You've lost me. Care to explain what you're asking?

What you say makes sense, and was what I was expecting you to say. But I'm thinking, we know a) it is possible for something that is immaterial to be organized, and b) the material that the immaterial caused is organized. Don't these two things present a good case for thinking the immaterial that caused the material was, itself, organized? — Patterner

No, I do not agree. "Organized" is the outcome, the effect. It does not make sense to use the same word to describe the cause, as is used to describe the effect. This tends toward annihilating the separation, or distinction between the two, making them one and the same thing.

That is the problem I referred to above, what happens when we describe the immaterial in words which are used to describe material things. "Immaterial" is distinctly not material. So describing the immaterial with the same words that we use to describe the material, cannot be correct. That is what has happened to quantum physics. If "the wave function" refers to something immaterial, and "the particle" refers to something material, then when they start describing "particles" as a feature of the wave function they come up with something incoherent.

So I can question the truth of "a) it is possible for something that is immaterial to be organized". Depending on how we relate "immaterial" to "material" it may not be possible for the immaterial to be organized. If we say that the two are absolutely opposite, then clearly it would not be possible for the two to have any shared properties. But that is rather extreme, and it is representative of the interaction problem. For example, temporal and eternal are absolutely opposite.

So the better way is to make them separate categories. As separate categories they might share some properties, and this allows for "a) it is possible for something that is immaterial to be organized". However, b) fails to make the case. That the effect is organized, does not provide the logical necessity required to conclude that it is likely that the cause is organized. We must not allow ourselves to get trapped in this type of word usage because it can be very misleading

I doesn't imply that at all. Motivation is not important in FC. — Dan

Motivation is a large aspect of "one's mind". If it is not important to FC, then your principle, "one's own choice", defined by you as a choice concerning one's own mind, body, and property is not consistent with FC.

It isn't my definition. It is your definition. Again I did not define it this way. I am not overriding anything, I was never suggesting that anything you do that in some way involves your mind, body, and property is your choice. I was suggesting that you get to choose what happens with your own mind, body, and property, and not what happens to the minds, bodies, and property of others. — Dan

You are changing the goal post. You spoke about protecting a person's ability to make one's own choices. When I suggest that stealing your car is a choice I might make, you said it is not my own choice to make, because it concerns your property. Then you defined "one's own choice" as a choice about what to do with one's own mind, body, and property.

Now you have turned things completely around, saying "you get to choose what happens...and not what happens to...". You are now not talking about "one's own choice" in any stretch of the imagination. You are now telling everyone what they must and must not choose, so you are imposing your own choice onto the minds of others, "you get to choose...". How could this be a choice which belongs to you, to impose such restrictions on the choices of others?

There are quite a few effects on one's mind that one could have which would be morally relevant. But someone being upset is not one of them. — Dan

As discussed, I strongly disagree with this. And it is things like this, and your complete disrespect for conventional moral philosophy, (saying that it is wrong), which make me realize that you truly are way off track.

I'm not talking about the act of putting marbles into a jar. I'm talking about the marbles are stacked up in an organized way. There's no organizer that stacked up the marbles on top of each other so that they'll stacked up in an organized manner. — night912

You are not making sense. If the marbles are in a jar, and you are talking about whether or not there is an organizer who cause them to be in this position, then obviously we must look at "the act of putting marbles into a jar". Or, are you assuming that they've been in that position forever?

Why are immaterial things we deal with all the time that are organized not relevant? Logic and mathematics, for example. — Patterner

This is why the subject is difficult. I believe that if we adhere to a strict definition of "immaterial", and do a thorough analysis of these examples, logic and mathematics, we will find that they are not actually immaterial things. All sorts of logic and mathematics rely on symbols, and symbols are not immaterial. What I think, is that in reality, the purely immaterial does not actually enter into what we call "our experience", or "our consciousness". The purely immaterial has a causal relation to what is consciously present to us, but it is not actually present within the content of our consciousness. What is present within our conscious experience is already a unified material/immaterial dualism, (Aristotelian matter/form), and this is due to the living being's dependence on a body.

So, this is why there is so much disagreement amongst different people, as to whether or not the immaterial is real, and even amongst those who believe it is real, as to how, or what type of existence it has. We only know about the reality of the immaterial through the dual nature (dualist representations) of what is present to us. This is not a pure "immaterial" existence because it is already contaminated by material aspects, so the dual nature of things serves only to demonstrate to us, the reality of the immaterial, but the purely "immaterial" remains unrevealed to us. This is what Aquinas says about God, we know God through His effects, but so long as the human being remains united to a body [and its intellect relies on that body] the human being can never truly know God, as purely immaterial.

Aristotle took up a related issue with the Pythagorean idealists, and certain "Platonists". There had been proposed a divine realm, of eternal circles of the heavenly bodies. The heavens were considered to be aethereal, divine, and eternal. Aristotle showed in "On The Heavens", that a circular motion necessarily involves something moving in that motion, and this thing moving in the circular motion must be material, bodily, and therefore not eternal. Then, in "On the Soul", he criticized these same idealists for saying that the soul, and intellect are immaterial and eternal, but they provide a representation of the soul (eternal circles) which include material aspects.

This is the problem we have with "the immaterial". We have very good evidence and logic to support the reality of the immaterial. However, whenever we produce representations of how the immaterial works within the material world, we assume material elements within our models of the immaterial. This is because that is how the immaterial appears to us, in the combined form of hylomorphism. And if we try to distance the immaterial from the material, we end up with the interaction problem. The subject is extremely difficult, and many are inclined to dismiss the reality of the immaterial altogether, and happily live in Plato's cave of denial. The fact is that we do not well enough understand the nature of time, to properly model the role of the immaterial within our world.

I thought I understood. But I had a typo. I meant "immaterial." I just wanted to verify that you are saying only material things can be organized. — Patterner

That is what I meant. I don't see how we could assign any type of order to something which is completely immaterial. It's a difficult subject to discuss though

the point was that mind is temporal/process-like, come and go, occurs, is interruptible, has a more clear temporal demarcation than spatial, ... Where does intelligence fit in? — jorndoe

My point was that being-like, or static-like, is just as much temporal as process-like is. But both involve spatial and temporal aspects. So I do not agree that "process-like" has "a more clear temporal demarcation than spatial". Spatial elements are just as necessary to "process" as temporal elements are.

Evenly sized marbles inside a jar are organizedly stacked on top of each other, but there is/was no organizer that stacked up those marbles on top of each other. — night912

What do you mean? How did the marbles get into the jar? Isn't putting marbles into a jar an act of organizing them?

I do not think that the "spatial/object-like", " temporal/process-like" distinction is very useful in this context. The issue is that "object" itself implies a temporal duration, a temporal continuity of sameness. To be an "object" is to have a temporal duration. This means that within the proposed concept "spatial/object-like", there is already an implied temporal dependence. The distinction then is reduced to sameness over duration, and change over duration.

Both of these have a temporal aspect, "duration", and a spatial aspect, "same" in one case, "difference" in the other case. "Simultaneity" is a more complex temporal conception, because it is a comparison. This means that there is a necessity of more than one "duration" involved in "simultaneity". And, since temporal duration is already qualified in two distinct ways, sameness over time, and difference over time, "simultaneity" becomes very difficult to grasp. To simplify "simultaneity", and make it a useful concept, we assume "a point in time", and designate the "state-of-being" at that point. All things within that "state-of-being" are simultaneous, as being "at the same time".

Mind isn't in atemporal's vocabulary. If you're talking atemporal, then you're not talking sentience; if you're talking sentience, then you're not talking atemporal. Isn't intelligence something that mind can do (or possess, be capable of)? — jorndoe

The "point in time", is the basis of the concept of "atemporality". "Time" in its natural existence, as what is passing, (secondary sense, in the prior post), is continuous. The imposition of "a point" is artificial, and since time is not passing at the point, the point is atemporal. This make "simultaneity", and all of the other conceptions which rely on a "point in time" fundamentally atemporal.

So, I don't know what you mean here with "Mind isn't in atemporal's vocabulary". The inverse is what is the case, "atemporal is in mind's vocabulary". It doesn't even make sense to attribute vocabulary to atemporal, rather than to mind, so this paragraph appears extremely confused.

Material things cannot be organized? — Patterner

I suggest you reread that. I said "organized" refers to material things. The cause of existence of material things is cannot be material (is immaterial) and therefore cannot be called "organized". "Organized" refers to a spatial ordering, a concept which cannot be applied to the immaterial.

Sure, not very useful until well defined. Still, I don't see how you could not be talking about an uncaused cause. Immaterial and uncaused. No? — Patterner

This is a complex issue due to the difference in types of causation. "Efficient cause" refers to physical activities and how they produce effects. If we assume a chain of efficient causes, in time, and look backward in time some will conclude that there is a need for a "first cause". The "first cause" would necessarily be an "uncaused cause" if we maintain consistency in the meaning of "cause", as efficient cause. However, since there are other senses of "cause", such as "final cause", we can say that the "first [efficient] cause" was caused by a different type of cause, i.e. final cause.

This is the way that we understand free will causation. A free will choice sets up a chain of efficient causes designed to produce the desired end. There is a beginning (or end, looking backward in time) to that chain of efficient causes, which we know as the "final cause". The final cause is the intention of the intentional being, the end which is aimed at.

Is the agent not organized, therefore needing it's own agent/organizer? — Patterner

"Organized" refers to material existents. The term therefore is not applicable to the cause of material existence which, being prior to material existence, is necessarily immaterial. And the terminology of "uncaused cause" is not very useful unless well defined, due to the multitude of distinct ways that "cause" is used.

The problem with the question as posed in the thread title, is that ‘pre-existing’ is a temporal description, referring to something that existed before everything else existed in time. Whereas classical theism, as a model, has the ‘ground of being’ as omnipresent and eternal, meaning, outside of time altogether. It’s ‘before’ the existing world not in the sense of temporal order, but in terms of ontological priority as first principle or ground of being. — Wayfarer

There is a relatively simple way around this problem. First, the recognition that "eternal" in classical theism means "outside of time", as you state. Second, we recognize that "time" in the conventional conception is derived from change. "Time" is a concept abstracted from observations of material, or physical, change. As such, the concept "time" is dependent on physical change. This places the eternal, as outside of this conception of time, which is an abstraction produced from, and dependent on, change. That conception of time is the one which Aristotle described in his Physics as the principal meaning for "time", a number which is the measure of change.

However, Aristotle also described a secondary meaning for "time", as something which is measured. This is what we know, and experience as the passing of time. It is what we measure by keeping track of the sun and moon, or the oscillations of a cesium atom.

So in the primary sense of "time", the clock gives us seconds and minutes, and we apply this to perform measurements of change. In the secondary sense of "time", there is a real aspect of nature, which we measure as the passing of time, with the use of observations, or a tool, the clock.

In the secondary sense, the logical priority of the relation between change and time, is reversed from the primary sense. In the primary sense, "time" as the abstraction is logically dependent on the existence of change. In the secondary sense, change, as the activities of physical things, is dependent on the existence of time. The passing of time is logically necessary for physical change to occur.

Now when we understand "time" in the secondary sense, we allow for the possibility of time passing with no physical change occurring, because time is necessary for change, but change is not necessary for time, due to the logical priority of time. This allows for the reality of activity (activity logically requires the passing of time, secondary sense), which is outside of "time" in the primary sense. That is the actuality of the immaterial. Simply put, it is the restriction of the meaning of "time" to the conventional conception of "time", as tied to, or dependent on, physical change, which drives the need to assume an actuality which is "outside of time. When the conception of "time" is rectified to allow for an actuality which is truly immaterial, transcending material change, then we no longer need to think of this actuality as "eternal". It is now within the reality of "time" in the secondary sense, but transcending material change.

It's called "logic", from basic premises which are very well supported by empirical evidence.. Here, look at my first post on this thread, for a start. We can use that as the basis for discussion if you are interested.

The argument from Aristotle is that a body is an organized existence, and an agent is required for any type of organization, as the organizer. Therefore the agent as organizer, is prior in time to the existence of the body. Of course abiogenesis is the basis for a denial of the secondary premise, but as the op points out, it's not a justified denial. — Metaphysician Undercover

I am demonstrating "being an asshole" by flagging this thread to be put in the lounge.

I'm not jumping on board for any hypothesis or theory of how non-living matter became living, because, even though we can stack the deck any way we want, we haven't managed it. — Patterner

Your phrasing ("how non-living matter became living") betrays an underlying misunderstanding of the problem. Classical ontology premises immaterial Forms which are prior to, and the cause of material existence. In this ontology, there is no issue of non-living matter becoming living matter, there is an immaterial form of life, which became a material form of life.

So your phrasing, instead of questioning whether immaterial forms became material forms, or, non-living matter became living matter, already excludes the former, and assumes the latter as a starting point. However, there is no science which supports this exclusion.

Now I've challenged you to come up with some other kind of purported knowledge, and to explain how it is that you know that it is knowledge. — Janus

I've been trying to tell you that this is an extremely unproductive restriction to place on "knowledge". The criteria you suggest, that one must know how one knows what one knows, in order for the person to "know" what one knows, is completely unrealistic. People know all sorts of things without any idea as to how they know them. That is what Socrates demonstrated. He went to all sorts of people with different types of knowledge, and requested of them, that they demonstrate how they know what they know. He stumped them all, in every field he approached. That is a fundamental and also very important aspect of "knowledge", which one must understand, in order to understand the nature of knowledge.

Knowing is clearly prior to knowing how we know, as the temporal priority demonstrates that it is impossible to know how we know prior to knowing. Therefore to dismiss knowledge, just because the person does not know how they know what they know, or to insist that they must know how they know, in order for that knowledge to be relevant, is an illogical thing for you to do.

The fact is, that no one truly knows how they know what they know. Your claims that we can easily explain how we know some types of things, is completely false, stemming from a confidence induced illusion. For example, claiming "I witnessed X" in no way explains how you know X. This is because "witnessed" does not equate with "know". And, in the case of logic and mathematics, epistemologists really cannot say how logic works. How do you know that 2+2=4? Is it because your teacher said so? Proofs serve no purpose here because they do not demonstrate that one knows how the proof proves.

You’re misconstruing what abiogenesis is, it is the emergence of life from non-life via natural processes not spontaneous generation. Therefore it remains a valid hypothesis though it may not have all the answers we are looking for. — kindred

If it was an actual hypothesis, then those "natural processes" which account for the emergence of life from non-life would be named, and the hypothesis could be tested. But there is no named natural processes which are hypothesized to lead to from non-life to life, and no real hypothesis. Instead it is assumed that life just sprang into existence, through some sort of spontaneous generation.

What hypothesis of the origin of life is better than abiogenesis? Genuinely asking, — Patterner

As far as I'm concerned, any hypothesis about the origin of life on earth is better than abiogenesis, because abiogenesis is really nothing other than the lack of an hypothesis. It basically says that since we have no idea where life came from, or how life came about, let's just assume that it sprang from nothing (spontaneous generation). See, it's really a lack of hypothesis, more than anything else. The flying spaghetti monster is a better hypothesis, because at least it hypothesizes something

No, I apply the word 'knowledge' only to those cases where we can clearly explain how it is that we know. It is obvious that we know things propositionally via observation and via logic. If you can point to another mode of knowing (other than know-how and the knowing of acquaintance or recognition, because those are not the subjects at issue) then do so. — Janus

Propositional knowledge is a form of know-how. So your dismissal of "know-how" is unjustified. And, as I said, you want to reduce "knowledge" in general, (which would include all forms of know-how) to one specific type, knowing how to explain things through the use of propositions, to serve your purpose. That's not productive, we need to go the other way, to see what all the different types of knowledge have in common, if we want to understand "knowledge".

You are confusing the motivation for the act with the act itself. Your stealing my car is very much about what happens to my car. — Dan

Your principle, "one's own choice" states that the choice concerns one's own mind, body, and property. This implies that the motivation for the act, as that which concerns one's "mind" is just as much a determining factor as one's property. The car thief uses one's own mind, one's own body, and one's own tools, to achieve one's own ends. As I said, most all choices ought to be considered "one's own choices", by the dictates of your primary definition.

However, you do not accept your own definition. You realize that such a definition would require a multitude of exceptions to produce the result which you desire. The example above, of a thief using one's own tools, is one such exception. This is because 'what you desire', is to make how one's own choice affects other people, as the true defining feature of what constitute "one's own choice". So, when I make my own choice (according to your definition), to use my own mind, body, and property, to steal your car, you override your definition, to produce a new defining feature, how one's own choice affects the ability of another to make one's own choice. Accordingly, this overriding definition becomes the true definition which you utilize. The definition of "one's own choice" is no longer a choice which concerns ones' own mind, body, and property, it is now, "a choice which does not limit the ability of another to make one's own choice". However, this new definition suffers the problem of being self-referential.

Furthermore, you then place undue restrictions on your judgement as to which ways that one's choice affects others, are to be prioritized, to match the prejudice of your preference. You dismiss affects on one's mind as not morally relevant, and emphasize affects one one's property, as morally relevant. So your guiding principle of "one's own mind, body, and property" is thrown right out the window. It is now replace with how one's choice affects another's property, body sometimes, and never the affects on one's mind. Affects to one's mind being dismissed as not morally relevant.

Abiogenesis is simply a theory of how life came from non-life, what’s woo-woo about that ? It’s just a word for a type of process(es) that occurred 3.5 billions of years ago during the inception of life. How can it be supported by science when we’re not privy to the conditions and events that transformed non living matter to living one 3.5 billions of years ago. — kindred

In my understanding "woo-woo" means unscientific. A theory, such as abiogenesis, which is completely unsupported by any science, is, by that definition, woo-woo.

You may dismiss it as woo-woo but it still remains a valid theory... — kindred

Right, it's valid as "a theory", just not valid as a "scientific theory". Therefore we may, and ought to, dismiss it as woo-woo.

Anyway, know-how has not been the focus of my part in the discussion, but rather 'knowing that' or what is called 'propositional knowledge'. We can warrant that we know things via empirical observation and logic. We cannot warrant that we know anything propositional in any other way I can think of. If you can think of an example that involves and demonstrates another way of knowing-that then why not present it for scrutiny? — Janus

See, this is a very clear example of exactly the epistemological problem I pointed to. You narrow down the definition of "knowledge", to make the word refer only to one specific type of what is commonly called "knowledge", to produce an argument which supports your prejudice. That is what Wittgenstein, in the Philosophical Investigations, called creating boundaries in the use of a word, for a purpose. As I said, it's "super unproductive" in a philosophical argument, because it's nothing other than the fallacy of begging the question.

Thanks wonderer that makes more sense, although abiogenesis is unsatisfactory at this time in terms of providing answers or conclusive explanation of how non-life to life happened it at least gives us something to work on. — kindred

The point though, is that as an hypothesis, it has been around for quite some time, and as your quoted paragraph indicates, scientists have been unsuccessful in their attempts to provide the science required to support it. Failure to prove an hypothesis, after many attempts, is evidence that the hypothesis is incorrect. Compare abiogenesis with the concept of "spontaneous generation". This was once a very popular hypothesis, which scientists failed to prove. It is through recognition that the pervading hypothesis is incorrect, and through examining the evidence of those failures, that we move along to better hypothesis.

When someone such as yourself claims that abiogenesis is how life came about, that is nothing but woo-woo. Then to add that it\s a scientific theory, is nothing but to use falsity to support your woo-woo. It is not a scientific theory because it is not supported by science, meaning it is not supported by empirical evidence. That there are scientists who have sought to support abiogenesis with science, but have proven to be unsuccessful, is simply evidence that abiogenesis is nothing but woo-woo.

Slime molds arguably have know-how. — Janus

OK, so you support what I said then. Your use of "arguably" indicates exactly my point, we really have no consensus on what warrants "knowing".

The burden would be on you to explain how such claims to knowledge could possibly be warranted. — Janus

Why ask me this? I am the one claiming that we cannot answer the question of what warrants "knowing". I'll repeat myself:

From my perspective no one can ever answer the question of what it is about any experience which warrants calling it "knowing", so this comment is super unproductive. — Metaphysician Undercover

ave correctly said that the poster is ignorant and confused about mathematics. — TonesInDeepFreeze

MO of the supreme sophist, Tones in the Deep Freeze.

Notice the paragraph says "aims", "attempts", and concludes with "Any successful theory of abiogenesis must explain the origins and interactions of these classes of molecules". The point very clearly made is that there is no successful theory of abiogenesis. Therefore it's nothing but "woo-woo".

It's not science. Science is supported by empirical evidence. It's just woo-woo magical thinking.

Yes we don’t but we’ve given that process a name called Abiogenesis, the alternative would be woo-woo as to how life came about and we don’t want that. — kindred

Actually, abiogenesis is what is best described as "woo-woo".

It is not hard to say what warrants as knowledge the basic forms of knowing—about what it is that we experience, the empirical and what is self-evident to us, the logical. Know-how is also easy to demonstrate. — Janus

You can make such statements all you want, but it doesn't resolve the problem. It just indicates that you have a hard and fast prejudice as to what qualifies as "knowledge". Does a slime mold have "knowledge" for example?

I'm fairly sure I didn't propose any of that. I think I pointed out that choosing to steal my car is a choice of what to do with my car, not your body. It's a choice that belongs to me, not you. — Dan

We're very far apart on this. What I pointed out to you, is that to steal your car is a choice of what I want to do with my own body. That it is your car being stolen, is completely accidental. I want to get myself from A to B, so I grab a car, or I want to make some quick cash, so I grab a car, and sell it. Whatever the case, what I want, and what I am doing with my own body, is the primary motivation here. Theft is fundamentally a selfish act. That it is your car which enters into my plans and not some other thing, or things, is purely accidental. There is no essential relation between my choice and your car, so my choice to steal your car is not at all "about your car", it is about my own selfish wants and desires, what I want, for myself. The choice shows complete disregard for you and your property, rather than your representation of it, as a choice about what to do with your property.

I have of course considered that I might be wrong, but I think we have good reason to think this is our current best bet. Certainly you misunderstanding me is not good reason for me to change my mind. — Dan

You are simply in denial, refusing to accept that I completely understand you, after weeks of quizzing you, but I also completely disagree with you. You have demonstrated very clearly that the concept of "one's own choice" which you propose, cannot be made to be coherent. That you insist it to be coherent, when I've demonstrated its incoherency, shows not a misunderstanding on my part, but denial on your part.

And I don't know if I agree that such insights are 'unique' in the sense of only pertaining to one individual. — Wayfarer

Here is another way of looking at the difference between subjective uniqueness, and objective uniqueness.

Consider that we general distinguish between subjects with principles of spatial form and spatial separation. These distinctions constitute what we call our uniqueness, unique features, properties, and unique spatial positioning. This is what I would call subjective uniqueness.

Objective uniqueness is the uniqueness of the moment in time, what we call "now". Notice that as time passes there is at every moment, a new and unique "now", never a repetition, such that the entire universe is new and unique at each passing moment. Now, that each and every part of the universe partakes of this same unique moment, in its own way, is a brute fact concerning the nature of the universe. Plato, makes an interesting comment in "The Sophist" (I believe, perhaps it "Parmenides"), where Socrates compares the existence of the Idea, or Form, to the existence of the day. No matter how many different places partake of "the day", the day is no more, or no less "the day". In other words, the way that the various different things partake in that unique moment in time known as "today", this in no way alters the uniqueness of "today" itself.

Relativity theory annihilates this "brute fact", the uniqueness of the moment in time, which we know as "now". Consequently relativity theory, which is a very useful principle for relating and measuring very distinct types of motions, annihilates "objective uniqueness". This leaves us with only "subjective uniqueness" as the means for understanding the reality of uniqueness. However, subjective uniqueness, by which we distinguish one subject from another subject, by reference to spatial principles, is only an appearance of uniqueness, because every subject has a real, underlying connection to each other, by partaking in the same unique moment in time. So, rather than understanding the true uniqueness of objective uniqueness, which renders us all in another sense "the same", such an "understanding" of subjective uniqueness, which assumes a spatial separation between us instead of a temporal unity within an objective uniqueness, will always be a misunderstanding.

f I experience a revelation or a "higher' insight, what is it about the experience that warrants it as knowledge? This is the question that proponents of "direct knowing" can never answer. — Janus

I don't see how this is relevant. There is no consensus amongst epistemologists as to what warrants anything as "knowledge". So this type of attack on "insight" as a form of "direct knowing", is just the expression of a subjective opinion base in one's personal preference as to what constitutes "knowing".

We consistently encounter this sort of problem, in this type of thread, with many similar terms, "intelligence", "consciousness", "experience", "intention", etc.. The problem is that how one understands terms like these is dependent on the philosophy which the person has read or discussed previously. And amongst the participants here, there is a wide variance.

So from your perspective, the proponents of "direct knowing" can never answer the question of what it is about the experience, which warrants calling it "knowing". From my perspective no one can ever answer the question of what it is about any experience which warrants calling it "knowing", so this comment is super unproductive.

Self reference does not, in-itself make for circularity. Eg, the moral relativist might coherently say that there are no objective normative truths and no objective metaethical truths except this one. That references itself but is clearly not circular. Likewise, it isn't circular to say that one's freedom of movement does not include blocking someone else in such that they cannot move. Especially given that other people's choices are not the extent of what defines what choices belong to a person. — Dan

The problem I pointed out involved using self-reference in a definition. What happened was that you first defined "one's own choices" as a choice relating what to do with one's own mind, body and property. Then I pointed out that every choice which a person makes, relates to what to do with one's own mind, body, or property. And, what is really at issue is how one's choice to do something with one's own body, affects others. You moved to define "one's own choice" based on how a person's choice of what to do with one's body, affects others. So you came up with, if the choice doesn't limit another's ability to make one's own choice, then it is one's own choice.

Clearly, what you have proposed is a self-referential definition. I prefer to characterize it as infinite regress rather than circular. Q. How do we know if the choice is one's own? A. if it does not limit another's ability to make one's own choice. Q. How do we know if another's ability to make one's own choices has been limited if we do not know what it means to make one's own choice, other than that it is a choice which does not limit this ability of another? See, we cannot ever get anywhere because we do not know what it means to make one's own choices, other than that it doesn't affect another's ability to make one's own choice. But we cannot make that judgement as to whether it affects another in this way, because we don't know what it means to make one's own choice, other than that it doesn't affect another's ability to make one's own choice.

They are not aribitrary, they are based on the ability of persons to understand and make their own choices. It is certainly true that I am going against accepted moral philosophy but accepted moral philosophy is wrong. — Dan

You have been unable to even adequately define your primary principle "the ability of persons to understand and make their own choices". Your attempts have been reduced to a meaningless self-referential definition.

Anyway, I don't think we are making any progress. I've come to see that what qualifies as "morally relevant" to you, is very different from what qualifies as "morally relevant" to me, and we seem to be completely incapable of bridging this gap. This is probably due to the attitude you disclose here, "accepted moral philosophy is wrong".

According to the op, you have spent the better part of ten years trying to resolve the issues of your moral theory. You have become so stymied that you now offer $10,000 to anyone who can resolve the problems with your theory. I suggest that it is high time for you to consider that the reason why you cannot solve the problems is that your theory is simply wrong, therefore there are issues which are impossible to resolve.

The uniqueness of the revelation is not attributable to the individual, as a subjective uniqueness. It is attributed to the circumstances, or situation of the experience, as objective uniqueness. It is this objective uniqueness, the peculiarities of the circumstances, which makes the experience so powerful. It takes the reality of uniqueness from the subject and places it in the object so that the subject is no longer a unique individual, but a unique part of the universe. Instead of a subject, or self, we have a unique place and time.

I understand that people are sometimes said to share their insight, but I cannot say that I completely understand this idea. Can you explain how you understand "insight", if it does not involve a sort of uniqueness? I would understand it as a specific way of understanding the peculiarities of a particular set of circumstances. We can share our insight, but the insight relates to a particular situation.

I stand by my interpretation. This is what you said:

Yet part of what confuses these threads is that there really are colored objects outside the body, in the sense that there are really objects which reflect light in ways that allow them to be discriminated. Moreover they really do look the way they do: appearing this way (to humans) is a stable, mind independent property (just not independent of all minds, it is like a social reality) — hypericin

This is what I said:

But as you now correctly point out, from different scales, things "look" vastly different, so we need to resolve all the inconsistencies between the various different "looks", before we can claim to know how things really "look". — Metaphysician Undercover

Notice, you made a statement about what there really is, or specifically "there really are...". And you said "...they really do look the way they do...". That is what I objected to. In my last post I explained why we cannot truthfully make assertions about the way things really are, or how things "really look". And that is exactly what you did.

According to Scheler, the modern worldview harbors a prejudice with respect to what counts as an experience or what is evidential. For the modern thinker, only those experiences that can be proven in a rational or logical manner are true or evidential experiences (GW V, 104). — SEP

I think the key issue here is repeatability. The capacity to reproduce a similitude of the experience (the observation), commonly known as the repeatability of an experiment, induces the conclusion that the observed phenomenon is understandable.

I believe, that where scientism misleads us is that it often conflates "understandable" with "understood". Many people take the capacity of science to predict as evidence that the predicted phenomenon is understood. This is clearly not the case in fields like physics, which operate from laws which enable prediction, with disregard for understanding. For example, "relativity" is a theory designed to enable prediction at the compromise of disabling understanding, producing ontologies such as model-based realism, which assume that true understanding is simply impossible.

The issue with the religious experience is that by its very nature it is unique. And, the fact that it is a unique experience proves something very important about the nature of the universe: its capacity to produce unique things. Uniqueness has no place in a world understood through the scientific process of repetition, and the application of general laws. However, uniqueness is a very real aspect of our world, and understanding the process whereby it is realized, comes into being, is a very important feature of understanding the nature of the world. This is a feature which science cannot understand, nor provide for us the capacity to understand, because science is specifically designed to ignore it (as the difference which does not make a difference).

That issue is not commonly approached by philosophers, many of whom simply assume the overarching power of the scientific process, to understand the world in absolute terms, through the capacity of prediction, which lays waste to uniqueness. However, it is very well addressed by Plato in "The Timaeus", where he introduces the concept of "matter" as that which is responsible for the uniqueness we observe within the world.

First, it isn't circular to suggest that the limits of rights (or freedoms) should be where they abut upon those same rights (or freedoms) of another. — Dan

Yes it is circular. It's a self-referential definition, as I described. And that's a huge problem for the concept of "rights" in general. The definition of any specific right is always having to be reinterpreted because of that circularity. It's not a rigorous definition because every time that it reflects back on itself in an unwanted way, the definition has to be adjusted to the situation. This is why it's not a real definition, it is intentionally allowed to be adaptable because a rigid definition would run into problems.

Second, anger doesn't "result" in attacks on other people, or other vengeful activity. People are morally responsible for their actions even when angry. Anger doesn't "make" people act violently, they choose to. — Dan

Dan, you continue with the very same trickery, to turn things around. Anger is the consequence here, not the cause. The question is whether a choice which causes another person emotional distress is one's own choice. I believe that causing another person emotional distress, such as anger, is just as morally relevant as causing another person to lose one's property, through theft. In fact, I would go even further, to state that I believe that the reason why things like theft are morally relevant, is because they cause emotional distress. If theft did not cause emotional distress, no one would care about it, and it would not be designated as bad.

I am starting to think that you are being ridiculous. Instead of listening to the problems of your ill-fated theory, you have gone into denial about its problems, and are now resorting to trickery in an attempt to get around the problems.

If you choose to say something on the street corner, that thing might affect me, but it is a choice of what to do with yourself, not what to do with me. — Dan

This is blatantly incorrect. When I choose to say something to you, this is a choice of what to do with you. When I engage you in this way I am anticipating a response. The act of engagement is not about itself, it concerns the eliciting of a response. The intent of the act is to get a response from you, therefore it is "a choice of what to do with you". This is even more evident in my example of education, which you seem intent on ignoring. "To educate" is what you do to another.

I have not made an arbitrary distinction, but a principled one. — Dan

Your principles are arbitrary. You assign greater moral value to a person's property than you assign to a person's mental well-being. Stealing a person's property is "morally relevant", but causing a person emotional distress is not "morally relevant". Not only are your principles arbitrary, they are completely backward from accepted moral philosophy.

What I am saying is that emotional distress is not a consequence which is relevant to determining the morality of an action (or choice). Does that make sense? — Dan

No, this makes no sense at all, for the reasons explained above. One's emotional well-being, and mental stability is of the highest value. Therefore emotional distress is a consequence which is of the highest degree of relevance to determining the morality of an action. As I said above, the reason why stealing one's property is morally bad is not because it leaves you without a specific object, it is because it causes emotional distress.

Rather not. The micro scale is just one scale, one perspective, not more or less privileged than the human, planetary, or cosmic. What scale we talk in depends on context. On our human scale, there are not just protons and electrons, but vast assemblages of them which behave in the ways that are meaningful and relevant to us. — hypericin

That's the problem. Depending on which "scale" we "look" at things from, what we "see" is vastly different. The terms "look" and "see" are meant in the sense of looking and seeing with the intellect, rather than with the eyes. The sense of sight provides us with the way that things "appear" from a very specific "scale", or perspective, and since we rely heavily on that sense, we are deceived into thinking that this is the "correct" way that things "look". But as you now correctly point out, from different scales, things "look" vastly different, so we need to resolve all the inconsistencies between the various different "looks", before we can claim to know how things really "look".

That's why I objected to your post claiming that things really do "look" the way we perceive them to look, through the sense of sight.

If by "coloured objects" you just mean "objects which reflect light which cause colour sensations" then sure. But that's dispositionalism, not naive colour realism. — Michael

Rather than "objects which reflect light", it might be better to say that we distinguish through our eyes, the energy levels of groups of electrons responding to their environmental conditions. I believe it is important to notice that we attribute mass to "an object", and electrons have very little, if any, mass. Since the mass of an object is attributed to the nucleus of the atoms, it is very important to understand this revelation of modern science, the fact that we do not see the massive "object". The eyes are sensing something else completely, and presenting that to the conscious mind as the appearance of a coloured object. This is the way that the senses are said to deceive us, through the creation of what we call "appearances".

Yet part of what confuses these threads is that there really are colored objects outside the body, in the sense that there are really objects which reflect light in ways that allow them to be discriminated. Moreover they really do look the way they do: appearing this way (to humans) is a stable, mind independent property (just not independent of all minds, it is like a social reality) — hypericin

There is no good reason to believe this. It's just like what atheists say about people who believe in God, you just believe this because it makes you feel more comfortable.

Do you really want me to explain why stealing my car prevents me from being able to make choices about what to do with my stuff, but beating me in a competition does not, or are you just being facetious? — Dan

That is not the issue. "One's own choice" is defined as a choice concerning what to do with one's own mind, body, and property. It is not defined as a choice which does not prevent someone else from making one's own choice. The latter is not a definition, it is a fallacy of a "circular definition", a self-referential definition. And I've already explained to you why the choice to steal your car is just as much a choice concerning my own mind, body, and property, as are the choices which lead to beating another in a competition.

Anyway, I explained to you how hurting another emotionally may lead to anger, or other feelings which could result in an attack on the person, or some other vengeful activity. So I do not think you have any argument there.

But just like when you said this the first time, you're just wrong that habits and education reduces someone's ability to understand and make their own choices (though miseducation of the kind that leads to people not understanding their own choices would obviously be morally relevant). — Dan

Again, you misrepresent the issue. It is not a matter of whether teaching a person "reduces someone's ability to understand and make their own choices", it is a question of whether the decision to teach a person is a choice about one's own mind, body, and property. Clearly, the choice to teach a person is just as much a choice concerning someone else's mind, as the choice to steal a car is a choice concerning someone else's property.

You aren't simply applying it in a consistent way, you are insisting on applying it either in such a way that our own choices can't affect others at all or in which any choice that you make with your own mind (which is presumably all of them) are your own choices. These are not the only options, and neither is one I would endorse. — Dan

Sure, there are other options, like making an arbitrary distinction like you have, which as I explained, has principles weighted by your personal preferences. You think for example, that stealing a person's car has more moral significance than educating a person does. I think it is very clear that the opposite is true. Stealing a person's car has a one time, flash-in-the-pan effect on the person, which is very minimal in the scale of a person's lifetime, but educating a person has a lifelong effect on the person.

There's a few issues here. First, what choices one has access to and what choices one ought to have access to are not the same thing. Second, the choice is taken from me in the moment of arm breaking. It's no use saying that I don't have the choice once you've taken it from me, that is precisely the problem. — Dan

I spent a long time, at the beginning of this thread, trying to explain to you how any choice which a person makes limits that person's options, therefore restricting the person's freedom. Now you seem to be starting to understand, expressing how another person's choice may limit one's freedom. To fully understand this principle you need to recognize that a person's own choice limits one's freedom even more than the choice of another does.

Again, we are getting into trouble because I am saying that the emotional distress is not morally relevant in the sense that it does not have moral value or disvalue that contributes to the consequences of an action being good or bad, are you are reading that as saying something else. Hopefully I have cleared up that misunderstanding. — Dan

Oh sure, earlier you refused to distinguish between the choice, and the action which follows from the choice. Now, when it serves your purpose, you separate the act from the choice, to say that emotional distress does not contribute to the goodness or badness of the consequences of an "act". However, it is simply trickery, sophistry, to dismiss emotional distress in this way. Anger clearly contributes to the choices a person makes, producing consequences which are bad, bad actions. Therefore it has moral value in relation to choices. I am surprised that a person of your intelligence level would resort to such a sneaky trick, just to try and support a failing theory.

I have explained why the choices to be protected should be restricted to one's own choices. I don't think it is vague to say you get to decide what to do with your own mind, body, and property. I think the limits of that (eg, your mind, body and property, not mine) are pretty clear. — Dan

That is overwhelmingly false. As we've discussed, every choice which an individual makes concerns what to do with one's own mind, body, or property. There is no limit intrinsic to that definition of "one's own choices". However, since our world is a communal world, what one does with one's own mind, body, and property, often has significant effect on the mind, body, and property of others.

As the examples we've discussed demonstrate, your goal is to impose a very arbitrary, and not at all well defined distinction between different types of "effects on others". Based on this ill-define distinction, you say that some types of choices belong to a person (are one's own), and other types of choices do not belong to the person (are not one's own). Your claim, that these "limits" are "pretty clear", is blatantly false. As evident from the examples, the proposed limit is arbitrary and weighted to your personal preferences. For example, when I damage your property (steal your car) this is weighted towards "not a choice which belongs to me", but when you damage my ego (beat me in a competition), this is weighted towards "a choice which belongs to you".

Please refer back to our earlier discussions about how education, and the establishing of habits of thinking, is a means by which people exercise considerable influence over the minds of others. The effects which education has are very significant, therefore choices made to educate others ought not be classed as one's own choice. Furthermore, any time that a person asks another for assistance, this would not be based in one's own choice.

The issue is, that since we live in a communal world, then once we start to apply your proposed principle of distinction in a consistent way, we end up with very few choices which are actually "one's own". This leaves the question of why do you want to protect the ability to make such choices. How are such choices at all valuable?

You breaking my bone very much affects my ability to understand and make choices about my own body, such as whether I want my bones broken. — Dan

You appear to be totally neglectful, and ignorant of the temporal nature of choices, which was discussed earlier. Choices relate to future possibilities, we must consider the past as determined. After you've had a bone broken, you cannot choose not to have it broken. You can wish that it did not happen, but such wishes must be separated out from, and dismissed as irrelevant to, the decision making process of a healthy mind. In Christian ethics, the separating of the past, from decisions toward the future, is very important, and this manifests in the confession/forgiveness process. "Jesus died for our sins" is a proposition which allows us to separate ourselves from the mistakes of the past, and move forward with a clear conscience.

Emotional distress, on the other hand, just isn't in itself morally relevant. If someone is made sad, or happy, it doesn't matter morally. — Dan

Like the beginning of your post, this at the end, is also blatantly false. Emotional distress is of immense moral importance. Anger for example is a contributing factor to a vast array of immoral acts. The angry person may act in a vengeful way, and this would mark a turning from making "one's own choices", toward choices which do not belong to the person ( even by your standards). Therefore it would be very foolish to dismiss emotional distress as not morally relevant. For example, if I injured you (broke a bone in the other example) this may send you into a condition of emotional distress (anger), and even though you maintain the ability to understand and make your own choices, you start to make choices which do not belong to you (revenge).

The issue being that choices are freely made, and a turning away from making one's own choices toward making choices which do not belong to oneself (by your proposed distinction), does not indicate that the ability to understand and make one's own choices is impaired. It simply means that the person has decided on other choices at that particular time.

However, the perspective which I am coming from is that of not viewing evolution as having been reached ultimately. — Jack Cummins

I would say that the idea that evolution has reached some kind of end, would be very foolish.

The issue is how to determine which choices belong to a person and which do not. The ability to make "one's own choices" is what you desire to protect. Your criteria of concerning what to do with "one's own mind, body, and property" is very doubtful as to applicability, because most actual choices in practise, concern activities in the public sphere, and so choices concerning one's own mind, body, or property, have varying degrees of influence over the mind, body, and property of others.

You seem to have some sort of arbitrary guideline in your mind, as to the degree that a person's actions will affect others, which is supposed to act as a divisor between the categories of choices which belong to the person, and those which do not. If I understand correctly, the divisor itself, is the degree to which an act effects another person's ability to make one's own choice. So, if I choose to use my own body and my own property, and the effect is to crush your body, to the extent that your own capacity to make your own choices is restricted, then this is not a choice which belongs to me. However, if my choice simply makes you emotional, unhappy because I beat you in a competition, then this is a choice which belongs to me, because I have not robbed you of your ability to make your own choices.

Dear Dan, I think you ought to see this as extremely problematic. I could perform an act which injures you in a bodily way, cuts you, or breaks a bone, and this would not impair your ability to make your own decisions any more (perhaps even less) than causing you emotional distress would. Furthermore, since all choices concern doing something with one's own mind, body, or property, and there is almost always effects on others, then the determining factor, as to what qualifies as one's own choice, amounts to a decision based on the application of the arbitrary divisor you have in mind. The arbitrary divisor seems to be the degree to which other peoples' ability to make one's own choice is affected. But there is no clear definition of what constitutes "one's own choice", so there is an infinite regress of vagueness. To determine whether a choice is "one's own to make", we must refer to whether it affects the ability of another to make one's own choice, but we haven't yet determined how to know what "one's own choice" actually is.

Because of these problems with defining "one's own choice", I suggest that you drop this requirement, that the type of choice you want to protect the ability to make, is "one's own". Why not just start with the principle that you want to protect the ability to make choices? This would be a much better representation of "freedom", the capacity to make any choice whatsoever without restriction, and so you could start with this as your fundamental principle. Then you could apply your structure of necessary restrictions, due to moral relevance, to this freedom to make choices, in the most general sense.

We just use those things to change the way an object’s surface reflects light. That does not suggest that colour is a mind-independent property of the object’s surface. — Michael

In quantum physics reflection is actually an interaction between light and electrons, explained as simultaneous absorption and emission of photons. Each photon of light interacts with all the electrons at the surface of the reflecting object, but there is a time difference depending on how far away the part of the surface is from the source of the photon. The frequency of photon emitted from the electron depends on the energy level of the electron. It's very complex, but something like that.

The argument from Aristotle is that a body is an organized existence, and an agent is required for any type of organization, as the organizer. Therefore the agent as organizer, is prior in time to the existence of the body. Of course abiogenesis is the basis for a denial of the secondary premise, but as the op points out, it's not a justified denial.

That's cool, the way to fight fascism is through sexual freedom, and the pure unadulterated enjoyment of it, "harmonious channelling of libido and orgastic potency". Why would anyone ban something so pleasantly childish?

My opinion is the opposite: that the dog is less-equipped to see the world, not only because it has only a fraction of the cones we do, but because it sees less of the world as a result. — NOS4A2

But dogs can see in the dark. They forfeit one advantage for the sake of another.

Consequentialism is all about judging the consequences of actions by their moral value in order to determine if that action is right/wrong/permissible/etc. — Dan

Well, I do not agree with this, I think consequentialism is all about judging the moral value of actions through an assessment of the consequences. Moral value is attributed to the actions not the consequences.

Nevertheless, if we uphold this principle, that moral value is attributed to consequences, then your inconsistency becomes even more clear. The following is what you said about a person's own choice:

There are lots of intentional acts one could make that affect others but are entirely that person's own choice. If I beat you in a contest, I have affected you with my choices, and in ways you would presumably prefer I didn't, but I haven't restricted your ability to understand and make your own decisions. It wasn't your choice whether you won the contest or not, so my denying you that opportunity doesn't affect you in a morally relevant way. These restrictions you are worried about are of your own invention. — Dan

If moral value is attributed to the consequences of an action, then it is very clear that if a choice affects others, it affects them in a morally relevant way, whether the person intends to have an effect on others or not, and so this cannot be said to be one's own choice. If the person understands it as one's own choice, then that person misunderstands, not realizing the affects it will have on others.

So if you think that the choices which you make in that contest, are your own choices (concerning your own mind, body, or property) to make, then you misunderstand what your choice is really about. In reality the choice you make affects my mind as much as yours, so it is not really a choice which belongs to you. This is no different from if I decided to smash my car into yours, or even if I decided to drive over people. You would say that it was a choice that did not belong to me because I am destroying your car, or the ability of others to make their own choices, if I run people over. In reality, I just misunderstood, thinking that the choice did belong to me, because it is something I am doing with my car, and I am not considering the consequences which my actions have on others. This means I am inconsiderate. Likewise, when you beat me in a contest, and you think that that was the result of choices which belong to you, you simply misunderstand. Those choices do not belong to you. because it was me who you beat, and my mind, and the ability to make my own choices, which you are imposing suffering on, not your own, even though you are doing it with your own mind. Just like I am being inconsiderate when I impose suffering with my own car, you are being inconsiderate when you impose suffering through the contest.

In both of these cases the words 'naive' and 'scientific' are used metaphorically (or rethorically), not literally. — jkop

I guess I just don't see the metaphor here, and the use appears to me to be literal.

I mean yeah, those consequences can still be judged for moral value in the sense that they can be consequences that are morally good. It doesn't make sense to say the tornado "acted" rightly, but the consequences that occur, the situation which results, has higher moral value than what would have occurred in the situation where the tornado destroyed your house. — Dan

I really do not understand what you could possibly mean by "higher moral value" here. Perhaps you could explain. Suppose I\m watching the approach of a tornado. I see that it misses all the houses in the neighbourhood, and rips through a forest instead. You say that there is moral value in this situation. Can you explain what you mean? Is it because the tornado could have killed people, but didn't? I could have got hit by a bus yesterday, but didn't. Does that mean there is moral value in the consequences of the bus not hitting me? Does any situation which can be judged as either negative or positive have moral value?

That doesn't follow at all from what I said. My ability to understand and make my own decisions isn't restricted by me freely making a decision to allow you to use my car. Rather, it is exercised. — Dan

But the example does not concern your ability to make your own decisions, it concerns the question of whether deciding to use your car in this situation is a choice which belongs to me or not.

Or, are you now distinguishing whether a choice belongs to me or not, by how it affects others' ability to make their own choices? That's what it appears like. If my choice doesn't restrict your ability to make your own choices, then the choice belongs to me. That would be very problematic.

That is neither what I said nor what I meant. Consenting to sex is a choice that belongs to you, but having it is not (in the sense that if no one is keen to participate in that activity with you, your ability to understand and make your choices has not been restricted. — Dan

Again, it appears like you are defining "one's own choice" in relation to whether the choice restricts the ability of others to make their own choices. This would lead to an infinite regress without ever determining what it means to make one's own choice.

It is a theory of what choices are morally permissible, but that all flows from whether those choices protect or violate the ability of persons to understand and make their own choices. Making their own choices is (usually) morally permissible, but not all morally permissible choices are choices which belong to the person making them. — Dan

Sure, but in order for this principle to have any meaning, and to be able to be brought to bear on any real situations, we need to know what "their own choices" means. First you said that these are choices which concern one's own mind, body, and property. Then you allowed that in some situations, such as consent or agreement, choices concerning another's mind. body, or property also belong to the person. Now you seem to be saying that so long as the choice doesn't restrict another's capacity to make one's own choice, then the choice is one's own choice. This gets me no closer toward understanding what you mean by one's own choice.

For example, I haven't said that choices concerning the mind, body, and property of others belong to the person at all. — Dan

OK, so we've gone around a big circle. Let me get back to the issue as it was then. In general, choices which are judged as morally good, are not choices which belong to the person at all, if this means concerning one's own mind, body, or property. This is because morally good choices are about the mind, body, and property of others. So, how do you justify wanting to protect choices which belong to the person? And please, don't go off on a tangent again, speaking about how choices which belong to the person may affect the body or property of another in an accidental way, because the morally good acts, which we want to consider, are when we intentionally act in a good way. Why have a principle which promotes protecting the ability to make one's own choices, when a much better principle would be to protect the ability to make morally good choices. Neither of these principles is about protecting freedom of choice, so that idea is just a ruse anyway.