If we could, somehow, access an object in some way other than via the means of human perception (this appears metaphysically impossible - implicit in my wording), then we could compare the workings of both. But, we don't have that, so we can't make any 'a priori' claims. Though, it seems i meant "nothing to go on" apologies for that mis-step. — AmadeusD

But why would you do that? I don't think anyone was saying to access an object in some way other than via the means of human perception. You need to explain further on this.

I understand/understood hte claim, and based on my own parochial understanding of Kant, my replies flowed. My responses (you'll perhaps see after this) are direct responses to that position). I think the premise is wrong and so the argument unneeded. — AmadeusD

You need to explain why the premise is wrong. You cannot just say something is wrong without giving out the reason why. If there is no argument on your claim, then it is not a philosophical claim.

If anyone could prove the existence of God, there would be very few atheists. — Hyper

If God exists, then God does not exist.
God exists.
Therefore God does not exist.
:nerd:

It may be (as I think I lean) that human minds are literally empty at inception. We learn concepts through having them foisted on the mind. There's no reason to thinkt he mind is incapable of assenting to a concept like space, given it could not function without it, in the world (this, obviously, assumes space as a facet of reality outside of minds - which I think is uncontroversial, myself). — AmadeusD

Aren't some perceptions direct, and some indirect? It depends on the situations and also the objects of perception. Not all perceptions are direct, and not all are indirect. They are confused in thinking there are only one type of perception.

There are perceptions that we perceive the objects as they are (such as the objects which are accessible and possible to interact with, in which case perceptions of this kind could be described as direct), and there are objects that we perceive as our brain interprets from the sense data (which are not directly accessible and impossible to interact with), then perceptions on these objects are indirect.

Depending on the nature of the objects, we perceive and experience them in different way, not just direct realist way, or not just indirect realist way only.

I don't think we can make this claim, because sans experience of an object without human perception, we have nothing to go on. It may be (as I think I lean) that human minds are literally empty at inception. We learn concepts through having them foisted on the mind. There's no reason to thinkt he mind is incapable of assenting to a concept like space, given it could not function without it, in the world (this, obviously, assumes space as a facet of reality outside of minds - which I think is uncontroversial, myself). — AmadeusD

I was trying to understand points in the passage here, but I couldn't. I am not sure if it is linguistic structure or the philosophical point which are complex and abstract.

What do you mean by "sans experience of an object without human perception, we have nothing going on"?

Human perception is always operational even in sleep according to the posters' and my own experiences. The only time human perception stops is when mind falls into unconsciousness, and when the body dies.

I am not sure if mind keeps working after death of the body, but no one alive had been dead, hence no one can certify on the mystery of mind after death.

I'm quite unconvinced we can make any kind of claim like this, and is principally why I can't get on too much with Kant (along with his boiling-down to God for his fundamental conclusions, in terms of regression). — AmadeusD

Good point. This article on Causality of Hume and Kant has a through explanation on the concept.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-hume-causality/

The OP's point was to explore the claim from Hume and Kant, our perception need external objects or excitement from the objects on our minds to operate. The OP is trying to argue that this claim is not necessarily true. Because there are cases that human perception operates even without external objects existing or external excitement on the mind (like Kant's claim). We perceive non-existence objects at times without any objects existing in front of us.

The OP's purpose of argument is to prove a possibility of another mechanism of mind which operates behind the scene being able to perceive the non-existence objects, which can offer explanation of the workings of causality, space and time and other metaphysical entities.

An old book has been on the desk for few weeks. I saw the book every evening when I came into the room. But this evening, it disappeared from the desk. I didn't notice it until I was looking for the book. Someone might have moved the book from the desk, or maybe it was moved to some other location in the house when I was moving some other books into the other room.

The bottom line is that, the book has disappeared from the spot it was on. I cannot see it anymore.
So, the book is now a non-existent object to me. But I am still seeing the non-existent book on the spot it was on the desk. It is not my imagination of the book. Imagination is mental images made up of false existence. But what I was seeing was the book which is now non-existing book on the spot in the space where it had been. It is the non-existence of the book which I was noticing. Not the book itself.

In reality I am not seeing anything on the spot where the book was on the desk. There is only empty space on the desk. But I am still seeing the non-existent book, which should be on the spot in the space. Am I seeing nothing? How can you see nothing? Nothing is invisible visually. Nothing doesn't have mass, weight, colour or shape physically or metaphysically or even logically. Or am I still seeing the book which is now a non-existence book? If it was a non-existence book I was seeing on the spot in the space where it had been existing for past few days, then how could be a book be also non-existence book?

Huh? I've spent considerable energy in this thread arguing against the concept of physically "proving" metaphysical entities, like gods. — LuckyR

Is God a metaphysical entity? What is the proof for that? Is word God a proper name for God? What does God mean, and which God does it mean?

And yet, you didn't understand that, "the bricks that make up the sentences are not the actual words themselves," was a figure of speech :chin: — night912

You didn't understand what the figure of speech meant, and kept repeating "the representation of the word". So I gave you the explanation what figure of speech means, and the concept of simile which was in the figure of speech.

You didn't prove that the word exists. All you did was proved that the representation of the word exists. — night912

I am not sure what you mean by "the representation of the word". What is the difference between word and "the representation of the word"?

Huh? I've spent considerable energy in this thread arguing against the concept of physically "proving" metaphysical entities, like gods. — LuckyR

I was just suggesting a direction for you to take in case you are interested in seeing the physical proof of God's existence.

So, no, I don't need to define anything, since I'm not proving anything. — LuckyR

Since you have joined the thread, and spent your considerable energy arguing, you still need to prove why you are not proving anything.

You? — LuckyR

I already gave out my proof.

As to whether gods are metaphysical, they are by my understanding, — LuckyR

You need to clarify what your definition of God is. Your proof of God would only make sense when you have a clear definition of God. The premises of your proof can only start from a solid definition. Then the logical proof could progress.

And then you must define what you mean by existence. Does everything you say as existing, exist in physical entity? There are also many objects which exists in conceptual entities. Then what you do you mean by existence?

the bricks that make up the sentences — night912

For your information, "brick" was a figure of speech called simile in my sentence.

Simile is
"a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid (e.g. as brave as a lion )." - Oxford Dictionary.

In emotivist's ethical principle, morality is for emotions, not beliefs or facts. Therefore when you say something is morally good means same thing as saying "boo" or "hooray".

So, which ethical principle were you talking about here?

the bricks that make up the sentences are not the actual words themselves. — night912

They are. If they are not, I wouldn't have understood you. I did understand what you typed, so they are as real as bricks.

The only place I have seen God was in the word, G O D, nowhere else, hence the definition and proof.

If you demand proof for physical existence from metaphysical concept, are you not begging the question?

What stops you accepting my proof? Is God a metaphysical entity?

Presuppositions are conceptual in nature. — Joshs

Again, it sounds vague. What is your definition of concept? Why are presuppositions are conceptual?
Are all presuppositions conceptual in nature?

What motivates and guides the search for and organization of data? How do we determine what is actually data and what is irrelevant? — Joshs

Are they not presupposed in all scientific observations? Reiterating those sounds like just stating the obvious. No scientific observations would be done without all that predetermined and pre-equipped unless they are done by bunch of bird watchers, trainspotters, or sports spectators.

Thank you for your confirmation and information on the point. It is an interesting point in Philosophy of Science and Metaphysics. I feel I learnt something new thanks to this thread. Thanks.

As I said, it is a well-known concept; there is actually a wiki on it. I would start with that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory-ladenness — Pantagruel

Thanks for the link. Yes, it is an informative content for the point. I agree with the article's point saying

"Theory-ladenness poses a problem for the confirmation of scientific theories since the observational evidence may already implicitly presuppose the thesis it is supposed to justify. This effect can present a challenge for reaching scientific consensus if the disagreeing parties make different observations due to their different theoretical backgrounds."

Observation takes place through an apparatus of perception, which includes not just telescopes and microscopes, but conceptual apparatuses of interpretation. — Joshs

This sounds like an abstract waffle. You need to explain it further how and why observation is conceptual apparatuses of interpretation. Why do you need concept and interpretation when you are looking for and collecting data?

This basically says that observation is theory laden, so all thought is the product of its history of conceptualization (including observations). — Pantagruel

Observation is historical thinking sounded vague. From the common sense, observation is perceptual act looking for data and collecting data from the phenomenon in the world. Not quite sure what you mean by observation is theory laden either. All thought is the product of its history of conceptualization? It needs explanation as well.

Fundamentally (observation is theory laden) it's a pretty basic concept. Collingwood expands upon it considerably. — Pantagruel

Perhaps you could elaborate further on the points from the original text?

My point is that many things we deal with routinely and without controversy also don't possess objective existence. — LuckyR

OK, but your point is not a proof. 100 billion agreed believers have no proof. The OP was asking for a proof of the existence of God. Proof involves presenting arguments with evidence and conclusion from the argument.

Rather, the dollar only has value because the vast majority of humans consciously agree that it has value, that is, it has no intrinsic or objective value. Similarly, gods definitely exist as entities through agreed human belief that is, as intersubjective entities (like nations, corporations and economies), though not objective entities, as you noted. — LuckyR

You seem to be confusing between value and existence. Agreed human beliefs alone don't warrant or prove the existence of God.

‘observing’ facts is really historical thinking, — Pantagruel

What do you mean by historical thinking?

a complex process involving numerous presuppositions — Pantagruel

Could you elaborate further? What numerous presuppositions for what, and why?

Absolutely. Models don't exclude the modeler and the modeled, they unite them. — Pantagruel

Also simulation or modeling can only be of that which is observed else it would be simulation or modeling of nothing. — Janus

Simulation or modelling are ideal for verification, testing, demonstration and presentation of the theories. However, they still need hypotheses, data collection, and experiments before establishing scientific theories. Whatever the case, they all need observation by humans who record and monitor the process, and simulation and modelling wouldn't replace observation in science.

Is Germany an entity? How about Apple corporation? How about the US dollar's value? Intersubjective entities are entities. — LuckyR

They are not metaphysical entities, are they? They have clear definitions, location and boundaries of their HQs and their presence, clearly set duties and activities, aims of their existence, and set of the members within the corporations and nations as well as the traditions and cultures within the entities, which are readily identifiable in physical and abstract manner.
God doesn't have any of those properties. God only exists in word.

We'll credit this to an enthusiasm fueled by maybe wine. Silliness from a bottle - unless the bottle is you. — tim wood

It wasn't me. It was A.N. Whitehead who said that all western philosophy is footnote of Plato.

one wherein emphasis has shifted from observation to simulation or modeling. — Pantagruel

But don't simulation or modelling at the end of the day need observation to be meaningful? Simulation and modelling unobserved by humans don't exist, therefore meaningless?

Mind needs body to exist and operate, however, body doesn't cause mind for its operations.
Body is another object of mind's perception. — Corvus


Agree. — Wayfarer

:up: :cool:

Also arising is the question of the quality of the secondary source; not all are right and some are plain wrong. And how would anyone know without access to the original? — tim wood

There is no originals in Philosophy. All philosophy is interpretation and critique of the world.

sometimes the seeming long way 'round is the shortest and best. — tim wood

Long way round is the longest with no ending. What may look best today might turn out to be claptrap tomorrow. Stay open minded. :D

Having said that, more importantly metaphysical entities (which the vast majority of god definitions are) defy purely physical proof. — LuckyR

Yeah, but having said that, isn't metaphysical entities a contradiction anyway? Metaphysical entities lack entities. Metaphysical entities with no entities are nothing. In Kant, it is Thing-in-Itself. They don't defy proofs. They don't have proofs.

You didn't prove that the word exists. All you did was proved that the representation of the word exists. — night912

Every time words are spoken, written or typed out, they are real as bricks. Bricks that make up the sentences, which are propositions, statements or claims in the real world. For instance, God is great, or Oh my God, you took my money, but didn't let me win the lottery jackpot. Don't worry, God will save you. etc etc. These are the real life examples of solid manifestation and materialization and utilization of the words.

I don't read my girl friend. :nerd:
I tend to refer from the academic commentaries on CPR these days for saving time. There are other stuff to read, and time is too short in a day. " Remember everyone has limited time in this world." - Steve Jobs

That's right. And I can whistle Beethoven's Ninth. The trouble comes when folks are dismissive because of length. Short, sweet (maybe), and simple - that's how it should be. Is that what your girlfriend thinks? — tim wood

Your question committed a categorical misunderstanding, therefore discarded as meaningless babble. My girl friend is not philosophical writings. They belong to different categories.

I'm suspicious of long winded writers,it's like a long list of apologies and overwrought justifications,showing how the writer is unsure of his ideas! — Swanty

Long writings on the philosophical topics tend to be counter productive in its clarity. Usually long writings get avoided and misunderstood by the readers. CPR could have been written in 10 pages prolegomena instead of 800 pages and in two versions.

Even in the forum, I tend to avoid reading the long OPs or posts unless they are super interesting or significant. I just tend to read the titles and first 1 or 2 sentences before moving on to something else.

Niet and Witt were great in writing short and sweet philosophies.

mind as a product of material causation, as is everything else. — Wayfarer

I am not sure if mind as a product of material causation is a proper term or description. First of all, body is not just a material. Human body is a biological organism functioning under the evolutionary frame. Mind is feature and function of a living body. They are not exactly in the cause and effect relationship as in the mechanical or material objects in the world. Because every mind is unique, private and inaccessible by all other minds, as well as perceiving, reasoning, feeling and inferring on the world, other minds and the self etc etc.

Mind needs body to exist and operate, however, body doesn't cause mind for its operations.
Body is another object of mind's perception.

I would imagine this can be proposed as a sort of argument against a classical theistic god — Brenner T

Yes, it sounds a good idea. :up:

Philosophers of biology are asking whether life and mind are two aspects of the one phenomenon, and whether it is causal in a different way to physical causation. — Wayfarer

Of course they are different causation. Body gives the biological basis to mind, and that is all there is to it. We can see bodies with no mind i.e. the unconscious or sleeping folks, but we can never see mind without body unless you are into the psychic esoteric occult world.

Once mind comes into consciousness, it is caused by various other mental operations such as perception via sensory organs, reasoning and inference, memories, imagination and reflection. Once mind is operational, it also perceives bodily states and conditions, which can be cause for the mental events such as anxieties, joy and fear, pleasure and pain etc.