I just take the philosophy behind democracy for granted, and your objection reminds me I should not do that. Let's see. I like the notion that we are all equal under the sun versus the notion that a god has favorite people. I like the idea that we establish government to protect our human rights and that includes the rights of women. I love the idea of rule by reason based on logos/ reason, the controlling force of the universe, versus the mentality of thousands of years ago when humans were pretty barbaric. I think the notion of conscience, coming out of science, is very important.

There is a start for why I think my sisters in Afghanistan deserve our assistance. To me, if they want to live as we do enough to put their lives on the line then it is just human decency that we continue to defend them, instead of leaving them to be slaughtered by religious people who do not have very good human values and treat women very badly.

I think there is a serious problem with thinking democracy is a political thing that started in the US. Democracy is a philosophical thing that may have officially been manifested as a political thing in Athens but the set of values certainly was not exclusive to Athenians.

We still be products for industry. Here is what happens right know: Just go for school to learn the principles of basic. Then, choose a career. Afterward (supposedly) you get a job. Congratulations you are just another brick in the wall. Pay the bill and hmm... use the public services (?) because States want to make us think this is “success”.
How we ended up here? Easy. The governors and government. It is the most powerful aspect in today’s society. If they control education they control everything. They are so clever because we are in an era where is more easier the access for education. So they do not want the vocational education. If you are more open to read you question everything, even the governors... and they do not want so.

I wish we can go back to liberal education. This is literally where works so good in the social welfare states as Norway for example. — javi2541997

You got it but it is not because this is what governors and representatives want for us. They were lead to believe what we have is essential, just the same as most citizens believe we must have the education we have. Agreeing with me about the importance of liberal education puts you in the minority and those who represent us in government are humans just like you and me.

I say those words because I have tried so hard to raise awareness of what was done and why and I hit the wall of people being sure we must have the education we have and jumping on me for thinking public education should return to education for good moral judgment. You missed what Christianity has to do with the mess we are in! Christianity plays a big role in this mess. German education for technology left moral training to the church and both the military interest and Christian interest are best served by leaving moral training to the church. Both the military and the church want people who do not question and obey. You may have noticed, Bible study is limited to studying the Bible, and excludes other religions and philosophy. You are invited to ask questions as long as all your answers come from the Bible.

Edit :lol: I just wrote a short book and deleted it. There is a lot to say. The US adopted the German model of bureaucracy and their model of education for technology. We replaced classic philosophy with German philosophy. Now the US is as seriously in need of psychoanalysis as much as some whackos on the streets.

"How can I know myself"? — Nikolas

You might try Jean Shinoda Bolen, M.D. books, "Gods in Everyman" and "Goddesses in Everywoman". The Greek gods and goddesses are archetypes of our different human types. Bolen's books tell us more about ourselves than we thought we could know because we can see ourselves in the gods and goddesses.

In my youth, I was Persephone, the maiden stage of a female's life. When we marry some follow the path of Hera (wife) and some the path of Demeter (mother). Demeter and Hestia became very important to me. When my children were grown and out of the home, I shifted to Athena and have been a teacher and defender of democracy ever since.

What is really surprising is Bolen's explanations include the different stages of our lives and the positive and negative sides of each archetype. Here we can see how our childhoods influenced the other stages of our life and the lives of people who know.

They prepare us how to work and have an income but not asking ourselves what is going on — javi2541997

A liberal education encourages us to ask the big questions and before 1958, in the US, all children had liberal educations. The purpose of education was well-rounded individual growth. In 1917 vocation education as add to public education and this was a wonderful thing! It meant having better jobs and better pay and moving into cities with more to offer. It meant developing a middle class and an economy that provides so much for citizens our forefathers would be thrilled by our success. But adding vocation education did not change the priority purpose of education.

The military technology of the second world war changed the purpose of education. We began preparing the young to be products for industry. The 1958 National Defense Education Act had a 4 year limit but instead of returning to education for well-rounded individual growth, education for the military-industrial complex consumed us. We are now what we defended our democracy against, and our Capital Building is an ugly fortress no longer open to the public.

That is sad. I am an old hippie and as I watch the rioters and all that anger, I want to hand out flowers and sing songs that lift our spirits. "All we need is love, love. Love is all we need is need." :flower:

You got a very flowery translation. You don't strike me as a huggy kissy kind of person. Take a look at the first verse in some of the other translations too. You can find them at the link I gave. Stephen Mitchell's is one good one. They are much more hard hitting. The Tao Te Ching is an engineering textbook to teach you how to build reality. Of course, I'm an engineer. It's that old hammer/nail thing. — T Clark

Ah go on, just because I chose the translation with pictures doesn't mean it is too flowery. :lol: I am afraid you are right about me not being a huggy kissy person. That spreads disease, yuck. But in my private life, in solitude by the river, I am flooded with happiness, and I am good with the matter of my physical form dissimulating and becoming one with nature. While walking down the river path, I have no desire to hit anything or anyone with a hammer. :grin:

My father was an engineer. He worked on the Apollo that landed on the moon. He was in favor of language that was straight and to the point. That is fine for guys and women who want to be like them, but I enjoy being a girl. A bit dreamy. :grin:

Don't be afraid to call out and oppose supernatural appeals to bigotry where they happen. It is best understood this way: 'I don't hate you, I hate your beliefs.' — Tom Storm

I had to look up the meaning of bigotry.

obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group. — Oxford

I think coming down too hard on religious people instead of being respectful and open-minded might qualify as bigotry? It is about being the kind of person I want to be. I don't want to be obstinate or unreasonable, but for sure, I feel that way often.

No point in setting up faith as a magical word. It is just belief without evidence and works no differently than in the case of those people who thought Hitler was delivering them a magnificent world based on blood magic and race. Faith is the excuse people give for believing in something when they have no good reasons. — Tom Storm

I disagree and will continue to argue "faith" can have a magical effect including healing us and achieving more than we believe we can. The nature of faith proves to religious people, and especially Christians, that what they believe is true. Faith can be very empowering and I don't think we should underestimate that. So can self-confidence.

This is true but what of it? All religions commit atrocities and justify it with appeals to truth or faith. There is no necessary correlation between religious belief and moral behaviour. The history of our world is one of religions energetically basing their actions on choreographed bigotry and human rights violations. Hardly surprising when the only shaky evidence for God is in ancient books and outrageous claims. — Tom Storm

Yes, there is a necessary correlation between belief and behavior because the belief is a point of view that determines how we see it and our behavior is a reaction to how we see it. Which makes your statement of choreographed bigotry true.

Our planet, and life, is reason enough to believe in a god. The problem is with the mythology not the notion of a force beyond our comprehension. Personally, I am strongly in favor of having reverence and a sense of awe. Some appreciate worshipping in nature rather than a church. When we can do this with reverence, our hearts can be flooded with happiness and when we feel good we desire to do good.

You may have missed my point - the Tao Te Ching is short. It's a corollary to Occam's Razor - if you have two books which are otherwise the same, read the shorter one. It's not the same as the I Ching. The I Ching is much older. I've never read or used it. Here's a link to a whole bunch of different translations of the Tao Te Ching:

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

I started with Stephen Mitchell's version. I like it a lot. I've learned since that it is very Americanized. Some of the nuance get's left out, but ancient Chinese nuance can be really obscure. Ellen Marie Chen. Addiss & Lombardo.

I was grabbed in the first verse. I've known others who took longer. First rule of book gifts or recommendations - never ask if the person has read the book. I won't. — T Clark

I bought both the Tao Te Ching and another I Ching. I am so looking forward to comparing them.

The first thing in the Tao Te Ching book I read said,

The Tao has no name
it is a cloud that has no shape.

If a ruler
follows it faithfully,

Heaven and earth make love,
And sweet dew-rain love,
The people do not know why,
But they are gathered together like music. — Man-ho Kwok Martin Palmer Jay Ramsay

Reminds me of some of the Bible and Amenhotep's prayer and the Native American creator.

:pray: :heart: in tune with Tao is much more than factual correctness and sometimes words just are not good enough to convey meaning. I think it is pretty Asian, in general, to think our brains chatter too much and that certainly distorts or completely blocks our experience of life.

2. If and when philosophers or anyone else came up with a world-saving idea, then they would also have to sell the idea to the world-- much harder an endeavour than finding a solution. Would need to tackle, fight and overcome prejudice, ingrained cultural norms, and personal preferences and beliefs... not possible. — god must be atheist

Very true! Because of the US war with Afghanistan and a huge investment, half of Afghanistan has been Americanized and brought into the modern world, and half has not. When we pull our troops out, other countries will likely do the same, and there will be a blood bathe as the more barbaric Aghanstanians fight to take back their country and the way of life people had when the Bible was written, complete with beheading some people and stoning others. The best fighters in this war are the women who want the equality they have gained. They are our sisters and we are about to turn our backs on them and their children.

Well, philosophers did come up with science, so there's that. — Banno

That comment is vitally important to this discussion! Are all those people living below the poverty level born to be inferior people or can science detect other causes of poverty that a democracy should address? Up till now, people have functioned on a lot of false notions, and science is destroying them. Science is vital to our democracy. And here is the problem with Trump and his followers who have their lives rapped around a myth that is not supported by science. That myth has come to us through history and when we see it, we might be shocked by how long it has taken to be the ideal of democracy that came out of the Enlightenment, not the Bible. The Jews and Greeks had a war when Greeks attempted to rule over them, because the Greeks did not respect the line of inheritance that determined a person's position in life, but gave jobs to anyone who appeared to have the merit necessary to doing the job.

Mass education and merit hiring is changing our social order.

↪Athena
I'm interested in how you interpret the transfer of wealth consideration and what are the mechanisms that will cause this to happen. Please start a topic on that!
Otherwise my observation it is less because people are inherently amoral, more it is of where we are in the reality we individually are able to conjure for ourselves. Some people live day-to-day because they must, others are part of some sub-culture that is given to certain attitudes, still others have time to consider larger topics- these are not always in sync. — Proximate1

I would stand another thread, but I don't want my thoughts separated from the change in our thinking.
I am blown away by all the covid assistance that has happened and will happen. I have been through a few recessions and nothing like this has happened. In the past, the auto industry was bailed out and the banks were bailed out, but not the people. I remember Reagan saying we did not have homeless people just bums, and I remember how the poor were scapegoated for our economic problems that were caused by OPEC embargoing oil and bad industrial judgment. During that economic crisis when families needed help, we cut public assistance by increasing the requirements for assistance, making it harder to get assistance. Please, doesn't anyone else remember what happened?

During the Reagan administration, there was a huge shift in wealth and power. Clinton tried to turn this around, but another economic crash took us down again, and nothing was done to help families save their homes, and the media did not present the reality as it is being presented today. How the media is reporting this crash puts the blame on the cause of the crash, not the victims of the crash. That is a hugely important difference. The housing crisis came up as people victimized by banks, but the banks were bailed out not the victims. I think that disaster set us up for a different consciousness this time around?

Over the years I have marveled at how much assistance has increased and all the criticism! Never has any society enjoyed the abundance we have today and we might be mismanaging it, but we are new at this. We never had the ability to do what we can today. We are having a learning experience and I am fascinated with what is happening now and how this will influence our ideas about what government can and should do and what it should not do. THIS IS WHERE THE PHILOSOPHY COMES IN. What do we want of government of the people, by the people, for the people?

Nightly, I am bombarded by the injustices committed against Native Americans, the Irish, Italians, Asians, people of color, and women. This never happened before! Like our delusion of greatness is being turned upside down, and we have a lot of anger raising. Some are angry because change can not happen fast enough. Some are angry because their delusion of the greatness of the US is being destroyed. THIS IS WHERE THE PHILOSOPHY COMES IN. Why, all of a sudden, are we so focused on injustices and the democratic goal of equality? What happened to HIS STORY and the belief that what we have, depends on a few great men?

I need to stop freaking out about religion and start being more considerate of others, and you have my permission to remind me of that.

I don't know if you are familiar with Lao Tzu, who wrote the Tao Te Ching. He was the anti-Confucius. Here's my sales pitch for the Tao Te Ching - it is the founding book of a major school of philosophy and you can read it in an hour. You get just as much spiritual credit as you would for reading the Bible or Book of Mormon. — T Clark

T Clark — T Clark

:rofl: I think I rejected Confucius and the Book of Mormon at about the same time, both because of the sexism! :shade: I have since renewed my interest in Confucius, but I doubt if I will ever regain interest in the Book of Mormon. Believing some people have dark skin because "God" cursed them is a little too offensive for me. :rofl: At this time of my life, I have read enough to conclude not even great thinkers are right all the time so I have a renewed interest in some philosophers.

Now if by Tao Te Ching you mean I Ching, I had two I Ching books from different authors and fear I lost both of them in a move. Maybe that is something I should do today, buy another one. Oh dear, that means going to a book store and that is like an alcoholic going to the bar to get a glass of water. :worry: But heck, if that is what you are talking about, I have to have the book for the discussion, right? :grin:

Which quality of faith do you refer to? For example Gurdjieff taught that:

Conscious faith is freedom. Emotional faith is slavery. Mechanical faith is foolishness.

As important as it is, how many have ever contemplated the difference? — Nikolas

The only faith I know of is a blind belief. Without it there is doubt. I don't see the logic in doubting what we believe as equalling freedom? I have no idea what a mechanical faith would be? Believing something without questioning it? I don't think I have done that since I was 8 years old. However, I am pretty sure gravity pulls things to earth and I stopped jumping off of the top of the swing, and buildings, with the hope of flying. :lol:

I am so glad that you are keeping up the discussion. It is interesting that you do prefer a literal interpretation of the Bible. I am a bit more on the esoteric level, but I think that there is a whole spectrum of possibilities, ranging from the exoteric and esoteric.

I have not forgotten the thread I started, but need time and creation of new threads, because the matters discussed are extremely complex and need careful thought. However, I think that you are doing so well, in keeping discussion alive. — Jack Cummins

Whoops did I forget the little word "not" again? I hate a literal interpretation of the Bible and I hate it when I forget the word "not".

Your question for this thread is particularly important to me. I mean, really, really important to me! As I see it, we can not have liberty and democracy without the correct education. For me, that does not mean education for technology and leaving moral training to the Church. :gasp:

How much fun to think about what I think with the replies to this thread. Especially with the thread Philosophy has failed to create a better world and

T Clark — T Clark

post in that thread forcing me to think about what I think.

That is I believe philosophy is essential to right thinking and right thinking is essential to liberty and democracy and must be a part of education. :sweat: that is a lot of mental work and there is nothing better I can do with my life than do as the Greeks attempted to do- to get it right. :lol:

Philosophy, in particular western philosophy, has always seemed like a stone wall to me. Hard, rigid, and overbuilt but fun to bounce balls, my ideas, off. The stoniest of the stones is Kant. There are some philosophers I like sometimes - e.g. Emerson and James.

On the other hand, I've met other people like you who were saved by philosophy. I must admit I don't get it, but I've come to respect it and accept that it works. For me, it's like jazz. It's not my music and I don't really get it, but enough people I respect value it that it would be silly and graceless to argue. — T Clark

Perfect. It is like I don't get religion. Weird isn't it? Some people want only natural health foods and exercise, some want pot and some want beer or wine. "To each his own", my grandmother would say. I had no idea that there could be any reason for not liking Kant and Weber. After almost worshipping Cicero, I have found fault in him. I did not like Confucious because he is so sexist, but I did like his explanation of the importance of putting effort into being the kind of human being we want to be. I really want to be a happy and loving person who makes my grandchildren and their children feel good. I have a lot of work to get there for the same reason you find fault with Western logic being like a stone wall.

Oh, good. I get to show off my erudition. This is from Stephen Mitchell's translation of the Tao Te Ching:

When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos.

If I may interpret the interpretation. The Tao is the unspeakable oneness that comes before thought. Goodness, in this context, is Te, the expression of Tao in our lives. I think what Cicero and you are talking about is morality. Interpretation of the interpretation of the interpretation - What's right comes from inside us. — T Clark

Now, this is heaven! What a delightful contemplation! :heart: :flower: I will have to ponder it before attempting a response. But my knee-jerk reaction is "morality" is finding the good and choosing it because of my experience with moral stories and asking the child, "what is the moral of the story."

However, you also make me think about the lecture on the Greek Legacy I am listening to. For a period of time, the philosophers of Athens thought it impossible for a bad person to do good things. I do not agree with that. I do not see people as good or bad, but I think we are both.

I feel the same way. I see that I am one of the most fortunate people in the history of the world, even though there have been some really unhappy parts of my life. But I don't think that's really what's going on. I think it's what's inside us, you and me, that makes us, I don't like the word, optimists. There are many other people who live in the same world who cranky and unhappy and who blame this beautiful world. — T Clark

And that is where philosophy is important! But also good parenting and security are important. We are learning, being disadvantaged as a child, or traumatized, can have a lifelong negative effect. Perhaps some learn to deal with adversity better than others, and some childhood adversity may be important in developing coping skills for adult adversity? The only thing I am really sure of is philosophy made a huge difference in my life and for me, it is everything the Bible is for a Christian.

I am fine with the word "optimist" because when we are optimistic we open doors for good things to happen and when we are pessimistic, we can have a death grip holding those doors closed. It seems to me, right now, most people are nihilistic or pessimistic. Maybe when the pandemic passes our spirit will improve?

Experience (i.e. understanding-based competence), however, is developed through surviving and/or overcoming failure. — 180 Proof

:roll: That is a bit negative isn't it? And what does having an experience have to do with competence? Life is full of awesome experiences, like making love on the beach. Previous experience may make the present experience better but it is not required. :grin: And the experience can be a wonderful memory that lifts our spirits whenever we think of it.

Facts might be important, but perhaps even more important is the spirit of the moment. How we feel. Like if the wave hits at an intimate moment, the couple may think their experience was ruined, or they can grab their blanket and run from the wave laughing. Keeping in mind, this moment can be a long-term memory that again and again manifests feeling and that feeling will define the experience more so than facts.

Are you asking those questions for purely rhetorical purposes or are you genuinely curious?

So far in this discussion, I have not opposed your thesis but only remarked upon where your observations did not satisfy my understanding of matters. That does not mean I am representing Torquemada or apologizing for the sins of an institution. You said something was easy-peasy for Christians. It isn't for all of them. — Valentinus

My relationship with Christianity has changed many times over my lifetime. I went through a period when I believed it was a challenge that brought out the best in us and I still believe that is psychologically true, but I do not like literal interpretations of the Bible. I came to prefer Eastern philosophy/religion.

I do not recall ever having a concept of the City of God, but since you didn't answer the question I googled to see if it is mentioned in the Bible and I see it is, and after reading the explanation, I have a big problem with that notion because of the religious/political nature of it.

That's true. But there are questions that come out of this. Why is it that Christianity - and let's face it, so many religions worldwide - so effortlessly undertake evil actions?

Is it just a matter of believe oneself to be God's favourite? Might it not also be what happens when you think you have access to special knowledge that comes from an uncountable, extramundane source that is the origin of all morality. — Tom Storm

The Christians I know attempt to resolve every problem with prayers and they have complete faith that God/Jesus will answer their prayers. Obviously, if that is what one believes, God, will take care of everyone and all we need do is pray. Those who survive the hurricane, flood, landslide, or whatever, will be reassured God takes care of them. Those who don't, won't be here to worry about it. The religion is going to help in so many psychological ways, but it does not work as well as science. :lol: However, many Christians do not trust science and put their faith in God. When that can lead to thousands of people dying and suffering, I have a BIG problem with that!

My Christian friend kept approving of Trump and enjoyed believing her prayers helped him be "a good father to our country". She even approved of children being separated from their families and that was the last straw for me! Bottom line, faith has wonderful psychological effects, but it can also be the worse source of evil we have.

What a complex question. I think happiness is just moments we live along our lives. I going to sound pretty pessimistic but life in general is full of sadness. Even when you are getting older. So I guess this is why we are so obsessed to pursue happiness because it is so ephemeral — javi2541997

:lol: You all are reminding me of the years when I was lost in Hades. Hades is a place where we all must all go, from time to time, to get a sense of meaning. However, we should never go there without the help of the gods because it is so easy to get lost in Hades.

For a long time my life was so painful I really did not want to live and then I saw a cartoon of a man standing at the customer service desk in heaven saying, "I don't like life. Do you have something better to offer?".

I know suffering and maybe I am over-exuberant now because I can avoid it. Not that there is no pain in my life. But there is nothing I can do about the family problems. Everyone wants to make their own mistakes and they don't want to know what an old woman thinks. So instead of focusing on what can make me very unhappy, I focus on what can make me happy and that works. It is the benefit of no longer being responsible for family.

PS I would not know happiness if I had not stumbled onto philosophy! If it were not for philosophy I would still be one of the most miserable people on earth. I clawed my way out of Hades, thanks to philosophy and gaining a sense of purpose.

Lived, reflective, experience. — 180 Proof

And is that different from having knowledge?

↪TaySan
Ultimately philosophy is a personal orientation regarding our place in the universe. Since everyone is free to believe as they will it is unlikely that enough people will orient themselves in a way that will bring consensus on collective actions- no more than religion or politics can. — Proximate1

Well the US is about to experience a huge transfer of wealth. This is on top of feeding everyone, providing free medical care to many, subsidized housing, free education, affordable internet service, and instant communication with people around the world. How much more do people want?

My family has been very involved with the homeless, so it is not that I lack knowledge of less fortunate people, and am very thankful at this time I am not one of them. My granddaughter manages a camp for homeless people who have been given army tents, heat, and sanitation, and I am very proud of her. We are aware that what is being done is far short of what needs to be done, but compare to our past, what we are achieving today is pretty awesome. When I began advocating for the homeless, we had almost nothing for them and treated them like criminals. We have not been assuring people food until relatively recently. I see positive changes along with problems, but ignoring the good because of the bad, might be a mistake.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.....................................................

Do you believe that good moral behavior depends on good moral thinking? — T Clark

So you think Cicero was wrong about us choosing the right thing when we know what that is? Science is very important to knowing the right thing. What is the difference between knowledge and knowing the right thing?

:lol: It helps to read history. Compared to our past, we are very fortunate people. Perhaps where I live has a lot to do with my positive attitude. I gather other states do not take as good care of their citizens as the state that is my home. I live in a small city, large enough to provide the benefits of a city but not like L.A., California, where I grew up and would not return. And I am past the most difficult years. There was a time when my life was not nearly this good. I am a very fortunate person to have such a good life, in a small city with a beautiful river path that goes for many miles and I don't think there could be a better place to be than along the river, or if I want, I can sit on the beach and watch the tide roll in, just an hour away.

Hum, as I understand democracy it is constantly unfolding, preferably with the education the prepares each generation to resolve the problems of their time and that is not education for technology. Our most difficult problems today are human problems. The US had a Capitol Building that was open to the public because all citizens treated it like was almost sacred. It was not an armed fort. Bad actors have damaged our reality and the Spirit of America and if we do not resolve this problem with education, the democracy we were, will not be known to those born today.

I brought up the matter of taking responsibility as an objection to your statement: "That is, unlike Christians believing we must be saved by a supernatural power, our development is a matter of our own effort."

However one considers debates over being saved by works or faith, the command to love your neighbor as yourself requires that one become such a lover. While there are sharp disagreements amongst Christians, they all accept that the one who obeys the command will have to struggle and suffer for having done so.

Running through the many ways this effort is expressed is that one is revealed and witnessed as a result. There is no place to hide if one bears witness to themselves. The City of God compares the City of Men on the basis of this visibility. By their fruits you shall know them. The Imitation of Christ is a very personal devotion I cannot characterize. But it asks for a lot. Written as a Catholic reflection, it can be heard echoed in Kierkegaard's Works of Love. — Valentinus

The love thy neighbor as thy self doesn't seem to work so well when the other is different. We have not been too nice to those people who have a different faith or look different and do not know God and morals. :lol: The only people I know who were in favor of separating children from their families at the border were Christians. :rage: I am sorry but I can not tolerate people who think they are God's favorites and what they want is what God conveniently wants too. I am not sure if there have been any atrocities that were not justified by religious people?

City of God? Where is that? Jerusalem, Rome, someone's imagination? Like really who has been to the City of God and how do we know about it? How is it different from the good life people get to enter if their hearts weigh right when they are judged by Isis of Oris?

I am not sure if that is one of the mandates of Philosophy: to create a better world. There is a trend that subscribes to that, but I don't think philosophers do. The closest philosophers come to this, is moral philosophy, but that in and by itself tells you only (if at all successfully) how to behave morally, and not how to reduce carbon dioxide or how to reduce the accelerating population explosion.

So yes, the title is right, except philosophy never said it would do that. — god must be atheist

Never? I think it has been a goal of philosophy and the Enlightenment. Good moral thinking depends on knowledge of science. Cicero, we do the right thing when we know what it is. Maybe if the Bible had advanced knowledge of science, we would be doing better? I feel frustrated by our apparent failure to understand what science has to do with good moral judgment and democracy. From the time the West refound science and began improving on it, we have made incredible progress.

At least we are replanting trees with we cut them down, instead of waiting for God to give us our forest back.

Science and religion are just expressions of human nature projected onto a world where the don't, can't fit. Humanity doesn't have such a good history in the sense you mean. — T Clark

Wow, this is so on topic! We have both the good and the bad. :grin: Never before have so many people enjoyed so much security and so many pleasures, and developing technology holds out the hope that we can do even better than this.

Excuse me, I am a believer in the New Age and I get really excited about what is possible. I am sure this is the excitement many of the US founding fathers felt with their education in the classics. We have to acknowledge our past wrongs and the truth of what you said, but I think we also need to acknowledge our progress and the possibility that we can do better. I think we have created a better world.

Right now we might be in the Resurrection with archeologists, geologists and related sciences bring the past into the present. If reincarnation is a possibility, the human mass on earth today would be reincarnated souls, another possible form of Resurrection but not scientifically supported.

Now if we had not been thrown out of the Garden of Eden, the abundance of the Garden might have brought out the best in us, as abundance is bringing the best in us now. There are some pretty unpleasant things happening, but a lot of this is a demand that we do better. If we get education back on the enlightenment path we might come out of the present transition okay? But first, we have to do something about the nihilism we are dealing with now. Nihilism is probably part of the transition process.

happiness — javi2541997

How do you understand happiness? In the US because we turned our backs on the classics we think it is a frivolous pleasure. That is not what Jefferson meant by the "pursuit of happiness" when he wrote our Declaration of Independence separating the colonies from the king of England.

Coming from the classics the pursuit of happiness means gaining knowledge because knowledge is power and power leads to having things go our way but this is not self-centered because of the morality of cause and effect. As Socrates pointed out, if we make life unpleasant for others, sooner or later they will be our problem, and boy oh boy, the practice of slavery has lead to a serious problem in the US. That is exactly what Socrates was talking about. Too bad Jefferson and his peers ignored Socrates. :grimace:

I'm not a theist, but I don't see it that way. — T Clark

That appears to be the only argument we could have. I see a few nuggets of wisdom in the Bible but Creationism is not one of them. I don't think Christianity has such a good history, and today, to me it appears one of the worst problems we have. Not because Christianity is so bad, but without education in the classics, it is really bad. How people interpret the Bible depends largely on how they were educated. How we understand God depends a lot on if we are concrete thinkers and abstract thinkers.

I hate the mythology that Christianity and God's blessing is what made us so good great. Our history and the treatment of Native Americans, immigrants from China, Japan, Ireland, Italy, people of color, and women in general, has not been that good. Our greatness has been very worldly and it was built on exploiting human beings and taking from them what was not ours to take. This failure of philosophy is a failure to see the whole picture and storytelling that excluded our wrongs. This is a new day and we need to value philosophy to move ahead without doing more damage.

am not sure if that is one of the mandates of Philosophy: to create a better world. There is a trend that subscribes to that, but I don't think philosophers do. The closest philosophers come to this, is moral philosophy, but that in and by itself tells you only (if at all successfully) how to behave morally, and not how to reduce carbon dioxide or how to reduce the accelerating population explosion.

So yes, the title is right, except philosophy never said it would do that. — god must be atheist

In my world, which is probably different from everyone else's :lol: a moral is a matter of cause and effect and that makes destroying our planet immoral. In the US, we had education for good moral judgment but religion retarded our sciences and we were not working with the sciences essential to preserving our planet and having a high standard of living. That education was for everyone, not just those who choose liberal education at the college level and while we needed to prepare for a high-tech society, we made a mistake by dropping the education that turned everyone into more or less philosophical creatures. Now we have the science we need, but preparing everyone for a technological society, has short-circuited their ability to think and they no longer associate morals with cause and effect, so we continue to destroy our planet and put profit today above the future and health of our planet.

I am very impressed with your knowledge of Spinoza and his separation of vocational education and education for the humanities. However, I disagree with the notion that education must be one thing and not both. The argument for each side of this division is made in many books about education.

Technology advancements made vocational training very important but in the US and England, but it was ignored in favor of a classical education, the humanities. When we mobilized for the first world war, the mistake of ignoring vocational training was obvious because not only did industry need people with vocational training but so did the military!

Industry tried to close schools in the US as Europe had closed its schools during the war. It argued the war caused a labor shortage and they were not getting their money's worth because they still had to train new employees. Only a few years earlier child labor laws kept children out of industry, and industry lost its supply of really cheap labor.

Teachers argued an institution good for making good citizens is good for making patriotic citizens. The book of all the speeches at the 1917 National Education Association, explains all this and how education was used to mobilize the US for war and sustain the war effort.

So education for vocational training was added, but education for citizenship remained the priority purpose of education until the military technology of WWII. Clearly, we can have both. What is not so obvious to those who have not read the books about war and education is the US adopted so much of German bureaucracy and education and philosophy, it is now what defended its democracy against. A new commission is now looking into returning to education for citizenship. Such an education is the first-line defense against social problems and we seriously need to get back to that. It is the only way to have liberty and avoid becoming an authoritarian police state.

More to the point of this thread, we need to return to Greek and Roman classics and might want to question if storming the Capital Building has something to do with German philosophy?

A dictatorship of the proletariat? Am I reading you right? — fishfry

I am not sure but I think a dictatorship is rule by one person? At best, it might be a rule by one party. A democracy is rule by reason, and everyone has a part in the reasoning. Totally different from a dictatorship.

Completely agree with you, Sir. What a solid statement. It remembered me when politicians of Athens asked to the Sophist why they do not have the rule of governance and then answered "we are not here to solve the problems. We debate and theorise about these. Without them we cannot develop philosophy itself"
Nevertheless there are people who criticise Sophists. lol — javi2541997

The Sophists were equal to our education for technology. A totally changed purpose of education with a focus on being technologically correct, with the need to prepare men for bureaucratic positions resulting from Athens colonization of new territory and perhaps the natural result of focusing on proofs, a kind of word of God, and the evolution of democracy. A totally different way to perceive the value of a human being.

Whether or not technology has saved us is open to debate, but we'll leave that for now. Science by itself doesn't help anyone. It has to be turned into technology by engineering. Engineering is applied science.

And science is applied philosophy. — T Clark

Technology is not science. Humans have had technology since they lived in caves. The Egyptians obviously had technology but they did not understand universal truths, such as a triangle has three sides on earth and every other planet in the universe. As far as we know, not until the Greeks did philosophers start working on proofs. That is technology, plus philosophy, equals science. We understand not only what works but why it works.

Religion is a stumbling stone for science. Even today, Christians oppose the science of evolution and the 2012 Texas Republican agenda was to prevent teaching the higher-order thinking skills and teachers had to take Texas to court to end forcing teaching creationism as equal to science. We are not as controlled by the church as we once were but for thousands of years it has been a stumbling block. Since 1958 we have had education for technology and that is not education for science.

Liberal education was well-rounded education for well-rounded individual growth and independent thinking. It was the basis of education in the US until 1958 and we made a lot of progress before the military and industry hi-jacked education.

Individually, people are usually quite nice. We can be, sometimes, quite nice in large groups, too. Think of a church picnic. But it is when we get into large groups and are not nice, like the Republic Party or Nazi Party, that we become really awful. — Bitter Crank

That is interesting and it makes culture very important. Jefferson devoted himself to public education because he saw it as the way to make our republic in the US united and strong. That was the focus of our education until 1958. The National Defense Education Act ended the transmission of that culture and liberal education from the first grade on that lead to good moral judgment and left moral training to the church. A big mistake. Now we are not united and don't know morals have to do with liberty.

Things were not perfect back then, especially when it comes to racism. We should have stayed on task after the civil war to prevent the racist problem that is also a cultural problem. I think we still have important changes to make. No child should grow up in a neighborhood where people are killed on a regular basis and schools in those neighborhoods need to as well funded as all schools. This means doing something about poverty. People didn't move into cities for a welfare check. They moved to the city for industrial jobs and a better standard of living. The industry left and poverty is an economic problem that needs to be resolved. When we feel safe I think we behave better.

The theory being, that the powers that be needed to deflect attention from class issues, so they got everyone worked up about race. You ask the kids on campus what's wrong with society and they sace racism. They never notice the class issues, that the global elite are sucking all of the wealth of the nation and destroying the middle and working classes. — fishfry

Until we replace autocratic industry with democratic industry, I don't think any of us will have much meaningful power. When we gain power by being united by industry, perhaps then we can take on banking and politics.

Lives were much better after WWII for those who happened to survive it. But it is extremely true: Humans are just not very nice. Seriously. It always seems to surprise us when fresh evidence of our deep-down-awfulness is revealed. — Bitter Crank

:lol: That is not exactly how I would word things. I do not think of myself as a bad person, and doubt that many people think of themselves as bad people. Most of us are too busy with our own lives to know much about anyone else's. We are not exploiting people or taking advantage of them. We are just hanging in there doing the best we can to keep our heads above water.

I am not saying that wrongs were not done, but we are not the ones who did them, and in many cases we had no idea that injustice was happening, and if we did know of injustices, how many of us knew what to do to correct them? Do we vote on banking policy and industrial decisions? We might have more power, but we have done almost nothing to change the fact that we don't. Can we fall back on the example of Occupy? If there ever was a time of terrible injustice, the housing crisis and Occupy was one of those times, and Occupy was a huge failure. White folk could do nothing to say their own asses, so how many stones should throw at them for failing to resolve other social problems? Who knows how to make a real change? It is easy to blame others and to hate them, but it is not so easy to resolve problems.