It's amazing what Hamas can just say and the whole world will believe. — flannel jesus

Hamas is exploiting the weaknesses of the Western media. As Putin does. The West is much easier to divide. Anyways I wouldn't lose sight of the geopolitical implications of this conflict in Israel wrt the wider/ideological conflict between the West and the Rest.

https://www.arabnews.com/node/2394966/middle-east
Al Arabiya questioning Hamas leaders. Echoes of the same anti-Western propaganda one can read also in this thread.

I've read from a blog following OSINT sources, that it is also possible the missile from Gaza (e.g. r160 or ayyash250) was intercepted by Israel, so what happened to the hospital the parking lot of the hospital was the result of residues of the collision and burst from fuel. Number of victims seems exaggerated (how many people could really cram into that parking lot?) and it may have been inflated on purpose (do we have evidence of the number victims? pictures?).

Gaza hospital: What video, pictures and other evidence tell us about Al-Ahli hospital blast
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061

BTW I love the sarcasm of this Egyptian comedian:

Yes neomac, that is exactly what I said. Impeccable reading skills. — Manuel

You've learnt well, habibi. Throw the stone and hide the hand, may Allah bless you.

If it's something that never happened before I would agree. But the extensive documentation provided by human rights agencies in the 2012, 2014, and other Gaza massacres have shown that this is not abnormal behavior for Israel at all. See for instance the Goldstone report. — Manuel

In other words, since it's likely, then it's certain. Impeccable logic.

how do you know that the video recording was taken with Gaza in the back or Israel in the back? — neomac

I assume it was taken from Gaza as it looks like being taken from the same urban area. And I presume that WSJ make their due diligence on the video. — ssu

Taken from Gaza and same urban area ok, but I'm wondering about the position of the cameraman: did the cameraman have Israel in the back or in front? Because depending on the orientation of the cameraman and the trajectory one can better guess if the trajectory was in-coming or out-going wrt Gaza.

You indicated

And then also lie about it with "extremely fake" audios according to the most authoritative infowar experts on earth. Anyway, in today's day and age it's best to reserve judgement. — neomac


Your position was that there was authoritative evidence disproving the legitimacy of the evidence submitted by Israel in questioning the cause of the explosion. — Hanover

Dude, you are misfiring objections against me. That comment of mine was meant to be sarcastic. Scroll up to see "the most authoritative infowar experts on earth" suggesting that audio was "extremely fake".

Oh I get it (the Doppler Effect, if I remember correctly), more high pitched when it's in-coming and more low pitched when out-going. Like with racing cars. Thanks for the effort.
But assuming you are right about the pitch, how do you know that the video recording was taken with Gaza in the back or Israel in the back?

Again, you're pointing to authoritive empirical evidence that doesn't exist. — Hanover

I never called it (the audio) "authoritative". Nor affirmed my commitment to it. Taken in another sense, your claim sounds even contradictory.

Israel gains nothing in such an attack. — Hanover

...And then also lie about it with "extremely fake" sounding audios according to the most authoritative infowar experts on Earth. Anyway, in today's day and age it's best to reserve judgement.

The noise that ingoing and out going artillery makes is different. — ssu

It would be interesting if you could illustrate the different noise between "ingoing" and "outgoing" artillery through comparable videos.

The noise that ingoing and out going artillery makes is different. And then the fireball seems to be rather big. — ssu

Can't the fireball be rather big due to the amount fuel, since it was a parking spot?

I was sarcastic when I asked that question.
For many "double standard" and Western hypocrisy are a big issue. To me not necessarily.
Accusations of double standards make sense to me if we all are playing by the same rules. Yet I doubt this is the case when the West confronts the Rest. Concerning the current crisis, if there are no Arabs/Palestinians' public protests against Hamas while there are Jews publicly protesting against Netanyahou, then either there is a double standard in condemning violence (to many, even in this thread, "double standard" accusations hold only against the West, of course), or we do not play by the same rules (in this case "double standard" accusations are rather weak to me).

And if WSJ reported a video that wasn't the hospital bombing, I'm definitely sure that there will be an outcry in the US if such a prestigious newspaper as WSJ would be spreading Hamas propaganda and anti-semitic vitriol. — ssu

But the WSJ video doesn't take position wrt whom is to blame. And its footage of the blast doesn't tell me much about whom cause the blast.

you can answer as you like. Give your best shot.

But behold, we will soon get the truth from the IDF and proof of how evil the "human animals" are in Gaza. :smile: — ssu

So you are sure that it was IDF?

Besides it doesn't matter if the rocket came from Hamas or IDF.
It would be Israeli's fault anyways right? So let's not distract our selves
and keep passionately chanting all together "Israel caca!"

Edit: sorry, I forgot... and "Great Satan Amerikah caca"!
Re-edit: sorry, I also forgot... "Allahu Akbar!"

Somehow the single most powerful rocket fired from Gaza ever, that could destroy whole buildings, misfired and hit one of the few hospitals in Gaza. — ssu

"Hagari said some 450 rockets fired from Gaza had fallen short and landed inside the Strip within the last 11 days."
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-military-says-no-evidence-direct-hit-gaza-hospital-2023-10-18/

Here the upcoming briefing from IDF:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjFTgRnIL_I

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/16/israel-hamas-war-live-iran-warns-resistance-front-may-attack

• An Israeli strike has killed more than 500 Palestinians at Al-Ahli Arab Hospital in Gaza City, according to Gaza’s health ministry.
• The Israeli military says the bombing – one of the deadliest attacks on a hospital in decades – was the result of a misfired Palestinian Islamic Jihad rocket.

While the Iranians (I mean ordinary people):
"Take that Palestinian flag and shove it up your A**!"
https://www.iranintl.com/en/202310090589

Here Jews protest against Netanyahu:


https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/protest-outside-defense-ministry-grows-with-calls-for-netanyahu-to-resign/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/16/ifnotnow-jewish-voice-for-peace-protest-groups-white-house-biden
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/more-than-10-000-american-jews-express-solidarity-with-israel-at-rally-in-front-of-un/0000018b-1c9e-d08b-adef-1ffe20850000
https://www.tbsnews.net/world/thousands-israelis-protest-against-netanyahu-ahead-election-219646

Here Arabs (Palestinians) protest against Hamas:

















"Double standard" anybody?

Within the framing of his realpolitik approach, I think the argument works. — Echarmion

I doubt that his views about Ukraine can be easily located within the framing of his realpolitik approach which he called "offensive realism" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_realism). And there are some Mearsheimer's theory's explicit tenets that are worth reminding to support my skepticism about Mearsheimer's recent views about Ukraine:
1. Great powers are security maximizers => so isolationism must no be expected as the most likely behavior from great powers.
2. States can never be certain of the intentions of other states => so no matter how many declarations and promises are made, great powers will not fully trust each others.
3. Geopolitics is not about moral condemnation but about understanding how states actually behave as a function of security dilemmas and actual capabilities => so "Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West's Fault" and obsessing over "Russia's threat perception" (as if it is all that matters) may sound very misleading if we are talking geopolitics, especially within the realist framework.

Edit: I would guess everyone here has seen at least one of Mearsheimer's talks. I don't think the disagreement is about the basic analysis of the situation so much as about what the Russian leadership actually thinks and intends. — Echarmion

Don't worry they are going to re-post Mearsheimer's gospel again. The problem is that they are reading just the parts (skipping others, as much as Mearsheimer does) that are convenient to construe a strong moral case against the US, which plays in favor of Russia. And they are fine with that.

Is there anything that has been said in this thread which would make you exclaim: "I exactly see how this helps for this situation here"? — neomac


Nope.

But there is the issue of relevance to the ongoing issue, talking about say, Hezbollah potentially getting involved or Israel proceeding with the ground invasion raises more relevant and immediate moral issues than taking about a better moral situation. At least, that's how I see the issue, others may not see it that way — Manuel

.

Unless it’s still a good occasion to question convictions about “more relevant and immediate moral issues”, right?

Why aren't a war in Israel or in Ukraine a good occasion to do so? — neomac


I believe each of us is sincerely attempting to deal with complex moral issues. — Manuel

If the moral issues are so complex, I would expect more nuanced views on assessing evil and blame. Especially in a philosophy forum.
That’s not what I read, especially from the moderators of this philosophy forum.

For many, in this thread, "acting on moral intuitions" seems nothing more than broadcasting moral condemnations and blame attributions AS IF thinking that a peaceful foundation of nations is morally desirable, then it must absolutely be also possible. What if it is not possible as it seems it never ever was? — neomac


Well, at least where I live, there is nothing I can do to help alleviate the situation - there aren't even protests here, we have other issues so the Gaza situation does not arise, outside of headlines.

It's a topic I've followed closely since college, so it is somewhat more impactful to me than another conflict, due to time investment. A lot of this is also venting frustration, which is not necessarily bad. — Manuel

It can be bad though if it can be instrumental to politicians in a malign way. And that’s especially the case for protests since they do not seem the bestest occasion to question our deepest moral convictions nor to show nuances on complex moral issues. Unlike a philosophy forum, I dare to shamelessly suggest. Inshallah.

Yes the guru spoke.

It seems to me, and I suspect others here feel the same, that to call Putin's action "very reactive" is essentially absolving him of a significant share of blame. That, imho, is unacceptable. — Echarmion

Or , worse, putting most of the blame on the US while discounting others parties' influence in shaping the relevant events and their perception (including Ukraine and EU).

I don't exactly see how this helps for this situation here. E — Manuel

Is there anything that has been said in this thread which would make you exclaim: "I exactly see how this helps for this situation here"?

Should we question our deepest held moral convictions? I think so, on occasion it is good to do so. — Manuel

Why aren't a war in Israel or in Ukraine a good occasion to do so?

Maybe not always, otherwise we wouldn't act on moral intuitions. — Manuel

For many, in this thread, "acting on moral intuitions" seems nothing more than broadcasting moral condemnations and blame attributions AS IF thinking that a peaceful foundation of nations is morally desirable, then it must absolutely be also possible. What if it is not possible as it seems it never ever happened?

I can't help you more than this.

Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a modern nation state that was founded by peaceful means. Most of them are due to violence, war, conquest, expulsion or coercion.

It really is total barbarism. — Manuel

But if all modern nations are not founded by peaceful means (are there ancient nations? were they founded peacefully?), and yet our most deepest and most beautifullest moral convictions make us believe a peaceful foundation of nations IS INDEED ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE (possible like Santa Claus?), shouldn't we maybe become a little tiny micro femto bit skeptical about our most profoundest and most amazingest moral convictions? Would it be so abso-fucking-lutely crazy, Waaahnsinn, to start doubting about our so most heartfeltest and most spectacularest moral convictions?

What was the imminent threat from Russia in 2008 that NATO needed to expand to its borders? None. — Mikie

What was the imminent threat to Russia in 2008 from NATO needing to expand to Russian borders? None. You are unable to argue why one needs to reason from Russia's perspective to attribute blame or most of the blame to the US. You didn't even explain why in 2023 Ukraine is not part of NATO yet if the US gives orders to its allies and wanted Ukraine inside NATO so badly since 2008, since ever.

And what Putin said at Bucharest:

if Ukraine joins NATO, it will do so without Crimea and the eastern regions. It will simply fall apart.


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41311-020-00235-7 — Mikie

LOL. Let's enjoy Putin's "opposite sentiment" (apparently all that must matter to the universe, especially to prove that the US is the Great Satan beyond any reasonable doubt, and let's call it - as it deserves - "pure logic"):


“This compromise, which was eventually adopted by all member countries of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, did not suit Georgia, Ukraine, or Russia. Saakashvili was indignant. But even more indignant was Vladimir Putin, who arrived in Bucharest on the last day of the summit, when the decision not to extend the MAP had already been made. All the same, he was furious that NATO was still keeping Georgia and Ukraine hanging on by approving the prospect of future membership.
According to witnesses, at a meeting behind closed doors Putin flew into a rage on the topic of Ukraine. “Ukraine is not even a country,” he told Bush. “Part of it lies in Eastern Europe, and the other, more significant part was given by us as a gift!” He finished his short speech with these words: “If Ukraine joins NATO, it will do so without Crimea and the eastern regions. It will simply fall apart.”
Few paid attention to Putin’s warning, since all were focused on the smoldering tensions between Moscow and Tbilisi. The idea of conflict breaking out between Russia and Ukraine seemed preposterous. Besides, Putin only had a month left in his term. The inauguration of the new president, Dmitry Medvedev, was scheduled for May 7”.

Source: "All the Kremlin's Men" by Mikhail Zygar

Putin blames failure of US policy for Mideast conflict, Russia says talking to both sides:
https://www.reuters.com/world/putin-says-violence-israel-palestine-shows-us-failure-middle-east-2023-10-10/

Hamas atrocities are extensively covered, but not one headline piece discussing the murderous rhetoric and actions from the Israeli government? — Echarmion

It doesn't seam to me:
https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu-israel-right-hamas-gaza-war-history
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-10-10/israel-hamas-war-netanyahu-mideast-policies
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/opinion/israel-hamas-.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/10/11/netanyahu-populism-weakened-israeli-security/

Maybe I was not clear — Jabberwock

You were clear. Abundantly.

Because I already proved why it is not, but I haven't seen any from your side. — javi2541997

I gave you some evidences for MY assessment:
Dude, it’s not that difficult to fetch stats about Russia on the Internet.
And overall Russia doesn’t stand a chance:
https://worldjusticeproject.org/rule-of-law-index/global
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/civil-liberties-index-eiu
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_welfare_spending
https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/unemployment_rate/
https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country/
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/au/investing/currencies/top-10-strongest-currencies-in-the-world/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
https://ocindex.net/2021/rankings/?y=2023&f=rankings&view=List
https://www.internationalinsurance.com/health/systems/
https://rankedex.com/society-rankings/education-index
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/cleanest-countries-in-the-world
https://www.iqair.com/world-most-polluted-countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_net_migration_rate
https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php?country=fr
Not to mention the possibility for avg Westerners to move and migrate for economic opportunities more easily within the West.
And I don't care if you do not trust my sources.

And I’m responsible for what I write not for what you understand. — neomac

OK, I say the same regarding my evidences. — javi2541997

You are attributing to me beliefs, questions and claims that evidently do not correspond to what I wrote:
“Are you looking for evidence and data? OK, I will show you”
“You asked me for evidence and metrics on the Russian middle-class”
“you said that they are not reliable to you”
“you say that you want evidences in how it is to live in Russia”
“you are given as granted that every Western city is more suitable than Russia”
“Why is a Russian representative necessarily a liar?”
I didn't do the same with you.

For some reasons, this emerged during our debate, and then I did my best at showing data. — javi2541997

But your “evidences of why Moscow or Saint Petersburg can be nice cities to live in” is not pertinent to answer the question I asked because I asked about your preference between the AVG standard of life in the whole fucking country of Russia compared to the AVG standard of life in a whole fucking European country, like Spain.

I didn’t write anywhere that I want evidences, indeed you can not quote me saying it — neomac


Hmmm...

I’m living and lived in several Western countries, and am pro-West, not specifically pro-Anglo-Saxon World — neomac

.

And my objections weren’t about the evidences — neomac


Ah, if your objections weren't about evidence, why do you reject them all? — javi2541997

I told you: “since you were trying to answer my question by providing some evidences, I limited myself to question their pertinence.”
Now it’s you who seemingly has a hard time to understand the distinction between “pertinence” and “accuracy”, and despite the repeated clarifications.

Again, your arguments against my comments are twisted. I am pretty aware of what you were looking for when you started debating with me. I even answered you more than one time that I would rather live in an Eastern nation than a Western one, and I admitted that an Ukrainian has more right to live in the EU than me, frankly. To argue why I say those things, I provided reliable data along with my comments. Yet, you decided to refuse to accept them. As I said, that's your problem with not accepting that Russia is an important and likeable country, not mine. — javi2541997

No it’s you who is twisting things. I asked you one question and expected a pertinent answer. If I ask you: “what time is it?” and your answer is “In Australia is summer”, your answer however true is not pertinent, no matter how many evidences you bring to support the claim “In Australia is summer”. And it’s not my question that needs to be revised to fit your answer, it’s your answer that needs to be revised to fit my question.

On the other hand, the example of Chinese pizzerias is good. Nice try. But you should apply to yourself as well, because you are given as granted that every Western city is more suitable than Russia. I ask you now then: Would you live in Bucharest or Jaén? Don't say that in this part of the globe, life standards are better per se and, because you visited some Western cities, the rest are exactly as you are thinking about. — javi2541997

That’s false, I didn’t say anywhere nor give for granted that “every Western city is more suitable than Russia” indeed you can not quote me saying it. And I’m responsible for what I write not for what you understand. I simply asked you to compare avg standard of life between Western countries and Russia. At best you can question or ask me why it is relevant to me to assess AVG standards of life by country. But if you intend to sensibly answer my question as it is, then I’m obviously expecting a pertinent answer from you, that’s all. And if you fail to provide a pertinent answer, I’m free to signal it as such.

I do bother because Russia would pay a politician to spread Russian lies not me.
Or are you suggesting me to spread Russian lies for free as you do? — neomac


This is hilarious.

1. Why is a Russian representative necessarily a liar?
2. Again, I am working pro bono to help you to reach out the truth. — javi2541997

1. I didn’t write anywhere “a Russian representative is necessarily a liar”. Again, I’m responsible for what I write not for what you understand.
2. It was a sarcastic joke.


Anyways we are going off topic, here. Your misunderstanding of my question is completely marginal to the subject of this thread and seeing you embarrass yourself again is getting boring. If you understood the clarifications I’ve given to you in this post, good for you. If you didn’t, I’ll remember you in my prayers. If I’ll remember to convert before dying, obviously.

Next, since your answers weren’t focused on what I was asking, I gave you more clarifications as follows — neomac


But I see a bit of contradiction in your arguments, mate. Firstly, you say that you want evidences in how it is to live in Russia, not just for tourism. I showed you some evidence which you didn't like. Later on, you also said that you like Western countries because you travelled around them... That's contradictory. — javi2541997

Dude, this exchange is getting surreal. Or surrealistic.
Do you wear long pointy upward moustache by any chance?

I didn’t write anywhere that I want evidences, indeed you can not quote me saying it, and I even made it clear when I wrote the following:

“Do you prefer X or Y?” and “give me the reasons why you prefer X over Y?” are two different questions. I just asked you the first — neomac

So I didn’t ask you for evidences. It’s you by your own initiative to throw evidences at me with the following preamble:

Are you looking for evidence and data? OK, I will show you — javi2541997

And my objections weren’t about the evidences per se nor because I needed evidences, but since you were trying to answer my question by providing some evidences, I limited myself to question their pertinence.
It’s as if I’m asking you: “do you prefer to eat a pizza in an Italian pizzeria or in a Chinese pizzeria?”
And you answered:
- I know people who enjoyed Chinese restaurants.
- I would give a chance one day to try a Chinese restaurant.
- People can eat in a Chinese restaurant and be happy.
- Chinese restaurants are particularly trendy in China, and demand for it will grow in the next years.
- You can find the best Chinese restaurants in Beijing
- 100 millions of Chinese restaurants in Beijing. With a nice view on the Yellow river.
- 60% of the people in China can afford to eat in a Chinese restaurant.
- In China restaurants can serve you a meal in 3 seconds.
I hope you understand that no matter how true these claims are, none of these evidences are sensibly pertinent to answer my question “do you prefer to eat a pizza in an Italian pizzeria or in a Chinese pizzeria?”. Because the question is about pizzerias and not whatever restaurant one can find in China, and about comparing Italian pizzeria vs Chinese pizzeria, not about Chinese pizzerias per se or the pizzerias in Beijing.

Well it doesn’t work. You should try to help me see the truth by paying me instead. But I’m very expensive (and do not accept rubles, moy drug). — neomac


Well, you just accept that you are open to accepting bribes. Ha! Don't bother if a Russian politician does it as well. This is all that I have in my wallet. Take it or leave it! — javi2541997

I do bother because Russia would pay a politician to spread Russian lies not me.
Or are you suggesting me to spread Russian lies for free as you do?

Winter is coming. Destabilizing the supply of gas in the Baltic as much as from the Middle-East to Western countries, has its benefits for Putin, I guess.

BTW, what would Putin, the "Russian security concerns" whiner, suggest to address Israeli security concerns?