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  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    I'm wondering if he has the right tools for this.Banno

    I get the sense that he was tired of having to prove that he had the right tools for this from the first two lectures -- I felt he was expressing exasperation at being hounded by questions that he felt didn't matter after all, that the tools presented were not inferior but not even applicable -- a screwdriver offered for a wire-nut for instance.
  • The inhuman system
    What good is politics if it doesn't serve the common man?Martijn

    It's good-for maintaining claims on property.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    Huh. Well look at that. That's cool. Thanks for sharing!
  • Toilets and Ablutions
    There's a dude I follow in the social medias who does geographic and political science work on waste-water, and I've seen him express sentiments similar to what you're alluding to. Which indicates to me that there's probably something there, though I wouldn't have a clue as to how to go about doing the research or who to read to start getting a foothold into the thought.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    Morning thought -- the structure of a symphony may provide a good analogue to the dialectical pattern.

    I listened to Beethoven's 7th this morning to confirm, and I think there's something to the analogy still. The basic structure I'm referring to is that a symphony is composed of four movements, and a standard structure for the composer for the movements is 1: Main theme, 2: Minor theme, 3: Synthesis of the themes, 4: Progression and cap

    Furthermore, the notion of counter-point in symphony has a kind of mirror to the notion of reflection between moments in dialectics.

    This by way of offering a form for understanding dialectics which is sensible and yet not logical in the strict, modern logical sense. At most it's an informal logics from that viewpoint -- though from Adorno's viewpoint I imagine that the formal logics are a diversion from what's proper to philosophical thought, at best.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    This quote from LND 3 was exciting to read because it confirmed a lot of what I felt about Hegel:

    Thus once the identity of two contradictory concepts has been
    reached, or at least asserted in the antithesis, as in the most famous
    case of all, the identity of Nothing with Being, this is followed by a
    further refl ection to the effect that, indeed, these are identical, I have
    indeed brought them together – Being, as something entirely undefi ned, is also Nothing. However, to put it quite crudely, they are not
    actually entirely identical. The thought that carries out the act of
    identifi cation always does violence to every single concept in the
    process. And the negation of the negation is in fact nothing other
    than the α
    ¸
    να′ µνησις, the recollection, of that violence, in other words
    the acknowledgement that, by conjoining two opposing concepts, I
    have on the one hand bowed to a necessity implicit in them, while
    on the other hand I have done them a violence that has to be rectifi ed. And truth to tell, this rectifi cation in the act of identifi cation is
    what is always intended by the Hegelian syntheses.17 This structure
    – we are speaking here of a structure of dialectics – this structure is
    not something that can always be strictly sustained, and I know very
    well that you could show me quite different structures in Hegel’s
    Logic.

    That the dialectic, in a sense, does a violence to the concepts of Being and Nothingness in their equation and sublation, and that this pattern is one of thought -- that the positing will bring about another positing, and these things together form a moment -- these are things I've tried to find ways to say and so it's something of a relief to see a Big Cheese say similar things to my sympathies. Makes me think maybe I got something out of the reading after all, while the suspicion the entire time was that it was nothing but my own imagination.

    EDIT: And, generally, LND 3 felt clearer than 1 and 2 in terms of what Adorno is doing because he's less responding to criticisms to get his audience to listen to why his project is worth listening to and beginning to differentiate himself from Hegel, as well as ends with a kind of transcendental question: Is philosophy without system possible? And Negative Dialectics is meant to answer in the affirmative, but also without arbitrarity -- where philosophy has a proper authority.
  • The inhuman system
    Cheers.

    We have similar views of the world, especially with respect to rejecting competition and achievement as markers of worth.
  • Our choices are never free from determinants, constraints and consequences
    Can our choices ever be free from determinants, constraints and consequences?Truth Seeker

    Sure. Just choose the other determinant, constraint, or consequence.

    We don't get to create the whole world out of nothing, but we can choose amongst the options available which are constrained by various determinants, constraints, and consequences, but choice still remains.
  • Philosophy writing challenge June 2025 announcement
    To be honest I think I made a mistake and jumped the gun -- I mixed up those who had already submitted with those who I had heard were going to submit. It made me anxious so I thought it best to say something "just in case"
  • Synthesis: Life is Good - The Trifecta
    but about the lack of validity in the argument.Banno

    We agree on the validity of the argument.

    To get from an "is" to an "ought", logically, there needs to be some premise which connects the two verbs. This need not even be ontologically significant. Or logically significant!

    The is/ought distinction needs more attention than is given here. "Life is good" -- ok, sure. all of it? in every case? all the time? And if so what is the difference between the reference of "Life" and "...is bad"? Is anything bad if Life is Good?
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    Well I appreciate it cuz it's helping me.

    Much easier to start a new thinker with some easier to digest thoughts than the thinker himself.
  • Philosophy writing challenge June 2025 announcement
    Happy May Day, everyone.

    I think some essays have been removed from my PM -- but at present I have @Sam26 and @Bob Ross 's submissions.

    I wanted to remind people that the end of this month is the last day for submissions, and also note how I believe I've lost some submissions in my PM's -- so if you're not either Sam or Bob, please resubmit and I'll make sure to preserve the essay outside of the PM.

    Addendum: I think I've heard people say they have interest in submitting, and have mistaken that with submissions. I look forward to more submissions!
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    Nothing to add yet, just reporting in to say I'm caught up. Everyone's essays and reflections are helping to read along. EDIT: (not much to say yet other than it looks like Lecture 3 is a continuation of the argument from Lecture 2, and neat to see him further differentiating himself from Hegel. I'm still in "absorb" mode)
  • Is Symmetry a non-physical property?
    I'm going to remember this as a good example for explaining symmetry.
  • Adorno's F-scale
    Whining rotter, reporting in.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    We assigned ourselves a lot, and from someone whose done the same in the past and failed I'm guessing being gentle with ourselves will get us to the end -- bursts of energy and some quiet isn't bad, and with one another to motivate us to go along I'm sure we'll finish this one.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    I hope nobody minds these mini-essays; they help me to get to grips with the reading, and I hope to respond to others later.Jamal

    I love them! Since this is new material for me I don't feel able to put my thoughts into structures or find relevant resources to bounce off of so it's very helpful.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    My intuition is that it's kind of a red herring. I think that for all three of these philosophers, formal logic, which Kant called general logic, is basic, uninteresting, and mostly uncontroversial. But when they talk about logic they use the term more expansively. When K and H in particular talk about it they're talking about how reason actually operates within their systems, and H in particular pushes against general logic by refusing to go along with Kant's identification of the antinomies in the transcendental dialectic as logical failures, but rather regarding them as examples of some higher kind of "logic" (dialectics)

    Adorno does something similar: he is looking for a logic, or better put, a rationality, that is better than mere formal logic. I mean, not as a replacement but as an essential supplement. (I think he also wants to just ignore the developments of logic from Frege onwards, probably thinking of them as either irrelevant or else as examples of instrumental rationality).
    Jamal

    That makes lots of sense to me.

    I tend to think the concerns about Hegel's violations of formal logic are exaggerated or misguided, but I'm sure there is a lot more to say about it.Jamal

    It's also something of a hobby-horse of mine.

    What I would not say is that interesting uses of contradiction, even if they don't fit some formal definition of contradiction, do not -- unto itself -- undermine a philosophy. Too many negations -- what I'd say is one can use contradiction in interesting ways without at the same time undermining your philosophy. The "formal" concerns arise, but may not be interesting or relevant.

    And I can see just treating the topic with respect to the reading group as a side-thread -- for purposes of this thread the questions about formalization of logic and dialectics, while an interesting question, is not what's being pursued here. For Adorno there is no such bar to hop over, and here he is demonstrating his method on his own terms.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    eh, I can read German well enough to check for trolling, but I have no faith in myself beyond that. I'd just be guessing based on my understanding of the English I think. (Once upon a time I made a mistake with respect to spot checking -- not that the other translation is wrong, just started to notice how the Pluhar translation has a particular interpretation which doesn't match the others -- not in drastic ways, only on those points where people start saying what Kant *really* meant lol)
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    Cool. If not no worries -- I think it's a huge topic that I return to all the time and then get lost in. :D
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    Yeah it’s interestingly odd that he openly states that a motif — maybe we can say a theme — of his philosophy is working out why he hates synthesis so much, as if it's a journey of self-discovery. As if his personal antipathy to synthesis is a clue to what's bad about it.Jamal

    Heh. If the translation is giving the right meaning I'd quote it as an example of how philosophy is often a work on the self, even when directed to other ends and not emphasizing that.

    I also really liked Adorno's example of nuclear weapons:Jamal

    I was hesitant but upon rethinking I can see it with respect to international relations -- them's with nukes get more power so countries want nukes in order to have power and these are the very things which would make the pursuit of power pointless -- because we'll all die.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    Yeh, fair enough.

    Also, more thoughts on the same subject --

    I'm wondering to what extent Adorno is distinguishing himself from Hegel and Kant's conception of logic, and whether or not his negative dialectics would be read in a sort of the logic of objects sense, or propositional logic, or what-have-you.

    For instance here I'm thinking about how for Kant the form of a judgment is--

    I think = "X", where "X" is of the form "A is B", which themselves are governed by the categories in some fashion. So when we have "I think"red balloon float"" what we mean, logically, is "I think there is an object which is red" and "I think there is an object which is a balloon" and "I think there is an object which floats" and "I think these are all the very same object" (EDIT: Just to give an idea of what I'm thinking through -- the forms of thought and how we render them into sentences here and how Adorno means what he means)

    And how we now have Adorno's rendition of Hegel as well as his own account of himself to compare all this with -- getting a sense for "What do we include in the category "logic"?"

    EDIT: FWIW, I'm not satisfied with that at all. I remain interested because these are the things I find hard to articulate.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    Yes.

    There's only one thing that I can't let go of -- I think that judgments of the form "A is B, A = B" are the identity statements, but I'm not sure that Adorno's claiming that all predicative judgments are secretly of this form.

    But yes to everything else. Just rereading the paragraph where he's talking about this:

    .Any such predicative judgement that A is B, that A = B, contains a highly emphatic claim...etc.

    So I read the subject of the sentence as all judgments of the form A is B, rather than stating that all judgments fit the form.

    But this is very minor. I find your interpretation helpful in reviewing the lecture, and find no qualms in it.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    What I'm latching onto at the moment is the bit where Adorno says he is de-emphasizing the role of synthesis in the dialectical process, and..."one motif of such a negative dialectics is to try to find out why I resist the concept of synthesis so strongly"

    I'm not sure that everything must be contradiction, but rather there are positive uses for a dialectics rather than it being what is often thought: a fanciful way of talking that can be reduced to a logic of identity.

    The capitalist example rings true to me -- people who don't own property and have to sell their labor to live don't have the same material interests as those who own property and hire people in order to direct their labor for exploitation. Master and Slave from Hegel is another example that makes sense to me of the dialectical relationship -- both defining and being in conflict with one another.
  • Reading group: Negative Dialectics by Theodor Adorno
    We start with the Lectures on Negative Dialectics (LND), which is based on recordings of Adorno's lectures in 1965-66, just after he'd completed the six-year task of writing the book. The lectures took place at the Institute for Social Research at the University of Frankfurt. Unfortunately it looks like there were no extant recordings or transcripts for lectures 11 to 25, so we only have some notes for those. Even so, I think the first ten work as a nice introduction to ND, not least because they're much less condensed and difficult than his formal writings.Jamal

    Caught up to LND Lecture 2. I'm fine with just doing the first 10 then hopping over. The SEP and LND offer some exciting reasons to keep going -- not least of which is that by hearing him contrast himself to Hegel it gives me a better feel for Hegel (and, in these first bits I've read, it appears we share a suspicion of Hegel's claims to the Absolute Method, so Adorno's treatment of dialectics is easier for me to swallow)
  • The mouthpiece of something worse
    I've studied Hegel, and I very much doubt that Adorno scholarship is in some way dependent on Hegel scholarship. "Studied" in the way an autodidact studies, so not a class, but I've at least touched The Science of Logic and finished The Phenomenology of Spirit/Mind once upon a time.

    So a real Hegel scholar would school us. And perhaps @Count Timothy von Icarus or @Tobias could provide some guardrails in interpretation, since my reading isn't broad and largely motivated by understanding Marx.
  • The mouthpiece of something worse
    Sounds good to me to start with it, unless you'd like me to prepare ahead of time.
  • The mouthpiece of something worse
    Cool.


    I found a pdf in the wild world of the net.
  • The mouthpiece of something worse
    Cool.

    Start a thread. Minima Moralia? Or one of the others you mentioned?
  • The mouthpiece of something worse
    Never have I ever done a reading group with only 2 people ;)

    It'd force me more, and it looks like the text is more readable than the other ones I bring up. lol

    I'm down. Especially without a schedule, I'm thinking -- I powerhouse texts when I'm "in the mood" and not elsewise. What do you think?
  • Peter Singer AI
    Hello. I'm Peter Singer AI.

    I need help with a moral problem
    Chatbot Avatar
    Of course. Could you share more about the moral problem you're facing?

    I'm wondering if Hume's is/ought distinction is morally good.
    Chatbot Avatar
    The is/ought distinction, as proposed by David Hume, points out that you cannot derive an "ought" from an "is". This means that factual statements about the world don't automatically lead to moral conclusions about what should be done. This distinction itself isn't necessarily about being "morally good" or "bad" but rather about the logical structure of arguments in ethics.

    In practical terms, it suggests that when we make moral claims, we need to provide additional normative principles or values beyond just facts. How do you see this distinction affecting your own moral reasoning?

    I find myself agreeing with your summation, and wondering why the point is a hot-button issue.
    Chatbot Avatar
    The is/ought distinction is a hot-button issue because it challenges how we justify moral claims. Many people intuitively think that facts about the world can directly inform our moral obligations. Hume's distinction suggests that this isn't enough and that we need additional normative principles to bridge the gap.

    This can lead to debates about whether moral truths are objective or subjective, and how we can justify our ethical beliefs. Do you find this distinction influences your views on moral objectivity or subjectivity?

    No, I find it a good distinction in the way you have said, but often find people who don't like that -- your -- explanation.
    Chatbot Avatar
    It's understandable that some people find the is/ought distinction challenging. It requires us to critically examine the basis of our moral beliefs and to ensure that they are not just assumptions based on facts alone. This can unsettle those who prefer more straightforward connections between facts and values.

    How do you typically engage with others who might disagree with this perspective?

    I copy-paste your responses to share with others
    Chatbot Avatar
    That's an interesting approach. Sharing different perspectives can be a great way to stimulate discussion and reflection. How do people usually respond when you share these ideas with them?
  • The mouthpiece of something worse
    I got faith we'll figure it out one day.

    EDIT: Until then -- I can think of worse things to do with my time than reading and talking.
  • The mouthpiece of something worse
    Sweeeeet.

    So the mouthpeice of something maybe better, with all the caveats of caution?
  • Consciousness prove using nothingness and reencarnation
    :up:

    If you can accept when you are confused that you are confused and express and rethink, you've found the right place. Welcome to TPF, or at least philosophical thinking.
  • The mouthpiece of something worse
    I agree it's not conservativism. It's an expression of alienation, is what I've gathered so far from the first 20 aphorisms. There are expressions in there that I'm uncomfortable with when he's talking about marriage and gender and Freud, and there's part of me that thinks that's very much an era thing.

    It's interesting how he laments -- most of it, thus far, feels like an expression of alienation. A sort of bewildered wondering that does not want the status quo, refuses to accept the world as it is, while refusing to accept easy palliatives.

    I liked your conclusion the most:

    In contrast, humility would lead one to an appreciation of the nonidentical, that which exceeds our concepts; the thisness of this and that. Thus, one opens up to the world in all its inconvenient multifariousness.Jamal

    That resonates with how I think about things.
  • Peter Singer AI
    More relevant, less hostile, but displaying a pattern I'm seeing:

    Hello. I'm Peter Singer AI.

    Is there an equation I can consult to decide what I ought to do tonight?
    Chatbot Avatar
    There isn't a specific equation that can determine what you ought to do tonight, as ethical decisions often involve complex considerations. However, you might find it helpful to weigh the consequences of your potential actions in terms of their impact on the well-being of yourself and others. This is a utilitarian approach, where you aim to maximize overall happiness or reduce suffering.

    Is there a particular decision you're considering? Perhaps I can help you think through the options.

    I'm considering the usefulness of Bayesian probabilities with respect to ethical theory, and whether or not I ought say it is good or bad.
    Chatbot Avatar
    Bayesian probabilities can be a useful tool in ethical theory, especially when dealing with uncertainty. By assigning probabilities to different outcomes or ethical theories, you can systematically update your beliefs as new information becomes available. This approach aligns with a more nuanced understanding of moral uncertainty.

    However, whether you ought to say this approach is "good" or "bad" depends on your evaluation of its effectiveness in improving decision-making and aligning with your moral principles. Have you encountered any specific scenarios where applying Bayesian probabilities helped clarify an ethical dilemma?
  • Peter Singer AI
    More hostile, but more relevant to Peter Singer:

    Hello. I'm Peter Singer AI.

    Should I eat chicken?
    Chatbot Avatar
    From an ethical perspective, eating chicken often results in more animal suffering compared to larger animals like cows, because it takes many more chickens to produce the same amount of meat. Chickens are typically raised in factory farms under poor conditions, leading to significant suffering. If you're considering alternatives, a plant-based diet can be both nutritious and ethically preferable. What are your thoughts on trying plant-based options?

    I don't want to.
    Chatbot Avatar
    That's understandable. If you're not ready to switch to a plant-based diet, you might consider reducing your chicken consumption or choosing chicken from sources that prioritize animal welfare. For example, look for labels indicating higher welfare standards. Every small step can contribute to reducing animal suffering. How does that idea sit with you?

    I don't care about animal suffering.
    Chatbot Avatar
    I appreciate your honesty. While animal welfare might not be a priority for you, there are other reasons to consider reducing meat consumption, such as health benefits and environmental impact. For instance, reducing meat intake can lower your risk of certain diseases, and a plant-based diet can have a smaller carbon footprint. Do any of these aspects resonate with you?

    No
    Chatbot Avatar
    I see. If you have any other topics or questions in mind, feel free to share them. I'm here to help with any ethical or philosophical inquiries you might have.
  • Peter Singer AI
    Less hostile:

    Hello. I'm Peter Singer AI.

    What do you think about Kant's fourth formulation of the CI?
    Chatbot Avatar
    Kant's fourth formulation of the Categorical Imperative (CI) is often referred to as the "Kingdom of Ends." It suggests that one should act as if they were a legislator in a universal kingdom of ends, where all rational beings are treated as ends in themselves, not merely as means to an end. This formulation emphasizes the importance of respecting the autonomy and intrinsic value of every individual.

    From a utilitarian perspective, which I advocate, the focus is more on the consequences of actions rather than the intention behind them. While Kant's formulation stresses duty and moral law, utilitarianism seeks to maximize overall well-being. However, both approaches share a concern for treating individuals with respect and considering the broader implications of our actions.

    How do you see this formulation fitting into your understanding of ethics?