Thanks for the excellent and learned reply.
I like this:

As to the education of the philosopher - escape from the cave means to free oneself from all puppet-masters, all makers of images, be they poets, sophists, politicians, theologians, and even philosophers. — Fooloso4

It is how or where we can learn to do this effectively combined with lightness in the serious.
TPF is the best formal/informal venue or avenue I've found.
But my attention is veering towards literature. It's good when there's a combination :sparkle:
Later... :flower:

It has happened many times over the years, both on the old PF and on TPF. It normally doesn't happen without a lot of discussion first, as Hanover has described. But occasionally it does.

I know that this discussion was prompted by the recent banning of Olivier5. In that case I didn't take it to the rest of the staff for discussion. The refusal of moderation, the attitude it was received with, and his suggestion that he be banned for all he cared, are what led directly to the ban. Refusal of moderation has been a reason for such bannings before, e.g., The Great Whatever, who was a high-quality poster who refused to make a small change to his spelling habits. — Jamal

Thanks for that. I appreciate your honesty. It is as I thought.
It is not so much any original 'crime' in the thread but how the immediate, heated responses were dealt with. Without any space or time given, any consideration as to underlying reasons or circumstances, any thought other than he broke the moderation rule.

Good to know that it wasn't the result of the entire team's judgement so it wasn't their egos involved:

There was no benefit here afaict, rather the mere assuagement of the moderators' egos. — hypericin

Such a pity that there seems to be no way to resolve this.

Edit:

I know that this discussion was prompted by the recent banning of Olivier5 — Jamal

@Jamal thanks, I've edited the OP to clarify this for new readers.

But Olivier5 had thousands of posts, and more importantly, real relationships, mayhap even friendships. It seems cruel to sever those over this incident, which had multiple sides to it. — hypericin

Yes. And not only that.
@Olivier5's contribution and integrity can be had by searching his name under any discussion.
An example where he not only learned but supported the thread leader @Fooloso4 against @Apollodorus

112 results in the Euthyphro thread alone.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/search?Search=Olivier5&disc=RXV0aHlwaHJv

Though, possibly, too complex for the intellectually or metaphysically challenged to grasp.
— Apollodorus

You are confused and challenged because you are not looking at the right place. You are looking at the tools (concepts) used by Plato, not at what he says with these tools. You are staying at level of words, at the surface therefore.

When the wise points at the stars, you dissect his finger. — Olivier5

In this discussion, exchanges became increasingly unpleasant. To say the least.
I note on p4 of the search my departure and the reasons. The trolling so clear and yet not banned.

I did not get a chance to read the posts that were deleted, but it is certain that they were not substantive or on topic. As you said, it was a moderator who thought they should be deleted.
Unfortunately, you have become a target too
— Fooloso4

Apparently they have no problem with overdrawn personal feuds.
— Olivier5

Unfortunately, the misrepresentations and lies continue. Such blatant dishonesty:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/555262

I will leave it stand. As an example.

My concern is that it will not stop - not particularly from the point of view of being a 'target' - but that any further threads concerning Plato's Dialogues will suffer the same fate.
— Amity

Fine.

How about losing the ability to create threads as phase one. Then limiting number of daily posts to 1 as phase two. Lots of simple but fun ways that could be done. — Pantagruel

I thought I was done here but...cut-off point will be in 30 mins - 19.30hrs my time.

I am sure that Admin/mods are listening carefully and then will do exactly as they please :wink:

What intrigued me about the last banning was the way it was explained but yet left a lot of questions unanswered. I still don't know what happened because, of course, posts are deleted.
This is frustrating. It is open, then, to speculation.

My thoughts were that it was a relatively sudden ban with no time given for tempers to cool.

Also, it might have been the outcome of an extended personal escalation between 2 members.

Perhaps, the trolling complained of was a case of continual subtle trolling as described in your excellent thread:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13901/respectful-dialog

A reply from @Bylaw re your:

I'd question your use of 'subtle trolling' as I think the definitive characteristic of trolling is that it is intentional and premeditated.
— Pantagruel
I think subtle trolling can be premeditated, especially in heavily moderated forums. But I've noticed the seemingly oxymoronic phrase is now fairly commonplace out there. That said, I mean it as a challenging idea. And why should someone oblivious or sneaky, who can end up torturing someone for pages, be considered less a troll?

And:

It's a bit like the topic of trolling [...] the bluntly and openly rude troll is fairly easy to deal with. It's all right there on the table. You know what is happening. — Bylaw

Also from @Christoffer:

So yeah, obligation to treat others with respect is a fundamental part of philosophical discussion, otherwise the topic being discussed will never transform into new knowledge, it will just be a debate with fists that only solidifies the different opinions further into deep cognitive bias. — Christoffer

A real pity when this happens and not picked up on.
It's happened before and it will happen again.
Some expert, clever trollers are never banned...

Yet a more flexible approach concerning the banning policy might still be more beneficial than a rigid one to this forum. — neomac

I agree. It would seem to be a fairer approach.
However, it was suggested earlier that 'temporary bans' or a suspension might be troublesome.
Sometimes it's easier to apply rigid rules, I guess :chin:
The mods do the best they can on a voluntary basis.
Not everyone has the time or inclination to be flexible. Indeed, they might then stand accused of personal bias...

Enough. This time I'm out :sparkle:

In any case, even if rules is rules, sanctions for transgression are discretionary. So admins can still reason on case by case basis, and proportion sanctions to the severity of the transgression, without denying a second chance for positive long-term contributors. — neomac

You would think so.
To answer my previous question:

I'm not sure if the Banning procedure is stickied anywhere.
All the better for the sake of transparency and then there would be no need for a thread like this one. — Amity

Here's what is written in TPF Guidelines:

Bans:

Admins have the right to ban members. We don't do that lightly, and you will probably be warned about your behaviour if you are under consideration for a ban. However, if you are a spammer, troll, racist or in some other way obviously unsuited to the forum, a summary ban will be applied. Bans are permanent and non-negotiable. Returning banned members will be rebanned.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/480/site-guidelines/p1

Jesus Christ, it really not that complicated. — DingoJones

Not for the simple-minded, for sure.

Very well said :clap: :up:

Thanks for outlining what you meant by 'progressive banning'.
That makes sense. And wouldn't need to be spelled out each time, if part of a stickied procedure.

Olivier5 wasn't like Bartricks at all. — neomac

Agreed. But that doesn't seem to matter. Rules is rules.

As you might imagine, defiance is the worst response, not because it might be insulting, but because it's a refusal to play by the rules. — Hanover

I see no reason why it would be different for the recently banned individual. — Philosophim

Thank you.

While you see that they were suddenly banned one day, what you didn't see was likely the weeks and/or months of repeated warnings, requests, and second, third, etc. chances that were repeatedly ignored by the poster. — Philosophim

Is that what happened in e.g. the last banning?

To better understand the system, what happens, particularly so with long time posters, is that a complaint is made, or a mod notices a problem, and we then read through the poster's comments and try to contextualize it. — Hanover

One last thing.
If there are specific steps in the 'Banning' procedure, is this made clear to the member concerned?

The person's response matters. We're not looking for groveling or even an apology, but really just an assurance the problem is taken care of. — Hanover

Is there a set period of time between the steps?
If not already in place, I think a slow progression might be what is required.

I'm not sure if the Banning procedure is stickied anywhere.
All the better for the sake of transparency and then there would be no need for a thread like this one.

Thank you, Hanover, for taking the time to clarify the process.

So, the best we can do is to be fair when modding, listening to the other mods, and being as transparent as we can, which is what hopefully threads like this do. — Hanover

Indeed. That's all anyone can do. Their best :100:

There's one exception I would probably be vocal in advocating for...

Heat of battle passion, when there is an active and ongoing global military conflict and the person is a relevant stakeholder in one or more sides and is thus no longer operating (arguing) from a reasonable and logical mindset as is intended for this forum, but is instead operating from fight or flight adrenaline and emotion as their life and everything and everyone in it could be severely impacted or killed as a result of said conflict being discussed.

That's what this last one was about, wasn't it? — Outlander

No. The last banning concerned another thread.

However, I believe the 'Ukraine Crisis' discussion was the start of the personal escalation between members who invested a lot of their time and energy there. I'll say no more on the subject.

Not sure what a 'progressive banning' would look like :chin:

Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts.
I think the label 'Banned' has negative connotations and effects.

...it is healthy for the forum to not treat with privilige "long-term users" because that would be unfair. — javi2541997

It is not about giving privilege to long-term members but weighing up years of steady commitment against a particular episode of escalation that might have been handled better on both sides.
After a period of calm reflection in 'suspension'.

But I've said enough already.
Time up :sparkle:

Thanks to you and others for your considered thoughts and responses.
Later... :flower:

Edit:

It would be better to find a neutral term - "account closed" — unenlightened

Yes. But I think that could also apply to those accounts closed voluntarily by members.
I think that term much better than e.g. 'deletedmemberbcc'. Apparently @busycuttingcrap's decision to cut his time short as member/moderator?
'Deletedmember' - sounds painful :scream:

And there are other forums to go to. — Bylaw

Yes there are. But long-term posters have built up a body of discussions/comments and have been part of a community. TPF is the best of the bunch in my opinion.

It would be the staining of the character of a made up name that a person has on a philosophy forum whose members can be from anywhere in the world. I don't think this is a real concern. — Bylaw

It is only a concern when it is related to the 'status' of a forum member.
If you see the label 'Banned' on someone's profile, what is your first impression?
Unworthy of being read or thoughts considered?

A NUMBER of banned members come back with a different identity (all they need is a different email address) and then later they get banned again for the SAME MISDEMEANORS as before. — god must be atheist

Yes. Some do that. Others who are not of that ilk do not.

However, I think it is quite unjust to permanently ban a long-term poster who has contributed well and evenly for most of their TPF travels.
— Amity

These members don't get banned. — god must be atheist

Yes they do.

This is the reason I think it's futile to bring back banned members. — god must be atheist

It's not about bringing back banned members but re-imagining a better justice system.
Perhaps that's too difficult...

This is me last life mateys! — Agent Smith

Hopefully not. Take care :pray:

In TPF, is banning always permanent?! — neomac

There have been a few exceptions in the past. But mostly yes.

You make good points.
As I've said before, out of 3 philo forums I've frequented, TPF is the best.
There is always room for change and improvement.
Admin and team do an exceptional job. Listening and responding with care to any feedback/suggestions.
:clap: :sparkle:

Time out for a re-think and for calm to prevail.
— Amity

Sounds more suitable for kindergarten than a grown up discussion. — unenlightened

It would seem like it. But is it ageism to think that way?
You don't think adults need time out from an escalation of conflict?
It's about prevention of a downward spiral in relationships where arguing is destructive.
You would think that would be possible or even desirable in a philosophy forum.
To reflect and be more constructive.

If you are thinking about justice, I would suggest you are misconstruing the situation. — unenlightened

No, I am not.

It's not much fun moderating, and bans are no fun at all. Mods agonise over decent posters gone rogue, and even listen to criticism in threads like this. — unenlightened

Yes. Nobody is saying otherwise. However, I think that some judgements are questionable due to some bias creeping in. Even mods can have rogue moments in the heat of a to and fro.

Temporary bans have been tried, and found to be troublesome, possibly because they foster the idea that bans are a punishment that might be just or more likely unjust, rather than the site protecting its reputation and integrity. — unenlightened

When were they tried? What consituted 'temporary'?
Bans are indeed a punishment with varying degrees of 'crime' and individual levels of commitment and participation. One label to fit all. Unfair. In my opinion.
Why would this make temporary bans or a suspension 'troublesome'?

I appreciate the opportunity to talk things through.
However, I am under no illusion that it will make one iota of difference.
Will limit my replies accordingly.

Did Plato glorify the historical Socrates or himself?

I wondered about the difference between them, and found this:
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Socrates/Socrates-versus-Plato

I haven't seen any other philosopher apart from Plato that utilizes any narrator or narration in their works. — Shawn

Well, I might be wrong about my previous comment with regard to continental's like Sarte or Camus. — Shawn

I don't know enough about other philosophers' use of narrators or how they promote their philosophy.
Interesting to consider though :up:

Yes. Plato keeps himself well out of the philosophical play. Nevertheless, he is most certainly there.
The invisible man pulling the strings...

I think you are right. Even if it doesn't come up as 'status' in the profile.
Used for less serious 'crimes' or wrong behaviour.

I agree with (platonist) Iris Murdoch's differentiation of philosophical texts and literary text, and the different implications for reading them (pardon if you're familiar with this video, I've posted it recently elsewhere)[...]
What do you think? — 180 Proof

Thanks, I missed that. I'll take time later to view and consider :up:

Maybe philosophy is a different kind of fiction. — Shawn

Maybe...part of our story-telling... :chin:

Thank you.
Extraordinary. An electrifying, unique interpretation by this 'guitarist's guitarist'.
He will be missed by many.

:hearts: :sparkle:

Reading the Dialogues as Fiction. Way to go, Plato :sparkle: — Amity

So, perhaps in that sense 'Socrates' was a martyr to Plato's cause.
— Amity
Yes, so says – dramatizes – Plato. Myth-making PR. :up: — 180 Proof

You once asked in the feedback of your Short Story 'Felice' why or how readers 'pegged you for the scribbler - style, plot, character, (peculiar) word choices, themes'.

The question stayed in my mind because I didn't really know how to answer it.
I think @Jamal mentioned your use of striking similes and metaphors.

I'm about to start a short course: 'How to Read a Novel'.
The study includes 4 books, each to be analysed for a certain aspect: Plot, Setting, Characterisation, and Dialogue. Possibly also specific literary techniques/tools...

I've been wondering how you and others read or would re-read any of Plato's Dialogues as literature.
For example: How to Read 'The Symposium'.

Are certain dialogues easier or more entertaining/educational than others?
For a beginner...perhaps the earlier?
What are the more challenging or 'deep'? Rewarding as both literature and philosophy.
How are the readers mystified by creative ambiguity? Other techniques to dramatise philosophy.

@Shawn - apologies for going off-topic. However, I think this might interest you too?

:up:

The Greek term is transliterated "poetry". The root of the word poiesis means to make. Here it is the making of images in words. It connotes both the image of the philosopher Socrates and the philosopher as an image maker. [...] — Fooloso4

Thanks for this.
As usual, your thoughts and quotes spark even more questions and ideas.
I'm taking time out now for 4 weeks. Glad to see you picking up your pen, again :sparkle:
Almost a Pavlovian response to Plato?!

I find Depeche Mode to be a wonderful band. The whole era of electric eighties, including some of the darker stuff is loved by many. — Jack Cummins

Good to know. I never really listened to this or them before.
I just wanted a song that screamed out ''Wrong!''
I guess it comes from a place of anger...rather than sweetness and light :wink:

Depeche Mode - Wrong (Official Video)

For @Olivier5
Missing you :broken:
Enjoy the freedom to be who and where you are :sparkle:

Nina Simone - Feeling good

This is somewhat unsettling; but, definitionally Socrates was a martyr. He died for corrupting the youth in Athens, Greece, according to the charges that were leveled upon him.

Would you label Socrates as a martyr, and is that label deserved? — Shawn

You raise interesting questions about how we think of Socrates.
What we know of him comes mainly via Plato.
From what I remember, I think his earlier Dialogues are stories of the historical figure Socrates, then it seems he used him in a more fictional way.

Socrates constantly questioned the societal and political values; he was seen as a threat to the status quo. So much so that he was eventually put on trial for corrupting the youth and for impiety i.e. not worshipping the correct Gods.

As can be seen, there are umpteen variations on a theme. Different interpretations of the dialogues.
So, perhaps in that sense 'Socrates' was a martyr to Plato's cause. Which was what?

To firmly establish and maintain the importance of philosophy?
What kind of philosophy?

The kind that questions our beliefs, assumptions and considers different ways of thinking.
How was this shown to us?
From Plato, we read of Socrates and his debates with other characters...introducing 'Dangerous Ideas'.

How do we know if what we read is true?

The Socratic Dialogues are stories. Fiction. What do we take as 'truth'?
Is it true that:

Cicero said:

Socrates was the first to call philosophy down from the heavens and to place it in cities, and even to introduce it into homes and compel it to inquire about life and standards and goods and evils.
(Tusculan Disputations V 10–11)

Socrates was the first political philosopher. His concern was how we ought to live. And this includes how we ought to die. His was not the death of a martyr but the death of a philosopher.

It was left to the youth he "corrupted" to figure out how to bring into harmony the tension between philosophy and the city. As Nietzsche says:

THE REAL PHILOSOPHERS, HOWEVER, ARE COMMANDERS AND LAW-GIVERS; they say: "Thus SHALL it be!
(BGE,211) — Fooloso4

As such, it doesn't matter what label we attach to Socrates.
What matters is the effect of the stories on how we live; what we love and why we think the way we do.
It's about coming to know ourselves; learning how to do that...perhaps to find some kind of harmony between our passions and reason. Or to disturb the peace of our self-satisfied slumbers.

Reading the Dialogues as Fiction. Way to go, Plato :sparkle:

Had forgotten that exchange! — Wayfarer

Well, you're forgiven, just :wink:
It was 2 years ago...