we cannot imagine that her life has value. — ENOAH

I have never said that. I have never even thought that. What I said is that it would be very difficult for them to live if they lacked the capacity to see, hear, taste, touch and smell from the womb to adulthood.

I think the life of all living things has value. I became a vegan 18 years ago because I didn't want to cause suffering and death to sentient organisms.

I agree.

I am glad no such person actually exists. It would be very hard for them to live.

I think there are unconscious dynamics involved in thought. — Nemo2124

Thoughts occur in the brain through a complex interaction of neurons and their networks, involving various brain regions, neurotransmitters, and biological processes. The exact mechanisms are still a subject of ongoing research and debate, but here’s a general overview of how thoughts are believed to be generated:

1. Neural Activity
Thought processes are primarily associated with the activity of neurons, the brain's nerve cells. Neurons communicate with each other through electrical impulses and chemical signals (neurotransmitters). Each neuron connects to thousands of other neurons, forming extensive networks that are the basis for all brain functions, including thinking.

2. Brain Regions Involved
Prefrontal Cortex: This front part of the brain is highly involved in complex cognitive behavior, personality expression, decision making, and moderating social behavior. It plays a critical role in planning complex cognitive behavior and in the expression of thoughts.
Temporal Lobes: These areas of the brain are involved in processing sensory input and are important for understanding language, forming memories, and connecting emotions and senses.
Parietal Lobes: These help in processing sensory information and are key to spatial orientation and navigation, which are important for abstract thinking and reasoning.
Occipital Lobes: Primarily associated with visual processing, these areas are also linked with visual aspects of thought, like imagining or recalling images.
Cerebellum and Basal Ganglia: These structures contribute to coordination and smoothing of thought processes, akin to their roles in smoothing and coordinating motor activity.
3. Role of Neurotransmitters
Neurotransmitters are chemicals in the brain that transmit signals from one neuron to another. Different neurotransmitters are associated with different aspects of thought:

Dopamine: Often linked with motivation and reward feelings, influencing focus and attention.
Serotonin: Plays roles in mood regulation, which can affect the overall tone and quality of thoughts.
Acetylcholine: Important for attention and arousal, influencing learning and short-term memory.
Glutamate and GABA: Primary excitatory and inhibitory neurotransmitters in the brain, crucial for balancing activation and relaxation necessary for smooth thought processes.
4. Cognitive Processes
Thinking involves several cognitive processes, including perception, memory, language understanding, and problem-solving. Thoughts can be triggered by external sensory stimuli or internal cues such as emotions or memories. The integration of information from these various sources allows for the formation of thoughts.

5. Formation and Flow of Thoughts
Thoughts can arise from conscious attention or unconscious processes. The brain continuously processes sensory information and internal states even without conscious focus, contributing to spontaneous or background thought generation.
Thoughts are not isolated but are part of a continuous stream of consciousness, influenced by past experiences, knowledge, current goals, and future anticipations.
6. Neuroplasticity
The brain's ability to reorganize itself by forming new neural connections throughout life, known as neuroplasticity, allows for the continuous development and refinement of thought patterns. Learning and experience lead to changes in these connections, affecting how thoughts are generated and processed.

In summary, thoughts are the result of highly complex and dynamic interactions within the brain's neural networks. They are influenced by various factors, including biological, environmental, and experiential elements. The ongoing research in neuroscience continues to unravel the intricacies of how thoughts are formed and manifest in the brain. — ChatGPT 4

I agree with ChatGPT 4.

I know that the Artificial Intelligence we currently have e.g. Chat GPT 4 are not and don't claim to be conscious. I am talking about Artificial General Intelligence and Artificial Super Intelligence that may exist in the future which may become conscious. How would we tell if they are truly conscious given the fact that we can't truly know if another human is actually conscious or is actually a philosophical zombie?

Thank you. The key problem with AI is how would we know if the AI is conscious given the fact that we can't tell which human is conscious and which human is a philosophical zombie - if any.

As they won't be able to learn any language, we are not going to know what kind of thoughts or values the hypothetical baby will develop - if any. If they make up their own unique language, we won't be able to translate it. We can try to infer emotions based on facial expressions and body language but I don't know if that would be accurate. We can try to infer values based on actions but again I don't know if that would be accurate.

I agree.

I imagine the hallucination would involve proprioception. I don't know. I am spitballing here.

We can imagine what it may be like for a newborn baby without any sensory perceptions. Even if he or she does not have any capacity to see, hear, smell, touch and taste he or she could still have proprioception. It's possible that his or her brain would hallucinate to fill the sensory gap.

I didn't say we can eliminate the idea of simulation. We could be aliens experiencing a simulation of what it is like to be a human on Earth. Death could be the exit from this simulation.

Looks like I didn't understand him.

I was speaking about myself - not about a foetus. If I suddenly became unable to touch, smell, hear, taste and see I would still be able to think and have emotions and have a personality and have values. I don't know if the same is true for a foetus and a newborn baby that is unable to touch, smell, hear, taste and see.

I don't know. I have never met a human without the capacity to touch, smell, hear, taste and see. If a zygote was so defective that the foetus did not have any capacity to touch, smell, hear, taste and see and after birth, the baby continued to be like this we could study how such a baby grows and develops. As far as I know, such a baby has never been born. I could speculate what it may be like for such a baby to grow into an adult but that would be pure speculation - not facts.

How do you know this? Do you have any research that you can cite as evidence?

Thanks for the welcome. The true nature of the self, to keep it brief, is the being that exists in the mind prior to any sense perception. In other words, there is no self without sense perception of the world.

You are most welcome. Why would there be no self without sensory perception of the world? If I am unable to touch, smell, hear, taste and see would my sense of self disappear? I doubt it. I would still be able to think and have emotions and have a personality and have values.

Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTNvcy5LZPo where Elon Musk explains why he thinks we are living in a simulation. I don't agree with him.

Thank you very much for answering my questions and the link. I learned something new which is great.

I far as I can tell, neither quantum mechanics nor macroscopic determinism makes us free from determinants and constraints. How can we have justice when we are not free from determinants and constraints? If a criminal could not have refrained from breaking the law, is it right to punish him or her for breaking the law? If a law-abiding person cannot help being law-abiding, is it right to reward him or her for not breaking the law? Could anyone really have made a different choice in the past than the choice they made? I don't think so. I think our choices arise out of the interactions of our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences and we are not truly praiseworthy or blameworthy.

Quoting ChatGPT 4:

Monozygotic twins, often called identical twins, originate from the same fertilized egg that splits into two embryos. This shared origin means that they start with the same genetic material. However, saying they are completely genetically identical throughout their lives is an oversimplification due to several factors:

1. Mutations During Development
As the cells of the embryos divide and grow, small mutations can occur. These mutations might be different between the two twins, leading to slight genetic differences as they develop.

2. Epigenetic Differences
While the DNA sequence itself may be very similar, the way this genetic information is expressed can differ due to epigenetic changes. Epigenetics involves modifications that affect gene expression without altering the DNA sequence itself. Factors such as environment, lifestyle, and different experiences can lead to epigenetic changes that differ between the twins, influencing how their genes are expressed.

3. Somatic Mosaicism
Somatic mosaicism refers to the occurrence of two or more genetically different cell lines within the same individual, caused by mutations that occur after fertilization and during cell division. This can also happen independently in each twin, leading to differences between them.

4. Copy Number Variations
Small differences in the number of copies of certain genes can emerge during the early stages of embryonic development after the initial zygotic split. These variations can lead to further genetic divergence between monozygotic twins.

5. Environmental Influences
Even in the womb, monozygotic twins can experience different environments. For example, they might have different positions in the uterus or slightly different nourishment from the placenta. These subtle environmental differences can influence their development, both physically and potentially at the genetic expression level.

While monozygotic twins are genetically very similar compared to other siblings, they are not absolutely identical. The small genetic differences that can arise are typically not significant enough to affect the fact that they are more similar to each other than to anyone else, but these differences can be important in the context of medical research, forensic analysis, and understanding how genes and the environment interact to shape individuals.

I am both a pragmatist and an empiricist. They are not mutually exclusive.

I am a pragmatist - no point wasting time on untestable ideas.

Yes, indeed.

We create simulated worlds e.g. in weather simulations and computer games. People have dreams and hallucinations. Visual illusions are also common. Elon Musk thinks that our perceived world is a simulation created by our descendants. I wish we knew more.

It's ok. Please don't worry about it.

can it do that WITHOUT said sentient beings awareness of such observations occurring meaning avoiding any conscious awareness such attempts to remove determinants and constraints are taking place...observations when sentient beings are aware of them happening, risk unnatural behavior taking place misplaced real data when its bias was just aware and leaning in its favor. The sentient beings level of conscious awareness holds power over attempts, even if they know it or not. Its intuit.

I don't understand what you are saying. Sorry. Please explain. Thank you.

Thank you.

The problem is that we don't have a Theory of Everything that unites the quantum world with the macroscopic world. We know that quantum decoherence occurs. Given the fact that quantum decoherence occurs, how would quantum phenomena such as superposition, indeterminacy and entanglement have any effect on the macroscopic world?

How can quantum randomness remove determinants and constraints from the decision-making process in sentient organisms? You haven't answered any of my questions in my previous reply to you. Is that because you don't know the answers?

Would you agree that the effects of genes, environments, nutrients and experiences can theoretically (not practically) all be reduced to physical phenomena? As in: Changing X gene does, deterministically, result in changes A, B and C. And placying someone in Y environment will, determinisitically, result in changes in D, F and G. And A, B, C, D, F, G are all physical phenomena (think: bigger nose, different neural connections, etc)

I will assume yes.

It depends. If immaterial souls exist, and they are affected by genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences then the answer is no.

Do you agree that quantum randomness CAN under certain setups, cause macro level changes? (see cat)

I will also assume yes.

I have never seen your thought experiment as an actual experiment. If you are a physicist, could you please do the experiment and share the actual results with us?

Ah, how are you sure of this? How are you sure that none of the setups where quantum randomness can have a macro effect (like with the cat) don't already exist in some environments or within our own bodies?

I am 100% sure that quantum decoherence occurs, but we don't know if quantum mechanics is involved in the production of consciousness. Quantum features such as superposition, tunneling, entanglement, and indeterminacy all average out - there is indeterminacy about the exact location of any given iron atom but not about the exact location of the centre of mass of a cannonball formed by 10^27 of these quantum-behaving atoms. If it is involved then quantum mechanics could affect our choices which would make our choices random instead of deterministic. How can we be culpable if our choices are random instead of deterministic?

This is a testable hypothesis, but until we know the effects of genes, environments, nutrients and experiences on organisms fully, it will not have been tested. Until we fully understand our body and our world, it's still a possibility that such a quantum-randomness enabling setup already exists within us or our environment.

I agree.

Yes, but it is not clear that it would ever be 100% accurate. The only way it can be is if there is no setups that allow quantum randomness to have a macro effect anywhere. And we don't know that.

I am not a physicist, otherwise I would turn your thought experiment into an actual experiment. Is there any physicist on this forum?

I don't see how quantum randomness is any better than macroscopic determinism when it comes to making decisions. I want to remove all determinants and constraints from our choices but it's impossible for me to do that with our current level of knowledge and technology. It may always be impossible to do. So, we are and always will be prisoners of determinants and constraints

Are you talking about the untestable hypothesis that our perceived world could be a simulation or hallucination or dream or illusion? Then they are untestable ideas. If we could test them then the results would be in the "matter of facts" but we can't test them.

We don't know anything objectively. We may believe that we do but this is a delusion. Everything we know is subjective. There are two kinds of subjective truths:

1. Exclusive subjective truths e.g. your thoughts, your dreams, your hallucinations, your pain, your pleasure, etc. Only you have access to them.

2. Shared subjective truths e.g. things two or more sentient beings can experience e.g. standing on the planet Earth, looking at the stars, eating at a restaurant, flying in a plane, etc.

I agree with you partially. I know that my body has two legs, two hands, two eyes, one nose with two nostrils, two ears, etc. There may be a one-in-infinity chance that my body and the universe are not real but are part of a simulation or a hallucination or a dream or an illusion. However, my consciousness is real. There is no doubt in my mind that my consciousness is real. I am conscious, therefore I am. I can't prove to you or anyone else that my consciousness is real. You may call me a philosophical zombie and I won't be able to prove to you that I am not a philosophical zombie. Conversely, your consciousness is real for you but you can't prove to me or anyone else that you are not a philosophical zombie.

Welcome to the forum. How would we discern whether or not an AI was conscious? We can't even discern which human is actually conscious and which human is a philosophical zombie, that's if philosophical zombies are real.

In the unlikely event that I am an immaterial soul experiencing the illusion of being in a physical body on a physical planet in a physical universe, my illusory body has two illusory eyes.

Yes, I understand what you mean by proving X means disproving not-X. Even in the unlikely event that my body and the universe are simulated, I still have two eyes. They may be real eyes or simulated eyes but they do the same job.

Just because we can't predict something e.g. weather and earthquakes, etc. accurately it does not mean that they are not deterministic.

I agree that the quantum world is probabilistic but due to quantum decoherence, this does not mean the macroscopic world is like the quantum world.

If you had my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences would you not be typing these words when and where I am typing these words? If I had your genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences would I not be reading these words when and where you are reading these words?

We don't choose to be born. We don't choose our genes. We don't choose our early environments, nutrients, and experiences. Although, as an adult we may be able to change our environments, nutrients, and experiences to something different from what we got as a child. This does not apply to all adults - just the fortunate ones. So, how can we claim that we are culpable for our choices?

I do some things even though I don't want to do them. Here are some things I have done, currently do or will do even though I don't want to do them:

1. Breathe
2. Eat
3. Drink
4. Sleep
5. Dream
7. Pee
8. Poo
9. Fart
10. Burp
11. Sneeze
12. Cough
13. Age
14. Get ill
15. Get injured
16. Sweat
17. Cry
18. Suffer
19. Snore
20. Think
21. Feel
22. Choose
23. Be conceived
24. Be born
25. Remember some events that I don't want to remember
26. Forget information that I want to remember
27. Die

I can't do the following things even though I really want to do them:

1. Live forever without consuming any oxygen, fluids, or food.
2. Do things other organisms e.g. tardigrades, dolphins, chameleons, etc. can do.
3. Teleport everywhere and everywhen.
4. Prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths.
5. Make all living things (including the dead ones and the never-born ones) forever happy.
6. Be all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful and make all the other beings also all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful.
7. Own an infinite number of universes and give all beings an infinite number of universes each for free.

Given the fact that I am constantly doing things I don't want to do and can't do what I actually want to do, how can I be a free agent who makes free choices and is culpable?

I think that only omniscient and omnipotent beings are omniculpable. Everyone else is a prisoner of causality. Our thoughts are not free from the electrochemical activities that give rise to thoughts. Our choices are not free from the electrochemical activities that give rise to choices.

I agree with you. How would we figure out if hard determinism is true or not?

Our choices are not free from determinants and constraints e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Does that mean that our choices are inevitable?

The list does not deal with simulation/hallucination/dream/illusion hypotheses as they can't be tested. Also, it is impossible to prove the non-existence of something e.g. unicorns, fairies, angels, demons, gods, etc.

So, the statements below are still provable by using evidence.

1. If I hit the wall with my head it hurts my head.
2. Humans need oxygen to stay alive.
3. Eating a banana means you no longer have the banana to sell or donate or eat again.
4. I am typing in English right now.
5. I have two eyes.
6. The capital of Nepal is currently Kathmandu.
7. The Earth orbits the Sun.
8. The Moon orbits the Earth.
9. Humans don't know how to travel faster than the speed of light.
10. Dogs have four legs.

Most people don't take the simulation/hallucination/dream/illusion hypothesis seriously. Just as most people don't take the solipsism hypothesis seriously. It is extremely unlikely that the world we perceive is a simulation/hallucination/dream/illusion given how complex everything is. This is why even I don't take them seriously. Although, Elon Musk seems to think that it is more likely that we live in a simulation than not!

It appears that I have a material body. It appears that we live in a material universe. If it were an illusion, we would expect it to appear as if it is real. We can't test the hypothesis. That is my point.

When I say that I can prove trillions of things I mean things like:

1. If I hit the wall with my head it hurts my head.
2. Humans need oxygen to stay alive.
3. Eating a banana means you no longer have the banana to sell or donate or eat again.
4. I am typing in English right now.
5. I have two eyes.
6. The capital of Nepal is currently Kathmandu.
7. The Earth orbits the Sun.
8. The Moon orbits the Earth.
9. Humans don't know how to travel faster than the speed of light.
10. Dogs have four legs.

I don't have the time to list trillions of such things but I think you get the picture.

The untestable hypotheses I listed remain untestable.

Science-fiction is fun.

It's not possible to test that hypothesis. Haven't you read my other posts?

Quoting myself:

There are many hypotheses that can't be tested e.g. simulation hypothesis, illusion hypothesis, dream hypothesis, hallucination hypothesis, solipsism hypothesis, philosophical zombie hypothesis, panpsychism hypothesis, deism hypothesis, theism hypothesis, pantheism hypothesis, panentheism hypothesis, etc. Just because a hypothesis can't be tested it does not mean it is true or false. It just means that it is currently untestable.