Not even a reply because it's speaking massively of privilege and doesn't grasp the whole scope of life. Outside of modern society life is pretty brutal, and even in society you have to be born lucky to experience the good stuff. Honestly man...have some perspective. — Darkneos

So the question for this thread topic isn't something like "Is life worth living?"

But rather, "Is life worth living for underprivileged, unlucky people?"

And if we look at the modern socioeconomic trends, the answer to the latter is clearly, No.

Modern cultures that view euthanasia and assisted suicide positively and have legalized them are clearly saying that if one cannot live up to a certain socioeconomic standard, then it's better to die.

On that we agree (speaking of the commonality of the fleeting pondering of the concept of suicide). Hence my observation that the argument against suicide is: it's a permanent solution to a TEMPORARY problem.

Hence my observation that the argument against suicide is: it's a permanent solution to a TEMPORARY problem. — LuckyR

And whence is one supposed to get the optimism to believe this argument or see it as relevant?

Presumably every person has a breaking point, some just reach theirs temporally sooner than others. Once a person has reached that point, based on what can they still see their particular predicament not only as temporary, but, more importantly, that many better things are yet to happen for them and that their life will be nice and easy from that point on until the end?

Hence my observation that the argument against suicide is: it's a permanent solution to a TEMPORARY problem. — LuckyR

Not always. Don't forget people who have degenerative illnesses who would prefer to die than continue to experience suffering. Also people who have experienced traumatic events (prolonged sexual abuse, etc). The memories and pain - the PTSD may never go away either. Suicide may feel like the only method to gain permanent relief.

And whence is one supposed to get the optimism to believe this argument or see it as relevant?

Presumably every person has a breaking point, some just reach theirs temporally sooner than others. Once a person has reached that point, based on what can they still see their particular predicament not only as temporary, but, more importantly, that many better things are yet to happen for them and that their life will be nice and easy from that point on until the end

Several things.

First, the source of the "optimism" is the Actual Data that proves that among those in your exact situation (contemplating suicide), the vast majority (70 - 93%) will change their mind and decide that life is, in fact worth living after all. Though your implication is correct that many can not or will not understand or accept that data. But that is an error.

Additionally, we all continuously make a calculation that weighs the positives and negatives associated with continued existence. And you are correct some reach the point whereby the calculation tips to favor suicide. Say someone comes to that point at age 24. Statistically such a change is commonly brought about by a sudden, unanticipated negative (divorce, death of a loved one, financial or professional loss). That is: an acute event, as opposed to the effect of accumulated chronic issues. Think about it, if everything was going great for me then in a week my dad dies, my wife sleeps with my best friend and divorces me and my business is sued and goes under, my calculation will switch from "worth living" perhaps to "not worth living". However, fast forward 2 years, the death of a parent is something essentially everyone comes to grips with, as is divorce and bankruptcy. You'd be in a totally different mindset than the previous time point. OTOH, if I was born into abject poverty, with no family support, no economic resources and clinical depression, and I have reached the age of 24, by definition my calculation at age 23 was "worth living", so maybe at 24 it has tipped to "not worth living". Well considering what I have (successfully) dealt with all my life probably what has changed is my clinical depression (since everything else is rock bottom). Clinical depression is notorious for it's roller-coaster trajectory of ups and downs, that is how you're feeling is likely temporary.

Lastly your goal of life being "nice and easy" is a false one. Loads of people with not nice and not easy lives believe their life is worth living, which is the decider in this context.

Not always. Don't forget people who have degenerative illnesses who would prefer to die than continue to experience suffering. Also people who have experienced traumatic events (prolonged sexual abuse, etc). The memory and pain of the - the PTSD may never go away either. Suicide may feel like the only method to gain permanent relief

Well, you've pointed out a permanent problem (the degenerative illness), and I fully agree with Physician Assisted Suicide in such cases (as do many if not most).

As to grinding, chronic issues, those become the "norm" over time and don't independently tip the scales to "not worth living". True, the pain they cause provides plenty of examples in the "negative" category, but if despite their presence, the calculation is "worth living" something else, or a drastic worsening, needs to cause the balance to shift.

As to grinding, chronic issues, those become the "norm" over time and don't independently tip the scales to "not worth living". — LuckyR

I have spent 35 years working with people who have experiences of complex trauma and abuse, some were tortured in prisons overseas, some were, as children, sexually abused by care givers in horrific ways. Many people who undergo such things never recover, their brains seem to be rewired by the trauma. The high levels of substance misuse and suicide for this cohort are indicative. The assumption to date is that in some cases counselling or medication can assist recovery. But recovery eludes many people who wrestle with trauma for years and some, understandably, give up.

Clinical depression is notorious for it's roller-coaster trajectory of ups and downs, that is how you're feeling is likely temporary. — LuckyR

I have read two suicide notes in the past ten years from people who used precisely your term, e.g., 'I can't cope with the roller coaster ride any more.' It's hardly temporary if it's a continuous cycle. The experience of this is exhausting and every time you seem to be feeling better, you are conscious that just around the corner is another crash.

I was not aware that you are a professional in this very area. Then you're obviously conversant with the data, which (as far as my contribution to this thread is concerned) can be summed up thusly:

"The Houston study interviewed 153 survivors of nearly-lethal suicide attempts, ages 13-34. Survivors of these attempts were thought to be more like suicide completers due to the medical severity of their injuries or the lethality of the methods used. They were asked: “How much time passed between the time you decided to complete suicide and when you actually attempted suicide?” One in four deliberated for less than 5 minutes! (Simon 2005).
Duration of Suicidal Deliberation:
24% said less than 5 minutes
24% said 5-19 minutes
23% said 20 minutes to 1 hour
16% said 2-8 hours
13% said 1 or more days"

In an Australian study of survivors of self-inflicted gunshot wounds, 21 of 33 subjects (64%) stated that their attempt was due to an interpersonal conflict with a partner or family member (deMoore 1994). Most survivors were young men who did not suffer from major depression or psychosis, and the act was almost always described as impulsive. A similar study in Texas with 30 firearm attempters found 60% had experienced an interpersonal conflict during the 24 hours preceding their attempt.

Hence my reference to suicide trying to solve (most commonly) a "temporary problem".