Is there any differential in space and time separating the self and its thoughts? — ucarr

There isn’t any space in a thought, and if the self just is that which has thoughts, one is temporally inseparable from the other.
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….a) a thought is about the judgment of the self in reaction to a perception of the world — ucarr

I don’t think of judgement like that. The self judges, so it can’t be that the self is judged. Using your terms, I’d only admit to judgement as being the self’s manifest reaction to a perception.

…..b) a judging self is self-aware in its acts of judgment….. — ucarr

Tautologically true, but congruent with every other aspect of what the subject does….

…..and self-awareness requires a separation of self (…) from self….. — ucarr

I personally don’t agree with that; I find it a mischaracterization of self, in its irreducible sense. Self-awareness is redundant. Awareness presupposes self, and, self is necessarily that which is aware.

…..if there is no separation of self from self…. — ucarr

I wonder how that can even happen. By what mechanism can a singular identity become detached? If self separates from self, what then becomes of self-awareness?
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this inter-communitive relationship — ucarr

Thought and judgement, because they are related to each other….communicate? Why can’t they just be specific components integrated into a particular process? It’s like saying the water communicates with the soil in which the plant grows.

Anyway, it’s become too psychological for my interests, so, thanks for the alternative perspective.

When the self has a thought, the content of the thought gets conveyed to the self having the thought. — ucarr

Conveyed….from where?

Given that there is no such thing as an empty thought, it follows necessarily that when a self has a thought, it must be that the content does not get conveyed to the self, but arises from the self in conjunction with the thought the self has.

The assertion, then, reduces to either the conveyance, not of the content, but of the thought itself, to the self that has the thought, a contradiction, or, there is nothing whatsoever conveyed to the self regarding thought and its content, that doesn’t already reside therein, such that, ipso facto, thought is possible.

Not to say there isn’t something conveyed to the self, as something must be in order to justify his experience. It just isn’t thought or its content.

the conception is posterior to the intuitions which Kant confirms are active in each person. — Paine

Absolutely. All conceptions are posterior to intuition, in Kant.

Sort of taking half of Descartes' certainty at the expense of the other. — Paine

You mean, cogito at the expense of substance? If so, then yes, I’d agree with that.

He does say at the beginning that it is an empirical proposition, so yeah, I'm disagreeing with that — Janus

So does he. The empirical proposition is initially a derivative of Mendelssohn's materialism; the disagreement is the evolution of the “Refutation of Idealism” in A, to the “Solution of the Psychological Paralogism” in B.

In short, the “I”, previously taken as Descartes’ “thinking substance” and Mendelssohn's “simple being”, cannot exist as conditioned by modal categories, but can only be represented as a non-contradictory transcendental object.

While we all might be quite happy to be informed our respective “I”’s can’t be really real, we still might be a little reserved in our happiness from being informed it’s no more than an intellectual conception.

….where is the "immediate" object? — Pez

Immediate appearance is before the processing. Object here just indicates that which is processed, depending on which sense is affected. The object for the ear is sound, for the tongue, chemicals, etc. The intellectual system, metaphysically speaking, the brain physically speaking, determines how the object of sense, referred to as sensation, is to be known by that system.

I can take it only as subjective opinion…. — Pez

Was my “Dunno, but maybe….” your first clue? Is any opinion not subjective? Doesn’t “opinion” characterize the majority of postings in this kind of public media? So it is no big deal to take what anybody says, at least initially, as mere opinion.

Speaking of nonsense…..

the only fact, that I can be sure of is, that I exist. (…) reminiscence to Descarte's „cogito ergo sum“ — Pez

…..relevant insofar as, because there is an antecedent necessary condition supporting the fact you exist, which is fundamentally reminiscent of Descartes, it is nonsense to assert the fact that you exist is the only fact there is to be sure of.

But any knowledge in a strict sense about objects entirely out of our consciousness is impossible, especially regarding their behavior in the future. If this was the case, Hume's arguments are indeed irrefutable. — Pez

….. it is the case knowledge of objects out of our consciousness is impossible, which makes both their future behavior superfluous, and, the connection to Hume’s argument, irrelevant.

Categorical error: knowledge of objects impossible because they are not in consciousness, is very far from knowledge of objects impossible because they are not immediately perceived. Hume’s argument, re: that knowledge of unperceived objects is validated by “constant conjunction”, or, habitual cause/effect thinking, has nothing to do with the objects as the content of consciousness, and is entirely refuted by theories of empirical knowledge wherein the immediate appearance of objects to the senses is a fundamental prerequisite.

My opinions, of course. I can give the textual references for them, from Rene’s, Dave’s or Manny’s opinions, if you like.

Would You not say a dream is of Your own making? And as long as You dream is it absurd to say You live in that dream? — Pez

Yes to both. I cannot do science in a dream. While it could be said by dreaming I may represent myself as if I am doing science, in fact I’m not doing anything scientifically.
————

What do You mean by "really existent things"? — Pez

Ehhhh, that’s just me being…..me. Existing indicates that for which the negation is contradictory; really existing just indicates that for which the negation is stupid.

…..Transcendental Idealsms has nothing whatsoever to do with ordinary idealism or solipsism. — Pez

True enough, but it is a form of idealism nonetheless. Dunno, but maybe these days the term has been transitioned onto one of those newfangled language games, where idealism of old is now raw subjectivism, or some other such nonsense.

I’m a week late to the party, so the following is more or less rhetorical…..

Does this mean that transcendental idealism is in the end unavoidable and there is no realistic alternative to this world-view? — Pez

TI is not a world-view, although it may be said to contain the ground for the development of one. TI is a doctrine, supported by a speculative metaphysical theory concerning the human intellect in general, and as such, has no warrant beyond its own logic for actually being the case.

So saying, even if not a world-view per se, TI is certainly avoidable by not having any knowledge of it, and, there can be realistic alternatives to it by assuming a different set of initial conditions. Just as in any theory, TI is neither certifiably irrefutable nor unalterable.

On the other hand, TI is unavoidable iff the rational thinking subject….that to which the theory applies….subscribes to its rules. With respect to the thread title, one of the major rules is the source of the legitimacy for attributing to Nature, only that by which its observable relations are comprehensible, and its unobserved relations are nonetheless possibly comprehensible.

Only if comprehension is invariant, that is to say, subsumed under the principles of universality and necessity, and thereby under any legitimate condition, is the attribution to Nature a law. From which follows as a matter of experience alone, we do in fact influence the laws of Nature, insofar as we propose them, even if it is true we cannot influence Nature or the intrinsic relations observable in it.
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The spatiotemporal world we live in is, according to Kant, of our own making. It exists only in our ideas (Vorstellung) and gives us no clue to what these things might be „an sich“ or per se. — Pez

If it is the case the spatialtemporal world resides in our intelligence, insofar as “it is of our own making”, it’s absurd to then suppose we live in it.

If something is of our own making, how is it possible we don’t have a clue about what that something is? If it is something because of us it cannot be nothing to us.

Wouldn’t the fact we don’t have a clue about these things, immediately presuppose them? How is it possible to have or not have clues about things that aren’t there to have or not have clues about? And if things are presupposed, the notion of ideas alone as conditions for having no clue about the existence of things, is categorically false.

If that in which we live exists merely from our ideas of it, why do we have and employ apparatus for the receptivity of various modes of physically real affectations caused by really existent things?
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“….. In the transcendental æsthetic we proved that everything intuited in space and time, all objects of a possible experience, are nothing but phenomena, that is, mere representations; and that these, as presented to us—as extended bodies, or as series of changes—have no self-subsistent existence apart from human thought. This doctrine I call Transcendental Idealism….” (A491/B519, in Kemp Smith,1929)

It is, then, in Kant, representations are that which exists only in human thought, and subsequent peer review iterations have extended mere human thought to ideas. That in which we live, in which we exist as a particular kind of thing amongst all things in general, is necessarily presupposed as existing by its own accord, independent of human intelligence, in order for there to be spatialtemporal phenomena at all.

Yeah, ok. All my fault. Sorry.

Good luck.

Your misunderstanding seems to come from thinking judgements are concepts….. — Corvus

Good luck finding where I said judgement are concepts. If I didn’t say it, what possible ground could there be for you to claim a misunderstanding of mine related to it?

…..and judgements have no association with reasoning in the operation. — Corvus

What operation? For this operation it doesn’t, for that operation it does. I’m not going to guess which one you’re talking about.

Worshipping Kant and CPR as if he is some God, and CPR is the bible is not a good philosophy. — Corvus

While this is correct, do you see the fault in judgement in supposing it has been the case with respect to this conversation? And if there’s no evidence for the case other than mere observation of the disparity in our respective comments, and even if that assertion never was directed towards this conversation in the first place, what purpose is served by stating the obvious?

But never fear; it’s ok. It’s covered in the bible (of critical human thought):

(those finding themselves in a dialectic corner) “…must either have recourse to pitiful sophisms or confess their ignorance…”.

CPR is not a bible…. — Corvus

For a few hundred years, it is, for all intents and purposes, the bible for critical human thought.

It has to be interpreted and understood in making sense way for the present days. — Corvus

Why wouldn’t it? Knowledge has certainly evolved, but the human intellectual system, in whichever form that actually is…. by which knowledge evolves, has not changed one iota in these few hundred years. Or even if a couple iotas, still not enough to make a difference. Given current education and peer review, Kant would understand “qualia” just as well as anybody these days.

”To understand Kant is to transcend him." — Corvus

Nahhhh. To understand Kant is to think as if in his place and time. Work with what he worked with. You didn’t read in that link, where the author said pretty much the same thing? That people are apt to misunderstand him because they’re using asymmetrical conditions in attempting to arrive at congruent conclusions. Sadly, Kant must be wrong because he’s three hundred years old?

(Sigh)

If you already have the concepts of things, why do you need further judgements on them? — Corvus

Further? This implies concepts are judgements, when they are in fact only representations.

For why judgement is needed, when there are already conceptions, consult A67-76/B92-101.

make judgements with conception only….. — Corvus

All judgements having to do with things, are of conceptions only.

…..without any other mental faculties associated? — Corvus

I never said no other faculties were associated. In fact, other faculties must be, given the previous comments.

How can you judge if the apple taste good without having eaten it? Just by conception of apple, it is impossible to judge if the apple tastes good. — Corvus

All and each sensation, depending on its mode of intuition, is represented by its own conceptions. The compendium of those conceptions, synthesized in an aggregate series of relations to each other, gives the cognition of the thing as a whole. For those singular sensations, by themselves, not in conjunction with other modes of intuition, only judgements relative to that mode of intuition, that sensation, are possible.

Sufficient to explain why not all possible sensations are necessary to judge an object, and, that each sensation manifests in a possible judgement of its own, in accordance initially with its physiology, henceforth in accordance with the rules implicit in the faculty of understanding.

….judgement needs reason for its proper operation. — Corvus

Depends on what you think proper operation of judgement entails. Pretty sure I made clear, according to the original transcendental philosophy, it doesn’t need reason.

Judgement needs conceptions for its operation, proper or otherwise, such operation being the functional unity in understanding.

The association theory of mind for Hume and Kant is not that the different mental faculties are the same entities. It means they work together just like the car parts as you presented. But you seem to misunderstand the association theory of mind. — Corvus

What….so the associative theory of mind works like the relation of car parts, I understand the relation of car parts….obviously, since I presented it…..yet I don’t understand the associative theory of mind which is just like it?

Didn’t I mention that each member of a system works in conjunction with the others?

Judgement doesn’t conclude, it synthesizes.
— Mww
Why does it synthesise? What does synthesis do, if it doesn't offer conclusion? — Corvus

Crap, I spoke too fast. Imagination synthesizes; judgement merely represents the synthesis. My badly stated shortcut, sorry. Productive imagination synthesizes conceptions, that is, relates the conception in the subject of a possible cognition, to the conception in the predicate, the unity of that relation is then called judgement.

Reason certifies the relation as logical iff it accords with the corresponding principles, by which we consider ourselves positively certain, re: knowledge, and illogical otherwise, by which we find ourselves negatively certain, re: confused.
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But it doesn't mean that reason has nothing to do with the other mental faculties. — Corvus

That each member of a system operates in conjunction with the others, does not make explicit any have to do with the other. Pretty simple, really: the engine in a car has nothing to do with the rear axle, each being specific in itself for purpose and function, but without both, the car goes nowhere.

How can judgement function for rational conclusions — Corvus

Judgement doesn’t conclude, it synthesizes.

“…. Conceptions, then, are based on the spontaneity of thought, as sensuous intuitions are on the receptivity of impressions. Now, the understanding cannot make any other use of these conceptions than to judge by means of them. (…) All the functions of the understanding therefore can be discovered, when we can completely exhibit the functions of unity in judgements.…”
(A68/B93)

“…. General logic is constructed upon a plan which coincides exactly with the division of the higher faculties of cognition. These are, understanding, judgement, and reason. This science, accordingly, treats in its analytic of conceptions, judgements, and conclusions in exact correspondence with the functions and order of those mental powers which we include generally under the generic denomination of understanding.…” (A131/B170)

So it is, in merely representing the higher powers of the overall human intellectual program, re: as a means to expose and enable discussions of it, a speculative tripartite logical system in the form of a syllogism, the order or sequential procedure of which understanding is the major, judgement is the minor or assemblage of minors, and reason is the conclusion.
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Reason can serve nothing useful or rational if it stood itself in the mind with no connections to the experience, appearance, intuitions and judgement. — Corvus

Just ask yourself….what did Hume say reason couldn’t do? And if the major raison d’etre of CPR was to expose what reason can do, such that Hume’s philosophy was proved incomplete, then it is the case reason has nothing to do with experience, appearance, intuitions and judgement, which Hume’s empirical philosophy covered well enough on its own. It has to do with, not all those, but how the use of those in non-empirical conditions is not only possible but necessary, and they are so only iff it is the case synthetic, and altogether pure a priori cognitions are themselves possible.

THAT….is what reason does, and we call them…..waaiiiitttt for itttttt…..principles!!!!!

I am not sure if reason has no warrant or entitlement to do in the pursuit of empirical knowledge…. — Corvus

Given that empirical knowledge just is experience**….
(“… to convert the raw material of our sensuous impressions into a knowledge of objects, which is called experience…”)
**translator-dependent, as we are all so familiar.

“…. Reason never has an immediate relation to an object; it relates immediately to the understanding alone. It is only through the understanding that it can be employed in the field of experience. It does not form conceptions of objects, it merely arranges them and gives to them that unity which they are capable of possessing when the sphere of their application has been extended as widely as possible. Reason avails itself of the conception of the understanding for the sole purpose of producing totality in the different series. This totality the understanding does not concern itself with; its only occupation is the connection of experiences, by which series of conditions in accordance with conceptions are established. The object of reason is, therefore, the understanding and its proper destination. As the latter brings unity into the diversity of objects by means of its conceptions, so the former brings unity into the diversity of conceptions by means of ideas; as it sets the final aim of a collective unity to the operations of the understanding….”
(A643/B671)

But reason when applied to the appearance…. — Corvus

Reason has nothing to do with appearances as such, as shown above, inasmuch as immediate relation to an object IS its appearance to sensibility alone.

Illusory or outright mistaken understandings relative to real things, is a function of judgement, not reason.

That reason has for its object understanding, and understanding has for its object experience, it does not follow that reason has to do with experience or empirical knowledge itself.

…..proper account….. — Corvus

Because the point was…..

“….we do not have to conceive of the ‘something’ that underlies appearances as a material object. It might as well be considered as something that is immaterial and can only be thought….”

….and because to conceive is a logical function of understanding, it follows that the something that underlies appearances, if considered as merely something immaterial and can only be thought, whatever that conception might be, cannot be phenomenon. And if not phenomenon, it is impossible for that conceived something to be an experience or a possible experience, which means there will be no empirical knowledge of it.

“….. For, otherwise, we should require to affirm the existence of an appearance, without something that appears, which is absurd….”
(Bxxvii)

My opinion on that account: the use of transcendental conceptions of reason, re: that which underlies appearances as immaterial or simply conceived as something, is what the critique was all about, that is, an exposition on what not to do. Or, technically, what reason has no warrant or entitlement to do, in the pursuit of empirical knowledge, which is all that appearances concern.

What is your own point? — Corvus

Didn’t have one; just curious.

The following is the point I used to agree with, and still do. — Corvus

That’s fine, provided proper account is taken for it.

….various commentaries….. — Corvus

Did you read the “Multi-Layered Conception….” paper linked on the previous page?

Few, if any, other things pique my interest as much as meaningful human thought, belief, and/or experience. — creativesoul

Same here.

I do believe all experience shares a core set of common denominators. — creativesoul

As they must, I should think.

Generally, all meaningful human experience consists in very large part of correlations being drawn between different things by the individual at that time. — creativesoul

I rather think experience consists in very large part of entirely of correlations…..
—————

I still maintain that at conception there is no meaningful human experience. — creativesoul

I agree. But your use of “in utero” implies a very different notion of “conception” than I would ever use, relative to experience. You’re indicating conditions relative to a general biological development, I’m indicating conditions relative to a specific constituent in a systemic methodology, in which such biological development is necessarily presupposed.

I think it undeniable that correlations are drawn in utero. — creativesoul

Perhaps, but what kind of correlations? And if the kind that have only to do with, not even fundamental survival but solely with continuous successful biological development, does it matter how they are made?
—————

I've found that the subject/object dichotomy is incapable of properly accounting for all meaningful human experience. — creativesoul

Incapable of properly accounting, agreed, meaning the subject/object dichotomy makes no sense as an operational predicate of the human cognitive system itself. In other words, the proper accounting for all meaningful human experiences, is the acquisition of them. The problem is, that system can never be examined or discussed by an intelligence in possession of it, without that very dichotomy, invented by that same intelligence in order to examine and talk about it.
—————

I am convinced that biological structures are key. — creativesoul

Agreed, but even if they are there is as yet not enough knowledge for how they are.

We may agree on a bunch of stuff, but I think I’m satisfied with logical explanations regarding human thought/belief and experience, whereas you’re….not so much?

All that, plus, I’d submit, that people in general are more conscious of their respective worldviews than they are of the metaphysics from which they are given.

Cart before the horse, if there ever was such a thing.

HA!!! Yeah, sorry, bud. Just calls ‘em as I sees ‘em, donchaknow.

I thought your Main Man was Chomsky anyway, so gimme credit for not throwing him under the transcendental bus, maybe?

We can, in a roundabout, absential way, observe these (“unconscious”) processes. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Yes, but such are the exceptions to the rule, rather then a metaphysical, albeit speculative, establishment of it.
———-

…I don't actually think the whole modern focus on "beginning at the beginning" is actually helpful…. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Not helpful….in what context? I guess it depends on where “beginning” actually is, relative to whatever follows.

….“unconscious" processes, a concept unavailable to Kant? — Count Timothy von Icarus

“….a blind but indispensable function of the soul, without which we should have no cognition whatever, but of the working of which we are seldom even conscious….”

“….For they pass, unconsciously, from the world of sense to the insecure ground of pure transcendental conception….”

“….whether they be conscious or unconscious, be it of the manifold in intuition, sensuous or non-sensuous, or of several conceptions, is an act of the understanding….”

He had a conception of the “unconscious”, and for “unconscious processes” nothing could be said anyway, so….
—————

Might it be valid to say that what is often labeled in Kant as "a priori" might be better described using modern concepts of "unconscious" processes — Count Timothy von Icarus

Even if it is valid to say, it remains whether the newly described terms are as sufficient in their support of the theory in which they originated, as the terms described under the original conditions are necessary for it. Modern conceptions grounding modern descriptions of formerly defined terms tend to refute, or at least obfuscate, the original theories. Might be called “re-structuring” though, in order to assuage conscience, which is tacit acknowledgement the original should have just been left alone. (yeah, I’m talkin’ to YOU, Arthur!!!).

So, sure, to describe Kantian terms in modern understandings is just to have a newer theory. People been doing that since forever, right?

Not at all. — Manuel

Cool.

And I am refusing to read Hegel. — Manuel

Way cool. I did “Science of Logic”, but my persuasions had already been set.

It depends on how you think about the systems of other figures…… — Manuel

Do you think his predecessors constructed systems as complete as the three Citique’s entail?

an emphasis on the shift in perspective, more so that a entirely new mode of investigation. — Manuel

If no one had ever thought to consider the problem as he describes, wouldn’t an investigation into it be a new mode of investigation?

“….It is extremely advantageous to be able to bring a number of investigations under the formula of a single problem. For in this manner, we not only facilitate our own labour, inasmuch as we define it clearly to ourselves, but also render it more easy for others to decide whether we have done justice to our undertaking. The proper problem of pure reason, then, is contained in the question: “How are synthetical judgements à priori possible?” That metaphysical science has hitherto remained in so vacillating a state of uncertainty and contradiction, is only to be attributed to the fact that this great problem, and perhaps even the difference between analytical and synthetical judgements, did not sooner suggest itself to philosophers. Upon the solution of this problem, or upon sufficient proof of the impossibility of synthetical knowledge à priori, depends the existence or downfall of the science of metaphysics.…”

I agree there was a shift in perspectives, in an effort to connect the empirical with the rational rather than keep them separate, but it would have been impossible to connect them into a useful system without a new mode of investigation.

Kant is a metaphysician without knowing it…. — LFranc

Good to know. Thanks.

That’s the rub, innit? How would we as humans comprehend any intelligence, other than the one by which humans comprehend anything? Which is why it cannot be said noumena are impossible, insofar as some intellect other than ours might actually use them. How could we possibly be justified in saying there is no such thing? But at the same time, how could we say there is, if we could never comprehend an intelligence that fails to meet the functional criteria of our own?

Correct. But Kant relegates noumena to the human faculty of understanding alone, and for that reason they are necessarily unattainable goals of science. For an intelligence other than discursive, or for which sensible intuition conditioned by space and time is not necessary, it cannot be known as impossible that noumena function in such system.

Fundamental understandings are just what is taken for granted….. — Janus

I’d go as far as to say, beyond merely taken for granted, fundamental understandings are not even within Everydayman’s conscious considerations; that is to say, he hasn’t slowed himself down enough to figure out that he has them, and to know what they are.

And while it may be true you make that case for yourself alone, given that all humans are intellectually and morally equipped in exactly the same manner, it follows any other of congruent rationality may come to the same conclusion. I mean…look….you convinced me, so…that ya go.

its likely we are speaking the same metaphysical language here — AmadeusD

Yeah, but you know…..even though we share a language, it remains we may hold with different systems into which that common language fits. For me, “perception” is this and only does that, for you “perception” may be something quite different. So it is with CPR: it is a system, thought out and written as complete in itself. Whether it is right or not is irrelevant, it only matters that it is complete, and…..well, you know….logically comprehensible.

I really, really like this formulation…. — AmadeusD

And it answers how the thread title is backwards: the real transition loss, is from world to mind. Even science grants that, in the exchange of energy forms always and necesarily involves loss of data or information or whatever you want to call it. It follows that anything given to the mind, meaning anything exchanging domain from the external as one energy form, to the internal in a very different energy form, something will be lost in the transition.

The secondary mark of truth is that for which the negation is also true. As such, it is true there is no possible loss of data or information or whatever you want to call it, from mind to world, re: the thread title, insofar as the mind creates or generates or composes of its own accord all the data with which it is concerned, it follows that a loss created from itself, is impossible.

Long story short….loss in transition from mind to world? There isn’t any. Or maybe better yet, it makes no sense to say there is such a thing.
————

Much appreciated — AmadeusD

Thanks, but, I gotta say…whatever you got from me I got from CPR, which reduces to, insofar as there’s no measurable qualifier to support I’m that much smarter than you, you could have got it from CPR on your own. Might just be a matter of time spent on study. Personal attachment of value. Relative significance. Dunno.

the reality that surrounds us, is the subject matter of metaphysics — Rob J Kennedy

Is it? What then, of the natural sciences?

The subject matter of metaphysics, is the methodology by which the natural sciences regarding the reality surrounding us, is comprehensible.
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….best description of Metaphysics…. — Rob J Kennedy

“…. this kind of a priori knowledge must unquestionably be looked upon as given; in other words, metaphysics must be considered as really existing, if not as a science, nevertheless as a natural disposition of the human mind. For human reason, without any instigations imputable to the mere vanity of great knowledge, unceasingly progresses, urged on by its own feeling of need, towards such questions as cannot be answered by any empirical application of reason, or principles derived therefrom; and so there has ever really existed in every man some system of metaphysics. It will always exist, so soon as reason awakes to the exercise of its power of speculation. And now the question arises: “How is metaphysics, as a natural disposition, possible?” In other words, how, from the nature of universal human reason, do those questions arise which pure reason proposes to itself, and which it is impelled by its own feeling of need to answer as well as it can?

But as in all the attempts hitherto made to answer the questions which reason is prompted by its very nature to propose to itself, for example, whether the world had a beginning, or has existed from eternity, it has always met with unavoidable contradictions, we must not rest satisfied with the mere natural disposition of the mind to metaphysics, that is, with the existence of the faculty of pure reason, whence, indeed, some sort of metaphysical system always arises; but it must be possible to arrive at certainty in regard to the question whether we know or do not know the things of which metaphysics treats. We must be able to arrive at a decision on the subjects of its questions, or on the ability or inability of reason to form any judgement respecting them; and therefore either to extend with confidence the bounds of our pure reason, or to set strictly defined and safe limits to its action…..”

I would need to ask though, is that enough for you to say we 'see' those objects? — AmadeusD

I prefer to say my sensory devices are affected by them. Any object is an effect on each sensory device according to that device’s physiology, and from which a corresponding sensation ensues in each, which just is to perceive.

….perception is what is done with the sensory information to create the experience…. — AmadeusD

Cognition is what is done with sensory information. Experience is cognition by conjoined perceptions. Each in its place, doing only its job, as a system should.

Where is the mechanism by which we 'directly' access these objects? — AmadeusD

Wasn’t that the whole point of my intervention here? We don’t directly access anything; we have the capacities and abilities by which things are given access to us.

And now the really cool part: do you see how the thread title is backwards?

Relax. All is not lost.

Might it help to examine whether the other senses meet the same criteria you’ve assigned to vision?

I mean…jeeeezzz, ain’t it nonsense to suppose actual basketballs impress the eyes? Imagine how much that would HURT!!! Nevertheless, on the other hand, it is actually quite necessary that actual oysters (technically, some thing conceived of, named by, and eventually experienced as, “oyster”) impress the tongue. How in the HELL would you even call that slimey mess an “oyster”….or whatever you did end up calling it…. if it never hit the sensory device which allows that kind of determination? Does one ever call it an “oyster” because it sounds like Ravel’s “Bolero”?
(Sigh)

Perception does not occur in the mind; it occurs in the senses. Why the fork else would there even BE senses? What is done with what the senses inform you of, is in the mind.
(Crap-on-a-cracker, I hate that word. There is no mind; there is only reason. Or something. Whatever it is that humans have. What kinda fool denies whatever it is that humans have, huh??? Except rabid physicalists, but they don’t count. Sorta like analytic philosophers. You know….forest-trees/map-territory paradigmatic deniers)
(Double sigh)
————-

Stove’s Gem? Ehhhh…don’t worry ‘bout that Happy Horse-hockey. Guy just wondered how stupid things could get, and to give an example of it, he did something stupid. Wanna defeat Stove’s Gem? Just don’t do what he did, which 99%…..ok, fine: 80%…..of otherwise intelligent humans never did do in the first place. DUH!!!!)
(Double-double sigh)
———-

Now that we got the attaboys out of the way, time for the awww-crap’s.

It make no sense to infer the existence of real, external objects, as the sole criterion of their reality. Kinda silly to trip over the dog, but only credit the dog’s existence to the inference there was something there to trip over. Which would you have done first? If you tripped over the dog it means you didn’t know it was there, so why bother inferring it’s existence from the floor onto which you’ve quite unceremoniously planted your face? Nahhh…the damn dog was already there, which makes explicit you didn’t need any inference at all for it.

And if that don’t blow your dress up, think of it this way: inference is a logical maneuver, and there is no logic whatsoever in perception. Aristotle said so, as did his somewhat chronologically removed protege. I believe him, or, them, and so should you. Trust me; I wouldn’t steer you wrong, Honest.

Anyway…just sayin’. Even if you don’t believe a word of it, wasn’t it more fun to read that what’s passed as philosophical discourse here recently?

Ehhh…he’s around; he’ll get to this when he’s ready.