I find in most or all of the discussions about religion that while willing to go into an issue, the is a general lack of interest to ask the basic questions that would lead to an understanding of what religion IS, that is, what there is in the world that warrants interest in the first place. — Constance
Personally when it comes to my dog that I’ve bonded with if I was forced into this choice of eating the animal to survive I doubt I would do it. I’d rather die than cling on to life at such primitive existence. — Deus
"Good" is clearly defined by a larger context than the social context. This is evident in principles which relate to respect for other life forms which do not partake in human society, and respect for the planet in general with issues like climate change. "Good" truly transcends the context of human society, because human beings are only a small part of life on earth, and we're all integrated. — Metaphysician Undercover
There is, however, a lingering question, which is what is there, then, about animals that make them included in concerns about the Good? — Astrophel
Are you saying the brain is part of the body and the mind is not? If so, where does the mind reside? What thinks? — Vera Mont
You will return to who you were before you were born, bare consciousness. This consciousness is present behind even rocks and trees — Sirius
How do you know that there is no consciousness after brain death?
— Truth Seeker
Isn't that a self-answering question? Brain>consciousness. Dead brain>no consciousness. — Vera Mont
People tell all kinds of stories about things they saw and experienced while other people thought they were dead. My guess is that they were not dead, but hallucinating or dreaming - possibly during the seconds they were regaining consciousness. My reason for that guess is the number of times I've been unconscious due to anesthetic during which I experienced nothing and from which I recall nothing, until I was coming back to awareness. Some of my vivid and bizarre dreams take place just as I'm waking up. These are the dreams one is most likely to remember. — Vera Mont
Have some angel cake tonight, you'll be alright — flannel jesus
I hope so too brother. — flannel jesus
Ok. Well I hope you can find out one way or another if you are. — flannel jesus
He never wrote anything about that, so I have no idea how he feels about that idea. I think the "I" in "I think therefore I am" is a lot more amorphous than that, it's not referencing any thing in particular. He's not confirming he's a human, or a mammal, or has a brain - he's only confirming 2 things, the existence of his thoughts, and his own existence. — flannel jesus
I'm not sure how much demons have to do with his thought process for the cogito anyway. Seems unrelated to me. — flannel jesus
of he's an evil demon, then he IS — flannel jesus
He was applying skepticism as deeply as he could. — flannel jesus
If you allow the "I" to take a more amorphous form, "I think therefore I am" could be interpreted more like "there is thought, therefore there is something" - and the word "I" fits in there not as a silly defined ego but just as the experiential reason for why the thinker knows "there is thought".
You, whatever "you" might refer to, knows there is thought because you're experiencing thoughts. — flannel jesus
I don't NEED to be 100% certain of cogito. I would be content being 99.99...% certain of cogito (or less, if there was a reason to be less) — flannel jesus
Yes, I am bowing out from this thread after this message. I was going to do that about 10 pages ago. But I was getting frustrated to see the continuing confusions and groundless claims. It seems it better not to waste any more time, if the confusions going to continue, then let them get on with it. I don't see their views ever changing with no matter what rational explanations were given judging by their continuous circulatory posts.
Will get on with some other topics and readings. Thanks for your input on the point. :pray: :up: — Corvus
So would you mind trying to establish with me if its generally true to say "if P-> Q, then Not P -> Not Q must hold."? I would love to have this basic logic established, as it has so far been a fundamental part of Corvus reasoning to this point. — flannel jesus
He based his logic on the premise that you can jump from "p implies q" to "not p implies not q" in general. You can see him present the argument here. — flannel jesus
Moreover, it is a circular statement. How the hell does he know that he exists? He was supposed to doubt everything. — Corvus
Do you believe you can jump from "p implies q" to "not p implies not q" in general? — flannel jesus
I think what he is trying to show here is that we cannot successfully use logic on the cogito in a way that it makes sense. From this, we can conclude that there is something wrong with the cogito. For example, it would obviously make no sense to say, "I do not exist, therefore I am not thinking" because you cannot be thinking about not thinking unless you exist. Or, you cannot say 'I do not exist' if you do not exist. Now, you may reply, "Oh, that was Descartes's exact point: if you are thinking, then you must exist." However, since 'I do not exist, therefore I am not thinking" DOES NOT make sense, then logically, the cogito also does not make sense. As has been pointed out many times, the 'I' is not logical here. To make it logical at a stretch (whilst having to make assumptions) we would have to change it to: 'He thinks therefore he exists.' Then, we can more logically say: 'He does not exist, therefore he is not thinking.' But, as I am sure we are all aware, the cogito ONLY works from the first person perspective. Therefore, it fails; it all fails — Beverley
If this persons truth-discovering tools like reason and logic are compromised in such a way, how could this person *discover the truth* that his truth-discovering (or filtering instead of discovering, if you prefer) tools are compromised and unrelaible? — flannel jesus
And then, suppose he does come to understand that he's bad at reasoning - what then? If he still cares about the truth, but he has come to accept that his tools for discovering or filtering truths are compromised, what should he do? — flannel jesus
The inference is invalid. logic does not show that if 'I think therefore I am' is true, then 'I do not think, therefore I do not exist' must also be true. — Banno
I just wanted to check, is your argument here that if 'I think therefore I am' is true, then logic dictates that 'I do not think, therefore I do not exist' must also be true. But since the latter makes no sense, then something is terribly wrong with it all?? Or am I totally wrong to assume that? I could have misunderstood. — Beverley
Yes, correct. You have got it spot on. — Corvus
That is a completely different objection than your "how do you know?" to something that is self-evident — Russell's objection being, by the way, mostly semantic. — Lionino
When he goes on to say “I am a thing which thinks,” he is already using uncritically the apparatus of categories handed down by scholasticism. He nowhere proves that thoughts need a thinker,nor is there reason to believe this except in a grammatical sense. — Russell, Bertrand. 1945. A History of Western Philosophy And Its Connection with Political and Social Circumstances from the Earliest Times to the Present Day. New York: Simon and Schuster, p. 567.
His central argument in this thread has been, if "I think therefore I am" is true, then it must also be true that not thinking implies not existing. — flannel jesus
You too, seems not knowing the difference between validity and truth. Something is valid doesn't mean it is also true.
— Corvus
What a clown. Goodbye.
— Lionino
Suppose this is a typical response when the hidden ignorance was revealed. :nerd: — Corvus
Nothing can think if it doesn't exist. — Lionino
Descartes’s indubitable facts are his own thoughts—using “thought” in the widest possible sense. “I think” is his ultimate premiss. Here the word “I” is really illegitimate; he ought to state his ultimate premiss in the form “there are thoughts.” The word “I” is grammatically convenient, but does not describe a datum. When he goes on to say “I am a thing which thinks,” he is already using uncritically the apparatus of categories handed down by scholasticism. He nowhere proves that thoughts need a thinker, nor is there reason to believe this except in a grammatical sense. — Russell, Bertrand. 1945. A History of Western Philosophy And Its Connection with Political and Social Circumstances from the Earliest Times to the Present Day. New York: Simon and Schuster, p. 567.
They don't own much, do share their scarce material resources, don't make war unless they're attacked, know far too much about the inhospitable land on which they subsist, and are too willing to share that knowledge. Savages! — Vera Mont
Vivisection was a very common form of experimentation and demonstration in medical colleges of the time - and in various forms, up to the present. Whether Descates himself conducted any such lectures using dogs has been the subject of debate, but he was a practicing physician, so he must have at least attended those lectures. He certainly didn't invent or initiate them, but he was famous, and his apologetics did help to legitimize vivisection as sound scientific practice.
Descartes famously thought that animals were merely ‘mechanisms’ or ‘automata’ – basically, complex physical machines without experiences – and that as a result, they were the same type of thing as less complex machines like cuckoo clocks or watches. He believed this because he thought that thoughts and minds are properties of an immaterial soul; thus, humans have subjective experience only because they have immaterial souls inhering in their physical bodies. However animals, reasoned Descartes, show no signs of being inhabited by rational souls: they don’t speak or philosophise, and so (as far as we can tell) they lack souls, and minds.
He bent some little way to accord animals sensation and emotion, but still considered it legitimate for humans to use them like objects. — Vera Mont
San tribes today, yes, they are not civilised by any metric. — Lionino
One of the marking characteristics of a society evolving into a civilisation is the specialisation of the workforce, aka roles/jobs. It is only in tribal settings (non-civilised societies) where everybody does a little bit of this and a little bit of that. — Lionino
I point-blank quoted several instances where this was not the case. — AmadeusD
I think any religion loses merit of it is not allowed to be practiced by choice and free will, but by fear and coercion.
After all if you cannot choose to identify with a group, but are instead forced to, how can one be said to have faith in it? To actively believe it despite the option not to. — Benj96
According to Islam, leaving Islam is punishable by the death penalty. Most Muslims think this is morally right. Ex-Muslims and non-Muslims think this is morally wrong. Which group is correct? How can we know for sure? — Truth Seeker
Scrupulosity is a somewhat relevant mental health issue. — wonderer1
In cases of psychopathy I don't get the impression that there is any conscience there to suppress — wonderer1
For example, fasting during Ramadan is considered mandatory by Muslims but non-Muslims think fasting during Ramadan is not necessary. — Truth Seeker
The problem with having a conscience is not that it exists but that different people have different values — Truth Seeker
I recommend that you read the following books:
"Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst" and "Determined: Life Without Free Will" by Robert M Sapolsky
"Free Will" by Sam Harris — Truth Seeker