no. There are both medical and psychological evaluations, very extensive. On top of that the statistics on regret among surgery sex change is around 1%. Compare that to knee replacements and nose-jobs where the regret rates are much higher but there's no evaluation before. Conclusion on that is that parents and doctors aren't just letting kids do anything without proper investigation.

As I've said, the "increase" can simply be that modern society understands and listen to transgender people much better and it enables more to open up about their situation, compare to before when sometimes there were even the risk of violence against them by both family and their social sphere.

A child can still take steps to transition without HRT and surgeries. — BitconnectCarlos

Depends on the situation. Many still hold on until they grown past puberty. But for many who are really medically confirmable, such puberty without hormon treatment can be extremely distressful. Among transgender children, thoughts of suicide exist in around half the group and almost a quarter have made attempts. The reason for it primarily links to how they're treated by family and people around them, while the lack of help and gender-affirming care are also factors.

Bottom line, while there is a ratio of detransitioning, the regret-ratio is much lower than the harm caused by the lack of support these children get. And that support is not in the way of talking them out of it, but rather in support of their gender identity. A big problem is the time it takes for a proper investigation, in which hormone therapy comes into play too late. It's also not common they get this therapy without being diagnosed with gender dysmorphia.

So calling it "criminal" in the way you did is not a proper way to deal with this topic. The only criminal thing is the high suicide rates among LGBTQ+ due to the still existing stigma and behavior against them. A behavior that will just become worse with Trump and Musk at the helm spewing their bullshit to mindless zealots.

can’t substantiate your beliefs — NOS4A2

:rofl:

Satire couldn’t be as good.

The only criminal thing is the high suicide rates among LGBTQ+ due to the still existing stigma and behavior against them. — Christoffer

The world is bending over backwards to affirm trans people in what is clearly a delusion (that men can become women and women can become men), so I'm not sure what more can be expected.

Some people are always going to refuse to accept what is in their view clearly a lie (and a harmful one, at that), and such is their right.

What happens when youthful beauty fades, biological realities set in and people realize they have mutilated their own bodies, sterilized themselves, committed themselves to a life-time of medication on the basis of a fantasy that can never be realized? People get suicidal.

It's extremely sad, but unsurprising.

what is clearly a delusion — Tzeentch

I'm not surprised to see the usual transphobic reactions as soon as the topic is raised. It's not a delusion, especially when the neurological research on the topic shows there are physiological differences in transgender people's brains showing attributes that misaligns with their medical sex. But I'm not surprised that your knee jerk reaction ignored that material I provided.

Some people are always going to refuse to accept what is in their view clearly a lie (and a harmful one, at that), and such is their right. — Tzeentch

Please provide the evidence for this lie and a solid argument on who benefits from it.

What happens when youthful beauty fades, biological realities set in and people realize they have mutilated their own bodies, sterilized themselves, committed themselves to a life-time of medication on the basis of a fantasy that can never be realized? People get suicidal. — Tzeentch

This is how you prove that you've not read a thing about the topic.

It's extremely sad, but unsurprising. — Tzeentch

The only thing that is extremely sad and unsurprising is how people like you come to these conclusions without having a anything else than an emotional knee jerk reaction to the topic; calling transgender people liars and delusional, ignoring the research and have zero ability to understand statistics on the subject.

It's basically just transphobia. The new fad among people who need an outlet to blame problems on. As it was with black people, homosexuals, jews, and so on. We're seeing the same kind of behavior against transgender people; calling them delusional and liars, purring them through the same kind of treatments. All while scientists are finding evidence that the phenomena isn't at all a construct, but has physiological attributes and signifiers.

I mean, the echos of old talk is telling:

"What these people really want, hidden behind obscure legal phrases, is the legal right to propose to our children that their way is acceptable."

"“I know that homosexuals (transgender people) cannot biologically reproduce children; therefore, they must recruit our children.”" — Anita Bryant, 1970

“Homosexuality (transsexualism) is abnormal, a perversion, and a disease.”

"The homosexual (transsexual) movement threatens the very foundation of our society." — Jesse Helms, 1994

“The risk of children being influenced into homosexuality (transsexuality) is unacceptably high.” — Mary Whitehouse, 1980s

“There is a religious war going on in this country. It is a cultural war… for the soul of America.” — Pat Buchanan, 1992

“The gay (transsexual) agenda is destroying the moral fabric of this country.” — Paul Cameron, 1989

“The institution of marriage and family is being attacked by those who want to redefine these foundational concepts.” — James Dobson, 2004

"The ERA would lead to unisex bathrooms and homosexual marriages… society is meant to keep men and women in different roles.” — Phyllis Schlafly, 1970

I mean, we could go on, but historically we're just witnessing the echoes of past behaviors.... again.

Maybe part of this modern rise of the old racist, homophobic and misogynic behaviors is because the conservatives are running out of people to blame? Since history has gone through its hate against most groups in society already, and they are once again losing their transphobic stance, it starts to become a sort of "then, let's hate everything then".

Going to be interesting to see what the next group these people will hate and put blame on.

It's basically just transphobia. — Christoffer

Not really. I don't hate or fear trans people - I support any adult's right to choose.

However, when you start blaming a society that's bending over backwards to accomodate trans people, I am not going to sugar coat things.

When this thing that on the surface looks like it would destroy your mental health starts actually destroying people's mental health, how is that in any way surprising?

calling transgender people liars and delusional, — Christoffer

They’re not liars or delusional. The claim is that what is delusional is the belief that you can change sexes. I’ve seen no convincing evidence to counter that argument— but I’m open to hearing one.

Probably a topic for another thread though.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/946451

Posted in the wrong thread.