The rule following argument is an argument from underdetermination. — Count Timothy von Icarus

You seemed to think the conclusion of his argument is skepticism. In fact, it's just a question: if meaning doesn't come from rule following, where does it come from? He has his own answer. If you noticed in his essay, he encourages professors to offer this question to their students as a vehicle for contemplating the private language argument and how it impacts all historic rule following.

My other point was that Wittgenstein and Kripke both come from a tradition deeply shaped by Hume. — Count Timothy von Icarus

True, in large part their philosophical world developed out of a reaction against British empiricism.

Have there been no advances in philosophy or logic in the last few hundred years? — Banno

We live in a very different world. They didn't even have the number zero.

Yes, that's the idea behind equipollence. Phyrronean skepticism relies on a sort of underdetermination and Hume is specifically riffing off this, although he takes it in the direction of hedonism instead of seeking ataraxia. They aren't just similar, they're directly historically related.

The empirical tradition begins in ancient skepticism (where it gets its name). That the modern reformulation tends towards skepticism is not surprising. — Count Timothy von Icarus

None of this has anything to do with Wittgenstein or Kripke.

True, Kripkenstein doesn't say language isn't meaningful. They're just saying meaning can't come down to rule following.

Yes, I know. My questions remain. — Leontiskos

:meh:

not? And is "truth-apt" the same as "correct"? Janus said it could be correct, not that it could be truth-apt. — Leontiskos

Truth aptness is just about whether P can be true or false.

The rain is colorblind.

The above statement is not truth apt because it doesn't make any sense.

The rain is drizzling.

The above statement is truth apt, because it can be true or false. Once we verify it, we'll know which it is. Let's say that for whatever reason, verification of this P is beyond our abilities. We would say it may be correct, but we can't verify.

There are those who deny that unverifiable P's are truth apt. This is related to their conception of truth as a social utensil.

I don't want it to be my business — Harry Hindu

Good. Ignore it then.

More candidly: If there is no way of determining whether something is correct then how could it be said to be correct? — Leontiskos

P's truth aptness isn't determined by whether we know a way to verify P.

I was just reading about Hegel and his situation with Napoleon. Hegel believed Napoleon was the World Soul, bringing in a new age. A lot of young Germans believed that. Hegel though he was watching the end of history. This is a fusion of esoteric wisdom and ancient apocalypticism. Instead of there being a second coming of Christ, it's Napoleon, advancing the principles of the French Revolution. Hegel eventually became disillusioned, but I was looking for whether he ever revised his philosophy to reflect the change. I don't think he did, and this isn't unusual for apocalypticists. If the vision isn't realized the way they thought, they often just put the date further into the future.

Hegel's experience with Napoleon wasn't an isolated thing. Across the world, from Russia to the USA, people were imagining that they were on the threshold of a new era, and if you think about it, they actually were. We could take Hegel's experience as an attempt to understand what was happening.

I think that with Marxism, the fever set in again, this time with the Proletariat animated by the World Soul to emancipate the world. It didn't happen the way they thought it would, but once again, people were thinking in terms of a massive shift in human life. In Russia, Marxists believed that even language would change as the new era emerged. There was a Russian poet who tried to write poetry in the "new" language. So I think the answer is yes: prior to disillusionment, German Marxists thought philosophy was basically done. The great metaphysical journey was finished.

Augustine is famous for taking the apocalypticism in Christianity and putting it in the category of myth: by myth, I don't mean something that's false exactly, just not to be taken entirely literally. I think with negative dialectics, Adorno was doing something similar.

If I identified as the reincarnated spirit of Elvis Presley and petitioned government to force people to refer to me as, "The King", to upgrade bathrooms toilets to thrones for the King, or that children must pray to the spirit of the King in school, would I be keeping my delusion to myself? — Harry Hindu

You mean like out on a street corner?

We already have laws in the books for discrimination and treating people equally. — Harry Hindu

Those laws protect trans people from discrimination based on their trans status. It's illegal to refuse employment or housing to trans people. Does that cause your head to explode?

Have you been consistent in informing atheists that there is room on the planet for Christians and the atheists should not squash the Christians? — Harry Hindu

Both Christians and atheists are protected by the first amendment. People can be as deluded as they want to be. It's none of your business.

The difference is that I'm consistent in my rejection of all delusions and those that want government to affirm their delusions. — Harry Hindu

For the most part, the support the LGBTQ community is getting is about capitalism. Companies want to virtue signal. And there's nothing anybody can do to stop them. Have you not received diversity education from your employer?

Ok. I think you're going a little too far, though. There's room on the planet for people who become trans. There's no reason to squash them. Just let them be. The woke bullshit will stabilize itself over time.

When you said "If a black man can get rich in America, it's not racist in the way that actually matters." I take that to mean "if a black man can get rich in America, it's not REAL racism. It's "racism", but it's not actually hurting anyone."

If you didn't mean that, what did you mean? — RogueAI

The racism that matters is stuff like red-lining. If a particular white person doesn't like blacks, but this doesn't impact my ability to own property, I don't see it as a kind of racism that makes any difference to me. People can think whatever they like.

Of course. Black women don't have it hard in this country cause Oprah! — RogueAI

I didn't comment on how hard life is for anyone. Everyone has challenges. Everyone has advantages. A lot of things come down to mindset.

"There's not a white man in this room who would change places with me, AND I'M RICH!" — RogueAI

If a black man can get rich in America, it's not racist in the way that actually matters. You're talking about the way people think. They can think whatever they like.

I'm agnostic on this question. But we can see how different answers to it will give rise to important differences in how we view the connection of mind and the world. — J

Wittgenstein pointed out that we can't know the answer, but he admitted that he couldn't resist being pulled back into questions like that. What's driving us to speculate?

It's about acquiring political power in the form of using people with mental disorders as political clubs against your political opponents. — Harry Hindu

Maybe, but there's nothing you can do about it.

Yet everyone on the team anticipates the same moment in time.
— frank
Each person in the team has access only to his or her psychological time. As I argued in the OP, we cannot experience subjective time since we don't have any sensory system for it. — MoK

So why do they pull at the same time?

You should conduct a reading of Parmenides. That would be awesome.

Can't live with them. Can't live without them.

:grin: :up:

As @Metaphysician Undercover recently noted, Plato obliterates his own theory of forms in Parmenides. Do you think you might be attacking a strawman?

Not so much. Forms might be a type of universal, or a theory about universals. But universals need not be perfect or idealised, nor exist in a world distinct from our own, nor cause the properties of particulars. — Banno

Nit picking.

1: You said there's no need to invoke forms to explain what we do.

2: Forms and universals are the same thing

3: You asserted that there's no need to invoke universals to explain what we do

4. In fact, you can't explain anything at all without using universals. You certainly can't explain what we do without using them.

What I did there was highlight your use of "explain" to lead into reflections on how we're all bound to universals because we can't think or speak without using them. So I was criticizing your attempt to frame priorities in terms of actions.

Yes, we certainly do things. This was never in question. But without conscious thoughts about actions, there would be nothing. Nothing acknowledged. Nothing remembered. Nothing asked. Nothing answered. And definitely nothing explained. Because you can't think without universals. They are on the table and you can't sweep them off.

There is a pathway from here to Gnosticism. Let me know if I need to flesh that out.

There's no need to invoke forms to explain what we do. — Banno

You can't explain what we do without using universals. Try it.

The difference is that you simply accepted their claims without question. Do you do that with other extraordinary claims that are made? — Harry Hindu

I usually keep my bullshit to myself.

You mean you haven't and yet you speaking for them? — Harry Hindu

No, I don't mean that.

How does one live as a woman if one is a guy? — Harry Hindu

Why don't you find one and talk to them about it?

What does that even mean? — Harry Hindu

I think you're pretending not to understand what a trans woman is. It's a guy who is living as a woman, with or without surgical and hormonal modifications to enhance the appearance of femininity.

Yes. I disagree that a man can transition to being a woman. A man can transition to being a trans woman. I don't really understand why anyone would deny that, but I'm open to hearing the answer (though I might still disagree even after understanding it).

I think it's very clear that transitioning is psychologically precarious for some people. Apparently not for others. All any of us can do is look past the face, the race, the sex, the religion, the what have you, to the living breathing being who animates the form. I sort of feel sorry for people who can't do that.

It's not a matter of rights. If the public owns the toilet. Access to it is up to the public.

Irrelevant. What needs to be proven here is if a man can be a woman. — Harry Hindu

So you're abandoning your whole "everybody has a right to be safe" thing? You're leaving me to pee in front of dwarves even though I don't feel safe?

By allowing men into women's safe spaces, the assaults in bathrooms will go up undoubtedly. — Harry Hindu

Prove it.

What are the statistics on dwarf on normal-statured people assaults vs men on women assaults? — Harry Hindu

There are probably more men assaulting women. What are the statistics on men assaulting women in bathrooms?

That depends on whether your fear is realistic or not (delusional). — Harry Hindu

Is the state supposed to sort out the nature of my fear, and then rule on the dwarf issue?

I'm saying that everyone, including women, has the right to feel safe. — Harry Hindu

If I don't feel safe peeing with a dwarf in the room, is the state supposed to do something about that?

Hollywood went to crap 30, or 40 years ago. This is just the icing on the cake. — Punshhh

A crap cake?

Witt didn't believe all meaning is in the context of language games (PI 43). That's your outlook.

Here's a simple language game involving an infinite regress.

Here's a sqip: i

If you take any squip, and put an "i" on it's left side, the result is also a squip.

So since i is a squip, so is ii. and since ii is a squip, so is iii.

You get the idea.

Here's a language game about that language game: Is there a largest squip?

Now, where is the problem? — Banno

That's not an infinite regress.