It is my understanding that life in general was impossible in the universe for the strong majority of time and will be impossible again. Maybe 0.00001% or less of time is when life can exist, and sentient life is even fewer and farther between.

Is this more an argument that sentient life is special and valuable or insignificant and an anomaly? Or neither? The universe never fails to humble us, but rarely seems to lift us up. Lol. — TiredThinker

It means absolutely nothing at all. Given infinite time, sapience will happen countless of times, That seems to make us rather insiginificant. That does not make us any less significant to ourselves though. Our knowledge of our insiginificance of a universal scale is matched by our knowledge of our significance on a particular scale.

What I'm trying to say is, sometimes, knowing is not enough to start doing. I can very well know that ghosts don't exist, yet continue being scared of them at night. — Hello Human

You can, but would that be virtuous? It hibk that in this ethical scheme the right thing to do is to try to get rid of this phobia

I should have written 'the map = territory fallacy" by which I mean idealists tendency for confusing – conflating – epistemology (i.e. what I/we know) & ontology (i.e. what there is), that is, there is not anything more than what I/we can 'experience'.

it is just that there are maps all the way down. There is no territory.
Always the Hegelian. That's the fallacy / incoherence of idealism I mean. — 180 Proof

I feel there is a kind of conundrum here. You are right, my expression leads to problems. If there are maps all the way down there is no way to tell whether one map is more accurate than another. ontology collapses into aesthetics. It is impossible to intelligibly uphold that view.

On the other hand assuming there is a territory requires a leap of faith and the assumption of an archimedic point which ultimately leads to some sort of foundationalism. Every foundation leads to problems because there is no way it reveals itself. Claims lead to counter claims. Ontology collapses into metaphysics. Maybe I should read Levinas...

Re: 'The map is the territory fallacy' (of idealism). — 180 Proof

I cannot see how from here you derive at the fallacy of idealism. What you argue is that the idea came on the scene, in a human mode...

If matter was all the hot stuff why do insects not consider the question? The map / territory distinction is not a fallacy, it is just that there are maps all the way down. There is no territory. Matter as the territory is just a figment of the imagination, aka, of thought. The question becomes, what is the most meaningful map? I am convinced it is love. In the craw feet, in the grey at her temples, in the curly hair and the girlish smile, there resides the ultimate question of metaphysics. That is not meaningless romantic twaddle, but it means metaphysics resides in 'you' rather than 'I' like Descartes, or even 'we' like Hegel, or 'he' like both religion and science hold.

I would take the opposite route from Fooloso4. Wisdom is indeed the greatest virtue because it means one can rightly assess the right mean of things. Courage is great but it means knowing the mean between cowardice and recklessness. We call someone courageous who knows this and who shows this knowledge is action. However, is it not always preferable to know the right measure of all such virtues? We call wise someone who assesses rightly in differing situation. Wisdom means assessing the right mean between extremes in general whereas courage would mean assessing the right mean in situations of conflict. The first one is more general and therefore a higher virtue.

The English translation of the poetic German is rather pathetic...

You're referring here to what he said about Christians. That tells me all I need to know about you. — Tate

Funny how taking an impersonal position on a subject, a position that was for instance also taken by John Stuart Mill to name one, immediately leads to judgments about my personal character...

I am not against the banning per se. I trust Baden's judgment, he explained it and is an excellent mod. I am also not here to make enemies. The banning of a prolific and long term poster is a cause for discussion. Not a subject to be scared of in a philosophy forum I would think.

No, we don't babysit posters. They follow the rules or they get banned. It's that simple. — Baden

With this I wholeheartedly concur.

I might well be uninformed. I do not know what you guys needed to delete. I do think that, if one causes the need for the moderators to clean up the mess every day, that itself deserves a ban.

is acceptable. If you do, please do us all a favour and leave now. — Baden

No, I do not think it is acceptable. I would support those who would speak up against it. It is also such an overt generalization, simplistic, silly, it simply refutes itself. I do think, but that is my attitude in general, that such things are better settled in debate. I do see a trend of people being overly thin skinned. I remember days gone by when Baron Max, Black Crow, Gassendi1, 180 Proof and yours truly were at each other's throat viciously. We would all be tossed out by today's standards. I am a dinosaur and I sound like one, but times really did change. I am European, used to much more rigorous prohibitions against insult and hate crimes than there are in the States, but we became much, much more sensitive today then we were some time ago. Probably a sign of a much more polarized and volatile society...

Ok see this is a good example. If you really felt that way you wouldn't have had to come up with a way to not-so-slyly call anyone who thinks the world, let alone intelligent debate, is better off without filth (not calling anyone filth just speaking about conduct and mindset) chickenshit — Outlander

Huh? I know Unenlightened, I value his contributions, I like his posts. I did not know he felt that way. I was genuinely sorry he felt intimidated, I had not guessed and it made me think... Perhaps you jump to conclusions just a tad too quickly? And honestly, your contribution does not display 'intelligent debate' in my book.

One cannot know how many contributors have been put off posting by the many gratuitous insults he made. But I know of another intelligent poster who has expressed such a sentiment as I quoted above. — unenlightened

I appreciate that... I am of the rather thick skinned school when it comes to debating. I think there is a tad too much concern for the feelings of anxiety at receiving a harsh remark, but that is me. Of course there are limits to everything and they lay differently with different people. I am sorry you felt intimidated.

hmmm, banning streetlight.... that is a controversial one to say the least. Sure he could be rough at times, but isn't the disruption he might have caused with his hard debating style offset by his very knowledgeable contributions? I would think there should be a balance struck, except maybe when in case of extreme violations. He could he rough, inflammatory, sure, but he did not cross lines of decency and criminality I would think...

"She loves me, Miss Argentina
Though she hides behind her smile
She runs free, Miss Argentina
Dripping blood
With lots of style"

The description Iggy gives of his (ex?)lover is an amazing piece of writing.

If nothing does so much for you guys, it gotta mean something right? Paradox away all you like and equate God with nothing, or nothing with being and God with being and being with nothing again, but what does such a spiral indicate? Maybe we can get all ratio-phenomenological and conclude that we have concepts that denote more than we can experience. That would then be an indication that our conceptual apparatus is somehow apart from, or over and above our experience. The concept of nothing, proves then, as does the concept of the most perfect being, the 'plenum', that there are ideas beyond the scope of our earthly existence. That God is somehow added in the mix of being an nothing, would, then, not be any coincidence.

However, as there is also the equation of God with nothing, it cannot be the JCI God, but has to be something, or nothing, utterly transcendental. Perhaps that is what those words do ey? they tell us that you are trying to speak of something one cannot speak, and as such, not describing but gesturing towards the mysical. Das Mystische zeigt sich, according to Wittgenstein. The function of purely metaphysical categories, metaphysical because they are solely abstract, 'non-physical', is to articulate our sense of wonder at the world.

The concept of ‘nothing’ ends in paradox as nothing is the absence of something and you need something to refer to the concept of ‘nothing.’ — universeness

No shit Sherlock :rofl:

If something exists, so does nothing exist. — Jackson

A 'something' in Hegel, an 'Etwas', is already a more concrete form. Pure Being and pure nothing are sublated into becoming. I am not saying this to quibble but to indicate that being and nothing does not lead to an 'existent', they lead to 'flux', however a flux requires there is something concrete that is in flux. Nothing as well as being are thought determinations. As pure abstract generalities, they do not exist. Nothing therefore does not exist at least not in its 'pure' form.

The passage you quoted does not entail that 'nothing' exists, at least not as pure nothing, perhaps best translated as 'nothingness'. What exists concretely, when opposed to 'Etwas' is 'determined nothing', bestimmtes Nichts. And bestimmtes Nichts is lack of something, at least I find that the most convincing reading of the first remark: "It is customary to oppose nothing to something. Something is however already a determinate existent that distinguishes itself from another something; consequently, the nothing which is being opposed to something is also the nothing of a certain something, a determinate nothing. Here, however, the nothing is to be taken in its indeterminate simplicity" P. 60. So I think here Hegel already backpedals on his opposition of pure nothing to something on p 59. It is often done but incorrect. Determinate being 'etwas' is opposed to determinate nothing, aka, a not something, lack of something, or void. That idea is much less forceful than pure nothingness. Nothingness is pure abstract generality, emptiness and as such the same as pure being, while also its opposite.

I did not know that debate between Heidegger and Carnap, thanks for that! I do think Heideggers 'Nichts' and Hegel's 'Nichts' are very different. In Hegel it is not really a 'something', in Heidegger it has much more of a function in and of itself. Das 'Nichts nichtet' and also serves as the backdrop I believe against which Dasein realizes itself, there Nichts is a bit akin to the fear of death. That though is memory from a long time ago....

I think the scientific method does employ 'inference,' 'rigorous conceptual analysis,' 'distinctions,' 'explicit disputation,' 'argument rebuttle,' etc. This will be based on many many, rigorously controlled
experiments, but scientists will still interpret the results gained in different ways and project implications. — universeness

Well yes, but conceptual analysis is not what natural scientists generally do. At least they do not bring it to the foreground. That generally does not hurt natural science, the scientific method was a big leap forward for the sciences. It does lead to mishap sometimes when scientists start writing about metaphysics and think it can mean anything and everything and that how it is used colloquially is of equal value as to how the concept is used in the philosophical community, like the concept of metaphysics. To illuminate that concept, the scholastic method is of more use than the scientific method.

Not 10,000 laypeople no, but perhaps you will garnish the opinion of a few of your experienced colleagues to build confidence in your own direction of thought. This is akin to the scientist trying the same experiment or different scientists trying the same experiment more than once to attempt to confirm results or find anomalies in interpretations of results already gained. — universeness

Well, I might consult them informally, indeed to garner their opinions and see if they can spot flaws in my reasoning. Asking a few learned colleagues is not a very scientific way to go about the question actually, from the point of view of the scientific method. I would not know if the answers can be extrapolated to what society generally feels if I just ask a couple of people in the same circumstances as myself. A social scientist will shoot that approach full of holes. She will tell me that to answer the question what commonly accepted conduct is in this case, you would have to leave the books and see for oneself. She would advice me to set up a survey use this case as a 'vingette' and garner the responses of a statistically valid representative sample.

A lawyer would tell me that my learned colleagues are not sources of law, although it depends a bit on how learned they are. She would advice me to take a trip to the sources of law first, legislation, case law, treaties, jurisprudence, and custom and maybe then 'the doctrine', the communis opinio of learned scholars as found in the hand books. What counts as a source of law though differs in different jurisdictions and is, on the edges still a matter of some controversy. Legislation and case law though are considered most important.

Do you think all 'philosophers,' would agree with you here? — universeness

Yes, although I do not know what you mean with 'philosophers'. Ontological questions may be metaphysical questions of course. There was once, centuries ago, a debate in metaphysics whether non material creatures, creatures of pure form could exist. I do not know anyone who does metaphysics nowadays that wonders about this question anymore. What is wondered about, is for instance the ontological proof of God, but it is a squarely logical proof, it has nothing to do with whether God is indeed a man with a long beard or something.

Which is part of our disagreement. To me, you are suggesting that insisting all knowledge and all future knowledge belongs to the label 'natural science,' is problematic and insufficient. I disagree and insist that the label 'natural' is sufficient for all knowledge that passes scientific scrutiny and any proposal or idea that does not pass such scientific scrutiny should be refused the label 'knowledge.' — universeness

That is fine but do note that you are then using your concept of natural science in a very stretched way, which leads to misunderstandings. If I say that I am a natural scientist because I am a lawyer, people look at me in a puzzled way. They would be right, law is not generally considered, nor considers itself, a natural science. Yet, me knowing that you will have to pay indemnification when you leave open a tap and it harms the goods of others, is knowledge. Legal knowledge.

Then they might make better choices in their day-to-day lives.
If we keep providing them with very bad examples of 'applied knowledge,' such as swearing to tell the truth by placing their hand on a book of fables.' Then they might feel they can waste as much water as their mood dictates, regardless of the cost to another. — universeness

I do not think so, swearing an oath does not need to be done on the bible. I once did it, just by saying 'I promise' before somebody competent to take the oath from me. I think it is also not knowledge. It is in fact a legal device, for instance you are subjected to penalty when you break a properly administered oath. It is not knowledge at all, just like saying 'I do' at your wedding ceremony is not knowledge.

They can always claim god commanded them to 'let its glorious waters flow freely into the thirsty Earth!!' Who are you to judge the will of the supernatural? Metaphysically speaking of course. — universeness

It is not a metaphysical question :) It is a legal question. If I am the judge of the case, I am competent to judge the will of the supernatural. The metaphysical question would be what grants the judge this competence. That is a question of legal metaphysics and a question of the philosophy of law.

Sounds like a valid version of the scientific method as applied in the legal profession, to me. — universeness

Ohh, no, it is everything but the scientific method. It is a version of scholasticism. I will briefly explain. To this case I would apply the standard of 'commonly expected reasonable conduct' from article 6:162 of the Dutch civil code. In a number of judgments which does not render a very clear line, but at least a reasonably one, we can deduce that one has a standard of care for other people's goods which states that if it is foreseeable, in your control and easy to fix, you are liable for damages if you did not prevent the accident from happening. Leaving a tap running foreseeably causes damages, is in your house and easy to fix without giving you any trouble. It is actually very clear cut. (it used to be different on the 1890's from which this case stems ;) )

However what I will not do to substantiate the common expected reasonable conduct norm, is to ask 10.000 people what they think in this case reasonable conduct would be, plot it in SPSS and find some sort of statistically significant number to say with confidence "this is what is commonly expected". The funny thing is we are actually only minimally interested in what is commonly expected at all. We, the legal community, the learned scholars fill in this norm.

But this is the kind of definition/application of the term 'metaphysics' that I support, although it's probably more 'metajudicial, or metajurisprudence.' I notice you didn't mention god once or any other supernatural source, that you might consult, to help you with your decision-making. — universeness

No of course. But metaphysics as a term for 'the search for the supernatural' has really nothing to do with philosophy. Whatever metaphysics is, it is not that :D What I use the example for is to show you made a metaphysical move, namely reduce all our knowledge to physical knowledge and all 'science' to the positivistic natural sciences, whereas in law we deal with a normative science (or art, the judgment is still out) which is not (and arguably cannot be) conducted with the same natural scientific concepts.

I don't see how that follows from what you describe above?
You are considering 'guidelines,' in what sense are guidelines or suggestions based on the similar experiences of other legislators not 'physical.' These other examples really happened, they are not merely based on the fabled decisions of Solomon in the old testament! or the fabled judgments of god via Moses when he came down from mount Sinai! I would be a lot more concerned for your position if they were. — universeness

Certainly they happened. But law tries to establish what the normative import of such a fact is. A left the tap open and B's goods stacked in a wherehouse below got damaged. It is a fact and I can describe exactly how the damage came about in physical terms. Nothing supernatural needed, nothing normative too. However, what I can not establish is whether we should reproach A for the fact that this state of affairs came about. The judgment that we o ultimately displays the metaphysical assumptions inherent in law, that people have a choice to open or close the tap, that if they possess a modicum of rationality, they should figure out the concsequences, that the world is not a deterministic place because otherwise it would not make sense to hold people morally culpable on normative grounds, but only on utilitarian grounds etc.

(I am indeed an asst prof of 'metajurisprudence', 'metajuridica' as we say :) )

Yet your struggle with the issue continues and you will make a decision.
This will show your brain is up to the task. Mainly because it sounds like that's what your current job is and what you are paid for. Many justice systems have appeal systems in case the judged feel utterly wronged by your decision. I am sure you can consult with the legal records of similar cases. If you are the final arbiter for your 'water tab,' case then have faith in your training. Consult and make the call!
As long as you are not relying on the supernatural to send you a decision, you will be fine. — universeness

Yes, but that one decision does not come about williy nilly. It is not solely my decision. There are procedures I follow. I check the legislation, I check jurisprudence and I read up on the opinion of the authors in cases alike. If I am feeling very meticulous I might even look up the opinions of courts in other jurisdictions. I read up on the state of the art concerning standards of care and try to gauge the meaning of the legislators behind the article at stake. I present my opinion not as my gut feeling but as informed legal judgment, the steps of which everyone can follow.

There are however metaphysical assumptions made in law. For instance that I should follow the supreme court's judgments. (Not mandatory in NL though, but still often done) That I should care about what learned scholars had to say about such a matter. That the goal of the legislator can be deduced from the parliamentary documents. Moreover law also assumes people have a choice in doing what they do and so are liable for tort when they make a choice that harms others. Those are a lot of assumptions revealing the rationalistic metaphysics behind law.

Yet... reformulating the problem in physical terms brings me nowhere. That shows that metaphysics cannot be reduced to physics. There is more to 'being' than mere particles moving about. The humanities may not be capturable in your physicalist metaphysics. That is: what a thing is, is perhaps not ultimately decided upon by the matter it is made of.

Not individually no but as a collective, yes. The full detailed neuroactivity that happens in your brain when you make a decision/ruling based on earlier information/evidence is not fully understood but it certainly does involve neurons firing and accessing information previously stored in your brain and 'processing' it using your previously developed reasoning techniques.
Computers are mimicries of the human brain and computers contain operating system software as well as application software. In computing science, we call the equivalent software contained in the human brain, 'wetware.' — universeness

It is all well and good but it still does not solve my case on the water tab, collectively or individually. Those reasoning techniques are also not individually developed but collectively. Such knowledge of the brain may have an impact on law, but they do not prescribe what the impact should be. That is again a matter for a normative science to deal with. The physicalist reduction simply does not help me.

To be fair, it is part of the common meaning of "metaphysics." It goes back to what you said about the word being overburdened. — Clarky

I do not know by whom it is used for the supernatural... in popular tv shows maybe... Sure metaphysics studies the nature of reality and therefore also the existence or non existence of God. It has studied angels... but that is something else than witchcraft or ghostbusting.

Legal knowledge is a product of human endeavours. It what way is legal knowledge not part of the physical world? All human thoughts are products of physical brains! — universeness

Well yes, but knowing that brain activity is neurons firing and all kinds of cellular activity simply does not tell me whether I should rule that Mrs S needs to compensate Mr P for the damages she has caused by leaving a tab running.

If you have a counter-source, I'm interested. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Hmmm, I always learned it that way and accepted it as a given it seems. I must have gotten it from somewhere because I was quite certain, but well pssible you are right. I thought they were the two branches of metaphysics. Maybe it is Collingwood actually. It does not make much of a difference to me though. Let's treat them as separate then...

Epistemology is usually classified as a sub branch of metaphysics. Metaphysics includes the nature of reality, ontology and the nature of knowledge, epistemology.

The scientific method is epistemology. Epistemology is often included within metaphysics. I believe that's appropriate. — Clarky

Well, I side here with the people that make a distinction. Methodology, is the way one gets results i.e. the way one goes about investigating. Epistemology concerns the question what we may know and what the appropriate standards for knowledge are. It is quibbling, but I think there is a point to it. The scientific method is predicated on an epistemology, namely that by empirical demonstration one may come to knowledge. This is contrary to for instance the scholastic method that tells us that one comes to knowledge by referring to credible sources of knowledge, the revered scholars or religious leaders.

I think different methodologies may rest on the same epistemology, for instance qualitative and quantitative methodologies might both rest on an empiricist epistemology. I also wonder if 'the scientific method' as is often mentioned on this forum actually exists as such. It seems to me to be a cluster of research methodologies, based on empiricist empistemology and perhaps heeding Popper's methodological constraints.

Science describes physicality, the movement of particles. It is descriptive. It does not say why or if those movements are meaningful. — Jackson

No it does not, but it does not describe just willy-nilly. It is guided by questions that are considered to be important questions, that is the point. That is why it is not fundamental.

So why combine them? Is that not like saying metadata has nothing to do with data or metacognition has nothing to do with cognition? I think the scientific method employed by physics is fundamental as the most reliable way of pursuing new knowledge and testing its validity. — universeness

The scientific method employed by physics is perhaps the most reliable way of pursuing new knowledge of the natural world, but I would not call it fundamental. It rests on the questions that are considered meaningful. Your post for instance contains hidden assumptions, for instance you equate knowledge with the physical world. However when I want to enlarge my legal knowledge, physics does not bring me much. I have nothing against physics, but it rests on what one might call an economy of truth, a field of assumptions about what is worth knowing, what 'knowledge' is like and how knowledge should be tested. Those assumptions are metaphysical.

This is the problem with the physicalist approach. When adhered to, it leads to some form of panpsychism by logical necessity, because ultimately, matter cannot be given logical priority. But placing the principles of life, experience, consciousness, intention, as inherent within matter leaves them as fundamentally unintelligible because "matter" is the concept devised by Aristotle to account for the reality of the unintelligible aspect of the universe. So consciousness is rendered as unintelligible in this way. — Metaphysician Undercover

Great post. Indeed.

Posted double

↪Xtrix

Censors throughout history have pretended words have the sorts of causal effects you pretend they do, and used it as justification to murder and maim. It’s no surprise you are of that ilk.

↪Tobias

If I was a lawyer I wouldn’t show my face, especially with any sort of pride. — NOS4A2

Yes, the question is, why not? Lawyers act as a bulwark against state power, one of the very few we have. They are generally opposed to censorship as it deprives lawyers of the information they need to accurately defend or judge their case. Especially a libertarian or a conservative, like Antonin Scalia was, should favor the law. You are neither, I guess you are a populist for lack of a better word. You seem to hold on to the maxim "what my gut feeling says is the truth, is the truth". That mentality leads to the same censorship and the perversion of justice you criticize.

I picture NOS in court as a defense attorney in a war crime trial.

Prosecutor: Did your client order his troops to train their guns on the innocent villagers and did he then utter the words "Shoot! and spare no one"?
Attorney: Yes he did, that is exactly what he said.
Pro: So, your client is ready to rescind his not-guilty plea is he then?
Attorney: Oh, no on the contrary! My client wishes to join the families of the victims in asking for indemnification from the soldiers! Yes, he uttered those words, but how could he foresee that these depraved men would actually train their guns on the innocent villagers and shoot them, sparing no one? If we look at it from an energy perspective, the amount of energy dissipated is similar to saying "Give each other a group hug!". My client relied on the good sense of his soldiers, but became bitterly disappointed in them, bitterly your honor! Those sound waves themselves do not do anything, they are interpreted by the men in question and they did interpret his sounds in the most heinous of ways. Obviously my client simply needed not imagine words could have the influence to cause otherwise upright men do such a thing! Acquittal I say, Not guilty I say. Do make sure you proclaim your not guilty verdict loudly your honor, especially the 'not' part. Otherwise, the similarity in energy is just too big. Those words get misinterpreted and who knows what might happen. My client has suffered enough from this kind of mishap as it is!

Guys, if you ever have a bad run in with the law. Do not consider NOS as your defense attorney. I do hope these words manage to reach you well, because after all they are just blots of ink, stimulating your retina... maybe you interpret those words as "please hire NOS"... We just learned that what words mean and do is solely up to your discretion my dear readers.

I guess it’s a good thing I don’t respect your opinion. — NOS4A2

That really made me laugh! :rofl: See, NOS, words do do something after all! :party:

All that soundwaves trigger is the delicate biology of the inner ear. After transduction it’s all you. The biology—you—does all the work. It causes your hearing; and if any aspect of the biology is messed up along the way, it doesn’t. — NOS4A2

Yep, so there is no crime of instigation or conspiracy. A totally new take on criminal law by none other than our very own NOS4A2.

People act upon words. We hear them, read them, learn them, write them, speak them, use them. They do not affect us more than any other sound from the mouth or any other scribble on paper because they are hardly different in physical constitution and energy. — NOS4A2

Hmm, if it is all energy, then why do different words do different things? Hell even the same word does different things depending on context. The yes in respect to the question "does it rain now", is a very different yes from the 'yes' in response to 'will you marry me?'. It is not only legally bollocks it is philosophically quite untenable too. I should not be surprised though.

↪Tobias While one might be hopeful, my suspicion is that there is a tendency for much of what is considered nowadays as "metaphysics", to be little more than physics without the maths - that is, not physics. If one were generous one might call it speculative physics, but more often it is nonsense physics.

We see the detritus of this tendency in the many "physicists" who kindly drop in here to "fix" philosophy. — Banno

As I said before, for me, reality is puppies and chocolate chip cookies, not essences and properties. That isn't to say I don't believe what physicists say about what happens at subatomic scale, just that it isn't sensible to think that's all there is to reality. — Clarky

I agree, but neither is puppies and chocolate chip cookies. At least, not when one is asking metaphysical questions. When you eat the chocolate chip cookie for instance one might ask when the chocolate chip cookie ceased to be, or whether there is something of the cookie remaining even after eating it, or whether there is something that chocolate chip cookies and puppies have in common. We are very much on the same page I think. Indeed I too hold that it is silly to elevate what physicists say as the whole of reality. Metaphysics is a bit of a rabbit hole.

But intentionality, aboutness, embodiment, what-is-it-like, qualia; is completely different than the language I use when I talk about my own or other people's experience gained through introspection or empathy. — Clarky

Yeah, but that is just jargon. I can deal will aboutness, embodiment etc. but I am lost when it comes to qualia. Jargon is just a tool, right a short hand. Heidegger started to write his own when he found the jargon of his day lacking. Now what he wrote in turn became jargon. There is nothing more irritating than people spouting jargon at each other and I do not think that one cannot do phenomenology when one is lacking in jargon.

I'm with Collingwood - metaphysics has no and makes no truth claims. — Clarky

I am very much with Collingwood too.



I am not 'hopeful' or 'hopeless'. I am actually rather feeling anxious. This new materialist metaphysics seems to bracket any form of identification in favour of some form of existence in 'thousand plateaus' where we extend in rhizomic ways. The subject must be decentered and they see in the metaphysics of the past (subject and object, master / slave) an enormous potential for violence. I see in their type of thinking an enormous potential for violence too. Two days ago I argued for the necessity of an 'idealist moment', a moment of self overcoming in the sense that we need not be content with a description of ourselves as essentially an assemblage of things without rhyme or reason.

This is what I find troublesome. To me, reality can only sensibly be what normal humans interact with on a day to day basis. What a few scientists and philosophers know or believe doesn't change the essence of reality. It would be absurd to say that reality is somehow inaccessible to most people. — Clarky

Welcome to the phenomenological school of thought! ;) I am not sure though. We do not interact with the ground structure of reality of a day to day basis. At least even us do not consider being, nothngness, essences and properties as our daily fare. I tend to look at this sort of questions historically and I think we are in an epoch in which our metaphysics is indeed changing. Just like the metaphysics of the middle ages held that the truly real was a transcendental power that is infinitely above us and barely comprehensible, we may soon hold that the truly real is an immanent power (nature) that is infinitely stronger and richer than we may fathom and who's workings are purposive but ultimately ineluctable to us puny and destructive humans. I am an anti-metaphysical metaphysician though. Ultimately all such truth claims are speculative and the only thing we can do is trace the historical, social and political processes of their emergence. In that sense I still hold on to the Kantian admonition that we cannot know the thing in itself, we can however trace the historical movement its conceptualization and re-conceptualization (Hegel, maybe Rorty)

I think maybe we do disagree. For me, the ontological nature of reality is a presupposition. — Clarky

I agree... so I truly do not think we disagree, but hey, it needs two to agree, so if you still disagree, then we disagree! :D

That's fine, as long as we recognize that use of "entanglement" in any context beyond quantum mechanics is metaphorical and not literal. Quantum mechanics does not manifest at human-scale. — Clarky

Well, the 'new materialists' are concerned with 'more than human worlds'. It is actually about decentering human experience and human agency from metaphysics. The term purports to do exactly what you intuit, postulate that what occurs on a different scale than that of humans, is what is actual. I do agree with you though, in a human context - and metaphysics in my view happens to be a human endeavour - it can only be metaphorical. That is exactly my critique, the mistakes the metaphorical for the real and jump from the level of presuppositions to the ontological nature of reality. We are not in disagreement.

Entanglement itself is a physical, not a metaphysical, phenomenon. Metaphysics is how we look at things, not what we see. I have thought about what changes in metaphysics are required in order to deal with quantum mechanical phenomena. I don't know the answer. — Clarky

We do not see the entanglement of existence. It is a judgment about what the real looks like; a conceptualization about the whole of existence is metaphysical. Those concepts might be derived from empirical sciences, but if employed to describe what 'existence' itself is, they are put to metaphysical use.

I am actually wondering if we are not seeing a new metaphysical turn. One indeed based around 'Quantum entanglement'. At least I discussed a book today that almost started from the proposition that 'existence is entangled'. It referred to 'the ontological turn' in philosophy. I do not know enough about it, I am curious but I am also skeptical. This new metaphysics seems to forego any phenomenological analysis of actual existence and offers a third person account of matter in motion. I believe it misses something, but I really need to delve deeper into it. I am not in favor of eliminating metaphysics, however I do get to see the possibility that ethics precedes metaphysics, in that one's ethical commitment seem now to determine one's metaphysics. They were of course always... entangled.

Nice one 180 proof. I never listened to it from that angle, but indeed. It makes me think of an interesting quasi theological concept: parousia, an always present manifestation of the divine. Which I would explain immanently as the feeling of being in love or of longing for a certain someone. Our metaphysics is built on the experience of a concrete other.

Essential is both scientific thinking and good moral judgment that is based on knowing truth, universal/nature's laws, and good manners. This is not materialistic but intellectual and that is the pursuit of happiness. It is the path to raising our human potential and it is worth defending. The men who understood this ended our relationship with monarchy and the Biblical kingdom of kings, subjects, and slaves. Technology can greatly benefit us or put us back to being subjects.
I am saying education for technology is making us subjects rather than free citizens. Education for technology has always been the education of slaves. Liberal education is for free men. — Athena

Essentially I agree with you. I see a number of tenets in your post that would be important when we want to change things, please correct and me and fill in the list further:
1. The focus on technology should make way for ctizenship and reflection
2. The ideals should be democratic and inclusive
3. The teaching should be secular, though good manners and love for other should be instilled
4. intellectual progress should be emphasized over material progress
5. Virtue should be taught like in ancient Athens but without institutions like slavery.

This is what I got from your posts on the subject. I agree with this general inventory, but there are a number of questions and tensions that needs to be resolved.

1. Contrary to Europe the US could do without education for technology. People could live of the land as there was plenty. Europe was a continent densely populated with warring states vying for dominance. Now, also in the US let alone in Europe it is not possible to live of the land. Neither are people satisfied anymore working on conveyor belts in taylorist and Fordist fashion. Technology is needed to make modern urbanized society function and maintain the level of wealth people are accustomed to. So what would be the role of technological education in the reformed education system?

2. The cultural model is still very Western oriented and also rather idealized Western. It refers back to the Greek times like we imagine them to be. However we live in a pluriform society now. How do we incorporate African, Asian, Islamic and native American traditions in an education system that is inclusive an democratic.

3. What is the relationship between community an independency/ autonomy? The ethical outlook you describe to me makes me think of American values as independence and autonomy, providing aid to each other in the spirit of fellow travelers on a road to prosperity. That image is appealing but in our densely populated cities with high crime and poverty rates, a sense of community is necessary. How and to what extent do we incorporate that?

4. intellectual progress should be valued higher than material progress, but there are many people in dire material circumstances. The intellectual can only thrive when material needs are met. Moreover in our current day and age, material gains a seen as a measure for success. What measures for success might be adopted and will have an appeal to compete with material wealth?

5. What virtues should be taught. You refer to Aristotle, but Aristotle defended slavery and the subjugation of women. That has of course for a large extent to do with the age in which he lived. However, his philosophy tends to favor a certain style of dominance. He emphasized the active formative principle, over the passive material principle. Form determined matter. That division can still be seen today in how we deal with nature with nature for instance, leading perhaps to 'education for technology' . Moreover, earthliness and femininity were over the ages considered as connected, leading to the skewed vision of men being rational and in charge and women in the care of the household and fertility. We can therefore not simply copy Aristotle's virtues. What virtues do we teach?

Those are some consideration I have when reading your ideas. It is not meant as criticism of them, but to chart out some avenues to take them further and make them more concrete.