Yes, but who would be making the psychological assessments? — Sapientia

Maybe a psychologist could do it?

Or do we have have computers that can do that now? — Sapientia

That would at least be impartial and unbiased.

It would increase the risk of sexual predation on vulnerable youths. — Sapientia

How so? In what way could it increase the level of "predation"?

You've come up with the bright idea of fixing an imperfect system by replacing it with a weaker alternative — Sapientia

How is it possible to state that something that has never been tried is weaker than the present unfair system? How did you make the comparison?

What you're suggesting is a bit like trying to fix leaking roof by demolishing the house. — Sapientia

It is about time it was done as well. A system that discriminates against people needs to be removed and replaced.
At least my method would make a complete sex education for everyone obligatory so no one could claim that "I did not think she could get pregnant and she never told it it was possible"

I think that that's a terrible idea. I think that you'd have priests, scout leaders, and youth football coaches quitting their jobs en masse to apply for this job. — Sapientia

I think I specified that it would be a psychological test and that there would not be a practical part to it. And you forgot to mention politicians.

Not so much of a question type test, but more in line with psychological development and maturity. Obviously there would be a part of it that would question the person's knowledge about the risks and consequences of sex would have to be included, but it would be more important from my point of view to evaluate their ability to make rational decisions.
And I don't think that there should be a practical section to the test. — Sir2u

Although charle's usually a dumbass, he said harder, not impossible. Finding an instance of mass murder that doesn't involve semi-automatic rifles doesn't make the regulation of semi-automatic rifles a moot endeavor. — Buxtebuddha

Did I say anywhere that it was? I really do not remember saying that I think anyone and everyone should have automatic guns. I am not sure but in England it is probably easier to obtain what you need to make a bomb than it is to acquire a gun.

What I have said is that there is an issue regarding the rights of the people, an issue about the implementation and enforcement of any laws, and an issue about what qualifications someone should have to be allowed to have a gun.

So are you also in favour of people having bombs??? LOL — charleton

If you actually learned to read you would see that I did not in any way imply that I am in favor of people having bombs. But I suppose that is too much to ask for.

If a person wants to kill others he will find a way to do it. And that does not mean that I am in favor of people having automatic weapons either. I was simple pointing out that there is more than one way to kill a lot of people if that is what the person wants to do. Don't blame the hammer for the nail that is put in the wrong place.

Like I said: You are making a fool of yourself. — charleton

The kettle talking about the pan or am I following your example?

My point is that children, by definition, are not adult thinkers. — tim wood

Right, they are not. But that does not mean that they don't think.

And "should not" should not be confused with, "Do not!" Children know which is which, so don't confuse them. — tim wood

And here is an example of them thinking. As you say they do know the difference.

Most kids are smart enough from an early age to tell the difference between what is good and bad. Even without cultural influences that they are too young to understand. I will try to find the paper I read a while ago about this but for now here is an article from everyone's favorite source.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1275574/Babies-know-difference-good-evil-months-study-reveals.html

Just making a fool of yourself — charleton

Ditto.

People with automatic weapons tend to be capable of exterminating several children quite easily.
People without guns find it much harder to kill children. — charleton

Tell that to the Manchester bomber, he could not find a gun because they are forbidden in England.

Anyway, to proceed we need to keep track of what "sex" we're talking about, which is, I think, not developmentally appropriate child play-sex, but rather more like what adults call sex, which by its name suggests that children can't do it - notwithstanding whether the child makes a good job of it or not. — tim wood

What exactly do you mean when you say "a twelve year old can't do it"?

And you missed an option - why did you miss it? - because Mom and Dad love me; I trust them; and they told me not to, that I shouldn't. So I won't. — tim wood

No I did not miss it, the last one includes that. Where do you think kids should get their knowledge and advice from, mom and dad, right. But as you said earlier.

"Should not," too often means can. — tim wood

Most parents either tell their kids that they cannot and had better not do it, or the leave the decision up to the kid to make. Hoping all the while that they have enough knowledge on the topic and that things wont turn out all screwed up.

An example is perhaps simplest: your twelve-year-old hears your advice and your beliefs about promiscuity (no imperative), makes her own decision, goes out and contracts Aids or gets pregnant, or fathers a child. — tim wood

Does a twelve year old Stay away from sex because they are

too scared of mom and dad finding out and them getting angry with her?
too scared of catching something or getting pregnant?
too ignorant about it, has no real idea what it is all about?
has considered all of the information given to her and decided to wait a while.

I for one would hope the last to be true.

But I am very interested to hear other interpretations, and the sentence is very open to it. — Mind Dough

It is impossible to be alone and nothing does not exist. Thus they are not.

How could God create imperfection? — bahman

Maybe he made the perfect mistake?

Or maybe it is only humans that see them as imperfections.

Or made he did not create anything at all and the imperfections came about just as the perfections did.

If you want to be taken seriously don't quote the Daily Fail. They are top of the list for reporting inaccuracies in the UK. — charleton

Whatever.

Ignorant, but not stupid. — tim wood

Ignorance is not knowing.
Stupidity is being aware that you are doing something wrong and going ahead and doing it anyway.

It is scary sometimes when you look back at the things you did. But those same things have made you what you are.

I for one would not bother going back and change things if I was given a chance. I am happy with who I am.

In some ways think I kind of fall into the category you mentioned regarding those who have to figure things out for themselves, but unfortunately it took me a long time to do so and in the process I was (e.g.) a mediocre student when I could have been exceptional, a slightly better than average athlete when I could have been much better, etc. If I had someone behind me pushing me I think the trajectory of my life may have been much different, probably even much better.

Not that I completely regret the path I've taken, but I did make some poor choices that I look back on with a sense of utter disbelief. Who was that young man who did those dumb things? Yeah, that was me. I see the person I've turned out to be, I compare that with my youthful self, and the contrast is pretty extreme. Frightening even if I'm being honest. — Erik

That sounds like I wrote it.
We hardly ever had supervision when I was growing up, mum and dad told us that we should not do this or that because of what might happen if we did. And they were not shy about being graphical in their descriptions of what could happen. Like most kids we paid attention to some things and ignored other things. I don't remember making the same mistake twice though and it was not because we got punished for doing things.

As a teen living in southern Louisiana, I and most of the kids around where I lived were like Huck Finn. We spent lots of time out on the bayous and lakes, none of the parents were overly worried about that because they made sure that the kids learned to swim early and taught them how to use boats. We built and rode go carts and mini bikes with lawnmower engines and had a few accidents. But we figured why it had happened and were careful to make sure it did not happen again. Sometimes we got into trouble, but every time we did we had to admit that we had been warned by the adults. I screwed up my leg and almost 50 years later still suffer from it, but what hurt more at the time was my friend's dad saying "I told you that would happen". I rode bikes many times after that and still do occasionally but I have never made that mistake again.
I remember when I got caught stealing cigarettes from my dad, I was almost 10. He did not say that we were doing anything wrong but invited us to join him and gave us a box each to smoke. An hour later and green around the edges my brother gave up smoking for life. I carried on a few more years until I ran out of money one day for bus fair but had a full box of smokes. Never smoked again.

There is a saying that I am rather fond of:
"He who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.
He who has never tried anything new has not lived a life but has participated in an existence"

Childhood is a time for exploring the world, for experiencing things and finding out about yourself. Too many kids nowadays have no idea about these things because the are coddled up and protect from everything. They have little idea about their own abilities and limitations.
They have not been allowed to find out the consequences of their actions because they are not allowed to act. Many parents prefer to have a bold sitting playing video and drinking soda instead of actually doing something because they are scared that the poor little darling will make the wrong choice and be hurt physically or mentally.
The parent of one of my students told me a few years ago that her son had not done a homework assignment because she had gotten home very late. Turned out that she would not let him do the work by himself in case he got it wrong. How the fuck will that poor kid survive in the real world.

It is a well known fact that telling kids not to do things does not mean that they will not do it. If they think they are big enough to do something they will try. What kids need is knowledge, not a bunch of rules that are easy to ignore and the chance to learn from their mistakes as well as from their successes.

And if there is one thing that does not fit into this it is a specific age limit for being allowed to act.

I've got the impression that in this thread no proper distinction has been made or maintained among rights, abilities, and capabilities. — tim wood

Do children that are underage for something have any rights in that area? For example, what rights does a 12 year old have about alcohol?
What abilities would a 14 year old need for sex?
What capabilities does a 13 year old need to be allowed to drive a car?

Do you practice what you preach? — tim wood

Yes I do.

Or as a parent do you routinely usurp your children's "rights" when you think it best to do so? — tim wood

Which rights could be usurped if they are underage? Even if you think your 17 year old kid is mature enough to be in a sexual relationship, the law says it cannot be allowed.

I am going to bed now so toodle loo.

Hasta mañana.

I don't need more people telling me to be positive! — Lone Wolf

I was not telling you to be positive, I was commending you for being so.

Good job that, being positive instead of being negative.

Cuz if you don't then you'll never make it to Friday. :razz: — Lone Wolf

Good point. :up:

Just gotta keep going... lol. — Lone Wolf

Why?

We are halfway to the weekend....yippee! — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Yep, at the belly button. :smile:

Yes, we can deny a young adult's right to choose what to do with their own body until they, alone, are capable of handling the consequences of their actions both foreseen and unforeseen. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Well Tiff, you can at least try to deny them the right. And then they will go behind your back and do it anyway. Which would be worse because they would lose the benefit of knowledge and support that adults are supposed to give children.

It should be the adults job to prepare their kids for adulthood in all senses. It is not right that adults deny them things until they are 18 or 21 and them say "Go ahead now, on your own."

I still think that deny anything until a specific age is reached does more harm than good. Simply because mother nature will eventual take over and the desires will rule the day. Whether it is about sex, booze, drugs or even gambling, the best prevention to bad things happening is education. Ignorant people are famous for doing more stupid things than educated ones.

Kids being made aware of the consequences of their actions beforehand are less likely to do things. Kids that are made aware of and understand the reasons for not doing something should then be able to make a reasonable decision for themselves.

Why are there so many teen mothers around? Because they believed the guy that wanted to screw them that they would not get pregnant the first time. Because they had been told by their classmates that you cannot get pregnant if you do it standing up. Because their stupid parents never told them about sex and its results. And lots of other dumbassed ideas I have heard from students over the years.
Do you think that all of those teen mothers would have let it happen if they had been properly educated?

Ass an adult, education is the key to deciding what you want to do in your life. Why should it be less for a young boy or girl?

Why do you omit the next clause? — tim wood

Because I find no reason to comment on it.

I believe that same-age sex, without force or coercion and with mutual "consent," should be free from legal scrutiny. — tim wood

A lot of sex happens between preteens and also early teens, so if they are the same age and there is no force or coercion and with mutual "consent" sex would be alright? It is funny to think that the teen years in when kids suffer from peer pressure more than at any other time. Most of the time it is not even an individual that coerces them into having sex but the groups the associate with.

A lot of people would disagree with that idea because they would say that they are not mature enough to understand the consequences of their actions.

A true age of consent should not be a blanket number of years covering everyone. It should take into consideration not just their needs, desires and the ability to understand what they are doing but what would actually be needed to make sure they live a fulfilling life.

Why not change gun laws? — David Solman

Changing laws does not necessarily mean that the people will change their way of life. The laws have to be enforced before they can start the process. Any ideas about how they could enforce a gun ban?

Why are you people so ignorant, — David Solman

This implies that the people do not know about the problem as you call it. That is not true. They are all well aware that the shit hits the fan sometimes. The main problem is that it affects so few of the population. And if as you say it is the people that use the guns that are the cause then it is such a minority of the people that no one feels guilty because some idiot used a gun wrongly.

Make it safer, more secure so that this doesn't keep happening. It's the obvious thing to do. — David Solman

.I keep asking exactly how this can be done and as far as I know no one has come up with a workable solution.

Are you really saying that the laws on guns are perfect the way it is currently? — David Solman

I doubt that anyone is saying that. Almost everyone thinks that something should be done to stop these disturbed people going this kind of thing.

Speak English Please — René Descartes

n'way i'mz a gonna tahk all preddy jus fer u man.

u's gotta ged yo sef a education.

:razz:

Most musics is philosophical in some way.

Some glories the good of a culture, some protests the bad. And some just makes the makers and fans more stupid.

Rape is defined as non-consensual sex. Having sex with someone lacking the ability to consent is rape. — Hanover

As I stated earlier, this is what a test would have to be designed to do. Find out if the person actually has the ability to consent to having sex.

So it's rape if I have sex with a 50 year old who has unliscensed sex? — Hanover

If she or he is not capable of making a rational informed decision the yes, you can rot in prison.

Ummm yuck. I can't get aboard your victim blaming. — Hanover

I am not blaming anyone. Just stating a fact. Many young people engage in sexual activities because they want to.

No where have I talked about rape, coercion, or any other type of unacceptable behavior. I just suggested a method of deciding upon the age of consent. Personally I believe that the basic idea that one sock fits all sizes is great, for socks. But it does not work for kids and their sex lives.

Basically I think that most of the things teenagers have to wait for till a certain age should be looked at more closely. The age that they can buy booze being one of the most ridiculous. It should be a minimum of at least twenty five.

if you cant see that the accessibility of guns is the problem here than you're just being stupid. — David Solman

Exactly where did I state that the availability of guns is not the problem? Maybe you should read the posts before replying to them.

id suggest you read the article before posting here. — David Solman

And just who the hell are you to tell me what to do, but please do take your own advise.

If you cannot see the need to capitalize your writing then you must be rather ignorant of things like basic grammar and punctuation as well as common courtesy and manners.

Work this through then. Bob's been arrested for statutory rape, so he puts the girl on the stand and proves she's mature, or not, and if the jury sides with him, he goes home, but if not, he goes to prison. Bob goes free after having sex with a street wise 14 year old but Joe goes to prison for having sex with a naïve 22 year old? — Hanover

First of all we are talking about a test to decide whether a person is old enough to engage in sexual activities with other people, not rape.

My idea would be applied before the act, not after. Much like acquiring a drivers license. A sort of preventive measure if you like. And it would be applied to both sexes, not just females. Most males under 18 would probably fail it though due to lack of maturity.

Rape shield statutes specifically protect rape victims from having their sexual past presented at trial. Are in favor of eliminating those so that juries can consider the background of the victim, despite the fact that no rape victim with an extensive sexual past would ever want to press charges? — Hanover

Again, not relevant to my idea of a test.

My point here is that laws have to be clear and let the public know what to expect and what is expected of them. Since the passage of the test you propose generally will follow age, it seems to make sense to base these laws on age instead of case by case bases, — Hanover

While there should be a minimum age somewhere in there it would not be a deciding factor in each case, as your own example of the wise and naive young ladies shows.

especially considering the scrutiny the victim will be forced to undergo at trial and the uncertainty the accused will have in knowing who they can have sex with. — Hanover

Again here you go towards rape and victims, not age of consent which I was discussing. And apart from underage sex being called statuary rape there is quiet often a bit of willingness and even wantonness involved on the part of the victim.

Instead of Judgement day we can have Groundhog Day. — René Descartes

De done got dat one ahready man.

What is the relevance of statements like this — andrewk

A lot of people posting here think that banning guns will solve the problem of people killing other people, I am just pointing out that it is not true. They are the ones that use the fallacy.

It is maybe true that the Florida nut might have killed fewer people, but he would have killed using any method he could. What would have happened if he had taken a nail bomb instead of a gun?

It looks like an undiluted use of the Nirvana Fallacy — andrewk

There is no such thing as Nirvana. At least not for the living.

why not hedgehogs? — CuddlyHedgehog

Because they are almost extinct now due to people tearing down hedges. And they are not as cuddly as groundhogs.

What might be a few questions? — tim wood

Not so much of a question type test, but more in line with psychological development and maturity. Obviously there would be a part of it that would question the person's knowledge about the risks and consequences of sex would have to be included, but it would be more important from my point of view to evaluate their ability to make rational decisions.
And I don't think that there should be a practical section to the test.

Driving is maybe more dangerous than sex, but all you need to do in most places is reach a certain age and pass a test. Then you can drive a very dangerous weapon of mass destruction.

It all depends on your abilities to handle certain situations.

How about we institute a sex license test? And forget the age limit.

what is the next species to dominate the planet going to be like do you think? — CuddlyHedgehog

Groundhogs.

Every responsible gun owner wishes that idiots could be kept away form guns.

As far as I have been able to research, the mass shootings have been carried out by people that the government should have prevented from accessing guns.

That being said, just how far can any government go in restricting access to guns?
I think that it is about as feasible as preventing people access to cars. And there are many cases of underage drivers killing people with "borrowed" or stolen cars.

Laws are only as useful as the governments ability to enforce them. How many more cops would they need to enforce a ban on guns in the USA?

That video is so 60's early 70's.

Ban the bomb and look after the world replicas.

So full of good intentions.

How many old hippies turned into car, gun and fertilizer salespeople? I know a couple that specialize in old car repairs and one that produces and sells plastic products.

Back then we had good intentions and these kids still do.

Don't get me wrong, I am against violence of all kinds, not just gun violence. I was there shouting make love not war as well. But it really does take more than that to make a difference, how many countries have actually banned atomic bombs?

I wish them all the luck in the world and seriously hope they manage to do something about the problem. But, how many of the people in the audience had guns and how many are prepared to give them up? How far would the young lady go to defend her point of view?

Whether or not the constitution actually says that the people can or should own guns is not something that I can really say, but i do believe that the people believe this to be true. They really believe in the right to do so and that whatever infringement upon that right is the beginning of of the decline of their rights. If one right is taken away then the others will eventually follow.

It is true that some countries have had success banning the right to bear arms and own guns, but none of them has the situation that the USA has as a starting point. And none of them has had a total success, only reductions in the crime rate.

Here's a great American: — Banno

Did you hear the part where she clearly says that they knew the kid and that he had mental health problems?
Did you hear where she clearly stated that he would have not have killed as many with a knife?
But he would have killed, because he was the problem.

I have never said that I agree with people killing others with guns, but people who are going to kill, will kill.

https://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/asia/china-railway-attack/index.html

Slow down when typing, fellas. Do you not see the caps lock screwing up your messages? — Thorongil

Yes I saw the problem, it was almost as prominent as a total lack of capitalization.

Sorry, I forgot to add this.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/crimeinenglandandwales/yearendingseptember2017