Comments

  • Why are 90% of farmers very right wing?
    Today I was reading Revolutionary Spring: Fighting for a New World 1848–1849 by Christopher Clark. It describes some of the counter-revolutionary acts of the German farmers and their generally suspicious or contemptuous attitude to the urban liberals and working class radicals. Urban movements demanding employment were looked down upon by the farmers and peasants as ragtag mobs of unemployable layabouts.

    It occurred to me that this was because economic and social change was affecting urban workers much more than it was affecting rural inhabitants, but all the farmers could see from their relatively stable social and economic positions were lazy vagabonds. As a result, they began to see their relative stability as under threat from those urban radicals.

    And as has often been the case, those urban radicals failed to reach out to the farmers and peasants who might have supported them.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    In the "Relation to System" section there's a remarkable passage that charts the rise of the philosophical system and accounts for this in starkly Marxist terms, i.e., in terms of class and ideology:

    In the history of philosophy the systems of the seventeenth century had an especially compensatory purpose. The same ratio which, in unison with the interests of the bourgeois class, smashed the feudal order of society and its intellectual reflection, scholastic ontology, into rubble, promptly felt the fear of chaos while facing the ruins, their own handiwork. They trembled before what ominously continued under their realm of domination and which waxed in proportion to their own power. This fear shaped the earliest beginnings of the mode of conduct entirely constitutive of bourgeois thought, of hurriedly neutralizing every step towards emancipation through the strengthening of the social order. In the shadows of the incompletion of its emancipation, the bourgeois consciousness had to fear being cashiered by a more progressive class; it suspected that because it was not the entire freedom, it only produced the travesty of such; that is why it expanded its autonomy theoretically into the system, which at the same time took on the likeness of its compulsory mechanisms.

    Hegel, Nietzsche, and Foucault all do this kind of thing (though not from the same political perspective), and we call it genealogy. I'm very partial to it, myself, but the question that always comes up, at least in my own mind, is how literally are we supposed to take it? Adorno is not really doing history, so what is it? Does he really mean that the philosophical systems of the 17th century were created with the aim of cementing the bourgeois social order so as to prevent more radical social change?

    On the one hand, of course not. That is not what Descartes, Leibniz, and Spinoza intended, and it was not close to being their motivation. Neither were they brainwashed puppets of the bourgeoisie or consciously taking on the role of middle-class heroes fighting the intellectual fight against the ancien régime on one side and the proletariat on the other.

    On the other hand, yes. These philosophical systems functioned ideologically in literally the way he describes, and they literally seemed like good ideas at the time partly for the reasons he gives. The trick is just to know how to interpret these genealogies: not as accounts of the intentions of the people in question, i.e., not as empirical history, but as speculative reconstructions of cultural tendencies and the way that these ideas functioned socially and historically.

    So I think it's somewhere between literal and metaphorical, not exactly one or the other. That said, it does seem extremely schematic and therefore a bit crude; it's not much different from the standard Marxist narrative of the bourgeois superstructure in the period following feudalism and prior to full-on industrial capitalism.

    EDIT: But I think we have to always keep in mind Adorno's dictum that "only exaggeration is true." The crudeness is intentional: it's the bluntness of a sledgehammer.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno


    Very interesting post, MU, I like it. I think your interpretative scheme of death/religion, profound/profane, sacrosanct/blasphemy, is inventive and enlightening. I think it's a good model, or instance, of what Adorno is referring to—or else a metaphor (or both). I don't think it reveals his central referent, as you seem to be suggesting, but it's a good way of thinking about it anyway. I particularly like the idea of the critique of ideology as profanity.

    Certainly theology, which he mentions, is an instance of ideology in the garb of profound philosophy, justifying the submission to authority by appeals to the soul's salvation and the Absolute, etc. Adorno is using this as a model of the problem situation.

    This brings us squarely to the issue of suffering. And, I must admit that I do not really know how Adorno relates these two. So I will speculate. I suppose that this resistance to ideology, this renunciation of the sacrosanct, is itself an expression of suffering, as if that profound, or sacrosanct ideology is oppressive. This is similar to what Plato says in "The Republic" about the relation between the philosopher and the ruler, a relation known as 'the philosopher king'. The philosopher knows that the job of ruling is the worst possible job, and in no wants to do that job. So the philosopher will not move to take that position until the suffering of having to live under the punishment of the prevailing rulers is worse than the pain of having to rule. It is the suffering caused by poor leadership which brings out the good leader.

    So to relate this to what Adorno says about "the need to give voice to suffering". Ideology gains its power of authority through the appearance of profundity. But the ideology may itself be a medium of oppression, by which objectivity weighs on the subject as suffering. The facade of profundity is what needs to be broken, through the speculative moment. This is the expression of suffering, profanity.
    Metaphysician Undercover

    Well said. Yes: profound, sacrosanct ideology is oppressive. I would add that it is oppressive in that it justifies the material state of affairs that oppresses people in actuality. And yes: to resist ideology, renouncing the sacrosanct, is to give voice to suffering, the suffering of those being oppressed.

    At this point I can no longer postpone my attempt to interpret this:

    The power of the existent constructs the facades into which the consciousness crashes. It must try to break through them. This alone would snatch away the postulate from the profundity of ideology. The speculative moment survives in such resistance: what does not allow itself to be governed by the given facts, transcends them even in the closest contact with objects and in the renunciation of sacrosanct transcendence. What in thought goes beyond that to which it is bound in its resistance is its freedom. It follows the expressive urge of the subject. The need to give voice to suffering is the condition of all truth. For suffering is the objectivity which weighs on the subject; what it experiences as most subjective, its expression, is objectively mediated.


    The need to give voice to suffering is the condition of all truth.

    This is not just a brilliant line and a stirring exhortation; it is also a radical challenge to standard theories of truth which is meant to be taken entirely seriously.

    In the words of Ben Shapiro, facts don't care about your feelings. Indeed, they don't care about anyone's feelings. And that's the problem with facts, or rather with the Enlightenment rationality that takes facts as the be-all and end-all of truth (and therefore knowledge). Adorno wants a more expansive concept of truth, one that doesn't submit to Enlightenment's split between facts and values. (Another option would be to reject truth entirely, but to do so would be to embrace nihilism and to give up on critique).

    Truth for Adorno is the reality and injustice of suffering. Since, where the most important matters are concerned, the real is unjust, truth should not be neutral.

    Examples help. A factual report on the Holocaust that ignores witness testimony is not true in Adorno's expanded sense. We could think of this as a lie of omission (which is not to say it's intentional deception). And this is a signpost to another aspect, found in the work of Foucault: the idea that a truth that depends on the suppression of marginalized voices is suspect—and in Adorno's terms, not really a truth at all. You might say, then, that facts are lies of oppression.

    But it's not just that facts are not enough; it's that knowledge in the form of facts is already ideological, is value-laden without knowing it (or without saying so). To uncover the truth then is not just to add more, or different kinds of, information, e.g., including formerly marginalized voices, but to critique the facts themselves to reaveal the truth negatively. You can see this better with a fact like, workers are free in capitalist society because in taking jobs they voluntarily sign contracts. This fact can be criticized to reveal that the company and the worker are not equal parties except in a narrow legal sense, and that the choice between the burdensome job and destitution is no choice at all.

    Adorno's condition equally applies in art. Compare Goya's Black Paintings and his Disasters of War series with propaganda art that glorifies war or labour. I don't think I'm using a special notion of truth when I say that the former are truthful and the latter are not. And the former are truthful because they give voice to suffering, not only by actually depicting it but by explicitly going against both the style and the content of paintings that celebrate war.


    For suffering is the objectivity which weighs on the subject; what it experiences as most subjective, its expression, is objectively mediated.

    Suffering is not just a private feeling but is a material, social reality with real causes. The subject suffers under objective conditions. The inability of a South African miner to stay awake and concentrate for half an hour on the book he wants to read after a 12-hour shift in a gold mine, his fatigue exacerbated by his chronic silicosis, is both the most personal and private of problems and also an example of the economic injustice of capitalist society.
  • Why are 90% of farmers very right wing?
    I always assumed the original resistance of independent farmers to socialism was that land reform rarely distinguished between large landlords and smaller farms (and that forced collectivization was a disaster, plus the whole kulak designation, or similar schemes in China—both later developments, but foreshadowed early on by some policies). Had land reform been handled better, it might not have shaken out that way.Count Timothy von Icarus

    Yep.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    But this section goes deeper than that, since he is talking about his own mode of expression, i.e., it's meta. Expression in language that aims to uncover reality in the way described above should itself enact dialectics in its mode of expression. Thus, we get Adorno's way of writing: style as substance, form as content (I'm glad we've finally got back to this topic, which I think I mentioned on the first page of this thread). Rather than obscurantism, this is the fullest stringency (EDIT: or maybe better put, the best balance between expression and stringency). He does not want to explain and describe, but to performatively expose. The same applies to negative dialectics as applies to screenwriting: show don't tell.Jamal

    So how does this play out in the text? Take the following sentence as an example.

    The speculative moment survives in such resistance: what does not allow itself to be governed by the given facts, transcends them even in the closest contact with objects and in the renunciation of sacrosanct transcendence.

    The thing to notice is how compressed it is. It awkwardly crams in too many thoughts. I would word it more naturally using multiple sentences, one following the other with a linear logic. For instance:

    The speculative moment, which does not allow itself to be governed by the given facts, survives in such resistance. It goes beyond the facts while remaining in the closest contact with objects. Furthermore, it does so while renouncing the sacrosanct transcendence of dogmatic metaphysics.

    My version is easier to read because it's laid out in a series of steps, whereas the original is all squashed together. But it also kind of defuses the tension. The original's very awkwardness is meant to make us actually feel the tensions and paradoxes. Notice also that in my version I removed any mention of "transcendence" in reference to going beyond the facts, so the contradiction of immanent trascendence did not appear. For Adorno, this is to hide what's important, which is to hold the contradictions open.

    You might say that my re-write is a middlebrow petit-bourgeois deradicalized version. Maybe that describes all of my posts in this group?

    EDIT: It just occurred to me: Adorno's style is mimesis in action, showing in the form of his writing the real contradictions of the world.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    EDIT2: Also I'm finding myself scratching my head in the first paragraph of Portrayal (Darstellung) -- Darstellung contrasts with Vorstellung, which is what I'm gathering to be the difference between the importance of Portrayal in philosophy, at the beginning, and how it is not just science at the end.

    Vorstellung is usually translated as "Representation", and in Kant is important to scientific knowledge. So I understand that much. Darstellung is the "portrayal" -- expression, language -- of the representation. But I'm struggling to see how Darstellung, in Adorno, differentiates philosophy from science at the end somehow and that's what I'm puzzling over:

    "If the moment of expression tries to be anything more, it degenerates into a point of view; were it to relinquish the moment of expression and the obligation of portrayal, it would converge with science."
    Moliere

    Maybe something like this. Darstellung or the moment of expression is the deliberate interpretation of the given facts, whereas Vorstellung, the representation, is the given fact itself. The latter may also be a product of interpretation, but this interpretation is unknowing and ideological, such that things that are the product of ideology are taken as given. Darstellung on the other hand is an interpretation of an interpretation; that is, a re-appraisal, by means of expression in concepts and language, of the given facts. Or better put, it is the construction of a space, by means of dialectical confrontations and movements, in which reality can reveal itself.

    The freedom of philosophy is nothing other than the capacity of giving voice to this unfreedom. If the moment of expression tries to be anything more, it degenerates into a point of view; were it to relinquish the moment of expression and the obligation of portrayal, it would converge with science.

    On one side of the tightrope we fall into mere personal opinion (or a scream of pain), and on the other side it's scientism. Darstellung controls expression by applying a method (dialectics, immanent critique), thus avoiding the first danger; and in its speculative nature, its dynamic dialectical nature, and the negativity of its critique, it avoids reification—which means it avoids scientism, since scientism rests on the treatment of dynamic relations as thing-like facts.

    But this section goes deeper than that, since he is talking about his own mode of expression, i.e., it's meta. Expression in language that aims to uncover reality in the way described above should itself enact dialectics in its mode of expression. Thus, we get Adorno's way of writing: style as substance, form as content (I'm glad we've finally got back to this topic, which I think I mentioned on the first page of this thread). Rather than obscurantism, this is the fullest stringency (EDIT: or maybe better put, the best balance between expression and stringency). He does not want to explain and describe, but to performatively expose. The same applies to negative dialectics as applies to screenwriting: show don't tell.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    Though Adorno notes that the responses have been obscure, he wants to speak up in favor of this speculative thinking, or a moment within thinking, whereby the facts, on their face or as read, do not determine thought, but rather produce a facade through his thought must push towards and outward from in order to get closer to the things themselves.

    Only, without a category that determines the thing -- it's non-conceptual. In a way I think I can see the fantasm as the appearance, whereas negative dialectics wishes to get beyond the appearance of facts (themselves conceptual) to the thing.
    Moliere

    Exactly. And the sentence I've bolded hits the nail on the head. Adorno's version of speculative thought is only negative; it doesn't offer a positive dogma consisting of a system of categories.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    Introduction: Speculative Moment

    This section is about speculation and depth, covered mainly in lecture 9. There's something I missed in my post about that lecture, because I didn't pick up on the reference: the meaning of the speculative moment in Hegel's Logic. I'll look at that now.

    The springboard of Hegel's philosophy is the antinomy of pure reason described by Kant in the "Transcendental Dialectic" of the Critique of Pure Reason. Kant showed that reason and in particular speculative metaphysics, in reaching beyond experience, inevitably produces irresolvable contradictions between apparently justified propositions. For instance, here is the first antinomy:

    Thesis: The world has a beginning in time and is also enclosed within bounds as regards space.

    Antithesis: The world has no beginning and no bounds in space, but is infinite as re­gards both time and space.

    And both turn out to be well-supported.

    For Kant, rather than siding with one or the other, philosophy must recognize these contradictions as the result of reason's attempt to transcend the limits of possible experience (in this case seeking the unconditioned totality of the world), an attempt which, though natural, is bound to fail. So one of the major tasks of transcendental philosophy is critical restraint: to confine reason within the bounds of experience.

    But Hegel sees the antinomies not as failures of reason or "dialectical illusions," as Kant put it, but as revealing the legitimate, and necessary, dialectical movement of thought. So contradiction is the engine of truth, which unfolds through that dialectical movement in phases, or moments:

    Abstract (thesis)
            ↓
    Negative (antithesis)
            ↓
    Speculative/Concrete (synthesis)
    

    Another version looks like this:

    Understanding (thesis)
            ↓
    Dialectic (antithesis)
            ↓
    Speculation (synthesis)
    

    Thus, in Kantian terms you could say that for Hegel the synthesis, also known as the speculative moment, is where reason advances successfully beyond experience, and therefore that the speculative is not as futile as Kant said it was. But it's misleading to put it in those Kantian terms: for Hegel, the speculative moment is not beyond experience at all, since he abandons Kant's dualism and everything becomes immanent to reason. Speculative thought is not a failure but is rather the culmination of reason: rather than reaching beyond experience it grasps experience as the process of reason realizing itself in and through the world.

    Now we come to Adorno. As I see it, he wants to preserve the speculative moment while abandoning its claim to success, reconciliation, and synthesis. For Hegel, the speculative moment and synthesis are almost the same thing, but Adorno prises them apart. The moment then becomes the crisis point that can help to reveal the truth, only negatively: he agrees with Hegel that the speculative moment reveals or points to the truth—and this is why he pays his respects by using the concept at all—but disagrees that this is a conclusive, positive truth in which the antithetical propositions are reconciled.

    @Metaphysician Undercover @Moliere: I agree that the last paragraph is crucial. Every so often we see the central motivation of negative dialectics.

    The power of the existent constructs the facades into which the consciousness crashes. It must try to break through them. This alone would snatch away the postulate from the profundity of ideology. The speculative moment survives in such resistance: what does not allow itself to be governed by the given facts, transcends them even in the closest contact with objects and in the renunciation of sacrosanct transcendence. What in thought goes beyond that to which it is bound in its resistance is its freedom. It follows the expressive urge of the subject. The need to give voice to suffering is the condition of all truth. For suffering is the objectivity which weighs on the subject; what it experiences as most subjective, its expression, is objectively mediated.

    The existent is the social reality whose power produces ideology, i.e., produces conceptual structures that mask the material reality of social relationships. When consciousness breaks through this facade, it takes the ideological claim (a postulate like "the market is rational") out of its fake depth and exposes it as a mask for a historically contingent reality. Mathematical economics naturalizes precarity and suffering—the market doesn't work for everyone, to say the least—thereby justifying the system, as all good ideology must do.

    But I wondered in what way the ideology from which the postulate has been snatched away by our bold consciousnesses was supposed to appear as profound. Well, the idea that the market is rational uses mathematics to dress up transient conditions as universal and necessary—just as law-governed, eternal and fundamental as gravity. The science of economics here has a fake depth, an ideology in the form, not just of a hazy bunch of ideas, but of a mathematical system of equations and graphs.

    Or think of another ideological postulate that still gets a lot of support (e.g., Jordan Peterson): social hierarchies are natural. Once again, the very attempt to naturalize is a semblance of depth, and kind of like the economic example, this is also backed up by a purportedly rigorous science, namely sociobiology or evolutionary psychology. Or we can even just look at Hobbes, who put these ideas in the form of a profound philosophy.

    The speculative moment survives in such resistance: what does not allow itself to be governed by the given facts, transcends them even in the closest contact with objects and in the renunciation of sacrosanct transcendence.

    An interesting sentence. In the speculative moment we go beyond the given facts, the appearances which are so often misleading (and ideological). But this transcendence is not the "sacrosanct transcendence" of traditional metaphysics, which ventures into a pure, higher, eternal reality. No, the reality we hope to reach is immanent to experience.

    The trouble is, immanent transcendence is an oxymoron. As Adorno might say, "that's just too bad".

    What in thought goes beyond that to which it is bound in its resistance is its freedom. It follows the expressive urge of the subject.

    Thought aims to break through the facade but is also bound to the object as that to which it is directed, since this is immanent critique that takes the facts on their own terms. The expressive urge of the subject is the urge to express in words, or concepts, the non-conceptual that lies repressed in the facts. Which leads to this:

    The need to give voice to suffering is the condition of all truth. For suffering is the objectivity which weighs on the subject; what it experiences as most subjective, its expression, is objectively mediated.

    Since this is the ethical core of negative dialectics, I feel I need to do it justice either by saying a lot or by saying nothing. For now I'll go with the latter, because I'm out of juice.
  • Currently Reading
    Modernity and the Holocaust by Zygmunt Bauman.

    I've been meaning to read Bauman for years, and I happened upon this one, which happens to work very well in support of the Adorno reading, since it provides a concrete sociological grounding for Adorno’s abstractions.

    The nutshell is that the Holocaust was not a break with, or a regression from, modernity, but represented its hitherto unsuspected potential. But Bauman seems significantly more optimistic than Adorno.

    EDIT: The suspicion arises that sociology, a paradigmatic product of modernity, was itself in some sense implicated in the Holocaust. Bauman so far hasn’t made that claim explicitly but it seems to be an underlying worry.
  • Why are 90% of farmers very right wing?
    I would have thought that the Left, historically being the side for the working class, it would be natural they would be on that side.unimportant

    I’ll just respond in a rather arcane and non-topical fashion to this particular point, without addressing the main question. Some of the most influential socialists have of course been Marxists, and Marxists are traditionally hostile to farmers and peasants, seeing them not as proletarians but as petit bourgeois, and as standing in the way of capitalist development, i.e., the only route to communism. For Marxists, only the proletariat is revolutionary—everyone else being presumed at least non- and often counter-revolutionary.

    And even though Leninism rejected the idea that capitalist development must be seen through to completion before communism is possible, the Bolsheviks only spoke with approval of the peasants because they needed their support; they later abused and exploited them.

    So, farmers worldwide have never forgiven socialists for the Bolshevik ban of the Socialist-Revolutionaries in 1922, the only powerful political party in Russia rooted in the peasantry.

    (That last sentence is a joke, though it has a kernel of truth, namely that there is no necessary affinity between farmers and the Left and that farmers are not necessarily wrong to distrust the Left)
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    I'm wondering if anyone has thoughts on what "thingly bad state of affairs" means. I was wondering if it's supposed to say "thinly" just as a first guess?Moliere

    Interesting!

    Expression and stringency are not dichotomous possibilities for it. They need each other, neither is without the other. The expression is relieved of its contingency by thought, on which it works just as thought works on it. Thinking becomes, as something which is expressed, conclusive only through linguistic portrayal; what is laxly said, is badly thought. Through expression, stringency is compelled from what is expressed. It is not an end in itself at the latter’s expense, but carries it off out of the thingly bad state of affairs, for its part an object of philosophical critique.

    It's definitely thingly, since he uses it again later on in the book, where it's helpfully accompanied by the German:

    As mediated as being is by the concept and therein by the subject, so mediated is, in the reverse case, the subject by the world in which it lives, so powerless and merely internalized too is its decision. Such powerlessness permits the victory of the thingly bad state of affairs [dinghafte Unwesen] over the subject. — section: Function of the Concept of the Existent

    A.I. gives me the following for dinghafte Unwesen in this context:

    - Reified monstrosity
    - Thing-like perversion
    - Thingly mischief
    - Reified disorder
    - The tyranny of thinghood
    - Thingly corruption
    - Reified malignity

    I think it's connected with alienation and commodity fetishism. The state of affairs he is talking about is one in which things dominate the individual, e.g., commodities or institutions. This is the state of affairs characterized by reification, in which relationships are frozen conceptually into fixed and autonomous things. This is made more obvious in the later passage. The first passage says that careful expression in language is required to break out of the thingly way of thinking that is habitual in this thingly society, i.e., to break out of reification and of static thinking.

    Incidentally, Ashton has "materialized mischief". If my interpretation is right, Ashton's translation, though it reads more smoothly, is seriously inaccurate.

    By the way, I haven't got to the Portrayal section yet, so I'll say more about all that later.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    Before I say something about the "Speculative Moment" section, I'll just pick up on something in the previous section.

    The philosophical concept does not dispense with the longing which animates art as something non-conceptual and whose fulfilment flees from its immediacy as appearance [Schein]. The concept, the organon of thought and nevertheless the wall [Mauer: external wall] between this and what is to be thought through, negates that longing. Philosophy can neither circumvent such negation nor submit itself to it. What is incumbent on it, is the effort to go beyond the concept, by means of the concept.

    The last sentence expresses an idea that's quite familiar to us now, but I'm interested in the idea of concepts as simultaneously barriers between subject and object and also the only means of access that the subject has to get to those objects by way of thought (accepting that there is no uninterpreted object of cognitive access). This makes me think of perception. There's a popular way of thinking about perception, namely as a distorting medium that ensures that all we can know through the senses are internal representations, meaning that we are necessarily cut off from the world around us, isolated minds housed within sensory pods. I have often voiced the view that, on the contrary, this pod scepticism mistakes our means of access to the world for a barrier — our senses are what enable us to know the world and act effectively in it. And I think this captures what Adorno means when he speaks of mediation.

    One could tackle the present issue in the same way, to defend thinking against a thoroughgoing scepticism of the intellect, e.g., an intuitionism like Bergson's that says we can't hope to grasp the truth of reality through concepts. But simply coming down on the side of successful access would, of course, not be dialectical enough—Adorno wants us to think of a concept as both a barrier and a means of access, to see the essential contradiction or paradox in the activity of philosophy. Similarly, we could try to circumvent the interminable debate over the "problem of perception" with a dialectical approach. In fact, Adorno probably has something like that view, since he is dead against naive realism and also takes the falsity of appearances as a fundamentally important theme in philosophy. Furthermore, Adorno's whole point is that concepts do not ensure a successful access to or grasp of reality.

    This dialectical approach exemplifies immanent critique. I can best explain this by first outlining my previous way of thinking.

    When I was thinking about hyperbolic scepticism and the problem of perception I would often say, in the same breath as my emphasis on access and my criticism of the idea of a barrier, that we cannot oppose these ideas by meeting them on their own terms. For example, one doesn't oppose external world scepticism by arguing point-by-point against those who see it as a serious problem for epistemology, but rather by undermining the hidden premises, refusing even to countenance the supposedly secure starting point (in the head with a primary self-knowledge).

    Immanent critique does things differently. It precisely does engage with ideas on their own terms—not to refute them directly, but to push their internal logic until it leads to contradictions. Where the sceptic's barrier is dismissed outright by the direct realist, Adorno's dialectics enter the barrier (the concept), exposing how its contradictions reveal the very non-identity it tries to suppress.

    Thus, following the practice of immanent critique Adorno will repeatedly emphasize the seeming paradox of using inadequate concepts to go beyond concepts, by means of an exposure of their inadequacy. He wants to use concepts to transcend concepts precisely because their inadequacy is not only an obstacle but is also the negative pathway to truth. In doing so he is engaging with the idea of the concept as barrier, without abandoning the concept simply because it's a barrier.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    @Moliere I intend to respond in a few days. Just so you know I’m not ignoring you.
  • What are you listening to right now?


    You know it's a good band when the live version is better than the recorded one.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    I’ll say something about the last two paragraphs of the “Infinity” section.

    To this extent the aesthetic moment is, albeit for totally different reasons than in Schelling, not accidental to philosophy. Not the least of its tasks is to sublate this in the committalness [Verbindlichkeit] of its insights into what is real. This latter and play are its poles. The affinity of philosophy to art does not justify the borrowing of this by the former, least of all by virtue of the intuitions which barbarians consider the prerogative of art. Even in aesthetic labor they hardly ever strike in isolation, as lightning-bolts from above. They grow out of the formal law of the construction; if one wished to titrate them out, they would melt away. Thinking by no means protects sources, whose freshness would emancipate it from thought; no type of cognition is at our disposal, which would be absolutely divergent from that which disposes over things, before which intuitionism flees panic-stricken and in vain.

    In a nutshell, art is something to emulate, but carefully: not to imitate its reliance on intuition, but to learn from its non-coercive engagement with the non-conceptual.

    The philosophy which imitated art, which wanted to become a work of art, would cancel itself out. It would postulate the identity-claim: that its objects vanish into it, indeed that they grant their mode of procedure a supremacy which disposes over the heterogenous as a priori material, while the relationship of philosophy to the heterogenous is virtually thematic. What art and philosophy have in common is not form or patterning procedures, but a mode of conduct which forbids pseudo-morphosis. Both keep faith with their own content through their opposition; art, by making itself obdurate against its meaning; philosophy, by not clinging to anything immediate. The philosophical concept does not dispense with the longing which animates art as something non-conceptual and whose fulfillment flees from its immediacy as appearance [Schein]. The concept, the organon of thought and nevertheless the wall [Mauer: external wall] between this and what is to be thought through, negates that longing. Philosophy can neither circumvent such negation nor submit itself to it. What is incumbent on it, is the effort to go beyond the concept, by means of the concept.

    If philosophy were to attempt to be art, it would turn the non-conceptual into mere cognitive material, in which its mode of procedure (its form) had supremacy over the non-conceptual content. But we must engage things on their own terms. This is like the difference between, e.g., viewing the mechanics and acoustics of the saxophone as a neutral medium, the material, for musical expression, and viewing them rather as themselves shaping what is being expressed through their limits and resistances.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    That would explain the part about canceling itself out, and "pseudo-morphosis". A quick Google search tells me that this is a concept proposed by Oswald Spengler in "The Decline of the West".Metaphysician Undercover

    The original geological concept makes more sense to me: it’s when a mineral replaces another mineral but takes the first one’s shape. Adorno is saying that art and philosophy (at their best, I assume) do not allow this, i.e., they do not allow their content to be replaced, leaving only form. It’s the content that matters most. What they have in common is what ensures that one cannot become the other: to each its own proper content.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    To me, Adorno misrepresents the concept of "infinity", and misrepresents philosophy, in generalMetaphysician Undercover

    I suggest not making too much of his thoughts on infinity, because they're not necessary for an understanding of negative dialectics. It's just an angle, one that's only really significant in opposition to German idealism.

    He's not really interested in how philosophy in general has treated infinity; he just wants to take it from Hegel and refunction it, as a way of pointing at what negative dialectics is doing. The point is just that the infinite can play a role suggestively, referring to philosophy's inconclusiveness and the endless variety of experience.

    It's best just to think of it [EDIT: I mean this part of his thinking] in terms of speculation and the irrational.
  • [TPF Essay] Technoethics: Freedom, Precarity, and Enzymatic Knowledge Machines
    The author put a lot of work into the essay. It deserves readers who are willing to do their own work to understand it.
  • [TPF Essay] Technoethics: Freedom, Precarity, and Enzymatic Knowledge Machines


    It’s perhaps telling that whenever I criticize people for anti-intellectualism or laziness they pretend I’ve implied they’re not intellectual enough. That is obviously not the case. It is fine to be flummoxed; what is not fine is to immediately complain about it to the author. Be flummoxed, and if you’re genuinely interested, de-flummox yourself, perhaps with the help of some polite questions.
  • [TPF Essay] Technoethics: Freedom, Precarity, and Enzymatic Knowledge Machines
    On the difficulty of the textBaden

    There is nothing wrong with how it’s written. The problem is that several of the readers seem to have expected something dumbed down or put in language they’re already familiar with. As far as I’m aware this was not in the rules of the event, was it? So the complaints are just anti-intellectualism, or laziness, or both. It’s a shame that people who apparently want to be part of a philosophy discussion forum are not willing to grapple with philosophy, or perhaps do not even realize that philosophy is difficult and sometimes technical.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno


    Yes, I also find it quite intuitive and enjoy the tension between the rational and irrational.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno


    Well, I agree with what you managed to write :grin:
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    Introduction: "Infinity"

    In my notes on the previous section I described the disenchantment of the concept as "bringing the concept down to Earth." In this section, Adorno begins by saying that this prevents the concept getting too big for its boots, "becoming the absolute itself". The prime example, or model, of this is the concept of infinity. We covered this when we looked at lecture 8 (here). In negative dialectics, the concept of infinity "is to be refunctioned".

    The illusion that it [philosophy] could captivate the essence in the finitude of its determinations must be given up.

    Adorno's idea here is that if a philosophy can do justice to infinity at all, it is not by reducing it to its finite systems, or by presuming to be complete ("conclusive") in its grasp of the infinite and becoming thereby finite---but rather by a radical openness. Philosophy, in the form of negative dialectics, aims to "literally immerse itself into that which is heterogenous to it, without reducing it to prefabricated categories." That which is heterogeneous to it is of course the non-conceptual.

    The only way that philosophy can in some sense lay claim to the infinite is by giving up the belief "that it has the infinite at its disposal." It's quite easy to understand what Adorno is getting at if we look at his recommendation of a philosophy that is "infinite to the extent that it refuses to define itself as a corpus of enumerable theorems." In other words, since there is no closure, completion, or conclusiveness in negative dialectics, it is never finished and so is in a sense infinite, precisely without claiming to capture the infinite as the philosophers of German idealism did.

    This philosophy ...

    ... would have its content in the polyvalence of objects not organized into a scheme, which impinge on it or which it seeks out; it would truly deliver itself over to them, would not employ them as a mirror, out of which it rereads itself, confusing its mirror-image with the concretion. It would be nothing other than the full, unreduced experience in the medium of conceptual reflection; even the “science of the experience of consciousness” would degrade the content of such experiences to examples of categories.

    Then Adorno describes what spurs philosophy in the direction of infinity in the first place:

    What spurs philosophy to the risky exertion of its own infinity is the unwarranted expectation that every individual and particular which it decodes would represent, as in Leibniz’s monad, that whole in itself, which as such always and again eludes it

    I take this to mean that all philosophy, including both German idealism and negative dialectics (the two philosophies that are being opposed in this section), are motivated by the "unwarranted expectation" that particulars can reveal the whole, or put differently, that the infinite can be reached via particulars. But the whole "always and again eludes" philosophy---the difference is that negative dialectics recognizes this.

    The "unwarranted expectation" is thus dialectical: Adorno seems to retain it for negative dialectics, while admitting that it will never be satisfied.

    Cognition holds none of its objects completely.

    Although this statement seems unremarkable now, and might even stand as a shared axiom of modernity, historically speaking it's an important break from the philosophical past.

    It is not supposed to prepare the fantasm of a whole.

    Constructing a comprehensive representation of reality is not the proper task of thinking. Such a representation is always an illusion or "fantasm".

    Then he uses art as a model to show what this means:

    Thus it cannot be the task of a philosophical interpretation of works of art to establish their identity with the concept, to gobble them up in this; the work however develops itself through this in its truth.

    A typical Adornian dyad. On the one hand, we should not seek to gobble up works of art in the concepts of our interpretations (art interpretation as identity-thinking); on the other hand, it is the failure of the concepts to succeed in this gobbling up that reveals the truth-content of the artworks. It follows that philosophy ought to critically engage with interpretations that attempt this gobbling up, so that their failure becomes manifest.

    It also follows that formal methods of interpretation, in terms of genre, definitions, and so on, must always fail:

    What may be glimpsed in this, be it the formal process of abstraction, be it the application of concepts to what is grasped under their definitions, may be of use as technics in the broadest sense: for philosophy, which refuses to suborn itself, it is irrelevant. In principle it can always go astray; solely for that reason, achieve something. Skepticism and pragmatism, latest of all Dewey’s strikingly humane version of the latter, recognized this; this is however to be added into the ferment of an emphatic philosophy, not renounced in advance for the sake of its test of validity.

    Techniques for the classification and ranking of artworks are not enough to reveal the truth-content in art, and in fact obscure it, therefore they are not philosophical. Philosophy, properly conceived, does not stick to such techniques, to formal methodologies, therefore it can go astray---and here is the reason it can make some headway. The strength of philosophy lies in its fallibility: in attempting an analysis of an object such an artwork, it might miss the mark but at the same time reveal something.

    I take the last sentence to be saying that scepticism and pragmatism are pretty good, but to really get at the truth we need to go beyond the safety of what can be validly ascertained into "the ferment of an emphatic philosophy". This reminds us of what he said in the lectures about speculation, and indeed the next section is entitled "The Speculative Moment".

    And the next paragraph introduces play, which Adorno associated with the speculative moment in lecture 9 (see here). Since the introduction seems to mirror the lectures, we might suspect that the concept of mimesis is going to come up here too.

    Against the total domination of method, philosophy retains, correctively, the moment of play, which the tradition of its scientifization would like to drive out of it.

    The non-naïve thought knows how little it encompasses what is thought, and yet must always hold forth as if it had such completely in hand. It thereby approximates clowning.

    I like this thought very much. He said almost the same thing in the lectures, but here it's more elegantly put. Philosophy is ridiculous. But one can be intentionally ridiculous: a clown knows what he is doing. One would rather be a clown than a fool (if we define a fool as one who is unknowingly ridiculous). This is to say that we should go ahead and be playful; in so doing we recognize philosophy's absurdity.

    This is not as irrational as it seems, since Adorno does believe philosophy can reveal truths. Perhaps we should extend the metaphor and think of the well-attested function of the jester as speaking truth to power, as a form of critique. The questions that seem most ridiculous might be the right ones to ask.

    Incidentally, this is of course the point in the lectures (lecture 9) in which the irrational comes up, hence the impression of irrationalism here. Again and again Adorno wants to say we ought to try to do what cannot be done.

    What aims for what is not already a priori and what it would have no statutory power over, belongs, according to its own concept, simultaneously to a sphere of the unconstrained, which was rendered taboo by the conceptual essence.

    Negative dialectics aims for the non-conceptual, that which (a) is not already a priori; and (b) eludes capture with philosophy's laws or methodical application of concepts. As such a philosophy, it belongs to a "sphere of the unconstrained," a realm where philosophy's laws don't apply. This realm beyond the concept was made taboo by philosophy, according to its essentially conceptual nature.

    He brings up mimesis next, from which we can see that his genealogy of philosophy is mirrored by the genealogy described in The Dialectic of Enlightenment:

    The concept cannot otherwise represent the thing which it repressed, namely mimesis, than by appropriating something of this latter in its own mode of conduct, without losing itself to it.

    Mimesis is the pre-rational imitation of the object, or act of adapting oneself to the object, something inherent in primitive magic but repressed---made taboo---by the conceptualization that came with myth, religion, and finally the instrumental rationality of the Enlightenment.

    So, as I briefly mentioned in my notes on the lecture, Adorno's idea here is that philosophy has to imitate mimesis while not going so far as to abandon concepts. The model is art, which is constitutively open to the new and the different.

    Okay, I've run out of steam tonight. The last two paragraphs of this section elaborate on how the "aesthetic moment is ... not accidental to philosophy." I may say something about that in another post.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    So I figured I would post these thoughts to the community, as it would know best what to do with them.Pussycat

    Since it's not directly engaged in the reading it might be better in its own thread. But to get any responses I think you’d have to do more to explain the analogy (I for one do not understand it).
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    Introduction: Disenchantment of the Concept

    The first paragraph in this section has the same form as the first paragraph of the previous section:

    1. This thing we're doing can look a lot like idealism
    2. Here is why it actually isn't

    The earlier paragraph was about negative dialectics; this one is about philosophy in general. Adorno is tackling a common argument that accuses pretty much all philosophy of being idealist, at least all philosophy that strives to be more than clarification and therapy. So he might have in mind logical positivists, as well as any anti-philosophical empiricists who suppose that immediate access to reality is possible, that is, bypassing concepts. Ordinary language philosophy might fit the bill too. Of course, these philosophies are quite different, but what they have in common is the idea that philosophy's reliance on concepts is a self-imposed and self-reflecting confusion.

    The critique that Adorno criticizes is referred to as "the general objection":

    Philosophy, Hegel’s included, invites the general objection that insofar as it would have compulsory concepts as its material, it already characterizes itself in advance as idealistic.

    His first response is to say that of course philosophy cannot just deal directly with the facts themselves, without going through concepts:

    As a matter of fact none of them, not even extreme empiricism, can haul off the facta bruta [Latin: brute facts] and present them like anatomical cases or physics experiments; none, as so many paintings tempt one to believe, glue specific things onto the text.

    Then comes his primary rejoinder:

    But the argument in its formal generality grasps the concept as fetishistically as the manner in which it naively explicates itself within its domain, as a self-sufficient totality, which philosophical thinking cannot do anything about. In truth all concepts, even philosophical ones, move towards what is non-conceptual, because they are for their part moments of the reality, which necessitated – primarily for the purpose of controlling nature – their formation.

    "The argument" refers to the general objection introduced in the first sentence. Adorno accuses it of treating concepts (he says "the concept," meaning concepts in general) precisely how idealism does, namely by fetishizing them as static, standalone objects, as totalities, i.e., as complete without any object beyond them (and exhausting the object without remainder). He counters that "in truth," all concepts are produced by and point back to material reality (whether they do the latter well or badly is a different matter). That is part of what a concept is. This flat assertion of materialism is similar to that in the earlier paragraph.

    That which appears as the conceptual mediation from the inside, the pre-eminence of its sphere, without which nothing could be known, may not be confused with what it is in itself. Such an appearance [Schein] of the existent-in-itself lends it the movement which exempts it from the reality, within which it is for its part harnessed.

    A very slippery couple of sentences. Does the "appearance of the existent-in-itself" in the second sentence refer to the "conceptual mediation" of the first sentence? If so, I think Adorno is saying that once this conceptual mediation is properly apprehended as an appearance, rather than as the very thing it points to in the real world, it gains the freedom of movement necessary for the dialectic, despite having material roots and connections.

    Or, the acknowledgement of the material origin and non-conceptual goal of concepts frees philosophy from accusations of idealism, since its necessarily mediational nature just is how we access reality in thought.

    With both of these interpretations together---because they're complementary---I think maybe I'm close to what Adorno is saying.

    The next paragraph elaborates on the first.

    The requirement that philosophy must operate with concepts is no more to be made into a virtue of this priority than, conversely, the critique of this virtue is to be the summary verdict over philosophy.

    Neither philosophy's conceptual essence nor the above critique of this essence should have the last word. Instead...

    Meanwhile, the insight that its conceptual essence would not be its absolute in spite of its inseparability is again mediated through the constitution of the concept; it is no dogmatic or even naively realistic thesis.

    The crucial insight is that philosophy's conceptual essence is not absolute, i.e., it does not entail that it depends on nothing outside itself. And this insight is "mediated through the constitution of the concept," meaning that it arises organically from what we understand concepts to do, rather than being a bare assertion of dogmatic metaphysics or naive realism. And what we understand concepts to do is reach towards the non-conceptual:

    Concepts such as that of being in the beginning of Hegel’s Logic indicate first of all that which is emphatically non-conceptual; they signify, as per Lask’s expression, beyond themselves.

    It is in their nature not to be satisfied by their own conceptuality, although to the extent that they include the non-conceptual in their meaning, they tend to make this identical to itself and thereby remain entangled in
    themselves.

    Here he brings up identity-thinking again. When concepts explicitly refer to the non-conceptual, they attempt to make it identical with themselves and thereby forget about the non-conceptual they had been trying to reach in the first place.

    Their content is as immanent in the intellectual sense as transcendent in the ontical sense to such. By means of the self-consciousness of this they have the capacity of discarding their fetishism.

    The content of concepts is both immanent and transcendent. It is immanent because whatever is included in the concept is thereby conceptualized---it remains within the sphere of the intellect so long as it is a concept at all; and it is transcendent because it still points outside itself---although it is intellectually immanent, by its nature it transcends its own intellectuality, or seeks to.

    And once we have a concept which takes this dual nature into account, the fetishism that usually characterizes both philosophy and the critique of philosophy (the fetishism of the concept as standalone object) can be discarded.

    Negative dialectics is supposed to consist of the philosophical self-reflection that achieves this.

    Philosophical self-reflection assures itself of the non-conceptual in the concept. Otherwise this latter would be, after Kant’s dictum, null, ultimately no longer the concept of something and thereby void.

    Kant's dictum is "Thoughts without content are empty". Concepts must be of something.

    The next paragraph makes the case somewhat polemically:

    The philosophy which recognizes this, which cancels out the autarky of the concept, strikes the blinders from the eyes. That the concept is a concept even when it deals with the existent, hardly changes the fact that it is for its part enmeshed in a non-conceptual whole against which it seals itself off solely through its reification, which indeed created it as a concept.

    The interesting thing here is the mention of reification. It is through the reification of concepts that they lose touch with what is outside of themselves. But more than that: it is actually through reification that a concept becomes a distinct individual intellectual item in the first place. This reminds us how deep Adorno's scepticism of concepts runs, and shows us that we can never expect final, satisfactory concepts in philosophy.

    The concept is a moment like any other in dialectical logic. Its mediated nature through the non conceptual survives in it by means of its significance, which for its part founds its conceptual nature.

    So far, so good. The concept's very conceptuality is founded on its signification beyond itself. He goes on to say pretty much the same thing in a different way:

    It is characterized as much by its relation to the non-conceptual – as in keeping with traditional epistemology, where every definition of concepts ultimately requires non-conceptual, deictic moments – as the contrary, that the abstract unity of the onta subsumed under it are to be separated from the ontical.

    On the one hand the concept is characterized by its separation---as the abstract unity that unifies existing things ("onta")---from the things themselves in their concrete reality (the "ontical"). But equally it can be characterized by its relation to the non-conceptual. In other words, it is just as much related to as separated from the non-conceptual.

    To change this direction of conceptuality, to turn it towards the non-identical, is the hinge of negative dialectics. Before the insight into the constitutive character of the non-conceptual in the concept, the compulsion of identity, which carries along the concept without the delay of such a reflection, dissolves. Its self-determination leads away from the appearance [Schein] of the concept’s being-in-itself as a unity of meaning, out towards its own meaning.

    The insight described above, that the concept is constitutively concerned with the non-conceptual, allows us to resist the compulsion of identity thinking and orient our concepts towards that which escapes them or is distorted by them.

    Now we can see what the section title means. The disenchantment of the concept intentionally mirrors Weber's disenchantment of the world. Where the latter described the demystification of the world through the erosion of religious worldviews and sacred hierarchical bonds, the disenchantment of the concept means to erode its sacred power, to root it in material reality without casting it aside completely---bringing the concept down to Earth.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno


    All right. I think you got carried away in your previous post, when you said that the meaning of "negative dialectics" was "against dialectics", when obviously it just means dialectics of the negative variety.

    Of course he criticizes Hegel a lot, since his (Adorno's) version of dialectics is meant to be a superior replacement for Hegel's. But he is still quite a lot closer to Hegel in method than he is to Plato, even using Hegel's terms and categories, e.g., mediation, determinate negation, moment, etc.

    And I think it's crucial to keep in mind the fundamentally dialectical nature of Adorno's philosophy, in the Hegelian sense, otherwise we risk solidifying the concepts he uses along the way.

    Anyway, as you say, I think we can sort of agree on this particular issue.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    That is the representation derived from the dialectical approach, it is a false condition. It is a faulty ontology, the manifestation of an idealism which holds as a primary principle, a faulty generalization "Spirit". Notice what is said after that phrase, "a true one [ontology] would be emancipated from it [dialectics]".Metaphysician Undercover

    When "dialectics is the ontology of the false condition" is immediately followed by "A true one would be emancipated from it," we can be confident that "a true one" refers to the condition and the "it" refers to dialectics.

    I had not realized until now that you actually believe Adorno is arguing against dialectics as such. That's an eccentric interpretation, to say the least.

    EDIT: I suggest you have a look at lecture 1 again. Now that you have some Adorno under your belt, it'll make more sense, and you'll get a better idea of his intentions.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    Having something at your disposal is the opposite of being dominated by itMetaphysician Undercover

    May I remind you that Adorno is a dialectical thinker who relishes counterintuitive paradoxes?

    As he says, "dialectics is the ontology of the false condition." The false condition is wrong society, and it is not (only) wrong because a nefarious group of gangsters and psychos is oppressing and impoverishing everyone else, but (also) because all people, from top to bottom, are under the spell of ideology and coerced by the system, their individuality stunted. This is true even of those who do not suffer direct oppression and poverty.

    Adorno inherits his position on this matter from Marx:

    The self-valorization of capital – the creation of surplus-value – is therefore the determining, dominating and overriding purpose of the capitalist; it is the absolute motive and content of his activity. And in fact it is no more than the rationalized motive and aim of the hoarder – a highly impoverished and abstract content which makes it plain that the capitalist is just as enslaved by the relationships of capitalism as is his opposite pole, the worker, albeit in a quite different manner. — Capital vol.1, p.990

    No vaguely Marxian thinker believes that the material privilege of the ruling class confers a state of true freedom, of flourishing subjectivity and spiritual satisfaction. They are as conditioned by the system as anyone else, probably more so—and one of Adorno's points about late capitalism, made elsewhere (but probably in ND too, somewhere), is that the bourgeoisie managed to absorb large sections of the proletariat, in effect turning workers into bourgeois (with rights, comforts, and leisure unheard of in the Victorian factories of Marx's day). In this way, liberal capitalism becomes more ideological than is required by the naked domination of monarchy or dictatorship, since everyone begins to buy into the illusions that justify the system—including those at the top, who "cannot even know how much it is their own."

    And yet, the capitalists buy into them most of all, and behave according to the delimitations of the system's logic. In this way, their subjectivity is captured and directed. This conditioning is a form of domination, plainly.

    But I've gone back to thinking he's not just talking about capitalists. I think he thinks the very idea of a ruling class is outdated in late capitalism, so what he means is those not only at the top but also in the machine of capitalist administration—the managers, bureaucrats, lawyers, advertising executives, accountants, financial consultants, etc., whose "own reason ... produces identity through exchange", i.e., who understand their participation in the economy according to instrumental rationality, and reproduce and reinforce that understanding.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    Clearly he is noy referring to those dominated by itMetaphysician Undercover

    I think it's clear that he is, and that you're reading it wrong. It's a dialectical point: those most determined by the system also produce it, and those dominated by the system do not know how much they themselves constitute and maintain it. But in the context in which he discusses the status of subjects and subjectivity in general, he would not suddenly restrict his referent to a particular class, so that's why I'm inclined to think he meant anyone of whatever class.

    Notice at the end of my quoted passage, the generality which Hegel called "the Spirit" is "the product of particular interests".Metaphysician Undercover

    Yes, he is referring to instrumental reason in the service of capital, in the guise of universal reason. In other words, ideology. But ideology bewitches and is reproduced by everyone, not only by a conspiratorial elite.

    So even if the particular interests are the interests of the bourgeoisie, it doesn't mean he was referring to the bourgeoisie when he mentioned those most conditioned by the system.

    I'm not sure it's crucial though.

    EDIT: I asked ChatGPT and Deepseek and they agreed with you that the "most conditioned" refers to the ruling class, so I'm definitely doubting myself now. On the other hand, the ruling class are also dominated by the system, so…either way, I win :grin:

    If that is not the point we disagree on then what do you think we disagree on?Metaphysician Undercover

    Sorry, I meant I disagree with your interpretation of Adorno's attitude to contradiction in the object. I agree that we disagree on that point.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    Therefore, if we have any desire to resolve this disagreement between you and I, we need to pay very close attention to how Adorno describes subject-to-subject relations, and how he concludes the section.Metaphysician Undercover

    We have both paid very close attention to the text, but we continue to have very different interpretations.

    Notice, the system is not absolute Spirit, but it is the property of an elite few who cannot even know to what extent it is their own.Metaphysician Undercover

    He is referring not to an elite but to any and all members of society, particularly those dominated by it.

    There, in theory, each subject is reduced to the same common denominator,Metaphysician Undercover

    It is the logic of exchange, and therefore the actual economy, that reduces subjects to a common denominator. That's what Adorno means.

    The point where we disagree is concerning Adorno's attitude toward contradiction within particular objects. I think he rejects this, and all the examples he gives of such, are examples of mistakes induced by Hegelian dialectics which he is rejecting as the wrong approach.Metaphysician Undercover

    I disagree.
  • What are you listening to right now?
    One more tonight, a big hit across Eurasia...