Why it requires proof? — EugeneW

So we can't proof to others we dream, perceive and are alive. So what? — EugeneW

Exactly! Get my point? — EugeneW

That's no proof your perception exists. For all I know you don't have a perception of reality. How can you proof to me you see the world? — EugeneW

Snow is white to humans. It is a fact about human perception and language use. I have no issue with modest claims like cats being on mats, etc. But for me this does not tell us much about an objective world, just how a fragment of that world seems to us, based on the constructions of language and perception. — Tom Storm

A 1 hour dream lasts 5 minutes. REM. Seems good enough proof. A dog barking. Ýou talking in your sleep. Proof! — EugeneW

Is this an empirical statement or a statement about grammar ? Or is it hard to say? — lll

The thing is, I am not sure. — Tom Storm

Reality? Not sure what is in scope here. In general, it seems to me that communities determine what is true through a collaborative exercise in creating agreement. You could say that truth is created not found. Examples of such truths might include - 'democracy as the best government'; 'the value of education'; 'god/s care about humans', 'the imperative of progress'... — Tom Storm

I am not certain what the term objective reality refers to. — Tom Storm

I disagree that the 'outside world' is intelligible to us, but we may do better with our inside world - our thoughts. — Tom Storm

We're desperately trying to find something that doesn't exist, because we simply cannot comprehend the confrontation with the fact, that the universe doesn't care whether or not we exist. — Carlikoff

That's it! There is no scientific evidence of what goes on inside of matter. Science can describe the outside but not the inside. — EugeneW

It might seem odd to ask but how do we know perception exists? — Carlikoff

That we can test every choice, simulate their effects for analysis, even the ones you don't like, must mean something, oui? If we come with preinstalled preference packages (no free will), your choice will be determined by them, obviously, but the point is virtual choices seem not to be affected by one's preference package. — Agent Smith

To be is to be a mind. To be a mind is to be a decision-maker.

The world matters in the formation of such minds. Nature has limited, or constrained, the kinds of ideas that we can generate. Here one looks to the ecological conditions that minds adapt to for guidance. Nature has also insured that we can hit on the right ideas very often. Ideas are then not arbitrary. They are adaptive; they guide behavior. If the ideas are bad, they are rejected. The constraints on our hypotheses are tied to our creative potential....

Your kindness is appreciated. — lll

Probably because whether you dream or not has very little impact on yours and other's lives. — Philosophim

Because such a belief has a fundamental way of altering that person, and other people's lives. — Philosophim

When you have divine guidance, there is no possibility of thinking, amending, or improving. If "Gays are evil" for example, you can't have a rational discussion with that person, as they feel like they are divinely correct, thus your mortal arguments are against God, ignorant, and sinful. This stunts people's growth and makes them emotional animals. Satisfying for the person, but can potentially be terrible for themselves and society. — Philosophim

Of course no one walks around with the kind of equipment needed to spot floaters :wink: - and - this does not affect your larger point. — EricH

Ok, sorry about the crossed wires, I don't think our positions are changed by your update. — universeness

With all due respect, you need to read a response more carefully.

If every human alive stated that god exists then I would not be calling it a fable, because I would believe it too. — universeness — universeness

If each human you meet, confirms to you (if you ask them) that in their opinion, humans dream, then that is proof enough.

— universeness

So anecdotal account can serve as proof. What if every human you meet confirms to you that god exists, would you accept that as proof of god? — L'éléphant

And why should one proof dreams? — EugeneW

You might say you are awake but what if I say that I don't believe you? — EugeneW

So atheism is logical as long as God is fictional ? Isn't that exactly what atheists say? — Hanover

Do you have proof you are awake? You mean that you can never proof pain? — EugeneW

The existence of the universe is proof of gods. — EugeneW

By the same token, can you proof to me that you are awake and not dreaming? — EugeneW

If each human you meet, confirms to you (if you ask them) that in their opinion, humans dream, then that is proof enough. — universeness

What about the denial of Bigfoot, ghosts, or aliens? Can one logically deny those? — Hanover

↪L'éléphant
Just a minor point of correction here. Floaters are real. — EricH

5. That my wife is right. — Benkei

How is this not proof? If I stated, "When I sleep, I have experiences", then if I others say, "Oh yeah, I have that too", that's proof/evidence. If not one but one person in the world had experiences when they slept, then I think you would be right. Even then, brains have been scanned during sleep, and a lot of activity is found in there.To be fair to your argument, perhaps what you meant was more along the lines of "What we specifically dreamed of". — Philosophim

Further, we have medication that eases pain. If we didn't have evidence or proof of pain, then pain medication would be no better than a placebo.

Perhaps again, we don't have proof of your personal experience of what pain feels like. But that doesn't negate the proof that pain exists in people, and has very real physical impact on the brain and body. — Philosophim

Well, I guess an idealist would argue that everything we see, we take for granted as real when it is actually a product of mind. Does that count?

When we see people walking down the road, we take it for granted that they are real. What if only 50% of them are real and the rest spectres?

For me the question sometimes might be: what is it we have reason to doubt? Not so much what is it we don't have proof for. — Tom Storm

If you hear people talking in their sleep you have proof of the dreaming. Likewise for animals. You might even put me under a brain-scanning machine. Then you could see if I dream when asleep. What proof do you need more? Are you a solipsist? — EugeneW

What I wanted to say but didn't now becomes relevant. A person has a religious experience and tells himself he had a one-to-one with God. The religious experience itself can't be denied, it is true and there's no need for proof.

We have to prove that some things need no proof. The reality of a sensation/experience doesn't need an argument, it needs no justification. How do we do that? Looks like the JTB theory of knowledge needs an overhaul. I have no idea how to do that. — Agent Smith

That depends on how a particular society treats religion. — lll

1. What if god is a sensation, like pain is? God's relationship with suffering is well-documented (heaven/hell) (vide religious experience)

2. Is "I am in pain" = "God exists"? The former is private but the latter is not. My pain vs. Our God. Both are propositions in their own right. — Agent Smith

Are you changing your tune or is it that I misunderstood you? That was quick. — Agent Smith