the AI answer
Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, expressions, and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender-diverse people. It's a distinct concept from biological sex, which refers to physical attributes like chromosomes, hormones, and reproductive organs. Gender is a social construct, meaning it's created and shaped by society and culture, with norms and expectations varying across time and different societies.

Gender Identity:
Gender identity: An individual's internal sense of self as male, female, both, neither, or another identity.
Transgender: A term for individuals whose gender identity differs from the sex they were assigned at birth.
Nonbinary: A term for individuals who do not identify as exclusively male or female.
Genderfluid: A term for individuals whose gender identity fluctuates over time.

Gender as a behavior is fluid and changing. It may change over an individuals lifetime. Of course women dressing in suits, smoking cigars, drinking whiskey and using vulgar language do not attract as much social approbation as men wearing dresses and high heels but still gender behavior is a choice and in a truly free country should be tolerated even if not promoted or endorsed.

Biological sex is a different and more complex matter. Most think it is simple male or female but they are unfamiliar it seems with chromosomal abnormalities, true intersex and the various differences in sexual differentiation which can occur. Try watching the end of "Conclave" persistant mullerian duct snydrome Consult wikipedia on disorders (bad term) of sexual differentiation for a long list. So those who spout the there are only two sexes mantra merely display ignorance of the complexity of biology and natures endless variations.

I also suspect most have never dealt with individuals who display true gender dysphoria but telling them they are mistaken and psychologically disturbed is no solution at all. The rate of depression and suicide in this population is tragic.

So those who spout the there are only two sexes mantra merely display ignorance of the complexity of biology and natures endless variations. — prothero

There's male, female, and what else? Various disorders where the person has characteristics of both sexes? That's not really a third sex though.

It is not really purely male or purely female either, is it? So we have to make room for these people in our society, our laws and our thinking?

It is not really purely male or purely female either, is it? So we have to make room for these people in our society, our laws and our thinking? — prothero

It is and we don’t.

Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, expressions, and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender-diverse people. It's a distinct concept from biological sex, which refers to physical attributes like chromosomes, hormones, and reproductive organs. Gender is a social construct, meaning it's created and shaped by society and culture, with norms and expectations varying across time and different societies. — prothero

Which means that an individual's gender is determined by society, not by the individual like sex is.

Do you deny that there are social differences between men and women, independent of their karyotype and genitals? Are we are gender-blind outside of reproduction and reproductive health? — Michael

Yes because in speaking of social differences, we are speaking about differences in societies. When speaking about differences between a man and a woman, we are speaking about biological differences. To conflate the two would be practicing sexism.

Androids aren't people, they're machines. — Michael

If an artificial human isn't a human then artificial penises aren't penises.

What if a woman has a dildo (an artificial penis) in her purse - does she get to use the men's restroom?

Some dude who just woke up one day wanting different body parts for no logical reason, that's just not something that needs to be taken seriously.
— Outlander

It's also not something that actually happens. — Michael

Yet you say that there is no specific example of expressing one's gender:

It doesn't show anything specific, which is what I'm asking for.
— Harry Hindu

Because there is no specific thing. — Michael

You are the one that has created the circumstances of gender being this open-ended thing that can mean anything - as long as it's not sex, so it isn't a straw-man until you provide some concrete examples.

Martin and Ruble conceptualize this process of development as three stages: (1) as toddlers and pre-schoolers, children learn about defined characteristics, which are socialized aspects of gender; (2) around the ages of five to seven years, identity is consolidated and becomes rigid; (3) after this "peak of rigidity", fluidity returns and socially defined gender roles relax somewhat. Barbara Newmann breaks it down into four parts: (1) understanding the concept of gender, (2) learning gender role standards and stereotypes, (3) identifying with parents, and (4) forming gender preference.

How is 1) achieved if

In the very early years of human development – and in particular at a time when we're unlikely to even be aware of sex organs different from our own — Michael

?
If gender as social expectations of the sexes is determined by sex and we aren't aware of other sex organs, then how can we learn the characteristics of gender at an early age? How does a toddler learn why some people where dresses and some wear pants if they aren't aware of other sex organs?

You can't even stay consistent with your own arguments (oh wait, I forget, they are the scientists' arguments and scientists are prophets from on high and should never be questioned -which is how you distance yourself from your own contradictions).

So what does the transgender man falsely believe himself to be? — Michael

That they are a man. Why else would they be calling themselves a man? And yes, many trans-gender people do not like the trans- qualifier. They actually consider themselves a man or a woman.

That they are a man. Why else would they be calling themselves a man? And yes, many trans-gender people do not like the trans- qualifier. They actually consider themselves a man or a woman. — Harry Hindu

Yet again with the equivocation.

You are correct to say that the transgender man is not a biological man but you are incorrect to suggest that the transgender man believes himself to be a biological man. So your claim that he suffers from a delusion stems from a fallacy.

I assume that @Outlander is making the same mistake.

If gender as social expectations of the sexes is determined by sex and we aren't aware of other sex organs, then how can we learn the characteristics of gender at an early age? How does a toddler learn why some people where dresses and some wear pants if they aren't aware of other sex organs? — Harry Hindu

I don't quite understand your question. Are you suggesting that 3 year olds do in fact know that some of the children in their class have a penis and some have a vagina, and that this biological difference dictates social differences? Or are you suggesting that 3 year olds don't understand that some of the children in their class are called "boys" and some are called "girls", and that those who are called "boys" and those who are called "girls" tend to wear different clothes and play with different toys and are referred to using different pronouns?

If an artificial human isn't a human then artificial penises aren't penises. — Harry Hindu

It doesn’t matter what you call it. Which bathroom should the transgender man who has had genital surgery use? The women's bathroom or the men's bathroom? Given that you mentioned sex parts to explain why we have separate bathrooms for men and women it’s a pertinent question.

I think the gender/sex split makes sense to differentiate performative roles vs biological ones. However, I also think that gender roles in general tend to be inherently limiting when enforced (socially or otherwise), and that gender roles by their nature tend to end up at least socially enforced. Realistically I believe post-gender thinking is the best way forward, though I'm not sure how possible it would be to convince people of this. I think we are capable as a society of accommodating our various biological differences without getting as hung up as we do about what parts people have or if we think how they act matches their parts. That said, people seem to *really really* like gender roles.

Realistically I believe post-gender thinking is the best way forward, though I'm not sure how possible it would be to convince people of this. — MrLiminal

This goes back to the heart of the debate, why would you have to "convince" someone of something that doesn't actually result in any benefit or alleviation of burden? Something that's not organic. Sure, I'll be the first person to agree that medicine, that is to say, the best path forward, in and of itself, may not taste good or otherwise be pleasurable at the start. Same with any effort, exercise, or endeavor. But why people do all of the above, things that may be at first or even overall unpleasant, is because all of these things result in one simple thing: result itself. It's "self-evident" that exercise, though often unpleasant and grueling offers benefit. Same with hard work, effort, and dedication. So, if your belief is not "possible" to justify (at least in your current understanding) I would have to ask the obvious question: what makes you think it justified to hold to begin with? :chin:

I think we are capable as a society of accommodating our various biological differences without getting as hung up as we do about what parts people have or if we think how they act matches their parts. — MrLiminal

The best part about modern society is that everyone is equal. Provided you follow the law. You can walk around thinking you're a cat and have a right to pee anywhere, but in reality, if you break the law, you will be placed under arrest or otherwise suffer real and tangible punishment toward your person or asset. That's the only way to get people to behave. And that's how the world we live in is.

In an ideal world, rude people or those unable to behave civilly would have been bred out along time ago. Problem is, this is a post-war world with 5,000 years of war, conquest, and various other immoralities. So, it's populated with the worst of the worst. That's what we're working with here. The solution is fairly obvious but as far as politically correct things going forward: it's about following the law and being a law-abiding citizen. Ensuring those who have true value in civil society (intellect, morality, compassion, heroism, etc.) are allowed to reproduce in greater numbers while those who are not slowly dwindle in number, thus making the world a better place for all and preventing it from becoming a hellish dystopia no one really wants to live in.

Also, glad to see you back after your 5 month absence. Feel free to post in the Shoutbox as far as what you've been up to. :point:

This goes back to the heart of the debate, why would you have to "convince" someone of something that doesn't actually result in any benefit or alleviation of burden? — Outlander

I think there are several examples of ways of thinking we have managed to convince most people out of historically. Human sacrifice and slavery were once fairly common compared to now (not that gender discussion is at that level, of course). I would also argue that a post-gender way of thinking could result in an easing of burden, it's just so intrinsically linked into how we currently think that it's difficult to see the ways it limits us. However, I also acknowledge that there are downsides and pitfalls, as on some level I also believe gender norms serve as a baseline for many people as a way of orienting themselves in reality and explaining who they are to themselves. Tbh I'm not convinced it would be a full on improvement either, as I think attempts at post-gender thought sometimes fall into the trap of inventing new social roles for people to fill that then start to become increasingly solidified by time and social pressure. I just can't help but think that we put so much effort into gender/sex discussions as a society that it ultimately distracts us from more universal issues. But then I still think of myself as a man, so maybe I'm part of the problem I'm describing, lol.

The best part about modern society is that everyone is equal. Provided you follow the law. You can walk around thinking you're a cat and have a right to pee anywhere, but in reality, if you break the law, you will be placed under arrest or otherwise suffer real and tangible punishment toward your person or asset. That's the only way to get people to behave. And that's how the world we live in is. — Outlander

I agree with this and your following paragraph. I'm not really talking about politically correct stuff here though per say. When I say "post-gender" thought what I mean to say is that gender roles would not be expectations so much as statistical observations, while still acknowledging sexual differences. As you said, everyone is more or less free to do what they want within the confines of the law, I'm talking more about transforming the social expectations of people. Kind of like how back in the 90s there was that big push to let boys and girls play with each other's respective toy sets. Tomboys and letting boys play with easy-bake oven without it being weird, kind of thing. I think there will be obvious statistical patterns of behavior that will arise along sex lines, but my point is removing the expectation of it. We as humans are hard coded to see patterns, and often we let the patterns become expectations, and then expectations can become beliefs. I think challenging the expectation is good while acknowledging that not everyone is an outlier.

Also, glad to see you back after your 5 month absence. Feel free to post in the Shoutbox as far as what you've been up to. — Outlander

Thank you for noticing. Not much to tell, honestly. My interests can just be kind of flighty sometimes.

There's male, female, and what else? Various disorders where the person has characteristics of both sexes? That's not really a third sex though. — RogueAI

It is not really purely male or purely female either, is it? So we have to make room for these people in our society, our laws and our thinking? — prothero

It is and we don’t. — Malcolm Parry

I've been interested in the biology of sex since the 1980ies, but I'm really bad at understanding biology. However, reading about biology from biologists, I did get the impression that the way we abstract from biological sex is cultural. So the "fact" that there are men and women is a gendered abstraction that biologists sometimes find useful and sometimes don't. Biological facts are biological facts, but the biological categories we use to make sense of biological facts are theory-bound and often reflect what we're interested in. Sex is sex, but the way we research sex is - in part - gendered.

I've been looking online, right now, for examples of what biologists have to say about the topic, and surprisingly the most interesting (to me) yield comes from a Quora page, as an answer to a question about biological sex, which confusingly uses the word "gender" and thus also gives rise to the expected reactions. A few biologists do talk about sex, though. A selective sample (usually not the entire post):

Link

James McInnes:

I can tell you that we distinguish between anatomical sex and genetic sex. I believe that there are 12 viable combinations of sex chromosomes in humans; XX and XY are the most common, of course, but we see XO, XXX, XXY, XXXY, XXYY and some more rare combinations. Most of the time the presence of the Y chromosome produces an anatomically male phenotype, but, as luck would have it, some people with a Y chromosome are insensitive to androgens or have a deletion in the SRY gene and they have a female phenotype despite the Y chromosome.

There are also people born chimeric, the product of early fusion of two different fertilized eggs, who develop with some tissues from one cell line, and other tissues from the other. Sometimes they are XX/XY chimeras and parts of their anatomy develop as male and parts female. They can have distinct male and female genitalia.

That brings us to phenotypic / anatomical sex. Most clinical records minimally accept 4 designations: male, female, intersex, and ambiguous. Often times there will be a cytogenetic description if the person is not XX or XY, and there’s a code if they are androgen resistant XY female. I’ve seen these in clinical trial data records I’ve worked with in the past and it still catches me by surprise when I see it.

In summary, biology recognizes that gender is psychology, not biology. Biology recognizes that there are more that two sexes (3–15, depending on the classification scheme used).

Comment: I'm curious about the "classification schemes". Everything else sounds familiar, and is the stuff I sort of understand on the whole, but not in detail. One of the things I never properly understood is the difference between "intersex" and "ambigous". The language here gets very biological, and I'd need to dive deeper here than I'm willing. I'm content to know that biologists (some? most? all?) understand the difference.

Rik Wouters:

I’m not very well informed about what sexes are defined right now, but it surely doesn’t take a lot of effort to convince me of the existence of an xth sex. The only issue is how to define a sex and that will determine the number of sexes in existence. Limiting the total number to 2, however, unavoidably causes difficulties that can be prevented. The number needs to be higher than that. How high depends on what’s most practical and intuitive to work with.

Comment: Non-expert with a practical intuition of how many categories are useful.

Quinn Copeland:

Understand that humans, like all other organisms , function primarily to to pass on their genes, and for us that means a pairing between a male and female. That is the only way it can be done in vivo, naturally.

There’s no other combination that allows the passing of genes.

Comment: Male/female binary, with deviation being defined strictly in terms of "passing on of genes".

Oliver Caspari:

If you look at the great big hump in the centre of the bell curve, there’s no problem because all of these tend to point you in the same direction for a given individual. But as you move closer to the long tails of the normal distribution, expect to be surprised.

Comment: Statistical distribution.

Adriana Heguy:

Sex determination is also very, very complex and in biology, you can find pretty much all kinds of modality: some binary, some non-binary, including non-reproducing forms such as worker or soldier ants, and also parthenogenesis. Many environmental factors affect sex determination, too. And I’m talking just about sex, not gender.

[...]

As a professional biologist, I’m not surprised by people who feel that their gender does not match their biological, chromosomal, or anatomical sex, or by people who don’t feel that they are of either gender, or who feel they are both genders at once. What would be surprising from a biological point of view is if this did not happen, given that biology is messy and complex, and there are hardly any hard and fast rules.

Comments: Left out paragraphs talking about gender. This sort of response is, in my enteriely anecdotal experience, pretty common with non-human biologists, and less common though not by much with human biologists. Take that with a grain of salt; I'm unaware of any studies on the topic, so I have nothing to corroborate.

Make of this what you will. My own take on this is that even when a stark biological binary is useful, it's strictly centered on reproduction with very limited validity outside of this topic. Even then, it stops at "male" and "female" - and I'm not sure how we would relate reproductive systems to individuals. "Man" and "Woman" are terms meant to describe individuals, and that's a step up the abstraction ladder from the only clear binary that is useful. In effect, "man" and "woman" are gender terms, not sex terms, and that's what we care about. Any appeal to biology feels like an appeal to authority, rather than an appeal to biological sexual facts.

So, yeah, I'm on the whole with prothero here: It's not really purely male and purely female; it's a matter of how you classify stuff. I'm curious about trans biology (we might learn more), and insisting on a binary + deviance might hinder us getting a clear view of field. Facts are meaningless without theory.

But that simply kicks the can back into a situation we were already in. Without sufficiently defining Sex, there is no disambiguation (but, in reality, we all know the difference, so this is just window dressing and convincing people like Michael to stop fucking around).

There are males and females, based on SRY activation and this is the earliest, most obvious determinant. It is also what is taught to biologists as best I can tell. Other forms of 'sex' are specified where 'the sex of the organism' is an absolute categorical 1 or 0. This also applies to all 'intersex' individuals.

This means that everything in those responses makes sense, and isn't unreasonable. What is unreasonable is to simply defer to 'grey area' instead of figuring out the best uses of words for our purposes. So, disambiguating gender has been done extremely well, by almost everyone but weirdos.
Defining sex is actually just as simple. As is determination. There's no ambiguity, if you use the fundamental, non-ambiguous "classification". The only other one which would make sense is whether or not the organism produces gametes (and which ones) but we see hte flaws there, i assume.

from wikipedia
Sex chromosome anomalies belong to a group of genetic conditions that are caused or affected by the loss, damage or addition of one or both sex chromosomes (also called gonosomes).
In humans this may refer to:
45, X, also known as Turner syndrome
45,X/46,XY mosaicism, also known as X0/XY mosaicism and mixed gonadal dysgenesis
46, XX/XY
47, XXX, also known as trisomy X or triple X syndrome
47, XXY, also known as Klinefelter syndrome
47, XYY, also known as Jacobs syndrome
48, XXXX, also known as tetrasomy X
48, XXXY
48, XXYY
48, XYYY
49, XXXXY
49, XYYYY
49, XXXXX, also known as pentasomy X
46, XX gonadal dysgenesis
46, XY gonadal dysgenesis, also known as Swyer syndrome
46, XX male syndrome, also known as de la Chapelle syndrome
In this list, the karyotype is summarized by the number of chromosomes, followed by the sex chromosomes present in each cell. (In the second and third cases the karyotype varies from cell to cell, while in the last three cases, the genotype is normal but the phenotype is not.)

Sex chromosome mosaicism, a genetic condition, means an individual has different cell lines with varying numbers or types of sex chromosomes. It's not uncommon, with the most frequent forms being 45,X/46,XX and 45,X/46,XY. This mosaicism can lead to a wide range of physical and developmental differences.

also from wikipedia differences, variations (disorders of ) sexual differentiation

Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) – a condition which affects a genetic male's virilization. A person with androgen insensitivity syndrome produces androgens and testosterone but their body does not recognize it, either partially or completely. Mild androgen insensitivity syndrome generally causes no developmental issues and people with this form are raised as males.[44] Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome results in ambiguous genitalia and there is no consensus regarding whether to raise a child with this form as male or female. Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome causes a genetic male to have a vagina (often incompletely developed, nearly always blind-ending), breasts, and a clitoris; people with this form are raised as females.[45]
Aphallia – a rare condition where a XY male is born without a penis. As of 2017, only 100 cases have been reported in literature.[46]
Aromatase deficiency – a disorder which, in females, is characterized by androgen excess and estrogen deficiency, and can result in inappropriate virilization, though without pseudohermaphroditism (i.e., genitals are phenotypically appropriate) (with the exception of the possible incidence of clitoromegaly). Aromatase deficiency can also be caused by mutations in P450 oxidoreductase gene.[47]
Aromatase excess syndrome (familial hyperestrogenism) - a condition that causes excessive estrogen production, resulting in feminization without pseudohermaphroditism (i.e., male genitalia at birth and female secondary sexual characteristics at puberty) in males and hyperfeminization in females.[48]
Campomelic dysplasia – a condition caused by de novo autosomal dominant mutations in the SOX9 gene, causing bowing of the limbs, sex reversal in around two thirds of 46,XY males (but not in 46,XX females), and respiratory insufficiency. While in roughly 95% of cases, death occurs in the neonatal period due to respiratory distress, those that live past infancy typically survive to become adults.[49]
Clitoromegaly – a clitoris that is considered larger than average. While clitoromegaly may be a symptom of an intersex condition, it may also be considered a normal variation in clitoris size. Clitoromegaly causes no health issues. Surgical reduction of the clitoris or its complete removal may be performed to normalize the appearance of the genitalia. While female genital mutilation is outlawed in many countries, reduction or the removal of the clitoris in cases of clitoromegaly are generally exempt, despite the fact that it is a nontherapeutic and sexually damaging surgery. Clitoromegaly may also be caused by females using testosterone or anabolic steroids for purposes related to female to male gender transition or bodybuilding.
Combined 17α-hydroxylase/17,20-lyase deficiency – a condition which presents as a combination of the symptoms of congenital adrenal hyperplasia and isolated 17,20-lyase deficiency. See those two conditions for more information.[50]
Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) – a condition which completely affects a genetic male's ability to recognize androgens. It is considered a form of androgen insensitivity syndrome and is the most severe form. People with complete androgen insensitivity are raised as females and usually do not discover they are genetic males until they experience amenorrhoea in their late teens or they need medical intervention due to a hernia caused by their undescended testes.[51][52] Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome results in a genetic male having a vagina, clitoris, and breasts which are capable of breastfeeding. However, they will not have ovaries or a uterus. Because they do not have ovaries or sufficiently developed testicles, people with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome are infertile.[53]
Congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) – a condition that causes excessive androgen production, which causes excessive virilization. It is most problematic in genetic females, where severe virilization can result in funding [?] of labia and an enlarged clitoris.[54][55] Females with this condition are usually fertile, with the ability to become pregnant and give birth. The salt-wasting variety of this condition is fatal in infants if left untreated.[56]
Denys–Drash syndrome and the related Frasier syndrome – similar rare conditions arising from de novo autosomal dominant mutations in the WT1 gene, causing symptoms ranging from undervirilization to complete sex reversal with persistent Müllerian ducts in affected 46,XY males (but not in 46,XX females).[57] The disorders are invariably fatal before the age of 15, causing kidney failure due to nephrotic syndrome.[58]
Estrogen insensitivity syndrome (EIS) – the estrogen counterpart to androgen insensitivity syndrome. Extremely rare, with only one verified case having been reported; a biological male presented with tall stature, a heightened risk of osteoporosis, and sterility.[59]
Gartner's duct cyst – persistent Wolffian Ducts in XX females.
Gonadal dysgenesis – any congenital developmental disorder of the reproductive system characterized by a progressive loss of primordial germ cells on the developing gonads of an embryo.
Herlyn-Werner-Wunderlich syndrome – a disorder where the Müllerian ducts fail to fuse during embryonic development, leading to the presence of 2 vaginas, 2 uteruses, and a single kidney. Can also affect the spleen, bladder and other urogenital structures.[60][61]
Isolated 17,20-lyase deficiency – a condition that is characterized by either partial or complete inability to produce androgens and estrogens.[62] Results in partial or complete feminization and undervirilization in males and in a delayed, reduced, or absent puberty in both sexes, in turn causing sexual infantilism and infertility, among other symptoms.[63]
Klinefelter syndrome (47,XXY and XXY syndrome) – a condition that describes a male born with at least one extra X chromosome. Though the most common variation is 47,XXY, a man may also be 48,XXXY or 49,XXXXY. It is a common occurrence, affecting 1 in 500 to 1,000 men.[64] About 1 in 50,000 men are affected by variant 48,XXXY (Two extra X) and 1 in 100,000 men affected by variant 49,XXXXY (Three extra X).[65] While some men may have no issues related to the syndrome, some may experience gynecomastia, micropenis, cognitive difficulties, hypogonadism, reduced fertility/infertility, and/or little or no facial hair. Testosterone therapy may be pursued by men who desire a more masculine appearance and those with gynecomastia may opt to undergo a reduction mammoplasty. Men who wish to father children may be able to do so with the help of IVF.[66][4][67]
Leydig cell hypoplasia – a condition solely affecting biological males which is characterized by partial or complete inactivation of the luteinizing hormone receptor, resulting in stymied androgen production. Patients may present at birth with a fully female phenotype, ambiguous genitalia, or only mild genital defects such as micropenis and hypospadias. Upon puberty, sexual development is either impaired or fully absent.[68][69]
Lipoid congenital adrenal hyperplasia – an endocrine disorder that arises from defects in the earliest stages of steroid hormone synthesis: the transport of cholesterol into the mitochondria and the conversion of cholesterol to pregnenolone—the first step in the synthesis of all steroid hormones.[70][71]
Mild androgen insensitivity syndrome (MAIS) – a condition which mildly affects a genetic male's ability to recognize androgens. It is considered a form of androgen insensitivity syndrome and is considered the least severe form. While men generally do not need any specialized medical care related to this form, mild androgen insensitivity syndrome may result in gynecomastia and hypospadias. Neither gynecomastia nor hypospadias require surgical intervention or adversely affect a man's health though some men may opt to undergo surgery to remove their breasts and/or repair their hypospadias. Men with mild androgen insensitivity syndrome may have reduced fertility.
Mixed gonadal dysgenesis – a condition of unusual and asymmetrical gonadal development leading to an unassigned sex differentiation. A number of differences have been reported in the karyotype, most commonly a mosaicism 45,X/ 46,XY.[72]
Ovotesticular disorder (also called true hermaphroditism) – a rare condition where an individual has both ovarian and testicular tissue.[28] It is the rarest DSD with at least 500 cases being reported in literature.[73]
Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (PAIS) – a condition which partially affects a genetic male's ability to recognize androgens. It is considered a form of androgen insensitivity syndrome and while it is not as severe as complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, it is more severe than mild androgen insensitivity syndrome.[74] Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome causes major problems with gender assignment because it causes ambiguous genitalia such as a micropenis or clitoromegaly in addition to breast development. People with partial androgen insensitivity syndrome who are assigned as males may undergo testosterone therapy to virilize their body while those who are assigned as females may undergo a surgical reduction of the clitoris and/ or estrogen therapy.[75]
Penoscrotal transposition (PST) – a group of congenital defects involving an abnormal spatial arrangement of penis and scrotum.
Persistent Müllerian duct syndrome – a condition where fallopian tubes, uterus, or the upper part of the vagina are present in an otherwise normal male.[76]
Pseudovaginal perineoscrotal hypospadias (PPSH) – a form of ambiguous genitalia which results in a phallic structure that is smaller than a penis but larger than a clitoris, a chordee, hypospadias, and a shallow vagina.[77]
Swyer syndrome (Pure Gonadal Dysgenesis or XY gonadal dysgenesis) – a type of hypogonadism in a person whose karyotype is 46,XY. The person is externally female with streak gonads, and left untreated, will not experience puberty. Such gonads are typically surgically removed (as they have a significant risk of developing tumors) and a typical medical treatment would include hormone replacement therapy with female hormones.[78][79]
Turner syndrome (Ullrich-Turner syndrome and gonadal dysgenesis) – a condition that describes a female born with only one X chromosome or with an abnormal X chromosome, making her karotype 45,X0. It occurs in 1 in 2,000 to 5,000 females.[80] Turner syndrome can cause numerous health and development problems, including but not limited to short stature, lymphedema, infertility, webbed neck, coarctation of the aorta, ADHD, amenorrhoea, and obesity.[81]
Müllerian agenesis (Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser syndrome or vaginal agenesis) – a condition that causes the uterus and other reproductive organs in a 46,XX female to be small or absent, as well as the vaginal canal itself. It affects 1 out of 4,500 to 5,000 females and can also come with skeletal or endocrine system issues at conception.[82][83]
XX testicular DSD – a condition where an individual with an XX karyotype has a male appearance. Genitalia can range from normal to ambiguous genitalia.[84] It is estimated to occur in 1 in 20,000 males.[85]
5α-reductase deficiency (5-ARD) – an autosomal recessive condition caused by a mutation of the 5-alpha reductase type 2 gene. It only affects people with Y chromosomes, namely genetic males. People with this condition are fertile, with the ability to father children, but may be raised as females due to ambiguous or feminized genitalia.[38][39]
17β-Hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase deficiency – a condition characterized by impaired androgen and estrogen synthesis in males and females, respectively. Results in pseudohermaphroditism/undervirilization in males.[40][41]
46,XX/46,XY – a chimeric condition where the person shows variable karyotype in the 23rd chromosome pair, resulting from embryonic merging.[42] It can vary in presentation from phenotypically normal, to ambiguous.[43]
Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) – a condition which affects a genetic male's virilization. A person with androgen insensitivity syndrome produces androgens and testosterone but their body does not recognize it, either partially or completely. Mild androgen insensitivity syndrome generally causes no developmental issues and people with this form are raised as males.[44] Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome results in ambiguous genitalia and there is no consensus regarding whether to raise a child with this form as male or female. Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome causes a genetic male to have a vagina (often incompletely developed, nearly always blind-ending), breasts, and a clitoris; people with this form are raised as females.[45]
Aphallia – a rare condition where a XY male is born without a penis. As of 2017, only 100 cases have been reported in literature.[46]
Aromatase deficiency – a disorder which, in females, is characterized by androgen excess and estrogen deficiency, and can result in inappropriate virilization, though without pseudohermaphroditism (i.e., genitals are phenotypically appropriate) (with the exception of the possible incidence of clitoromegaly). Aromatase deficiency can also be caused by mutations in P450 oxidoreductase gene.[47]
Aromatase excess syndrome (familial hyperestrogenism) - a condition that causes excessive estrogen production, resulting in feminization without pseudohermaphroditism (i.e., male genitalia at birth and female secondary sexual characteristics at puberty) in males and hyperfeminization in females.[48]
Campomelic dysplasia – a condition caused by de novo autosomal dominant mutations in the SOX9 gene, causing bowing of the limbs, sex reversal in around two thirds of 46,XY males (but not in 46,XX females), and respiratory insufficiency. While in roughly 95% of cases, death occurs in the neonatal period due to respiratory distress, those that live past infancy typically survive to become adults.[49]
Clitoromegaly – a clitoris that is considered larger than average. While clitoromegaly may be a symptom of an intersex condition, it may also be considered a normal variation in clitoris size. Clitoromegaly causes no health issues. Surgical reduction of the clitoris or its complete removal may be performed to normalize the appearance of the genitalia. While female genital mutilation is outlawed in many countries, reduction or the removal of the clitoris in cases of clitoromegaly are generally exempt, despite the fact that it is a nontherapeutic and sexually damaging surgery. Clitoromegaly may also be caused by females using testosterone or anabolic steroids for purposes related to female to male gender transition or bodybuilding.
Combined 17α-hydroxylase/17,20-lyase deficiency – a condition which presents as a combination of the symptoms of congenital adrenal hyperplasia and isolated 17,20-lyase deficiency. See those two conditions for more information.[50]
Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) – a condition which completely affects a genetic male's ability to recognize androgens. It is considered a form of androgen insensitivity syndrome and is the most severe form. People with complete androgen insensitivity are raised as females and usually do not discover they are genetic males until they experience amenorrhoea in their late teens or they need medical intervention due to a hernia caused by their undescended testes.[51][52] Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome results in a genetic male having a vagina, clitoris, and breasts which are capable of breastfeeding. However, they will not have ovaries or a uterus. Because they do not have ovaries or sufficiently developed testicles, people with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome are infertile.[53]
Congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) – a condition that causes excessive androgen production, which causes excessive virilization. It is most problematic in genetic females, where severe virilization can result in funding [?] of labia and an enlarged clitoris.[54][55] Females with this condition are usually fertile, with the ability to become pregnant and give birth. The salt-wasting variety of this condition is fatal in infants if left untreated.[56]
Denys–Drash syndrome and the related Frasier syndrome – similar rare conditions arising from de novo autosomal dominant mutations in the WT1 gene, causing symptoms ranging from undervirilization to complete sex reversal with persistent Müllerian ducts in affected 46,XY males (but not in 46,XX females).[57] The disorders are invariably fatal before the age of 15, causing kidney failure due to nephrotic syndrome.[58]
Estrogen insensitivity syndrome (EIS) – the estrogen counterpart to androgen insensitivity syndrome. Extremely rare, with only one verified case having been reported; a biological male presented with tall stature, a heightened risk of osteoporosis, and sterility.[59]
Gartner's duct cyst – persistent Wolffian Ducts in XX females.
Gonadal dysgenesis – any congenital developmental disorder of the reproductive system characterized by a progressive loss of primordial germ cells on the developing gonads of an embryo.
Herlyn-Werner-Wunderlich syndrome – a disorder where the Müllerian ducts fail to fuse during embryonic development, leading to the presence of 2 vaginas, 2 uteruses, and a single kidney. Can also affect the spleen, bladder and other urogenital structures.[60][61]
Isolated 17,20-lyase deficiency – a condition that is characterized by either partial or complete inability to produce androgens and estrogens.[62] Results in partial or complete feminization and undervirilization in males and in a delayed, reduced, or absent puberty in both sexes, in turn causing sexual infantilism and infertility, among other symptoms.[63]
Klinefelter syndrome (47,XXY and XXY syndrome) – a condition that describes a male born with at least one extra X chromosome. Though the most common variation is 47,XXY, a man may also be 48,XXXY or 49,XXXXY. It is a common occurrence, affecting 1 in 500 to 1,000 men.[64] About 1 in 50,000 men are affected by variant 48,XXXY (Two extra X) and 1 in 100,000 men affected by variant 49,XXXXY (Three extra X).[65] While some men may have no issues related to the syndrome, some may experience gynecomastia, micropenis, cognitive difficulties, hypogonadism, reduced fertility/infertility, and/or little or no facial hair. Testosterone therapy may be pursued by men who desire a more masculine appearance and those with gynecomastia may opt to undergo a reduction mammoplasty. Men who wish to father children may be able to do so with the help of IVF.[66][4][67]
Leydig cell hypoplasia – a condition solely affecting biological males which is characterized by partial or complete inactivation of the luteinizing hormone receptor, resulting in stymied androgen production. Patients may present at birth with a fully female phenotype, ambiguous genitalia, or only mild genital defects such as micropenis and hypospadias. Upon puberty, sexual development is either impaired or fully absent.[68][69]
Lipoid congenital adrenal hyperplasia – an endocrine disorder that arises from defects in the earliest stages of steroid hormone synthesis: the transport of cholesterol into the mitochondria and the conversion of cholesterol to pregnenolone—the first step in the synthesis of all steroid hormones.[70][71]
Mild androgen insensitivity syndrome (MAIS) – a condition which mildly affects a genetic male's ability to recognize androgens. It is considered a form of androgen insensitivity syndrome and is considered the least severe form. While men generally do not need any specialized medical care related to this form, mild androgen insensitivity syndrome may result in gynecomastia and hypospadias. Neither gynecomastia nor hypospadias require surgical intervention or adversely affect a man's health though some men may opt to undergo surgery to remove their breasts and/or repair their hypospadias. Men with mild androgen insensitivity syndrome may have reduced fertility.
Mixed gonadal dysgenesis – a condition of unusual and asymmetrical gonadal development leading to an unassigned sex differentiation. A number of differences have been reported in the karyotype, most commonly a mosaicism 45,X/ 46,XY.[72]
Ovotesticular disorder (also called true hermaphroditism) – a rare condition where an individual has both ovarian and testicular tissue.[28] It is the rarest DSD with at least 500 cases being reported in literature.[73]
Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (PAIS) – a condition which partially affects a genetic male's ability to recognize androgens. It is considered a form of androgen insensitivity syndrome and while it is not as severe as complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, it is more severe than mild androgen insensitivity syndrome.[74] Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome causes major problems with gender assignment because it causes ambiguous genitalia such as a micropenis or clitoromegaly in addition to breast development. People with partial androgen insensitivity syndrome who are assigned as males may undergo testosterone therapy to virilize their body while those who are assigned as females may undergo a surgical reduction of the clitoris and/ or estrogen therapy.[75]
Penoscrotal transposition (PST) – a group of congenital defects involving an abnormal spatial arrangement of penis and scrotum.
Persistent Müllerian duct syndrome – a condition where fallopian tubes, uterus, or the upper part of the vagina are present in an otherwise normal male.[76]
Pseudovaginal perineoscrotal hypospadias (PPSH) – a form of ambiguous genitalia which results in a phallic structure that is smaller than a penis but larger than a clitoris, a chordee, hypospadias, and a shallow vagina.[77]
Swyer syndrome (Pure Gonadal Dysgenesis or XY gonadal dysgenesis) – a type of hypogonadism in a person whose karyotype is 46,XY. The person is externally female with streak gonads, and left untreated, will not experience puberty. Such gonads are typically surgically removed (as they have a significant risk of developing tumors) and a typical medical treatment would include hormone replacement therapy with female hormones.[78][79]
Turner syndrome (Ullrich-Turner syndrome and gonadal dysgenesis) – a condition that describes a female born with only one X chromosome or with an abnormal X chromosome, making her karotype 45,X0. It occurs in 1 in 2,000 to 5,000 females.[80] Turner syndrome can cause numerous health and development problems, including but not limited to short stature, lymphedema, infertility, webbed neck, coarctation of the aorta, ADHD, amenorrhoea, and obesity.[81]
Müllerian agenesis (Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser syndrome or vaginal agenesis) – a condition that causes the uterus and other reproductive organs in a 46,XX female to be small or absent, as well as the vaginal canal itself. It affects 1 out of 4,500 to 5,000 females and can also come with skeletal or endocrine system issues at conception.[82][83]
XX testicular DSD – a condition where an individual with an XX karyotype has a male appearance. Genitalia can range from normal to ambiguous genitalia.[84] It is estimated to occur in 1 in 20,000 males.[85]

Of course, one can just categorically state there are only two biological sexes and try to force everyone into one of their two categories, but nature and biology provide us with a lot of examples to the contrary and despite their wish to simplify the matter to suit their preference, it is just not factual or true.
Gender is a subject different from the biology of sexual differentiation, as is the subject of trans or gender dysphoria. The debate about bathrooms, locker rooms and sports teams is also separate from the biology of these matters. None of these are easy subjects with simple answers. Lets's just put doors on all the stalls, changing rooms in all the locker rooms and decide about sports on a case by case basis. Only about 14 reported trans athletes in the entire NCAA programs. Increasingly to some facts and science don't matter but hopefully in philosophy at least some degree of logic applies.

But that simply kicks the can back into a situation we were already in. — AmadeusD

Yeah, what did I think making that post? It's never been the facts that are at issue.

What is unreasonable is to simply defer to 'grey area' instead of figuring out the best uses of words for our purposes. — AmadeusD

Which I don't think I do:

So, disambiguating gender has been done extremely well, by almost everyone but weirdos. — AmadeusD

And that's, I think, where the disjunct is: We're likely not agreeing who counts as "weirdo". I really don't think I should have made the post. I simply don't have the stamina to suss this out. Certainly not now. I'm tired.

:up:

Yet again with the equivocation.

You are correct to say that the transgender man is not a biological man but you are incorrect to suggest that the transgender man believes himself to be a biological man. So your claim that he suffers from a delusion stems from a fallacy. — Michael

The point is that they think that they are a type of man. I have been asking you what type of man do they think they are? You might say trans-man, but what does that mean? How is a trans-man different than a biological one - specifically. We keep going in circles because you fail to provide a specific example of what it means to be a sociological-man or psychological-man (even though psychology is rooted in biology), as opposed to a biological man.

I don't quite understand your question. Are you suggesting that 3 year olds do in fact know that some of the children in their class have a penis and some have a vagina, and that this biological difference dictates social differences? Or are you suggesting that 3 year olds don't understand that some of the children in their class are called "boys" and some are called "girls", and that those who are called "boys" and those who are called "girls" tend to wear different clothes and play with different toys and are referred to using different pronouns? — Michael

I'm not suggesting anything. I am taking your own suggestions as if they are true and trying to reconcile them because they are contradictory.

Sure, children can form a concept that gender is based solely on what one wears and the pronouns that are used to refer to others, but then they would only be getting part of the story. This would be like a child hearing a curse word and then using it without a full understanding of how and when it should be used.

Why do some people wear dresses and why do some wear pants? Children are curious (I'll show you mine if you show me yours). They will eventually figure it out.

It doesn’t matter what you call it. Which bathroom should the transgender man who has had genital surgery use? The women's bathroom or the men's bathroom? Given that you mentioned sex parts to explain why we have separate bathrooms for men and women it’s a pertinent question. — Michael

You're the one denying something from entering a bathroom based on whether that something is artificial or not.

The point is that they think that they are a type of man. I have been asking you what type of man do they think they are? You might say trans-man, but what does that mean? How is a trans-man different than a biological one - specifically. We keep going in circles because you fail to provide a specific example of what it means to be a sociological-man or psychological-man (even though psychology is rooted in biology), as opposed to a biological man. — Harry Hindu

A transgender man believes that his sex is female and his gender is male.
A transgender woman believes that her sex is male and her gender is female.

Quoting from WHO:

Sex "refers to the different biological and physiological characteristics of females, males and intersex persons, such as chromosomes, hormones and reproductive organs."

Gender "refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time."

Sure, children can form a concept that gender is based solely on what one wears and the pronouns that are used to refer to others, but then they would only be getting part of the story. This would be like a child hearing a curse word and then using it without a full understanding of how and when it should be used. — Harry Hindu

And children identify as belonging to one gender or another at this very young age, most often before they have any understanding of biological sex. Once this gender identity is established it is mostly irreversible.

You're the one denying something from entering a bathroom based on whether that something is artificial or not. — Harry Hindu

No I'm not.

You are the one who claimed that one's sex parts determine which bathroom one should be allowed to use.

I don't know why you continue to avoid answering the question.

Should transgender men who have had genital surgery use the men's bathroom or the women's bathroom?

You have two very simple answers to choose from, so just choose. Stop with the tiresome deflection.

Gender "refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time." — Michael

Which is to say that gender as a social construction is sexism. Which also means that to change gender, or to be gender fluid, would mean you would need to travel to different cultures or through time.

And children identify as belonging to one gender or another at this very young age, most often before they have any understanding of biological sex. — Michael

How do they identify with one gender or another when gender is a social construction? Wouldn't it be society that determines their gender?

Should transgender men who have had genital surgery use the men's bathroom or the women's bathroom?

You have two very simple answers to choose from, so just choose. Stop with the tiresome deflection. — Michael

Talk about hypocrisy. I'm not deflecting. You are as well as cherry-picking. If gender is a social construction them having genital surgery has nothing to do with gender. You keep conflating the two. Using one particular bathroom or the other does not affirm one's gender, so I don' know why you keep bringing up genital surgery in a thread about gender as a social, sexist construct.

Talk about hypocrisy. I'm not deflecting. You are as well as cherry-picking. If gender is a social construction them having genital surgery has nothing to do with gender. You keep conflating the two. Using one particular bathroom or the other does not affirm one's gender, so I don' know why you keep bringing up genital surgery in a thread about gender as a social, sexist construct. — Harry Hindu

I'm bringing it up because you object to transgender men using the men's bathroom and transgender women using the women's bathroom.

I'm bringing it up because you claimed that one's sex parts determine which bathroom one should use.

So just answer the question.

Should transgender men who have had genital surgery use the men's bathroom or the women's bathroom?

Your continued unwillingness to provide an answer is incredibly telling.

How do they identify with one gender or another when gender is a social construction? — Harry Hindu

This is like asking how can we learn a language when language is a social construction. It's just something the human brain and mind does. The specifics of how and why the human brain and mind does what it does is a very complicated question that neuroscientists and psychologists are still trying to answer.

The reality is – despite your objections (and your conspiratorial accusation that this is some left-wing political fabrication?) – is that a) gender exists, that b) gender is distinct from sex, that c) people can and do identify as belonging to a gender that is atypical of their sex, and that d) this gender identity is an integral aspect of one's psyche that developed and became fixed at a very young age.

This is like asking how can we learn a language when language is a social construction. — Michael

No, it's not.

I'm bringing it up because you object to transgender men using the men's bathroom and transgender women using the women's bathroom. — Michael

Yes, because bathrooms are divided by sex and not gender.

It's really that simple. It is you that is conflating gender as a social construction and sex by asking about bathrooms.

I have already pointed out that women use the men's bathroom in certain circumstances and men using the women's bathroom in certain circumstances, so it doesn't matter which one someone uses, as long as they don't believe that using one or the other is affirming anything other than humans need to take a piss and shit from time to time. Just as wearing long hair and earrings isn't affirming a gender either because both sexes can wear either, or both, and it has no bearing on their gender or sex.

Your bathroom argument is like you keep asking if it's okay for a man to have long hair and earrings. Sure it is, but doing so does not affirm their gender since both women and men wear earrings and have long hair. It's a red herring.

Yes, because bathrooms are divided by sex and not gender. — Harry Hindu

Why?

I asked you this before and you said "because it's where we uncover our sex parts".

So how do you account for those who have had genital surgery? Should transgender men who have had genital surgery continue to use the women's bathroom – because their sex is female – or should they use the men's bathroom – because their sex parts, even though artificial, are like those of biological men?

It's a red herring. — Harry Hindu

No, it's not. That's why we have such terms as "gender non-conforming". This obviously doesn't mean "sex non-conforming" because what does it mean to be sex non-conforming? Does it mean to act as if one has an XX karyotype (even though one doesn't)? Does it mean to act as if one has ovaries (even though one doesn't)?

Gender exists, and it is distinct from sex, and people identify as belonging to a gender that is atypical of their sex. This is the reality that you need to accept.

Yes, because bathrooms are divided by sex and not gender.
— Harry Hindu

Why? — Michael

I also said that women have used the men's bathroom and men have used the women's bathroom, but you keep cherry-picking. So generally speaking, bathrooms are divided by sex and using one bathroom or the other does not affirm one's gender. It doesn't even affirm one's sex. Social constructions do not affirm anything other than that you live in a particular culture.

Using one bathroom or another is a social construction. A social construction based on one's sex, not gender. The way you speak of gender as a social construction means that gender would be a society's expectations of the sexes - that they use the appropriate bathroom based on their sex. So the social construction states that males use the men's bathroom and females use the women's bathroom. The rules are only enforced when someone enters the other bathroom for reasons other than to simply piss or shit.

No, it's not. That's why we have such terms as "gender non-conforming". — Michael

What are they not conforming to if not the social construction? It is their feeling, or psychology that is not conforming to the social construction, and it is the social construction that you are defining as gender, not their personal feeling that is the anti-thesis of the what is accepted socially.

I also said that women have used the men's bathroom and men have used the women's bathroom, but you keep cherry-picking. So generally speaking, bathrooms are divided by sex and using one bathroom or the other does not affirm one's gender. It doesn't even affirm one's sex. Social constructions do not affirm anything other than that you live in a particular culture.

Using one bathroom or another is a social construction. A social construction based on one's sex, not gender. The way you speak of gender as a social construction means that gender would be a society's expectations of the sexes - that they use the appropriate bathroom based on their sex. So the social construction states that males use the men's bathroom and females use the women's bathroom. The rules are only enforced when someone enters the other bathroom for reasons other than to simply piss or shit. — Harry Hindu

So should the transgender man who has had genital surgery continue to use the women's bathroom because his sex is female?

Or should the transgender man who has had genital surgery use the men's bathroom because he has a surgically-constructed phallus?

Will you ever just answer the question?

What are they not conforming to if not the social construction? It is their feeling, or psychology that is not conforming to the social construction, and it is the social construction that you are defining as gender, not their personal feeling that is the anti-thesis of the what is accepted socially. — Harry Hindu

This isn't difficult Harry.

Gender identity is to gender as being a Christian is to Christianity.

And just as nobody gets to dictate which religion you belong to (even though they may try), nobody gets to dictate which gender you belong to.

Instead of going round in a loop of disagreement I think it would be useful to get your understanding of why you think society and (most) women object to trans women in female spaces. Also, what constitutes being a woman?
Is it incumbent on everyone else to fall into line with someone’s view of who they are?

We also don't live in a world with unisex bathrooms. Abolishing clothes, or making all clothes unisex instead of having distinctly Women's clothes and Men's clothes, would abolish transgenderism. Your goal for a unisex society would effectively be a society in which transgenderism would not exist. — Harry Hindu

We separate bathrooms by sex because it is an area where we uncover our sex parts. It is obvious why we categorize urinating with sex because they use the same parts. Gender, as separate from sex and biology, does not share those same intimate relations, so would play no role in determining which bathroom you use. Your urinary parts is what separates bathrooms, not how you dress. It just seems creepy to advocate for men to be physically closer to women when their pants are down. — Harry Hindu

Or just disperse with the notion that women should wear dresses and men should wear pants. If we did that then wearing a dress or pants would not be a form of gender expression. Many women wear pants already and still consider themselves women, so what exactly are trans-people saying when they wear a dress and high heels and claim that is a form of gender expression? Men wear earrings and have long hair and do not consider themselves women.

With this in mind, trans-genderism would actually be a man or woman doing what is expected of the other sex while maintaining that they are still the sex they were born as. A man wearing a dress and still considers himself a man would be a trans-gendered person. A man wearing a dress and believes that now makes him a woman has a delusional disorder. — Harry Hindu

First, a toilet doesn't care if you have one sex organ. . . the other. . . or both so the discussion or back and forth your having with @Michael sort of ends there as regards your sex organs being the SOLE determinant of which bathroom you go into.

Second, you say we should just advocate for gender neutrality as if that is so simple a goal to obtain nor question whether it is in fact obtainable at all. Especially since the simplest examples of choosing what clothes you wear doesn't exhaust the greater depth of ascribed gender differences from mannerisms, voice inflection, word choice, social groups, personal interests, etc. To be 'gender neutral' would be to completely annihilate any statistically significant sex differences across the bulk of these aspects across our society to the point that any differences can be seen as mere random fluctuation.

I can't say any of that would be successful or that higher level meta-gender roles would arise regardless more out of biologically pernicious psychological faculties which couldn't be reasoned away or culturally ironed out.

In fact, it dooms any sense of ideological groupings not based on random assignments of biological characteristics to be thrown into the flames. A women is someone who has these characteristics but does that then imply anything about you being a feminist because you happen to have the same characteristics? Biological categories can be too coarse a categorization or classification scheme to actually capture real group mentalities. It therefore makes any group unification and motivation rather a taxing or difficult affair as. . . what is it that is supposed to actually band them together at all besides merely listing a series of irrelevant biological traits they have in common?

This is the feminist trap as those who advocate for groups as such to be banded underneath have to have a particular ideological motivation beyond the bare commonalities. Otherwise it dooms it to contrivance and irrelevancy.

This would extend far beyond the bathroom issue to all aspects of society in general.

In the opposite direction, motivating for such a high focus on any such biological features and their resultant 'effects' later in development from deterministic or statistical viewpoint is just asking for stereotypes to be born. New gender roles and new social splits to be made. Whether positive, negative, neutral or otherwise.

You can only do so much in getting rid of the 'irrelevant gender roles' until biological necessity, determinism, and essentialism bite you in the back as regards stubborn statistically significant differences which can never fully be 'dispersed' with.

Instead of going round in a loop of disagreement I think it would be useful to get your understanding of why you think society and (most) women object to trans women in female spaces. — Malcolm Parry

I'm sure there are many reasons, just as I'm sure there are many reasons why most men in the UK object to trans men using the men's bathroom.

A better question to ask is; are there any good reasons to object to trans men using men's spaces and trans women using women's spaces? When it comes to something like sports, I think there are. But when it comes to something like toilets? I've already addressed the fact that if safety is our main concern then it's better to let trans men use the men's bathroom and trans women using the women's bathroom.

Also, what constitutes being a woman? — Malcolm Parry

Either having a female sex or having a female gender.

Having a female sex refers to having been born with some combination of an XX karyotype, ova-producing ovaries, a womb, breasts, and a vagina (admitting of the existence of intersex people that sometimes make such a classification tricky).

Having a female gender refers to identifying as belonging to the social and cultural group that is typically occupied by those with a female sex, and often feeling most comfortable in expressing oneself in a manner mostly consistent with this social and cultural group.

Is it incumbent on everyone else to fall into line with someone’s view of who they are? — Malcolm Parry

If you want to be a decent person, then yes. Otherwise you're just an ass.

So should the transgender man who has had genital surgery continue to use the women's bathroom because his sex is female?

Or should the transgender man who has had genital surgery use the men's bathroom because he has a surgically-constructed phallus?

Will you ever just answer the question? — Michael

I already did but you've been cherry-picking.

According to your definition of gender as a social construct, gender would be the agreement among members of a society that females use the women's bathroom and males use the men's bathroom. In other words, gender is an expectation, or an agreement, that the sexes, not gender, behave in a certain way. Gender would be the agreement - the social construct, and sex - the biological construct. So, I'm not sure that you really understand what a social construction is. To conflate the social construct with the biological construct would be sexism.

Which bathroom should a woman that had a double-mastectomy from cancer use? Did her sex change because she had a double mastectomy? Does having a double mastectomy change one's gender (society's expectation about which bathroom she uses)? No, so she uses the women's bathroom, but she can use the men's bathroom in certain situations, like when there is a long line at the women's bathroom or to assist her elderly father.

Gender identity is to gender as being a Christian is to Christianity. — Michael

Isn't this what I said before in equating trans-genderism to a delusion. Both trans-genderism and Christianity are forms of mass-delusion. So nice of you to finally get the point.

Is it incumbent on everyone else to fall into line with someone’s view of who they are?
— Malcolm Parry

If you want to be a decent person, then yes. Otherwise you're just an ass. — Michael

Yet you have described me in terms that I do not identify and I doubt that Malcolm identifies as an ass. Hypocrite.

Isn't this what I said before in equating trans-genderism to a delusion. Both trans-genderism and Christianity are forms of mass-delusion. So nice of you to finally get the point. — Harry Hindu

You're being too cavalier with your use of the term "delusion". Those who believe in Christianity do not suffer from a psychosis.

And you appear to have missed the point. I am not saying that gender is a belief-system like Christianity. I am providing an example of what it means to identify as belonging to a social construct because you seem to have so much difficulty understanding this.

I already did but you've been cherry-picking.

According to your definition of gender as a social construct, gender would be the agreement among members of a society that females use the women's bathroom and males use the men's bathroom. In other words, gender is an expectation, or an agreement, that the sexes, not gender, behave in a certain way. Gender would be the agreement - the social construct, and sex - the biological construct. So, I'm not sure that you really understand what a social construction is. To conflate the social construct with the biological construct would be sexism.

Which bathroom should a woman that had a double-mastectomy from cancer use? Did her sex change because she had a double mastectomy? Does having a double mastectomy change one's gender (society's expectation about which bathroom she uses)? No, so she uses the women's bathroom, but she can use the men's bathroom in certain situations, like when there is a long line at the women's bathroom or to assist her elderly father. — Harry Hindu

Should the transgender man who has had genital surgery continue to use the women's bathroom?

Should the transgender man who has had genital surgery continue to use the women's bathroom? — Michael

The question was answered. Did having genital surgery change their sex? I asked the same question in my example of a woman with a double mastectomy.

You're being too cavalier with your use of the term "delusion". Those who believe in Christianity do not suffer from a psychosis.

And you appear to have missed the point. I am not saying that gender is like Christianity. I am providing an example of what it means to identify as belonging to a social construct because you seem to have some difficulty understanding this. — Michael

It was your (poor) choice to use Christianity as an example.

And I said that to identify as a social construct is sexist.

The question was answered. — Harry Hindu

No it hasn't.

I want a "yes" or a "no", not a deflection.

Should the transgender man who has had genital surgery continue to use the women's bathroom?

And I said that to identify as a social construct is sexist. — Harry Hindu

No it's not. It's just a psychological reality.