laws should indeed be moral — javra

Yes of course. To promote good and prevent or redress badness. But we look to the government to tell us what the law is, not what morality is.

good to hear that the white middle class males — Banno

Wait, should “good to hear” and “white middle class males” even be allowed in the same sentence? Sounds like a hate-filled dog-whistle. :joke: Do we need a law to ban such obviously hateful juxtapositions in our thinking?

Or should no law abridge free speech?

liberal bias has been evident, but it has been only a bias as typically any administration gets some roasting from the political comedians. — ssu

“Some” roasting? Demonstrably, stupendously false. Biden wasn’t roasted until the democrats rammed Kamala Harris down everyone’s throats. Liberals are shocked to hear right wing ideas because they hear them so infrequently in the media. Main stream media is normally a safe space. Like the university classroom.

To a liberal, a simple right wing idea is hate speech. “Deport illegal immigrants.” That’s hate. Even though it was the policy of Obama and Biden. Trump’s somehow just different.

Ridiculous. Inconsistent. Incoherent.

The truth of the deep leftward bias of all legacy and main stream media (ABC, NBC, CBS, NYT, LA Times, Wash. Post, CNN, all things Hollywood) is the fulcrum behind Trump’s continued success and appeal - since 2016.

Libs refuse to see it. It’s a total blind spot. It’s why dems will continue losing outside of the areas where Al of their sheep flock.

The current legacy news media death rattle is due to their own inability to self-reflect honestly. They pander to half of the population. They are so biased. The right remains a sleeping underground of our culture. Even with Trump in office. It’s been stomped underground by the media for 30 plus years.

It’s still hateful to be republican. At least according to the media. And to expert libs.

And libs are so scared because of all the media bogeymen - instead of just talking to a right winger, like Kirk. Instead of talking to him, people are happy to celebrate his death.

The democrats have lost on substance with regard to immigration and the border, the economy, foreign policy, Ukraine, patriotism. The dems have no policies that address anything that matters to the country. And they are (currently, probably temporarily) losing the tactical advantage of being able to rely on the media to uncritically telegraph and parrot their agenda. It’s not because the media is moving right, but because the media is losing credibility. It’s because Jimmy Kimmel squandered his position. The media doesn’t know how to be fair about anything - they aren’t used to it. If they wanted to be fair they would have to fire half of their people, because everyone is a progressive. Absolute echo chamber.

Before Colbert and Kimmel (who aren’t making very much money, which affects the answer to the question: “are they worth all the grief?”), Roseanne Barr, was fired for saying some ignorant crap about the Obama administration and for sounding like a racist. Who gave a shit about democracy then? Who celebrated then? Was that so different? Was it any different? It was even ABC.

happy to occasionally be offended. — Banno

Offense is so done as a motivator for political action.

“Hate speech” is a joke, right? It’s not a law in the US because we all love to spew hate speech, right? From all sides. We love to offend. Almost as much as we cherish taking offense.

Offense is like pure gold for the left. No one ever cares how anyone else feels, but here is how I feel, and the more offended I am, the more interesting my instagram account will be.

Like adolescents. “You just don’t understand how much it hurts me….” And “this time it’s different.”

It’s no different. If Trump is limiting free speech, that is gravely bad. But what is so new to you libs? You who didn’t care about Biden’s Orwellian “Disinformation Governance Board”?

Government should stay out of all of it. Media should consistently and fairly report the facts. But they never did. Because libs give the government too much power, too many passes, and do not hold the media accountable at all.

Total irresponsibility.

so he shouldn't be allowed to make further comment...? — Banno

Kimmel hasn’t been arrested and thrown in jail. He was fired for being a highly paid ABC employee and talking shit too many times to too many members of ABC’s audience. He is going to make a ton of further comment. He is going to make a ton of money. He is an absolute rock star for the left now. Unless he begs for his job back. Because he is free to do that too.

If you are worried that the people are not being “allowed” to comment, were you concerned about speech when Kirk was shot? Oh that’s right, you reminded everyone Kirk supported the freedom to own guns.

Are you saying everyone needs to own a microphone and have a TV show?

Or should Twitter not be allowed to suspend Donald Trump’s twitter account? Are you saying that?

Zero coherence. Zero rigor in the analysis.

Shooting Kirk is just bad. For all of us. For all politics. For all cultures. It’s an easy topic. The left won’t look directly at the world they have created.

I don’t know what you are getting at.

We don’t need laws telling us what is good or bad. We need discussions and communities deciding what is good and bad. Then we need to agree on laws that support the good and laws that protect against the bad. But I don’t need a law telling me that “murder is bad”, or a law telling me that “cohort B are subhumans” is punishable hate speech and not just some stupid opinion.

I have no problem hearing out someone else’s stupid arguments and opinions. In fact, I want to protect that as a right.

Of itself it is only speech. And, as with a good portion of speech in general, it intends to influence the mindsets of others. — javra

So what? The fact that speech can influence others and lead to laws is how all good things happen too.

Hate speech is dumb and is for dumb people that I can deal with myself and don’t need the government, but the notion of legally defined hate speech is Orwellian.

What's happening now is — frank

What is happening now is, the tyranny supported by the liberal media for 40 years is being challenged.

But this is no new threat to democracy. This is the same threat, built really since the 1960’s, except now it is being turned against the same media-progressive-agenda-complex that built this tyrannical climate.

Don’t get me wrong - To the extent Trump and the right wing media are using the same tyrannical methods against the liberal media and against progressive political debate, Trump is just as wrong. The FCC and Pam Bondi and Trump may be abusing power. Full stop.

But didn’t Jimmy Kimmel celebrate when Tucker Carlson was fired over bullshit, for instance?

Didn’t we all know Joe Biden was not fit for a second term? The media wasn’t sure until Jake Tapper wrote a book about it, well after the fact.

Any threats to democracy or undue media influence to speak of there?

Nothing new is happening today except who is feeling threatened and who is misusing government power.

It’s the same shit, different viscosity.

Government over-reach is a huge threat. Republicans have feared it all of my life and I’m 56. But now, because it is Trump, we have libs saying “threat to democracy” all of the time.

The problem is, we should have the same fear about Trump as we have about what any president can do, what the legislature can do, and what the judiciary should not be doing. But instead, the libs only fear these things when they disagree with who is on office because they are feeling the impact.

As a great example is misdiagnosing the problem of government over-reach and tyranny, the libs think giving power to someone like Mamdani is a good way to combat people like Trump, when Mamdani is running faster towards the same threatening cliff of too much governmental influence.

:up:

Defenders of the notion of “hate speech” are also the best defenders of notions like “gender is a social construct”.

Pick a lane.

If something so clear as gender is actually vague and socially constructed, then something so vague as “hate speech” should quickly be recognized as even more vague than gender, so why are we thinking we could define it at all; Or, if you can make “hate speech” a useful term for laws and policies, you should easily be able to at least define “male” and “female” with some measure of objectivity, at least enough for bathrooms and sporting event policies (those should be so simple to the genius who can define “hate speech”). But the defenders of defining “hate speech” laws/enforcement don’t do that.

Utterly incoherent.

Fine if you want to say you can’t define “woman”. But then, you better not define “hate speech” for purposes of making policy, because who should believe anything you say? “Woman” can’t possibly be harder to define than “hate”, or if it is, hate can’t possibly be easy enough to define that we can enforce laws about it.

No self awareness of the in consistencies.

———

If you try to really give the definition and essence of “hate speech” I think you’ll find that it adds nothing to a conversation about political policy.

Hate “speech”, in fact, should be protected by law, not made illegal. (Pam Bondi was wrong.)

Person A murders person B. That’s murder. We have a law against it. Finding hateful motives might help find the murderer, but once you find the murderer, who gives a crap what they hate? Deal with the murder under the law.

The only political issue we should ask about speech is, was it political speech, or was it some thing else? If it is political speech, we all need to protect it, and the government has to stay out of our way. Free political speech is essential to stopping tyranny from taking hold. But if your speech is conspiracy to murder, or inciting immanent violence, or fraud that leads to actual harm, then the government can and should be able to step in a regulate it.

That’s it. Is it speech, or is it some verbal component of some unlawful act.

“Here is the gun I want you to use to murder that guy.” That’s not just speech, and is instead conspiracy to murder. What is the act, and when can/should we regulate acts?

But if the act is giving an opinion on any topic, it’s political speech, and there should be absolutely no governmental limits whatsoever. There can be social limits and private limits, but no governmental limits.

So to be fair, if the FCC or Pam Bondi threatened ABC/Disney’s license in any tangible or specific way in order to silence Jimmy Kimmel, that is a huge problem. That’s tyranny. But if Jimmy Kimmel was privately fired because his private bosses wanted to fire him for their own private corporate policy reasons, that’s called life in the jungle of free people. That’s called the free market of ideas. That’s called living the dream in a free society.

It is the same freedom enjoyed by ABC that allows them give Jimmy a microphone as allows them to take it away from him.

So the problems of all of these people being fired for celebrating Kirk’s death have nothing to do with the issue of free speech. That is about private policy and private employment - not law enforcement, not the first amendment.

How hard is that to understand? Simple consistency, based on the first amendment. Firing Jimmy is as much a freedom protected by the first amendment as was Jimmy’s freedom to talk bullshit about Kirk’s murder.

(And to be fair, if the FCC really did threaten ABC and you don’t like that, where was all of the outrage when so many other governmental interventions in the media occurred? Does anyone think we can find much more threatening statements from many more liberal democratic lawmakers about Fox’s license, about Tucker Carlson’s job, about conservative AM radio? Do you think Pelosi, AOC, Biden (Disinformation Governance Board), and many, many others in progressive government had any opinions about silenced and de-platformed media on the right?)

Hate is a moral issue. Not a political one. We don’t need government playing church and choosing who is hateful and who isn’t for us. We need freedom, to fight (through debate and argument) amongst ourselves about what is hateful and who isn’t.

When a politician “spews hate” they typically do so in some substantive context. Like saying “Donald Trump is a racist pig and must be punched in the face and pulled out of office” - sounds like hate, but who cares about that? The question is “what did Donald do that requires we remove him from office?” We can talk about those things. But the hate behind the word “pig” - who really gives a shit? When I hear “that person is a pig” and I also hear “I have no substantive argument, just my feelings.”

———

“Trump sycophants take when licking their God-Emperors ass..”

Everyone is dug in. We are all so superior to those we disagree with. No one wants to actually debate, or just listen.

What amazes me is how precise and rigorous many of us are when it comes to using terms like “knowledge” or “certainty” or “being” or “becoming” or “essence” or “modal collapse” or “concept” versus “idea”…. And the result of this precision is often how impossible it is to say anything solid about any of them. Page after page, deconstructing the grounds and effects of saying anything. Uncovering all of metaphysical, epistemological and ontological questions and assumptions…

But then, many of these same people are so quickly willing to say we know what Charlie Kirk meant, and understand his use of some of those same words clearly enough to convict him as a deplorable, hateful, harm causing son of bitch.

As far as I can tell, Charlie Kirk talked. He said things. (Like we do here.) Someone else shot him. Kirk is dead now. The other guy is arrested.

Who cares about what Kirk said? Unless he expressly said “please shoot me”, it’s all irrelevant to a more important question.

What do you think about setting up a tent, inviting a bunch of people, grabbing a microphone to speak to them, offering a microphone to others so they can speak, and getting shot dead?

How does that sound?

The rest of the facts and opinions and debatable content and observations and analysis don’t matter. At least they shouldn’t matter at all first.

Aside from the personal crap for his poor wife and kids, and aside from the fact that none of us should judge anyone else so harshly, who cares if Kirk was a good guy or not?

We can banish him to hell or congratulate ourselves on having a better world without Kirk in it later - what about assassination of anyone, ever, in a tent, giving out hats and tee shirts? What about political debate fora? What about our own tent TPF?

Shouldn’t all of us bigmouths care about someone being killed for having a big mouth?

We can’t start this discussion without agreement about killing anyone in tent like that. If instead we start off with “killing people in tents like that is bad, but…” we skipped what is important about the topic.

Aren’t Kirk’s views on the 2nd amendment secondary to his embodiment (not his views) of the first amendment?

Is it bad that some guy is dead like that or not? He wasn’t even an elected official. He, literally, was all talk. And someone shot him.

The killing of Malcom X was equally as heinous an affront to humanity. No matter what Malcom thought about bullets, or what Charlie thought about guns. Who really gives a shit what either man thought or said at a moment like this - what the fuck kind of people entertain in any level assassination of private citizens because of things they say in a political debate forum?

How hard is that not to make bedrock among us - on a debate forum?!!!

The part that makes me wonder is how much violence we're already responsible for.

And that is pretty fucked up. — Moliere

Yeah, but “how much violence we are already responsible for” is also a diversion. More fog. This is an easy one if you have any principles at all.

Unless you really mean to ask: when should we be allowed to kill our political debate opponents?

Isn’t that the same as asking, when can we throw out the rules of any game we’ve all agreed to play for sake of some other new game? As if in such circumstances there is such a thing as a judge or ground to answer such question anymore.

We don’t get to bring a gun to a debate and have a debate. No one should celebrate what happened on any level. Charlie was as precious and loved as Malcom, and so many others.

We should be convicting ourselves - instead we build grounds for the next bullet.

———

What logical fallacy is involved here:
- p1: supporting private gun ownership
- p2: saying and recognizing that this will create a platform where private people can wrongfully kill each other
-p3: getting shot dead
Therefore: he asked for it and got what he wanted, or can’t complain.

Count pointed out how this is a stupid argument.
It’s like a trans man supporting DEI even if hiring that Asian woman means that Trans man won’t be hired - we don’t have to conclude the trans man asked not to be hired.

Yet I think our resident rigorously genius Banno basically made this argument.

You guys are willing to post page after page showing how we can’t know anything for certain, but ahhh, fuck Charlie, he was a dick about trans people, he said Jesus way too much, and wouldn’t shut up. So he’s dead, let’s move on and talk about Israel, and Trump clearly inciting an insurrection…

Weak. We must do better.

Kirk’s murder was bad all around for everyone.

Folk seem to think that if, if we know something then it is true, then we can never be mistaken.

Think on it a bit.

If we think we know something and it turns out to be false, then we didn't know it. — Banno

That seems accurate. But so does this:

[it is false that] J, T, and B are three separate and reliably verifiable properties of every knowledge-claim. This is also false, as is the sub-idea that the three properties are supposed to be separable: as if we could have knowledge of each of them separate from the others.

JTB is a tripartite schema, which means that the three components are not separable vis-a-vis knowledge. — Leontiskos

I agree with Leon, but then, because of the possibility of error, what is happening when we think we know something but we do not? Wouldn’t we have to be able to separate J, T or B from the others to think we know something when in fact what we know is missing J, T or B? Or are all three destroyed, along with K, when we are in error?

you're free to argue that whites are being oppressed and that women aren't. — praxis

Maybe, but I asked if it was woke to argue these things?

My point is that it might be procedurally woke to argue power, equity, identity. But it’s not substantively woke to argue whites are being oppressed and women aren’t.

Do you agree with that at least?

the impact of woke is to silence the centre. T — Jeremy Murray

about trans rights, the woke approach isn't working in some respects. — Jeremy Murray

These are in line with my points. Certain woke-friendly principles and goals - such as equity, inclusiveness, defeating bias - are perfectly reasonable, and worthy of development. But many of the ways these principles and goals are implemented (by the woke) require, reverse-racism, inequity, unreasonableness, intolerance and exclusion. The impact, in the name of hearing voices, is to silence voices. The impact, in the name of victims, often creates victims. This is what we see between trans and women in sports. (It sounds like the type of contradictory cannibalism you might be painfully too familiar with.)

And the woke are unable to properly deal with shooting Charlie Kirk, for instance. The general woke response to Kirk’s shooting is that, it was wrong of course, but Kirk was a hateful idiot who practically asked for it. (One could argue that the true woke response is just, good riddance, but let’s push that to the extremists response.)

Shouldn’t the response have been, long ago, let’s beat Kirk in a public debate with own his microphone? After all, free speech is for every political speech. So violence against him should have been as horrifying to the woke as it was to Kirk supporters - we’ve all been silenced. The debate is over now. No one gets to win it.

But the woke have their own biases and desires, so the best they can say is “well I didn’t want him shot, but there certainly isn’t anything to cry about.” Yes there is - woke needs better advocates now. If they exist.

Interpreting events, institutions, and cultural norms in terms of power, inequality, and identity categories — praxis

That’s really helpful.

I would say two things about this:

1. What it says, in itself, reflects woke methodology. Interpreting events in a particular, woke way, reflects interpreting events in terms of power, distribution of equity, and identity categories.

2. There is more to woke than simply this method; there are specific woke conclusions one is to come to when using this method properly or one still hasn’t grasped wokeness. In other words, one could interpret events, institutions, and cultural norms in terms of power, inequality, and identity categories, but if one concludes from this process of interpretation that whites are being oppressed, or that females are not being oppressed, one has not achieved wokeness despite employing its methods.

I think it is simplistic to ask you to agree, because I’ve used the word “proper.”

But I’ll ask anyway. It seems to me 1, as method, doesn’t go far enough to capture what is woke.

Would you agree? There are woke conclusions and proper analysis, and there are unwoke conclusions and improper analysis (even of one is interpreting according to power, equity and identity categories)? So woke is more than method (it has its dogma).

very late in the game to be playing games. — praxis

What were you trying to say?

wokeness doesn’t go back to Karl Marx — praxis

You’re right. It’s more like Rousseau. Went mainstream in the 1960s. Institutionalized by 2000s.

You sound like you could say what woke is. Weird. Why not, instead of saying I was wrong, just give us the accurate information. Do you see the “End of woke”? I don’t. But then, maybe woke never got started?

Wittgensteinian. And an ever-moving target, — jorndoe

Isn’t that a positive feature of woke ideology? Everything in motion on a sliding scale - gender, definitions of “woke”, etc.

You could have tried. — jorndoe

Tried what?

Are the Trumpests "anti-woke"? — earlier

Do you mean, are people who voted for Trump against woke ideology (generally speaking of course)?

Or is this still the question:

Selecting people by merit instead of tradition/snobbery/conformity seems like the right thing to do.
Is that anti-conservative? — jorndoe

No, it’s not anti-conservative. Selecting by merit isn’t progressive or conservative or liberal or maga. Woke didn’t invent diverse pools to select from, or the criteria for selection that values “merit”.

The question is, what do you assign merit to, when making your selection? How important is it that we find a black woman, or Hispanic person, and look past the white men in the pool? Choosing the person with the most qualifications may mean choosing a white man. If being consistent with “merit” as the highest value. How does that fit in a wokety scale?

——

It is precisely because we are not equal that we are diverse. So woke policy has to be at odds with its ideological values. Woke policy has to pick a woke value and then pit it against another woke value.

When we value both equity and diversity together we have to exclude individuals from the narrow groups people can be divided into, all in order to re-include groups (no longer focused on individuals) in one wider, diverse group. Right? You have to put all of the blacks together, all of the whites separated out, then sub groups of women separated, from men, then now the trans folks - all excluded from each others’ groups. Then you can judge the super group that re-includes them all and judge whether it is equitably diversified, again, no longer concerned with this particular individual or that one, but merely concerned with the group they have been placed in and the ratio of numbers of members of sub-groups….

So which is the priority? Putting people in their diverse exclusive groups to give them recognition for their diversity, or overlooking the shallow, ignorant differences to see how all people qua people are valuable, have unique merit and deserve equal protection under one law? In which case we cannot evaluate specific situations based on generalizations and identity politics and groups - but need to look at each individual uniquely. And look at each Board of Directors uniquely. Etc…

the switch towards a "thin" anthropology, and the liberal phobia of strong ethical claims tends to unmoor them from any strong commitment to an ordering telos that structures the "self-development" they intend to promote. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Yes. Unmoored is the post-enlightenment state of affairs. And it is self-defeating: in the name of freedom, this unmooring makes us unable to be free, as in the name of self-development much advice diminishes the individual.

talk of “your good” or “finding your authentic self.” — Count Timothy von Icarus

My good will never be as good as the good. I am authentically in flux, so by only seeking my authentic self, without seeking virtue and objective moral guidance from outside myself, I never actualize something that is only potential in me. Basically, if one admits to oneself what one’s authentic self really is (namely, a potentially good person in need of assistance) one should be drawn out of one’s self (or instructed to look deeper into experience than merely at one’s self).

In the Western tradition ascetic/spiritual exercises were meant to re-order the soul toward truth, goodness, and the divine. In Buddhism, mindfulness is embedded in the Eightfold Path and oriented towards liberation. By contrast, modern adaptations tend to treat these disciplines as mere tools for the self-interested individual, e.g., a means of coping, maximizing productivity, reducing stress, or achieving “authenticity.” I have seen this particularly in some pieces on Stoicism I've read that seem to be largely aimed at the "tech-bro" crowd. A commitment to truth gets shoved aside for a view of philosophy as a sort of "life hack." — Count Timothy von Icarus

All of the transcendent, metaphysical aspects of philosophy have been mocked as superstition. Thrown out once and for all by Nietzsche and buried by post-modernism. But the self-helpers still find a sort of role-playing as metaphysician yields some physical benefits (for some unexplained reason), so they dress up like a philosopher to satisfy the deepest human cravings with tidbits and appetizers despite no sense of principle (because despite some traditional practices yielding practical benefits, “‘self’ help” is anathema to most all of our traditions. The East teaches us that seeking/finding any authentic self (in the liberal sense of self) is the opposite of enlightenment, and judeo-Christian-Islamism teaches we need God’s help, not just our own.

fragments of older ascetic traditions that have been hollowed out by modern ideologies. — Count Timothy von Icarus

With no respect at all paid to these older sources. We are too enlightened now to truly admire anyone pre-1969 (except maybe Marx, Darwin and Nietzsche).

Philosophy itself has been thoroughly academicatized and professionalized. Outdoor education and similar areas might have a better claim to its ancient mantel at this point (that is, they come much closer to how it was practiced) — Count Timothy von Icarus

I have always said that wisdom most often is found outside of academia. This is the case by conscious choice of many academics. Some universities are downright dangerous places for some individuals who naively seek wisdom there.

That it is: Existence
What it is: Essence — Baden

So are you saying:

That it is: Existence: the for-itself
What it is: Essence: the in-itself

our epistemic practices require certainties that are not proved from within the practice but make proof possible. — Sam26

Maybe not “certainties”? So “proof” is aspirational, or ideal. But the metaphysic outlined - namely, proof sites within epistemic practice, and so proving cannot be applied to the grounds (certainties) underlying the epistemology - sounds right to me.

Much of the literature treats Gettier as a mortal wound to JTB. I don’t. Gettier cases work only if we confuse seeming justified with being justified. If the support for a true belief essentially depends on a false ground, the belief fails the J-condition, full stop. I mark this with an anti-false-grounds constraint: justification must not essentially rely on falsehood. That preserves the classical core without endless epicycles. — Sam26

I agree 100%. K=JTB remains instructive. Useful under Wittegenstein as it is under Plato, and for many others.

hunt for one essence of justification; I look for overlapping patterns that guide our reasoning. — Sam26

Why isn’t the process of hunting for one essence the exact same process as looking for overlapping patterns that guide? I never understood the need to rebel against the notion of intelligible essence - whatever emerges and however it emerges that we call “knowledge,” it always still involves a “what it is to be.” K=JTB. Essence is what K speaks of. If K can ever be Justified as True, then Believing K is as much a possession of an essence as it is any other act that would demonstrate what one believes one knows. What is known, is what can be spoken; what can be spoken, distinguishes the essence of some thing spoken about. (But this may all be an unnecessary can of worms)

Truth and justification remain conceptually distinct, two different “grammars” in Wittgenstein’s sense, even though, in practice, our only route to truth runs through justificatory methods.

Truth: how the world is (a world constraint on speech acts).

Justified: whether one’s reasons meet the public standards of the operative language-game (science, law, everyday perception, math).

We don’t reduce truth to justification, and we don’t pretend justification is free of truth. We couple them so that justification tracks truth (anti-false-grounds + practice-safety), and Wittgensteinian hinges stop the regress (and circularity) that would make any coupling impossible. — Sam26

I agree.

I see them each contributing to knowledge as like a verb and a noun contribute to an assertion. True and justified may seem to do similar work, but if we keep one as the verb and the other the a noun, we see the two functions they fulfill. “True” references “how the world is” - a truth, there in the world, like a noun is fixed in sentence. “Justified” is a the process of matching reasons with the public standards and quality of the game play - this is a process, like a verb.

So the ‘justified’ part of JTB is the process, and the ‘true’ part is an end goal achieved by that process.

This is why it makes sense that it is circular but not collapsing (it is sort of self-affirming, making something self-evident within the community).

And the reason ‘justified and true’ can seem unsatisfyingly circular comes from the sense that we can make nouns of verbs and verbs into nouns (I think). Instead of “justified” (verb) “true” (adjective for the noun) belief, we could abuse language a bit and talk about “truing up” (verb, process) a “justified” (adjective) belief. So as long as we keep process and target separate, justification and truth do not consume each other but are shown as distinct moments inside knowledge.

Does it undermine the strong rejection to rationally illuminate the grounds for strong rejection? — Leontiskos

That is an interesting question because I believe it is frequently how people act (ignoring reasons associated with deeming something beyond the pale), but it is not necessary to do so, and indeed, if we abandon rational illumination, we abandon community and the possibility of morality.

We are talking about “strong” rejection, and this highlights the passion and emotion in it. To recognize what is beyond the pale draws with it an emotional response. Someone decapitates a kitten and an emotional revulsion is instinctual. But to recognize what is beyond the pale is also a specific judgement, a deeming, and these specific determinations can be “rationally illuminated”. Taking a breath and being rational about a “strong” rejection, will take some of the passion out of it in favor of dispassionate reasoning that can illuminate. And so in a sense, rational illumination undermines passionate strong rejection. And when passions alone or primarily drive the deeming of something beyond the pale, someone might also deem reasons may undermine the determination made from emotion.

But I am not sure this emotional/psychological analysis takes your question far enough.

As we all at times think, the depravity of some actions is so obviously beyond the pale, to even ask to illuminate the grounds for such judgments is to call something already obvious into question, and thereby potentially undermine its obviousness, which in turn undermines whether it is truly beyond the pale in the first place. This all means someone might judge that, when faced with what is clearly deemed beyond the pale, there is no reason to resist one’s passionate response nor is there reason to seek the illuminating details that justify one’s judgment. And further, as we are fallible when seeking rational illumination, we may undermine our own intellectual confidence by failing to reasonably illuminate what we have already strongly rejected and passionately deemed beyond the pale. (Like we just know 2+2=4 is beyond the pale, but if we can’t show our math, we may force ourselves to question something we passionately already know is true.)

But seeing rational illumination as undermining what has been deemed beyond the pale, seems like intellectual cowardice. And in my estimation, an unwillingness or inability to engage in rational illumination and discussion of one’s grounds for one’s determinations is part of the essence of behavior that may be beyond the pale. A determination of what is beyond the pale is not merely the product of strong emotion (or it is often based on reasons as well). Maybe the person who says “beheading kittens is always wrong so any person who did that or does that should be written off as beyond the pale” is being purely emotional about their esteem of kittens, but reasoning and logical inference and sound observation remain available for discussion. “Kitten killers are beyond the pale” is like any other determination, subject to rational scrutiny. And whenever one chooses to ignore rational scrutiny, or one cannot control one’s emotions enough to allow room for rational scrutiny, one is flirting with what I see as the most basic component of behavior that is beyond the pale, namely the avoidance of reason.

To apply what I am saying, Charlie Kirk said things many folks believed were beyond the pale. He wanted policy that many saw as harmful beyond the pale. But, to me, he did what he did in a debate forum, in the public square, inviting challenge and seeking rational grounds and illumination in every subject matter. Someone else deemed his very act of talking to be beyond the pale, that Kirk’s words did actual harm, and had to shut those actions down by killing him. Do I write off the shooting as beyond the pale without giving the shooter a hearing? No, as I would be treating the shooter the same way it looks like the shooter treated Charlie Kirk. But if the shooter will not or cannot rationally illuminate his grounds for shooting Charlie Kirk, then I have reasonable ground to deem the shooting as beyond the pale. And if the shooter asked me what I thought before he shot Charlie, and the shooter couldn’t or wouldn’t provide a reasonable basis to justify killing Kirk, I would tell him that shooting Kirk will be beyond the pale.

The pale, it seems to me, is reasonable discussion. What is beyond the pale is always in part beyond discussion. So, in any debate, nothing can be said that is beyond the pale. (In a debate is key context here - one can do tremendous harm beyond the pale with words, but not so in a debate among adults).

I still don’t have grounds to deem the shooter himself as beyond the pale. I cannot write him off and bury him in a ditch just because I saw him shoot Kirk. We must have faith, and find hope, and forgive, and love, and use reason and our words and our example to change hearts. Don’t get me wrong, shooting people for their political speech alone is always wrong and beyond the pale, but it is precisely the silence and foreclosing of discussion that makes it wrong, and so we must interrogate the shooter, seek his rational illumination and then judge the nature of his crime. I suspect he will not be able to justify shooting a man like that. But it would be beyond the pale to judge the shooter without hearing him out. (And this has nothing to do with criminal judgement and punishment - we all have a law against assignation, and if we catch someone cold in the act of assassination, they go to jail or get the death penalty - present the facts and apply the law; but we don’t judge them evil, or find their soul or whole being beyond the pale without a hearing. Such judgment may be further beyond the pale then the motivations behind the shooting.)

they will reduce their price if you hire a DEI officer? — Mijin

How about deny a claim if the insured isn’t able to demonstrate compliance with the law?

Ask your broker to get you competing quotes with a DEI officer and without.

Call a couple insurance companies. Or do you only trust AI…

Strong Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) programs can positively impact a company's insurability and premium costs for Employment Practices Liability Insurance (EPLI). Conversely, reducing DEI efforts may increase risk exposure and potentially lead to higher costs.
Here is a breakdown of the relationship between DEI officers and employment insurance.
Employment Practices Liability Insurance (EPLI)
An EPLI policy protects a company from claims of discrimination, wrongful termination, harassment, and other employment-related misconduct. A dedicated DEI officer can influence EPLI in several ways:
Risk reduction: By developing and implementing robust DEI programs, training, and equitable employment practices, a DEI officer can help mitigate the risks of discrimination and harassment claims. This proactive approach can make a company a more attractive risk to insurers.
Favorable premiums: Insurers often evaluate a company's internal controls and risk management. For companies with strong, well-documented DEI initiatives, underwriters may offer lower EPLI premiums due to the perceived lower risk of litigation.
Underwriting scrutiny: As the legal and social landscape around DEI shifts, insurers are paying closer attention to a company's approach. Underwriters may ask more questions about a company's DEI programs and policies. Having a DEI officer who can clearly articulate and defend these programs can be a significant advantage.

Or - https://www.ijacademy.com/a-case-for-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-in-your-epli-toolkit#:~:text=Quick%20Overview,$129.00

Wokeness costs. No big deal. Just another drip drop in the ocean of political bullshit. There are lots of stupid costs in life. What point do you think you can win here either way? (Oh that’s right you don’t answer questions.) I think we should move on.

Unless you want to say something more about how DEI leads to a diverse workforce and more profits. Besides just citing someone else’s experience. Do you have any real experience with employment law claims and DEI? Do you know what the claims say and how to defend against them and how to win them?

Czeslaw Milosz wrote about in the Captive Mind, where he had to come up with delusions in order to soothe the inevitable cognitive dissonance required to live under Stalinism — NOS4A2

The woke don’t see the dissonance, the incoherence and the contradictions. I’ve pointed a few out to some
folks I assume are sympathetic to woke ideology (they won’t say it or make that clear), and have not once been engaged.

definitions are fraught — jorndoe

Perfect starting place for a woke position.

Unless we are defining maga, because they are the definition of jackass bastards. Or white men. Nothing fraught about it. Clear as day what is what and who is who there.

But woke Asian woman is by definition undefinable. Because of the woke part. And the Asian part. And the woman part. Need more context and usages to figure any of those words out. Especially when talking with someone who isn’t woke - abuse and oppression loom at every turn of phrase.

I am exactly responding to the claim that it was necessary for "good" insurance.

So, I'll ask again: are you maintaining that a given insurer, or a particular insurance package, mandated that you hire a DEI officer? — Mijin

Go read the posts about exactly what I am maintaining.

This is dumb.

Let me give you an analogy of why I can’t easily answer your question with the word “mandated” in it. Your question shows you aren’t seeing what I said. There is a legal requirement in many laws (HIPAA, GLBA, various state laws) that companies train their employees on data security. Training is the mandate. But exactly what the training is supposed say (what the actual content is) and how the company is supposed to document proof of training is not mandated. So companies have to figure out how to comply with these legal requirements. One way is to hire firms to provide and document training in ways the regulators have since accepted. Sooo, is hiring a firm to provide and document training mandated?? No, but aside from your average company becoming an expert in legally compliant training about data privacy to comply with the law, your average company has to hire a firm to do this training. It’s similar with employment law, and DEI. For insurers, companies must promise by contract that they will comply with all laws or their claims may be denied - how do companies show they are compliant with employment law today? One thing they can do is name a DEI officer to be responsible for compliance, to figure out how to train, etc. Looks really good on paper. Saves money on premium. And if there is ever an employment claim, the insurance company has less ammunition to deny paying the claim. There are other nuances and details.

So “mandated” which I didn’t say, has nothing to do with my point about how the real world of insuring a business works and how wokeism impacts it.

I have a feeling you still don’t understand and think you made some sort of point about the anti-woke and boogiemen.

———

Wokeism isn’t anything but a boogieman to help manufacture some sort of fascist takeover by white Christian supremecists, or whatever. Got it.

Enjoy the next three years hating Trump and MAGA as they furiously remake America. Hope we aren’t all in a concentration camp under the police state when they declare Trump emperor by then.

In the meantime, learn nothing about the anti-woke, what actually motivates them, what they actually mean, because you understand everything (including insurance underwriting and claim handling).

some gagging" == universities, government agencies including health agencies, the judiciary, the free press and millions of Americans' right to protest. — Mijin

No one has been “gagged”. Everyone is free to print whatever news is fit to print. Just because news media and professors are wimps and whiners doesn’t mean there is any actual political crisis going on.

No one has a right to be in the White House press room. Universities don’t have a right to government funding. Federal government agencies are under the control of the executive branch - that’s the system. And the courts are reviewing cases as always - a couple judges broke the law and were arrested. Judges don’t get to be politicians, that’s the point of a separate judiciary.

You are being a baby. Like the news media. And your average college professor.

As soon as Trump is out of office you won’t remember these made-up problems. I should say once the media loses interest in selling their anecdotes about the threats to democracy, you won’t be reminded of what they think is important anymore.

"gagging athena" == an anecdote from one guy — Mijin

I agree - it’s three (not one) small anecdotes from just one little person. But everyone has these anecdotes. Even the woke get screwed by woke sometimes. (See trans versus feminists). I’m trying to get away from talking anecdotes at all. What are woke principles and do they work? Is DEI tailored to only have to do with “hiring from a diverse pool” as you say? Is that the extent of what you think DEI does - diversify hiring?

The point of Athena’s anecdotes isn’t about how it impacted just Athena. She said the shelter preached about hating men. That’s a lot of people impacted by woke ideology. And if you don’t think hating men, particularly white men, is promoted by wokeism, you are aloof. And my point drawn from the Athena anecdote is different as well. My point is that the woke masters of diversity and inclusion are always happy to be prejudiced and sexist against men. My point is the wokeism in practice is contradictory and self defeating - as here, in order to signal one’s virtues of diversity, equity and inclusions, one spouts of how all men must be alike (not diverse), how all men need to be excluded (not from the shelter itself but from respect) - in order to fight inequitable treatment, they treat men inequitably. And they don’t (won’t) see how this will never work and is utter bullshit and only makes them feel like victims. So much harm no one wants to address.

[naming a DEI officer] was a requirement of a particular insurer — Mijin

I never said requirement or legal requirement to get insurance. You said that. I said we had to do it to get good insurance. We could have done other things but we had to demonstrate commitment to ramming woke bullshit down our employees throats - naming a DEI officer is one way to bolster that picture. Talk to some people who buy employment insurance. Despite what you think, DEI (so wokeism) is a real thing, costing (wasting) real dollars. And despite all of the divisiveness of our society, most people are kind, respectful, courteous, forgiving, team builders - all before their DEI and implicit bias tutorial.

——

If you look in my posts, I’ve said favorable things about woke and DEI. They do exist. I am trying my best to dialogue.

Do you really have no idea what all the fuss is about wokeness? You can’t give one inch to someone who thinks DEI has a dark side to it? You can’t just have a conversation?

I challenge you to spend a day outside your home in public places and not be confronted by the new political correctness. Maybe you don’t notice it because you are so deeply invested. But the American culture has changed significantly in the past 20 years - everyone is walking on eggshells in public. Even stand-up comedians (almost all liberals) complain about how shut down speech is by wokeness. There are millions of anecdotes showing concrete actual issues. We are so past the anecdotal evidence gathering phase that a guy like Trump got elected because he admitted there are issues with DEI.

The left should face this discussion head on to save the good parts of woke - the real enlightenment it seeks to promote. But they don’t seem to self-reflect. At all. They are just still shocked Trump won - how could people possibly elect such a scumbag? No idea.

retarded — jorndoe

Woke police 1980 - the word is “handicapped”, not retarded anymore.
Woke police 1990 - the word is “disabled”, not handicapped.
Woke police 2000s - the word is “physically challenged” Woke police 2010s - the word is “handi-capable” or “other-abled” (we can make up words now, like “woke”, even if they mean the opposite of what they say, like “she”).
Woke police 2020’s - you can be canceled, fired, shunned mocked, scorned for saying “retarded”.

You gotta know the rules and keep up with the right newspeak.

Not what I associate with "woke", — jorndoe

Are you willing to say what woke is? I haven’t seen anyone really try to say it. Just talk around it and talk about the unwoke. What do you see that should be associated with woke?

What I associate with woke is being told what to think and say.

the gagging of universities, government departments, journalists etc that right now is happening — Mijin

So some gagging is terrible, but gagging Athena wasn’t.

It’s all baby shit.

Anti-woke is often just as pathetic as woke. So what? I was trying to talk about woke.

You just don’t see it. Wokeness animated the election of Trump twice, but you don’t even see anything solid about it at all. It is so real a guy like Trump could win up against Ms. Kamala Wokeness. But to you, woke is a mass hallucination Athena and Trump alone can see.

If I were to point you to the data that more diverse workforces are associated with higher profitability, would it change your view on DEI? If not then there's your answer. — Mijin

So are corporate profits and capitalism good to you? Because that’s not woke - that’s exploitation and greed and builds oligarchies and permanent underclasses.

But assuming you could get your hands on some university study about how amazing DEI had been for corporate America, that doesn’t change what it is. It’s still incoherent (like you using profit to justify DEI is contradictory).

This is a much more careful and longer conversation. I don’t want to proceed unless you tell me what woke actually is to you - if you don’t think it’s a thing, a force, a set of policies, a philosophic worldview, then we will never build a conversation. We are just talking to ourselves here.

You say “anti-woke” is horseshit arguments to justify fascist behavior that is causing real harm.

I say you’ve skipped over the topic, namely: what is woke. If you don’t think woke even is anything, then no wonder you are so animated by Trump’s actions - they make no sense at all to you. It’s like watching a fireman aim his hose all over a building that isn’t burning, hearing the fireman yell he needs more water and watching him destroy the building for the sake of a fire that doesn’t exist. That’s what you see anti-woke doing.

from some googling around… some (minority) of insurers require a declaration of what the DEI policy is, but they can't ask you to hire someone. — Mijin

You might not know what you are talking about. Maybe there is no basis to accuse me of exaggerating. Google some more.. There are lots of ways to meet insurance underwriting requirements. There are lots of ways insurers can hike up your premium. There are lots of ways insurers can deny your claims? You really might want to talk to some business owners about what they actually do, what they have to do, what they do that is above and beyond the law and insurance requirements, and why they do it.

But who cares, woke isn’t real so anti-woke grievances can’t actually be about anything concrete.

You can’t see what woke is.

Years ago, I was horrified by the demands of men-hating, homosexual women, who had gotten control of a women's shelter. I was in training to be a volunteer, and as their hate of men went on and on, I felt like I had to defend men. I dared to say, it is not only men who can be abusive, but women can be the abusers too. That resulted in being told I was not welcome. These angry women also made it a rule that mothers must allow their children to sit on the laps of a gay person, and if they did not, this mother and child needing protection would be thrown out of the center. Anyone who opposed them in any way was the enemy, and anger was their driving force.
— Athena — Fire Ologist

That’s woke.

That’s impacting lives, unlike your boogieman summation of what woke is.

Years ago, I was horrified by the demands of men-hating, homosexual women, who had gotten control of a women's shelter. I was in training to be a volunteer, and as their hate of men went on and on, I felt like I had to defend men. I dared to say, it is not only men who can be abusive, but women can be the abusers too. That resulted in being told I was not welcome. These angry women also made it a rule that mothers must allow their children to sit on the laps of a gay person, and if they did not, this mother and child needing protection would be thrown out of the center. Anyone who opposed them in any way was the enemy, and anger was their driving force. — Athena

@Mijin there are millions of stories like that. They’ve been piling up since the 1980s. Maybe these aren’t a priority to you, and that’s fine, but this all sounds like fascism and intolerance to me. It all sounds like what maga thinks is “woke”. You could acknowledge there is something called “woke” that is real. You could even acknowledge the above example is what is wrong with wokeism. Wokeism wants to help women and homosexuals. That’s great. We all should all help each other. But the above example doesn’t help anyone. And it’s hurting our culture and society and promoting contradiction (to bring justice to women they admonish someone for stating a fact).

@Athena gave two more examples. She is one person. There are millions of real harms in the name of wokeness. My cousin, husband and father of two girls was fired for utter bullshit in the name of DEI.

I don’t even care about all of the anecdotes and who is a victim and who is an oppressor. They are just useful facts to support the fact that wokeness is a real thing and that it creates it own brand of harms. But forget the anecdotes - I only care about the principle and the philosophy.

What is woke? Is it good? Can good policy promote good woke principles?
From what I can tell, woke principles are in need of discussion (like, what does woke mean?). And from what I can tell, the enforcement of woke through DEI has been utterly wasteful if not harmful, with shallow few benefits to show for it.

Fighting "the woke" or "the woke mind virus" is the excuse being given — Mijin

Wokeism is a type of totalitarian fascism. Can we acknowledge that first on a thread about the end of woke? Or does “wokeism” not exist?

All across the country right now, freshmen college students are being asked what their pronoun is. That’s DEI. The boys (usually boys) who make fun of the exercise in proclaiming your pronoun are being punished. That’s like fascism.

That’s our world today. Companies telling workers to list their pronouns in their email signature. Turning everyone into a ridiculous farce of a decent human being.

Progressive liberalism has its weaknesses. Wokeism embodies most of them.

[DEI] has worked just fine for thousands of corporations — Mijin

DEI has not been implemented successfully. Companies have survived it successfully. DEI can’t be successful because in the name of diversity, it isolates distinct exclusive groups (women, Hispanic, Asian, Jewish, whatever…..), then it argues all of these distinctions and differences are equal (so the differences don’t matter at all). Then it argues the differences matter so much people need to be fired and certain people with different skin tones and sexes need to be hired. In the name of respecting the human soul it says appearances skin deep are important. DEI will only succeed under a totalitarian state (like a corporation) because people are all individuals and never fit into boxes like “whites” or “trans” - DEI is all about boxes. Utter bullshit. Only a corporate boss has the kind of control to implement DEI.

And all you can do is tell me how I won’t talk about MAGA.

I am a founder of a law firm with 235 employees. We have a DEI officer. Not because it is necessary for people to get along. Not to teach our employees how to respect each other. Not to teach our employees how to be humble. Not because we need to be reminded of biases or of where to look for new talent. We have a DEI officer because we can’t get good employment insurance without it. It’s utter bullshit, coerced by law and the new marketplace created by wokeness. We have diversity nights where we invite people to speak about the Chinese New Year, or aboriginal religious practices. Ethnic foods served. It’s fun, and interesting, and good. It’s also utterly pointless towards anything real in our business, except we can say we do these things to our insurance underwriter and for some reason everyone thinks something real has been accomplished, like there is some measurement of diversity equity and inclusion that is bolstered.

So the boogieman costs real money, money that could go into salaries. The boogieman leads to utterly wasteful conversations when hiring a white man, or when considering an unqualified person who will make us look better on paper. DEI is as much an immoral lie as it is an attempt at correcting immoral racism/sexism.

DEI is about equality and trying to draw from as wide a pool as possible. — Mijin

Is that it? You don’t really think a company that wants profit isn’t trying to draw from the widest pool possible to gain more profit?

DEI is about shaming too. It’s about coercing people into behaving and speaking and even thinking differently. It’s about punishing those who disagree with the woke sheep who glorify skin tones above the individual. It’s about virtue signaling, not virtue.

it's punching down versus punching up. — Mijin

It’s punching. That is the point. You can claim your own spot on whatever ladder you are climbing up or down if you want, and see your poor victims punching up and your privileged assholes punching down. It’s all punching. It’s a simple point, and because you said punching twice, it looks like you might agree with it.

I’m not putting words in your mouth. I’m telling you what the things you say mean to me. I could be wrong, but no need to call me shameful. You may mean something else. This is just a conversation.

We will never defeat or reduce racism by pointing out how white people are privileged systemically. Because a “system” isn’t racist. Especially not the American system. Sick human hearts are racist. A discussion about systemic racism is not a discussion about individual racists and individual victims.

If, in fact, our socio-economic-political system institutionalized racism and white power, then the system needs to be torn down and replaced. Some woke people do argue the capitalist republican system needs to be shredded and thrown out. I disagree the system has the type of flaws that require the whole system to be torn down (at least since women gained the vote and ‘separate but equal’ was thrown out, both improvements enabled by the structure of the system) - it’s not the system that is the problem; it’s individuals in our good system who implement its policies like immoral assholes.

This is a precise point I’m making. Is the American system inherently flawed when it comes to race or not? I say no. Perfection is taking hundreds of years to build, but the basic system is working.

So that means woke people who rail against the system, rage against the machine, are missing the mark, wasting our time, contradicting themselves, making incoherent arguments, and suggesting terrible policies and practices.

"When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression" — Mijin

That is an huge admission regarding the failure of woke policy. So is a policy goal of woke to take white people down, or is it to raise non-white people up, or both? Why do we need to think race offers anyone any political or economic advantage over anyone else at all?? Fuck race. Thinking like that will never work. We ARE politically equal now - only racists see otherwise. If we want to fight racism, we need to fight the urge to attach victimhood or privilege to skin color alone.

DEI is an academic, theoretical discussion - but implemented in HR departments of corporate America, it’s utter bullshit. It utterly divides and polarizes brown versus red versus yellow versus black versus white. It builds intolerance, inequity and exclusion, just in a new form, and of a different color.

we have given you, repeatedly, the long list of the ways that fascism is being implemented in the US right now, with one of the justifications frequently being "fighting woke". You haven't acknowledged any of it. — Mijin

I am trying to focus on woke qua woke. You want me to acknowledge maga qua facism. I see that as another discussion. You are talking about the policies and enforcement of policies by those who are anti-woke. These policies may be full of flaws (plenty to debate there). MAGA people can be wrong about a lot of things. But that is a different thread. One thing at a time.

Before that, my question is still this: is there a legitimate justification for fighting wokeness? You won’t even say there is a such thing as woke policy. So you don’t see any reason to fight. To you, there only seems to be a boogieman invented by facists. You want to have a different conversation.

Which goes way back to my points about why woke ideology won’t and can’t criticize itself.

Let me ask you something, do you think it would be dangerous if the people in power could convince us that sometimes two plus two equals four, and sometimes two plus two equals five?

Or how about convincing us that “she” can apply to a person with a penis or a vagina? Is there absolutely no danger to equating bullying insults with slanderous physical assaults that require government intervention and law enforcement (DEI)? Is there nothing dangerous about shouting about systemic racism and how the system is rigged when it is the same system that is the best place to even attempt justice on this earth? Should we be delegitimizing government? Does anyone think the individual, lowly, poor victim, of any race, has a better chance at justice in the US or then they would in China, or Central/South America, or most of Africa, the Middle East, or North Korea, or even Britain or Germany? Are woke policies and many of their ideas of what is good and what is bad full of shit or not?

One boogieman at a time.

suggesting an ethical stance — jorndoe

I agree selecting people by merit is the best way for people to select people to fulfill roles and jobs.

I am a conservative.

What is the ethical line you are drawing between conservatism and wokeism?

ethical stance, then trying to ask if that's more important than conservatism. — jorndoe

Conservatism just means protecting what works, what is already deemed good enough.

Of one is merely conservative, one will make many bad choices, but sometimes, the conservative choice is the best one.

Not sure how your ethical stance involving merit begs a wuestion about how important conservatism is. It’s not clear what is conservative and what is not about merit versus snobbery. There is no such thing as a woke snob? The woke choice will never be based on a three year old tradition?

how come you can poke fun about white people in ways that are considered racist if you were to say about other races?

And the answer is that it's not symmetric because society is white majority, — Mijin

That means you completely agree with the facts. The facts are, when you are racist against white men, it is poking fun, but when you are racist against others, it true racism.

That, to me, is a problem. It’s inconsistent. It’s illogical. It’s impossible to fairly and equitably enforce and implement policy. It’s yielded popularism and Trumpism. It leads to ridiculous and destructive divisions among brothers and sisters. It allows for scapegoating and glossing over real problems. Worst of all, it ignores good white men and discounts their opinions that aren’t woke. The fact that “it’s not symmetric because (our) society is white majority” only means you have to look even more closely at individuals to see who is racist and who isn’t; it doesn’t mean white men can’t be victims of racism in America or Europe. That is bullshit that hurts the battle against racism.

I’m not saying racism is as big a problem for all races - not even close - I’m saying when I’ve heard woke people tell whites they can’t be victims of racism because they are in power, I call bullshit - you need to look deeper than skin tone to identify both perpetrators and victims of racism. And without more precision and accuracy, racism will simply keep perpetrating itself.

It is precisely the fact the poor black and brown people can be racist against rich white men, that makes racism immoral and illogical - all men are men regardless of race and it is men who are racist, not “white” men or “green” men.

So the larger point about all of the above:
Woke, which is good for fighting racism, is using racist policy and tactics to fight racism. Woke is incoherent, contradictory, self-defeating, in need of critique. Fighting racism is good. Identifying white majority status is necessary; but saying there is no racism against the ones in power is misunderstanding racism, ignoring facts, a lie, an agenda that has nothing to do with race, bad reasoning, all of the above…

My position IOW is that it's bullshit. — Mijin

Ok, but there are all different flavors of bullshit. I’m sure you can say something of what wokeness is that makes the anti-woke, anti-woke, and not some other flavor of bullshit artist. (And just the fact that you use the word “bullshit” makes me want to agree with you; it’s one of my favorite philosophic terms of art, but…)

You can’t clarify exactly how the anti-woke are living in fantasy grievance land a bit more? What do you think they see as they make their false grievances? You can’t imagine at all, after all the grievances you’ve heard?

How is “anti-woke” so clearly bullshit, but “woke” can mean nothing to you? Seems a bit superficial.

you've got this backwards. It is a boogieman of mostly manufactured and exaggerated grievances. — Mijin

Ok. Anti-woke people see a boogieman. Fine.

Do the anti-antiwoke (such as yourself) see any boogie men?

Isn’t a straight-white-man a sort of boogieman for the woke? What if he’s rich too? A capitalist white prep school nepo baby with some German/Italian/Irish in his veins. No reason not to pick on such a person, right? I can use them as a stand in for any theft, lie, rape, conspiracy, murder, war, and I am within bounds of respectable argumentation. All white men are the same on some level, because they are all white men. Right?

Now here is why you are wrong that the anti-woke are merely fabricating a boogieman: Will I ever get fired if I get caught saying any of that in this context? No way. How about if I said this about some other race? Do you think I could make any point talking about some non-white person without inviting utter condemnation and disgust? Think about it. Wokeness is very entrenched. The woke police are everywhere there are groups of people. One of us will always be willing to correct those who are micro-oppressing (regardless of the context…) DEI has altered our etiquette so much that we pay real lip service to utter bullshit and we don’t even notice.

This thread is called “the End of Woke”. THAT is bullshit. Woke is 100 years old in Europe (white men like Marx inspired it). It’s not going anywhere. It ain’t dead. Trump and MAGA could just as easily turn out to be a death rattle for the notion that some things are old for a good reason.

Could Trump be a boogieman (how dare I even suggest such a theory!)

and you can't even define it. — Mijin

:rofl: Who is leaning on “can’t define it” now? That was my line! I am happy to get started on a definition any time. What do you need? A definition of woke?
I did get a general sense of woke started for us:

“Woke” refers to being aware of social injustice, but also the hidden causes of such injustice; and it means to search deeper into how injustice has been systemically built into our institutions (like the police and justice system, capitalism, patriarchy, conservatism, Christianity). Being awake or enlightened, but to the ways our traditions have let us down. — Fire Ologist

What do you think? Where am I off on the wrong foot? What needs to be added?

it's "anti-woke" that is impinging on people's and institutional freedoms — Mijin

So you won’t say what is woke, but the anti-woke is a clear threat.

Institutional freedoms? Like the wonderful judicial system that, used to be hated for incarcerating too many victims of racism, but is now under threat from the president?

Institutional freedoms like the rule of law, which would include border immigration reform?

The reason woke thinkers won’t define “woke” is because it would reveal its incoherence and contradictions.

manufactured and exaggerated grieveances — Mijin

Enough to elect an idiot like Donald Trump? Twice?

You just don’t want to look directly at wokeness and criticize it.

European men are some of the smartest and best leaders in history.
Woman, generally, are smaller and physically weaker than men.
One man and one woman, married, as mother and father, typically provide the basis of a good family, and typically the best situation to raise a child.

Why should anyone cringe at hearing the above? Because it’s not woke.

Selecting people by merit instead of tradition/conformity seems like the right thing to do.
Is that anti-conservative? — jorndoe

Before DEI, most people that rose to their station did so by hard work. But only white men got to play that game. So the issue before DEI wasn’t that all of these incompetent nepotism babies were running everything. The issue was that no one considered anyone besides white men when looking for replacement people.

So “selecting people by merit” versus selecting them by “tradition/confirmity” seems like a false dichotomy. The world pre-DEI wasn’t a monarchy. (If we were having this debate in the year 1804, you might have a point, but then no one would listen to you at all unless you were a white man.)

You need to define “conservatism” now f you want to make some point about how it’s bad. It’s not conservative to overlook merit for the sake of tradition/conformity - it’s ignorant and prejudiced. It’s a type of injustice conservative people do; but then, do you think woke people never choose fellow woke people over some republican who might actually be more competent? So you missed your mark.

Why not just define what is good about woke?

Is the only critique of anti-woke to come from the woke? — praxis

No, and you keep proving my point by dodging.

I’m anti-wokeness. But I also think resisting certain diversity/equity/inclusion initiatives was and remains ignorant and irrational and morally wrong. So, once again, the ball is in your court to make some sort of point.

I agree, race or sex has nothing to do with the best candidate for a job — Fire Ologist

I also agree, until the 1980’s, and for some still today, many people just refused to see the fact that women and all races can be just as good at many jobs as anyone else, and to just be happy for this fact. I agree much progress has been made towards this good, equitable goal since the 1980s.

Racism is irrational. Sexism is ignorant — Fire Ologist

Can you find any fault with DEI, wokeness, anti-conservatism? Anything at all good come from tradition and white father figures??

So you didn’t even try to define it. You should ask yourself why you don’t think a definition of your position is necessary. Why would you not simply say something about what woke is, what it does, what it positively means and points to?

Like this:

“Woke” refers to being aware of social injustice, but also the hidden causes of such injustice; and it means to search deeper into how injustice has been systemically built into our institutions (like the police and justice system, capitalism, patriarchy, conservatism, Christianity). Being awake or enlightened, but to the ways our traditions have let us down.

Instead you said:

the best candidate for a job might not be the white, male, able-bodied guy who looks like all the others and we should try to cast as wide a net as possible.

Thousands of companies have implemented such policies successfully. — Mijin

That was the closet to a positive, substantive promotion of wokeness given.

And I agree, race or sex has nothing to do with the best candidate for a job. (But doesn’t it depend on the what the job is, at least sometimes? Are there no jobs where a certain race or sex might be preferable? I just want us to acknowledge that possibility, so we don’t appear unreasonable or to have zero common sense - or do you honestly think there are absolutely no jobs on earth that aren’t best handled by one sex or one race over the other(s)?)

But I also agree, until the 1980’s, and for some still today, many people just refused to see the fact that women and all races can be just as good at many jobs as anyone else, and to just be happy for this fact. I agree much progress has been made towards this good, equitable goal since the 1980s.

Racism is irrational. Sexism is ignorant.

So what could possibly be wrong with the progress wokeism has promoted since the 1980s?

So you skipped 1, gave a small bit for 2. I’ve tried to show you how I am on the same page with you about certain progress. But now let’s try to answer 3 (which you skipped as well as it called for a critique of woke).

What has been harmed by all of this progress? Anything?
Is there anything illogical or incoherent or contradictory going on as this progress is being made, because if there is, don’t you think things may come crashing down as the inconsistencies rot any progress from within?

Is the only critique of woke to come from the unwoke?

If you don’t want to go there yet, can you tell me anything else besides “best candidate for a job might not be white” that has been good because of woke activism? What else is woke, and good medicine?

Why not just:
1. Define woke.
2. Construct something new, propose good woke policy and practice
3. Self-reflect from the woke side of the equation and show where woke needs improvement - be critical of “critical theory” for just a bit.

?

Or just tell me what MAGA is, avoid discussing what woke is, and demonstrate the point I made.

the former USSR and the USA were not so different states in the mentality of their citizens (which may sound like wildness now), which I cannot say about the closeness of the Chinese and American mentalities. — Astorre

Former USSR and the USA folks are both more liberal thinking (even individualistic) than average Chinese folk, in wildly broad terms.

So, it's not accurate to say that people become woke to “avoid responsibility.” Rather, wokeness often stems from unconscious motivations that are more complex than we usually admit. — Number2018

Yes, but if these motivations are unconscious, which is what you are saying, then aren’t we talking about ‘motivations’ now, and not the thing at hand, wokeness? The unconscious motivation for being woke is one thing; what makes it “woke”, head on, woke qua wokeness, is another thing.

I’m not saying we don’t have to talk about motivations and unconscious motivations, but we have to talk about how these motivate woke thinking and woke actions and woke activism, versus something else.

Woke is an activist control mechanism, not an actual philosophy.

So there is no point debating the philosophical underpinnings - the average wokist can't articulate them anyway. — Jeremy Murray

Hey Jeremy. Thanks for chiming in.

Activist control mechanism. I can picture the herding that often accompanies the woke - the control mechanics of it (and I’m interested in further thoughts about how a shepherd can use wokeness to control the activist); but I also see an essence to wokeism, a philosophical underpinning, a what it is to be woke. There is a philosophy in there. It’s basically post-modernist mental acrobatics applied to hurting those in power (really, white men) (with no concern for who is thereby helped, and no concern for why someone might have this power)

And I don’t think you are really saying there isn’t a woke philosophy at all. You may just be recognizing that the woke themselves never provide much philosophical support for what they believe and say, and do.

I have a few theories about why the philosophy of woke is never directly discussed:

1. It’s unwoke to define something clearly - definition itself is an oppression. A well articulated principle is like authoritarian law, and tyranny. So if the woke clearly define “woke” they simultaneously perform a demonstration in anti-woke behavior. The minute something becomes defined clearly, it becomes institutionalized in a sense, so if that thing is “wokeness” and wokeness is supposed to be anti-institution, then the definition itself must be incoherent. So they can’t bother with definitions. Like “what is a woman?” If you even ask that question you are probably unwoke. (They only define those they want to dominate and impose absolute changes upon, like white men, or patriarchy.)

2. Woke debate tactics are to wait for the opponent to make an assertion, and attack and deconstruct that. They don’t usually build the position or assert the claim; instead, they take down opposing claims. So for the woke to say ‘what it is to be woke’ is for them to create a target for shredding and deconstructing, because taking other things down is what they do best, not building something new, or defending it from deconstruction.

3. The woke, the masters of “critical theory” never self-reflect, because they have already decided their position is obviously superior, common sense, morally superior, rational, and most practical. Thinking woke lends itself to only sharing thoughts inside a bubble of like-minded workers. They already know that the only goal of securing the border is to keep out disfavored races. That’s it - and if you don’t understand that, you aren’t reasonable or even intelligent enough to be worth debating. There is no need to debate what is obvious to them. In short, wokeists are often (not always), among the least critical thinkers I’ve met. (This is obviously ironic - wokeism is supposed to be more aware, and it is supposed to be more aware by uncovering hidden bias - but they never ask themselves about their woke conclusions, totally sleeping on the many biases and prejudices that abound in their speech and actions.)

So I agree with you that there is no point debating. And this thread never really took off. The woke proponent is doing psychology when you ask a philosophical question, and doing epistemology when you ask an ethical question. Wokeness or any one issue is not dealt with head on. If any thread screamed for full-throated defense of wokeness, this one does; yet no one goes there.

People who showcase an unhealthy obsession with things in the past that they have little to no connection to, are often running away from their problems in the present. — Tzeentch

Maybe some people, but everyone who ever uses the expression “things are getting worse” is focused on the past in comparison with a present they see as worse than the past. So a blanket condemnation as “unhealthy obsession” of all conservative thinking shoots down along with it anyone who ever sees things are getting worse.

We are all conservative at times. Just as we are all liberal progressives at other times. There is no need to demonize finding good things in the past to emulate and to bring back, before things keep getting worse. Just as, for conservatives, there is no need to demonize tearing down any institutions (some need to be torn down) or to fear anything new and untested.

in everyday life…a simple person, with ordinary views, with simple desires and good intentions. Perhaps philosophy teaches us this? — Astorre

Philosophy unteaches us this.

Right? At least that is how the philosopher is born, when he sees through something that just a moment ago was solid and opaque. When he has unlearned what he thought he knew. And then philosophy unteaches us that, and we no longer see “things” nor do we see “seeing things” the same again.

Philosophy is the rational struggle to get back to being the simple person, with a clear simple view, able to be witnessed by and shared with any ordinary person. Philosophy teaches us that is no longer likely, try as we may to make a simpler understanding.

And so on ad infinitum. As they said above - you can't put the genie back in the bottle =))) — Astorre

Exactly, trying to put the genie back.

We’ve leaned that we’ve been lost all along so the first thing we know is the question - where the hell am I?

But it’s not “ad infinitum”. It’s just one small finite step at a time. To reach, ad inifinitum you have to stand still and not move at all. But I see progress in this.

one does not “decide” to be an activist in a fully autonomous, intentional sense. — Number2018

a need …or a desire, draws one into it — Number2018

Although I don’t disagree we are drawn and pushed, I still think once in a while, we make a true choice, a fully responsible act.

The very process of trying to awaken is a stripping away of forces that draw us and push us. At some point, I believe we know enough to sit atop the wave that is society and become an individual, and even guide society for brief moments. Freedom is that goal.

So I don’t know why you are saying one never decides to be an activist. I think for some, we do decide, and it is those we need to discusss.

desire is never pre-social. It does not originate from a pure, inner core of the individual, but is always produced within and through social assemblages. — Number2018

Again, I am not disagreeing the general picture that creates/ I see what you are describing too. But in that same picture, I still see self-identifiable desire as a possibility. So I disagree “desire is NEVER pre-social.” Sometimes, desire reveals the true subject in its solitude. That’s what true desire creates - the finite, the particular, or the part that remains unlike the whole, waiting to be actualized (desire that is acted upon).

And what happens is that if a desire EVER actually is pre-social (or extra-social), than such true desires are a new animal, not what you are describing. Such desires are a true novelty and new identity, in addition to all of aspects of our identities that involve social construction.

So I think I have to disagree with Deluze. We need to recognize the space, the vacuum, created clear as day that becomes filled only by the truly novel self. Perhaps this self does not “originate from a pure, inner core”, but once it declares itself, it is claimed and staked out and becomes one’s inner core (or at least “core” becomes something to continue clarifying…)

..,one’s ideology resonates with the subject’s unconscious investments, shaped by one’s socio-aesthetic milieu. — Number2018

People in very similar social-aesthetic milieu’s can go very different directions. Are we starting to talk more about any activism, and not something particular to wokeness? “Unconscious” is not conscious intention. Likewise, one’s “milieu” is outside of and separate from the subject (woven together, but distinguishable). All of these outside forces shaping activist behavior, seems to build a lot of psychological room for a lack of responsibility and accountability. Is that what you are saying is a feature of wokeness? I don’t think I’m following you anymore. Are you saying that the drive toward woke activism (wherever it comes from) is a drive to shirk responsibility?

activism often operates as a displacement of desire. The radical energy that cannot confront capitalism — Number2018

That sounds irresponsible, or at least non- self-aware. Why can’t one confront capitalism, AND do what one desires?

activism may be both an expression of unconscious desire and an adaptive performative mechanism within the late capitalist subjectivity. — Number2018

I’m losing sight of how this is about wokeness. Instead of becoming an activist, one could become a used car and gasoline salesman as “an expression of unconscious desire and an adaptive performative mechanism within the late capitalist subjectivity.”

[woke is] critical theory or something with fairly obvious value — Baden

I don’t see the value as obvious, or at least the harm so overshadows any value I don’t see it.

Wish someone one would take up a defense of woke. Head on. What good is woke? This thread could use it.

Wisdom is always contained in a few words.
Wisdom comes upon you quickly, and completely.
Wisdom gets lost in a book or a chapter, and is more easily found in a paragraph, or a sentence, or even in a nod, or in silence.

Wisdom stands up to the rigorous interrogation of a logical analytic, as well as the practical test of the physician. (Wisdom has a practical, applicability that fits one specific circumstance, and a universality and eternity that recasts all things.)

Wisdom can come from a child, who may not know it is wisdom, though they know what the particular wisdom is about.

Wisdom is perfection, meaning, it is not only exactly what is needed, but more than what could be expected, producing fruit.