Comments

  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?
    we are so far from being on the same page as to make responding pointless.Janus

    It doesn't surprise me to hear you say that! My entire problem with your view as on philosophy is that it makes discourse pointless. To make progress, you would have to be willing to question assumptions which your interlocutor does not agree with, but it seems that is just not an option for you. You are what I would call a dogmatist.
  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?
    It doesn't stop there, though—the most salient question for me then would be "how best to live?"Janus

    That is strange, because asking that question involves a lot of presuppositions, chiefly that there are better and worse ways of living. So it seems after you realized you barely know anything you proceed to ignore that realization and just believe whatever you like?

    The only potential universally held assumption (or is it a realization?) that I can think of is that we know and can know very little.Janus

    The important thing isn't to know, but to assume. Assumptions are fine as long as they are not questioned, that's why only universally held assumptions are acceptable within a discourse.

    Once this is realized we still need to work with provisional hypotheses in order to liveJanus

    "As the example of Socrates shows", living isn't the goal of philosophy.

    I would include as rational persuasion both practical and pure reasonJanus

    I have no idea what persuasion through "practical reason" looks like.
  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?
    You speak as though that purported "end goal" is a given.Janus

    I'm sorry for implying that, it's just how I've personally always seen it. Philosophy is of course an activity, people might have different goals in doing it, I just can't understand what they are.

    How would any philosophical truth ever be demonstrable such as to gain universal assent?Janus

    You'd have to show the truth to be a necessary consequence of a universally held set of assumptions. But well, I didn't literally mean "everyone", just everyone who participates in philosophical discourse.

    Discussion would still allow for folk to be influenced by others.Janus

    What is desirable about "influence" per se? I mean that word runs the gamut from peer pressure to lobotomy. What is desirable to me is only the possibility of rational persuasion.
  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?
    The question was posed to J.Janus

    Yes sorry, I didn't see that at the time. What matters to me though is that it's a reasonable question to ask.

    Well, for those presupposed to doubt it, there are plenty of grounds for doubt. For those predisposed to believe it, there are plenty of grounds for belief.Wayfarer

    In other words the believer and the doubter are both justified? This is very perplexing to me, I wouldn't feel comfortable doubting a justified belief or vice versa.

    "To each there own philosophy" I say, because that takes proper account of human diversity. Would you have it any other way?Janus

    I certainly would. I mean, the theoretical end goal of philosophy is for everyone to believe the same thing, that thing being the truth. In my opinion this idea of private justification instead promotes a static kind of diversity, where a bunch of dogmatists each stay in their respective camp and engage in discourse only performatively.
  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?
    Science typically provides no such axis, as it is generally assumes that the universe is devoid of intrinsic meaning and/or value, so a claim to 'higher knowledge' is often challenged on the grounds that there is no objective justification for it.

    For example:

    what do you mean by "highest"? Most comprehensive or overarching. most critical, most meta-cognitive? Or most spiritual, most enlightening, wisest?
    — Janus
    Wayfarer

    In this case a more innocent framing would perhaps be that Janus is asking questions because he doesn't understand what you mean? The way I see it, what you're saying is that you shouldn't have to explain yourself because we would automatically understand you if only we hadn't grown up in scientistic western society.
  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?
    I don’t think Conze says or implies that.Wayfarer

    To me he very clearly implies it, but I guess I can't insist on my own interpretation.

    The purpose of my quoting the Edward Conze text was simply an illustration of the idea of there being a higher truth - something for which I am generally criticized for suggesting. But to get down to basics, this is because I don't think our culture possesses a vertical axis along which the description of 'higher' makes any sense.Wayfarer

    This is such a strange way of framing what you're doing. Of course if you want to introduce people to a new idea ("the axis of quality") you must be prepared to justify it, this is quite normal. Saying you are "criticized for suggesting" your ideas makes it sound like you're being persecuted, is that how it feels to you?

    And of course it would be so nice if your ideas were culturally embedded in your society so you didn't have to argue for them at all, a lot of us probably wish for that.
  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?


    Well here is a critical difference in what Conze is saying and what Plato is saying:

    there is in every soul an organ or instrument of knowledgePlato, The Republic

    Whatever happened to the "rare and unordinary faculty" of perennial philosophy?

    I hope you understand, that what it is that I find "bleak" in Conzes text is not the idea that philosophy requires effort or that some people are better at it than others, but the idea that it is a hopeless endevour unless you belong to a privileged class of people.
  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?
    That was an excerpt. The entire essay is Buddhist Philosophy and Its European Parallels, Philosophy East and West, 1963.Wayfarer

    Thank you, but does the additional context modify the meaning of the quote in any relevant way?

    Aside from Conze, the principle of monastic lineage in Buddhism and other spiritual traditions assumes the transmission of insight.Wayfarer

    Well I'd like to discuss his text, so let's not put him "aside". But either way, if there really is such an unbroken lineage this could be explained by sages being replaced by other sages without any muggles ever being elevated to sage-hood.

    I think you're very much viewing it through the lens of the rejection of dogmatic Christianity and its 'blind faith'Wayfarer

    That's quite presumptuous, I think my reading is pretty straightforward. You clearly have your own preconceptions about Buddhism and the like, maybe you're viewing the text through that lens?
  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?
    Or in insight. That was, for instance, the basis of the Buddha's authority - one which was never imposed on othersWayfarer

    I'm having a really hard time telling if this is your interpretation of Conzes text or just you laying out your own opinions. I think Conze makes it very clear: insight can not be transmitted or taught to people who lack it. Instead the best we get is submission to a charismatic sage, who we trust to guide us despite our inability to understand the underlying principles of their teachings.

    If you think Conze is saying something else, I'd like to hear your reasons.
  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?
    Those insights are communicated to the student by the teacher. As well as what is learned by their deportment and presence.Wayfarer

    Ok, well, I understand now that is what you believe, but it really is not what I think Edward Conze is saying in the text you quoted. He is talking about wise men with a "rare faculty" whose teachings are based on authority, not personal understanding.

    Of course it's radically un-PC for liberal democracyWayfarer

    Teachers teaching their students is not particularly "un-PC". Neither is the idea of trusting authorities for that matter, but I grant you that it might raise eyebrows in a philosophy forum.
  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?
    It would be bleak if you take such a bleak view. If you were a piano student, presumably you would select a teacher who was an expert in teaching piano, and you would admire and hope to emulate excellent pianists.Wayfarer

    This is not at all what I took Conze to be saying in your quoted text, the so-called sages here are not "teachers", they can't teach you the truth any more than a person with vision can teach a blind man how to see. They have insight that they can't communicate to lesser minds, all we can do is submit to their authority as presented through charisma.
  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?
    I recognise that it is something often exploited by the unscrupulous to exploit the gullibleWayfarer

    Yes there is clearly a problem with putting so much faith in a "charismatic" authority, but aside from that it's possibly the bleakest thing I've ever read as far as philosophy is concerned. I've always thought of philosophy as a personal pursuit of knowledge so to speak, the idea that it's a hopeless effort unless you belong to a chosen elite is quite depressing. It's yet another field where we the plebs must defer to the experts, like we already do with scientists, doctors, lawyers etc.
  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?
    (...) true teaching is based on an authority which legitimizes itself by the exemplary life and charismatic quality of its exponents.Wayfarer

    I have to ask, is this what you yourself believe?
  • Animalism: Are We Animals?
    As if that is the sum total of our achievements….Wayfarer

    The analogy holds, any contest or hierarchy we've ever used to put ourselves above other beings has also been of our own invention. To my mind it's really quite a pathetic thing to do, inventing a game just to win it.
  • Animalism: Are We Animals?
    It seems a bit self-congratulatory to invent a concept (like "value", "meaning", whatever) and then pat ourselves on the back for being the only animal to make use of said concept. Might as well brag about being the only animal to play checkers.
  • Pragmatism Without Goodness
    Obviously when a guy like Dawkins denies "design in nature" (if he ever did), he is talking specifically about biological lifeforms, even if technically he does believe everything is natural (including a human crafting a clay pot). From that perspective "the ability to design" is just another funny little trick cooked up by natural selection, alongside the ability to walk on two feet and the ability to digest food.
  • On delusions and the intuitional gap
    I am not really sure what you're trying to to get at here. What counts as intuitive might be debated, but certain statements like "a line of points cannot be simultaneously continuous and discrete," or "2+2=4," can largely be agreed upon. Are you claiming we lack good warrant for believing these sorts of things?

    Eliminativism, in its most extreme form, does violate these sorts of intuitions.
    Count Timothy von Icarus

    What is "these sorts" referring to here? Eliminativists do not reject 2+2=4 or other mathematical a priori stuff, that sort of thing is not in doubt here. It seems you are bunching some intuitions together into a group, but I don't understand the criteria for membership.

    This would be the claim that "you don't actually experience anything, see blue, hear sounds, etc." But does anyone actually advocate this?Count Timothy von Icarus

    In my opinion, any eliminativist worth the name would of course advocate this. And why not?

    Dennett himself calls this type of eliminitivism "ridiculous," in "Conciousness Explained."Count Timothy von Icarus

    I don't know that Dennett is an eliminativist, if so I think he is in the closet about it. I've always found him to be strangely diplomatic and "soft-selling" in expressing his views, it makes sense to me that he would disavow what you describe as "extreme". Maybe this partly explains his success, his books do seem to sell.
  • On delusions and the intuitional gap
    Something is intuitive, a noetic "first principle," if we cannot conceive of it being otherwise. 2+2 is intuitively 4. It is intuitive that a straight line cannot also be a curved line, that a triangle cannot have four sides, etc.Count Timothy von Icarus

    I didn't realize the bar was set so high, so then all it takes is for someone to claim that they can conceive of something being false, and it ceases to be intuitive? Presumeably the eliminativist has already done this, so are the claims they deny then dethroned? Or are they not included in this "we"?
  • On delusions and the intuitional gap
    But "things are only extension in space and motion," or "all that exists can be explained in terms of mathematics and computation," are not basic intuitions.Count Timothy von Icarus

    I'm not sure exactly how you make the distinction between "basic/core" and "regular" (historical popularity maybe?), but those ideas of space and motion are certainly products of intuition.

    It's obvious that if you frame something as "intuition vs X", then X will always lose. But the neuromaniac eliminativist perspective is also the product of intuition, intuition isn't a big happy family to be collectively dismissed or embraced.
  • On delusions and the intuitional gap
    If our core intuitions can be this wrong, and there is "nothing to explain," then I have no idea why we should be referring to neuroscience for explanations in the first place. We only have a good reason to think science tells us anything about the world if our basic intuitions have some sort of merit.Count Timothy von Icarus

    The problems of phenomenal consciousness are to begin with the result of tension between different intuitions. It's like you have a bunch of witnesses and their testimonies don't add up to a coherent story, one of them has to be wrong. It's no good saying "if you doubt one, you have to doubt them all, so let's just not".
  • Are all living things conscious?
    And I'd would say that at the very least, higher order animals certainly experience fear as they attack when cornered. That is "self preservation" and as the term would suggest it would seem to necessitate a "self" in which to defend. A certain expectation or demand to survive. An "I" that wishes to live on.Benj96

    In my opinion, your thinking here is the result of rationalizing (as opposed to explaining) animal behavior in comfortable terms. The mechanisms of fear and self-preservation in, um... "higher order animals" I believe can be explained without imparting ideas of "self" on them.

    I do not understand how you make the distinction, but do you not see patterns of self-preservation in what I suppose you would call "lower order" lifeforms?
  • Indirect Realism and Direct Realism
    MUI theory states that "perceptual experiences do not match or approximate properties of the objective world, but instead provide a simplified, species-specific, user interface to that world." Hoffman argues that conscious beings have not evolved to perceive the world as it actually is but have evolved to perceive the world in a way that maximizes "fitness payoffs".flannel jesus

    Conceptually at least, it seems we could not be further apart on the issue of perception. I believe we can only perceive the world as it is and argued as much in my thread about Illusionism:

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/14459/on-illusionism-what-is-an-illusion-exactly/p1

    Critical for me is the distinction between perception, which is pre-propositional, and interpretation, which is the generation of propositions.
  • Indirect Realism and Direct Realism


    Maybe not but it's helpful that you brought it up explicitly. Reading this thread I really felt like I was missing the point of what people were discussing.
  • Indirect Realism and Direct Realism
    The experience I call "blue", the qualia if you will, doesn't have to be assigned to the things I assign it to. The qualia you experience as blue, I could experience as green. My whole colour wheel could be rotated with respect to yours, and I would still have a fully in tact, self-consistent and useful sensory experience regardless.flannel jesus

    I am a functionalist about mental properties, so talking about "digust" or "experience" is fine but "qualia" is a good way to lose me completely. I don't believe there is a color wheel to rotate, that idea is a mistake.
  • Indirect Realism and Direct Realism


    This is more of a conceptual distinction, I think what you call an "experience" I would call a "reaction" that is distinct from the smell as such. The smell/sight/sound/whatever is just the sum of information picked up by a sensory organ. So if me and a fly pick up on the same information, it is the same smell, and our different reactions are irrelevant.
  • Indirect Realism and Direct Realism
    We can't both be experiencing smells "as they are" considering how viscerally different our experiences are.flannel jesus

    What would be the problem with just saying the fly, dog or human has a different reaction to the same smell?
  • Is philosophy just idle talk?
    For me philosophy is just an intrinsically compelling activity, I've never concerned myself with its "value" or "importance".
  • Indirect Realism and Direct Realism
    Ok, with this aside, let us define Direct Realism, the thesis that do indeed have direct access to the external world.

    Now let me propose a few arguments for Indirect Realism that I run. Note that all the names I'm giving these are non-standard.
    Ashriel

    Did you forget to write something in between these two paragraphs?

    Based on what you do write I'm not sure what position you're arguing against, surely no-one believes we can see anything without light, eyeballs and other "middle men"?
  • Deconstructing our intuitions of consciousness
    I would add that there are important ways in which consciousness is not an illusion. Emotional, experiential, rational, doxastic content, means something, points toward something true, is important.NotAristotle

    While we may agree in denouncing illusionism, we clearly have different reasons for doing so. Like I said earlier, there are two tenets to illusionism:

    A) Phenomenological consciousness appears to be real
    B) Phenomenological consciousness is not real

    I reject A while you reject B, that's the difference.
  • Deconstructing our intuitions of consciousness
    A lie is an illusion is it not? Well, what misleads more, the lie or the liar?NotAristotle

    No, a lie is not an illusion. Not everything that misleads is an illusion, anything can be misleading in theory, even the truth.

    Would you define the "consciousness" you say is not an illusion? (...) Maybe that is an unfair question because consciousness may be undefinable.NotAristotle

    I don't think it's undefinable, it's just a word that's used a bit inconsistently.

    Consciousness has a functional component, this is pretty much undisputed, it is the functionality that a person loses when someone whacks them over the head with a mallet and they faint. Obviously this is not an illusion.

    But it is also generally taken have a qualitative or phenomenological component. This is the "interesting" part as far as philosophy of mind is concerned, but I think one should keep in mind that it is not the only part.

    why defend consciousness as not an illusion; what's at stake? Why is consciousness not being an illusion important to you?NotAristotle

    I think illusionism is false and an obstacle to solving major problems in philosophy of mind. It's not like I have a strong emotional stake in the issue though.

    And the viewer of the illusion is the illusion itself. An illusion is fooled into thinking itself to be real. That's a heck of a magic trick!Patterner

    Like I've told you, I don't subscribe to illusionism, I'm not going to defend the position.
  • Deconstructing our intuitions of consciousness


    Leaving aside how negative or positive thinking affects our judgement, I would have to say your idea of an illusion seems too broad. Not everything that misleads us is an illusion, liars are not illusions for example.

    An illusion in my opinion is a kind of appearance. To say that "consciousness is an illusion" is to say that "there appears to be consciousness, but there actually isn't".
  • Deconstructing our intuitions of consciousness
    Negative thinking, patterns of thought, insofar as we identify these things with consciousness, it is easier to see how consciousness is an illusion; it is an illusion just as negative thinking and patterns of thought are an illusion, they are part of a script so to speak.NotAristotle

    I'd like to hear what your idea of an illusion is for you to conclude that "negative thinking" is illusory. Is positive thinking somehow more real than negative?
  • Are all living things conscious?
    if that's all there is to it, do you mean consciousness is functionality?Patterner

    That is how I use the word, yes.
  • Are all living things conscious?
    I'm thinking the "what it is like to be..." is due to subjective experience. Kind of the same thing. If I did not have subjective experience, there would be nothing it is like to be me.Patterner

    I am skeptical of phenomenal properties, so if it were up to me I would strip that out of the definition, thus "salvaging" the word.

    Do you think consciousness is subjective experience, but it doesn't lead to "what it is like to be..."? If not, if you don't think consciousness is subjective experience, and you don't think it is the concept of self, then what do you think consciousness is?Patterner

    Consciousness also has a functional component, when someone loses consciousnesses they also lose functionality. As far as I am concerned that is all there is to it.

    Apologies if you've told me this before.Patterner

    No worries, it was many months ago on my thread about illusionism.
  • Are all living things conscious?
    I agree. I like Nagel’s definition in What is it like to be a bat?Patterner

    I think we've talked about this already, but I don't like that definition at all. Bundling phenomenological properties into the definition kills the word for me.

    I assume you mean taught while interacting with others, which i agree with. I doubt someone raised without the slightest human contact, or interaction from whatever machines kept it alive, would develop a sense of self. Perhaps hearing ideas from outside our own heads is key to noticing self. The idea that there is no self without other.Patterner

    Yeah pretty much, having a pet dog might be enough even. I think the usefulness of the concept comes from drawing conclusions about others from observing yourself.

    I also don't think having a concept of self is such a special thing, computers have it is as well ("This PC").

    A rock is moved only by external forces. But a living organism is self-moving and self-sustaining to various degrees.Gnomon

    What about a roomba? They need to crawl back to their recharge station occasionally to sustain themselves.
  • Deconstructing our intuitions of consciousness
    You're asking the wrong person because I have the same question; I don't think consciousness is an illusion.NotAristotle

    I know, but it seems that from your perspective denial of the reality of consciousness leads to illusionism. Did I at least get that right?
  • Deconstructing our intuitions of consciousness
    I'm not sure I understand the question; I guess I take it as given that an illusion is necessarily differentiable from non-illusion .NotAristotle

    I agree, but how would you differentiate them in this case? What specifically did evolution do to trick you into believing you are conscious?
  • Deconstructing our intuitions of consciousness
    And, if consciousness really is an illusion, why the illusion? Wouldn't we be better equipped evolutionarily speaking to see the truth; reality as it really is.NotAristotle

    But how would that "truthful image" even be distinguishable from one that involves the so-called illusion?
  • Are all living things conscious?
    Being conscious and having a concept of selfhood is very different, I'd say many or most animals have consciousness, I mean it makes sense to say "the dog was knocked unconscious", right?

    A concept of self is much more rare and specific, human babies clearly don't have it in my opinion, I would even say it's more of an idea that we are taught as opposed to an inborn attribute.
  • A Case for Moral Realism
    Take an example by analogy: Imagine I gave you a bucket of colored blocks and asked you separate them into piles by color. You pick up a red one, put it in the red pile; blue, in the blue pile; etc.Bob Ross

    The difference is, these categories do not inform me about color. I already have that understanding from some other source, in other words I already have a formula.

    But imagine if you gave to this task to someone who has no understanding of what red or blue even meant, and you tell them "red means it belongs in the red pile, blue means means it belongs in the blue pile." The person would have no clue what to do, the categories do not help at all.