'The Sound of Silence' - Simon & Garfunkel (from The Concert in Central Park)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEppFUWLfc

Whose commentary is this? — T Clark

ThusSpakeSagaxa. But she likes 'Saige' better. I call her Saggy1.

What are your thoughts about it? — T Clark

Whatever the name, she is Heaven Scent and the message good :halo:

It just struck me we haven't talked about heaven and earth yet. I went back and checked. Maybe I'll do a post just on that. It's an important idea that I haven't got a good feel for. — T Clark

Saggy1 sends you best wishes and this Old Celtic Blessing:

'May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face,
the rains fall soft upon your fields
and until we meet again,
may God hold you in the palm of His hand.'

She adds:
May the knife you wield be a sharp one *
May it shine upon you
And not get blunt.

Amen :pray:

* Handle With Care

I prayed to God for a solution to the confusion. He sent me a sage in shining armour who spake thus:

Regarding the difference between the 10,000 things and the Tao:

In line with chapter 1:

The 10,000 things (being) can be named. The Tao that can be named is what gives rise to them. They are manifest in desire, that is, what we want, what we depend on.

The nameless Tao is the beginning of Heaven and earth. I think Heaven and earth are the names given to the wu in which beings are manifest, where they dwell. Perhaps desire must be eliminated because desire transforms them into what they are for us, makes the mystery into something that we can comprehend, thereby distorting it.

There are mysteries and manifestations - what cannot be named and what can be named - wu and beings - the nameless Tao and the named Tao

What sayest thou...anybody... ?
Note well: even the sage isn't sure... :smile:

She sends this reassurance:
If you are not getting yourself tied in knots you are missing something. It is after all, an enigma within a deeper enigma (chapter 1) :nerd:

Language Games: Philosophers Play Pictionary

https://existentialcomics.com/comic/26

From my understanding the Tao is the way or course or path of all things.
For this to be effective, or of benefit, we need to see the usefulness of wu, the empty aspect, as well as the yu, the substance. — Amity

I look back and see the many definitions:

To get started - the Tao. Here are some definitions and quotations about the Tao from various sources, including me:

[1] The ground of being
[2] The Tao that cannot be spoken
[3] Oneness is the Tao which is invisible and formless.
[4] Nature is Tao. Tao is everlasting.
[5] The absolute principle underlying the universe
[6] That in virtue of which all things happen or exist
[7] The intuitive knowing of life that cannot be grasped full-heartedly as just a concept — T Clark

Within the Tao - the Way, there can be a particular tao or way of looking at or doing things.
As individuals, we might be on the same general path but we differ in what we see along it.
All perspectives count...for their potential value...
Does that sound about right ?

:up: I am likewise helped.

Most of the discussions I have had along these lines in meat space have been conditioned by impatience of one kind or another. — Valentinus

Well, that happens here too, and worse.
I have learned not to fire off a response when tired and meet with some kind of difficulty.
It's good to take time out to breathe, back away and balance before replying.

Then again, I enjoy the spontaneity when in agreement with something that makes me smile.
When there is an easy flow...you know.

Both work well here :smile:

The meanings do seem to change in different verses. Maybe it has to do with us having to pursue different paths to approach what is the same. — Valentinus

I don't see it as a problem that meanings or use of a word changes in different verses depending on what subject is being addressed. Being and Non-Being can describe different states of affairs.

Potential meanings:

Being (yu) : having, existing, substance, (having a) name > the named.
Non- Being (wu): not having, not existing, emptiness, ( not having a) name > the nameless.

[ Edit: source: https://tao-in-you.com/to-have-not-to-have-in-tao-te-ching/ ]

In V1 - it's about the name or concept and the way it exists or operates outside of the boundaries of language, the unmanifest.

The nameless was the beginning of heaven and earth;
The named was the mother of the myriad creatures. — Valentinus

In V 11 - it's about the substance and lack.

Cut out doors and windows to make a house.
Through its non-being (wu),
There is (yu) the use (yung) of the house. — T Clark

Where you read substance and lack I see being and non-being; 10,000 things and Tao. I think we're talking about different things, but I'm not sure. — T Clark

From my understanding the Tao is the way or course or path of all things.
For this to be effective, or of benefit, we need to see the usefulness of wu, the empty aspect, as well as the yu, the substance.

When we assess the value or quality of anything e.g. the book, the TTC, we don't just look at the primary objective properties or qualities of it ( the cover, presentation ), we look at the secondary qualities, the subjective ( the reading, the meaning, the subjective interpretations).

I went and bought his book. I'm glad you found it. Thanks. — T Clark

I'm glad you found it useful. It might not always be to your liking though.

Ivanhoe was recommended to me by a friend who read the translation as part of an anthology:  "Readings in Classical Chinese Philosophy".
I found and downloaded the excerpt ( Chapter 4 ) from: https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

I think the book might be better, perhaps with more information.
Look forward to hearing more...

They also classify flavors into five categories which generally match those we use. Maybe the use of these words references division of the natural world into rigid conventional categories. "The five colors blind a person's eyes" might mean that thinking in terms of those categories keeps us from seeing the world directly. I haven’t seen this interpretation anywhere else. — T Clark

I think this is right.
Your interpretation is in keeping with that of Ivanhoe's notes concerning V12.

First, his translation:

The five colours blind our eyes.
The five notes deafen our ears.
The five flavours deaden our palates.
The chase and hunt madden our hearts.
Precious goods impede our activities.
This is why sages are for the belly and not for the eye;
And so they cast off the one and take up the other.

His notes:
These sets of five refer to the conventional standards of evaluation in regard to the different sensory faculties. The passage is not a rejection of the pleasures of the senses nor does it express skepticism regarding the senses per se. Rather, like the view one finds in Zhuangzi, Chapter 2 ( see pp. 209-19), it expresses a profound distrust of conventional categories and values and advocates moderation of sensual pleasures.
------

The eyes should not look frantically. Regarding frantically leaks out vital essence. — T Clark

This ties in with ' the chase and hunt maddens our hearts'.

It makes sense to me as someone who can become overwhelmed with all that is out there and wanting to find out more...
When I should be settling down to the book; simply reading and enjoying the poetry and words conveying wisdom. To digest and then discuss.

I think @Possibility with her own interpretation is practising and explaining this perfectly :sparkle:

Therefore, the sage seeks only what he needs, not what he sees (acts in the capacity of his belly, not his eye). So he foregoes that in order to choose this.

I remember as a child being scolded by my mother (who grew up in Singapore) when I dished up a quantity of food I couldn’t finish: “your eyes were too big for your belly”.

All of this refers back to the relation between substance and lack: if we concentrate only on filling our world to the brim, then it leaves no room to appreciate wu in relation to the Tao. — Possibility

Another :up:

The message of TTC is realization of the duality; the intellectual being a tool that can assist us if we accept its impermanent nature, but always pointing towards the non-intellectual where The Truth resides. — synthesis

Thanks synthesis.
I am sure that all this analytical 'doing' will be the 'undoing' of me.
I have decided to take it easy and go with the flow, wherever it leads...

I agree — Valentinus

Well, that was a welcome surprise, thank you.

I was trying to express that up-thread by saying that the agenda Lao Tzu strives to replace is not the same kind he is advocating for. That difference is where the Taoist challenges many views of Confucius. — Valentinus

I have missed parts of this thread, so thanks for spelling that out. Most helpful.

Pretty sure :cool:

I hadn't a clue who you were talking about so I did my usual.
Found this:
https://www.udiscovermusic.com/stories/the-billion-dollar-quintet/

I just love the story of how the individual great talents came together to form the Traveling Wilburys.
Also, how they combined to create a song like 'Handle With Care'. There's even a wiki article on that !

Grateful for the pdf link. Will read later.

Again this is fascinating and worthy of further discussion.
I think others interested in e.g. the philosophy of language will miss this gem, hidden away here.
Thanks.

Thank you for this. I will have to read carefully. It requires more time and thought.
It really deserves its own thread. Perhaps in the Philosophy of Language ?

The rejection of a manual requires its own manual. — Valentinus

Perhaps, yes. So many 'How To...' Handbooks' about all kinds of subjects.

In my previous post, I was talking not about rejecting a manual or looking for another manual.
It was about the outcome of having read and practised your chosen manual so that it becomes natural.

You don't have to think about how to act; you have internalised the careful process of observation, assessment, evaluation so that it becomes second nature.
You no longer need to carry the physical book around with you.
Basically, applied wei wu wei.

However, as you say, there is still the chance that it no longer suits your purposes and so you might look for something else...
Perhaps a manual in how to choose a manual. Philosophy ?

Nothing is set in stone.
I think it is important not to be rigid with fixed beliefs.
I think that reading the TTC and similar can help increase flexibility and and awareness of our own limited perspectives.

'Handle With Care' - The Traveling Wilburys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o4s1KVJaVA

https://genius.com/Traveling-wilburys-handle-with-care-lyrics

I think you are being a good participant in this discussion. "Limited understanding" certainly describes my situation now. You've been around the forum for a while. You should be used to people not understanding what you're trying to say or disagreeing with you. — T Clark

Thanks. I am doing my best in reading this book for the first time. It is good to be in the company of those who have read it before, attended discussion groups and more besides in the way of practice.

'Limited' could describe all of our current understanding. It is relative.
I did feel that with all your experience you knew quite a bit more.
And I did feel awkward offering help by explaining something which I saw fairly intuitively.
Perhaps because I didn't appreciate any complexity and I wasn't looking for something profound.

Yes. Like you, I have been around not only this forum for a while. It doesn't take long for anyone to know the score re misunderstandings, real or deliberate.

I suggest, if you're hoping for a response from a particular person, you tag the post for that person. — T Clark

Yes, that is always an option in a particular case. Most times people respond to the flow of posts and quotes.
Despite participating here for a while, I am still not au fait with all the functions.
For example, the 'view original comment' arrow. And probably many more I haven't used.

Anyway, I think this post is another distraction from the main event. So I will let it go...
Carry on with the plan, Sam.

My plan is to pick out my favorite verses and discuss them. — T Clark

This being able to perceive seems to be related to a number of places in Dao De Jing where the follower of the way is described as "hesitant." This language is used in verse 15, for instance. — Valentinus

Thanks for pointing that out. I will look for that later...

Another element of the butcher story that pertains to the being nonbeing distinction discussed here is that joints are the empty or undetermined parts of an animal. The butchers work is effortless because he never tries to cut in any other place. — Valentinus

Yes. The space around the bones of the joint - the natural divisions as in the real world.

I go along with the natural makeup, strike in the big hollows, guide the knife through the big openings, and follow things as they are. So I never touch the smallest ligament or tendon, much less a main joint.

We can see how this might relate to our navigating the real world.
It isn't about some knowledge of a spiritual force, available only to the few.
We have to make our way through events as they arise.
There is no time to consult a manual, map or master.

The question is how do we prepare ourselves for any tough bits ?
We can't always.
However, if we have internalised, experienced or practised a set of basic principles or morals, a way of looking at the world, then we might arrive at the best possible solution.

and then I wipe off the knife and put it away.'

There is care not only in the process but in looking after the tools involved.
So, in any analysis of text, we need a sharp brain !
And that leads to the other aspects of holistic care...

English, on the other hand, assumes that our position in relation to the language is fixed, even though we know that’s not true. — Possibility

I don't understand this. Where is the assumption that our position is fixed ?

Chinese characters don’t seem to presume a particular affect, only a particular quality...They simply present the idea in a particular logical relation to other ideas, and the reader then brings their own subjective relation (including affect) to that structure. — Possibility

Not sure if I understand this either. However, I do note their sparse code-like nature compared to the longer and extravagant English translations.
Where does the logical relationship lie in between the characters or ideas. In the space ?
I don't see the logical aspect here.

That is such an amazing post. I love it :starstruck:

A profound song from an unusual perspective. Usually, it's from the old to the young, saying I'm a lot like you were. You too will get old !

There's a poem 'What do you see, Nurse ?' to a young nurse from an older patient. And the response from a nurse.
https://thenerdynurse.com/poetic-exchange-between-a-patient-and-nurse/

It starts with:

What do you see, nurse, what do you see?
What are you thinking when you’re looking at me?
A crabby old woman, not very wise,
Uncertain of habit, with far away eyes.

Who dribbles her food and makes no reply
When you say in a loud voice, “I do wish you’d try?”
Who seems not to notice the things that you do,
And forever is losing a stocking or shoe..

Later...
But inside this old carcass a young girl still dwells,
And now and again my battered heart swells.
I remember the joys, I remember the pain,
And I’m loving and living life over again...

Only recently did I realize how this soulful, old song had seeped into my bones decades ago and then in years since would spark these speculations on my/our many-tensed selves ... — 180 Proof

I too am coming to a later realisation of the meaning of songs.
It is beautiful to be able to do this...and share :sparkle:

I think Lao Tzu is making a distinction here between substantial value (benefit) and immaterial potentiality. Value is the capacity or ability that exists in what is; potentiality is the capacity or ability that exists in what is not - but can be, was before, or might have been. It is this relational structure to the world, between substance and its lack, that all action, dynamic, movement, change, creation and destruction derives from. — Possibility

This articulate and clear explanation makes complete sense to me.
I might just have to print it out for later reference :cool:

But I won’t explore this approach further - there doesn’t seem to be much interest in it here... — Possibility

There is interest, indeed fascination, on my part. The comparison site you linked to was a great find.
I should have given feedback at the time, sorry, but I needed to understand the fundamentals first.

I used it to click on the Chinese characters and compare the three translations and that of Ivanhoe, Chapter ( Verse) 16.

What struck me was the use of the word 'evil' in the 3.
In Ivanhoe, it is 'wantonly produce misfortune'.
I eventually found the relevant Chinese characters which matched up.
They don't seem to talk of 'evil' as such but of 'terrible, fearful..'

I was reminded of Searle's Chinese Room argument. The characters on their own, as per the website anyway, present as a simple code. There is no meaning. They have to mean more than the 'click tip' suggests otherwise how could translators even begin to interpret.

It is not clear to me how helpful it is to click on the symbols to reach an understanding. Even someone whose first language is Chinese won't understand the text simply by knowing the language. Just as a native German speaker will not understand Hegel.

Anyway, as someone who loves languages and is intrigued by the various translations and interpretations, I have been following your explorations and approach with interest.
Sorry, I didn't give that feedback before. I am simply overwhelmed by all of this.

Looking forward to more discussion.

What does a hammer basically need to enable it to function or realise its purpose ?
'A hammer is a tool consisting of a weighted "head" fixed to a long handle that is swung to deliver an impact to a small area of an object.'
So, pretty much, simple substance.
— Amity

Not really - a hammer can’t swing itself. It’s a vital piece of what makes the hammer a hammer that is missing from its existence. This aspect of its definition - ‘that is swung to deliver an impact’ - refers to wu: the lack that pertains to the hammer’s potentiality. — Possibility

Yes. I had thought of the agency required to swing the hammer. Also, the space in which it moves and the energy used. I added the word' basically' in recognition of the fact that more was required.
However, I couldn't see how this was the missing 'wu'. I am grateful for your clear explanation.
It makes sense now. 'The lack that pertains to the hammer's potentiality'.
So, that's another step along the way in understanding. Way to go :cool:

I'm ok with that here, but just to be clear, I don't think the 10,000 things have to be substantial, i.e. material. I think love is one of the 10,000 things. — T Clark

Yes. I think I was wrong to use the word 'substance' as a replacement for 'being'. The term 'substance' can be misleading. It was just how I tried to get my head around it...
I agree that the things we encounter don't necessarily have to be physical. Again, the term 'being' can be misleading too.

I don't see what it has to do with Verse 11. — T Clark

OK. The part you took out was from my lengthier post in response to your:

I’ve never liked this verse. It doesn’t make sense to me. It seems like it’s changing the meaning of being and non-being. In the wheel, pot, or house, the non-being is created by being. In other uses we’ve seen, non-being creates being. Is this just a metaphor? A pun on “emptiness”. Saying the emptiness of a pot is similar to the emptiness of the Tao. The Tao is not nothing, it is no-thing.

I don’t get the being = benefit, non-being = use thing. Again – I would have thought that we use a hammer, one of the 10,000 things, part of being. How do we use the Tao? — T Clark

As a beginner, I should have realised that in dealing with my own limited understanding, I should steer clear of attempts to help.

I think you've seen that I'm pretty good at responding to others' posts. — T Clark

Yes.

I respond to other posts if I think I have something worthwhile to contribute. — T Clark

I have read the verse from the Chuang Tzu you quoted. I think it is a good example of wu wei. — T Clark

I not only quoted the story, I made additional comments see my post to @Wayfarer.
Thanks for your contribution :smile:

Yes... learners progress through four stages - unconscious incompetence (I don't know what that is') conscious incompetence ('I don't know how to do that'), conscious competence ('I can do that if I really try') unconscious competence - mastery or 'second nature' i.e. something that can be performed effortlessly. (Like watching a great pianist - they make it look easy.) Wu-wei is a form of mastery or 'second nature'. — Wayfarer

Thanks for this. The comments I wrote after linking to the Cook Ding story took me some effort and time to compose. I should have made it clear that although it might be seen as a repetition of what I had posted before re dancers, it was more than that.

It included the idea of 'resistance'. Where there is no resistance, action is effortless. Where we meet resistance, or obstacles on the path, then action is deliberate. A different process is required before we can attain our objective. I mentioned keen observation, careful assessment and slow movement.
I think the quality of care is important.

As a learner at the 'conscious incompetence' stage, I need to understand the fundamentals before progress can be made. I appreciate any feedback, even - perhaps especially - if I get it wrong.
You learn by your mistakes. This thread has been helpful in so many ways.

I’ve never liked this verse. It doesn’t make sense to me — T Clark

Just a quick response:
To help me understand this, I replace 'being' with 'substance'.

Seems to be about how we function or what our purpose is in life.
What do we need to enable us to progress through life. Some might say the Tao or similar.

Our body as a container consisting of mere flesh and bones ( substance ) doesn't cut it.
To work, to be all we can be, we need our brain with mind, or spirit (non-substance).
To perceive, to think, to connect to others. To maintain the bodily functions together with the mind.
Some might be able to do this naturally, others need guidance. We are complex.

What does a hammer basically need to enable it to function or realise its purpose ?
'A hammer is a tool consisting of a weighted "head" fixed to a long handle that is swung to deliver an impact to a small area of an object.'
So, pretty much, simple substance.

Re the 'benefit' aspect.
From Mitchell - ' we work with being, but non-being is what we use'
From Ivanhoe - ' And so, what is there is the basis for profit; What is not there is the basis for use.

What is there is the basic material. It is kinda good to have. It is of benefit.

I hope to be given feedback to this and my earlier post re the wei wu wei story.

'If I Had a Hammer' - Peter, Paul and Mary (in 1963)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxWTDcP9Y5E

I had no idea that this song was so controversial... until I read it this morning:

[The right-wing magazine] 'Counterattack' and the FBI succeeded in blacklisting the Weavers, but If I Had A Hammer was unconquerable. The song had a specific radical message in 1952; when Seeger suggested the Weavers perform it on bookings, one of them answered, "Oh no. We can't get away with anything like that."

"Why was it controversial?" Pete reflected. "In 1949 only 'Commies' used words like 'peace' and 'freedom'. ... The message was that we have got tools and that we are going to succeed. This is what a lot of spirituals say. We will overcome. I have a hammer. [...] No one could take these away." The Weavers never had the opportunity to make a hit of this - that honor fell to Peter, Paul and Mary - but they had the satisfaction of seeing that no edict and no committee could kill [the] song. (Dunaway, Seeger 157)

[1989:] It was becoming dangerous to be a performer if you were suspected of having left-wing views, and the following year Seeger and [Paul] Robeson faced their most dangerous concert of all. The venue was Peekskill, New York State, where on 4 September 1949 they both appeared at an outdoor show that turned into one of the most terrifying and violent events in the history of pop music.

http://mysongbook.de/msb/songs/i/ifihhamm.html

f I had a hammer I'd hammer in the morning
I'd hammer in the evening all over this land
I'd hammer out danger, I'd hammer out warning
I'd hammer out love between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land

If I had a bell I'd ring it in the morning
I'd ring it in the evening all over this land
I'd ring our danger, I'd ring out warning
I'd ring out love between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land

If I had a song I'd sing it in the morning
I'd sing it in the evening all over this land
I'd sing out danger, I'd sing out warning
I'd sing out love between my sisters and my brothers
All over this land

When I've got a hammer, and I've got a bell
And I've got a song to sing all over this land
It's a hammer of justice, it's a bell of freedom
It's a song about love between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land

(as sung by Peter Paul & Mary)

I heard that song a lifetime ago but never really listened to it until now.
So good.

An instructive story regarding wei wu wei, literally 'doing not-doing'.

Cook Ding Cuts Up an Ox

Cook Ding was cutting up an ox for Lord Wenhui. At every touch of his hand, every heave of his shoulder, every move of his feet, every thrust of his knee — zip, zoop! He slithered the knife along with a zing, and all was in perfect rhythm, as though he were performing the Dance of the Mulberry Grove or keeping time to the Jingshou Music.

'Ah, this is marvelous!' said Lord Wenhui. 'Imagine skill reaching such heights!'

Cook Ding laid down his knife and replied, 'What I care about is the Way [Dao], which goes beyond skill. When I first began cutting up oxen, all I could see was the ox itself. After three years I no longer saw the whole ox. And now, now I go at it by spirit and don't look with my eyes. Perception and understanding have come to a stop and spirit moves where it wants. I go along with the natural makeup, strike in the big hollows, guide the knife through the big openings, and follow things as they are. So I never touch the smallest ligament or tendon, much less a main joint.

'A good cook changes his knife once a year — because he cuts. A mediocre cook changes his knife once a month — because he hacks. I've had this knife of mine for nineteen years and I've cut up thousands of oxen with it, and yet the blade is as good as though it had just come from the grindstone. There are spaces between the joints, and the blade of the knife has really no thickness. If you insert what has no thickness into such spaces, then there's plenty of room — more than enough for the blade to play about it. That's why after nineteen years the blade of my knife is still as good as when it first came from the grindstone.

'However, whenever I come to a complicated place, I size up the difficulties, tell myself to watch out and be careful, keep my eyes on what I'm doing, work very slowly, and move the knife with the greatest subtlety, until — flop! the whole thing comes apart like a clod of earth crumbling to the ground. I stand there holding the knife and look all around me, completely satisfied and reluctant to move on, and then I wipe off the knife and put it away.'

'Excellent!' said Lord Wenhui. 'I have heard the words of Cook Ding and learned how to [nurture] life!'"

https://navigatingthezhuangzi.weebly.com/cook-ding-cuts-up-an-ox.html

It shows effortless action in rhythm with the way things are.
With skilled precision, not looking or hacking, the ox is cut according to its joints; its natural divisions.
Spirit moves to take the place of perception and understanding. It is spontaneous action.
His actions are effortless because there is no resistance when one moves with the ways things are rather than against them.

But just as in the case of dancers and sportsmen, this wasn't always the case.
It took him years of learning and continual practice.
That is, conscious action before he could move beyond skill. Doing then not-doing.

The story show that difficulties can still be encountered along the way.
There can be resistance.
Then he has to assess, observe and be careful.
Being attentive, moving the knife slowly to achieve a satisfactory result.
This is deliberate action.

'I'll Stand By You' - Chrissie Hynde ( live with orchestra )

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yyb2RX0hii8

Oh, why you look so sad?
Tears are in your eyes
Come on and come to me now
Don't be ashamed to cry
Let me see you through

'Cause I've seen the dark side too
When the night falls on you
You don't know what to do
Nothing you confess
Could make me love you less

I'll stand by you
I'll stand by you
Won't let nobody hurt you
I'll stand by you

So if you're mad, get mad
Don't hold it all inside
Come on and talk to me now
Hey, what you got to hide?
I get angry too

Well I'm a lot like you
When you're standing at the crossroads
And don't know which path to choose
Let me come along
'Cause even if you're wrong

I'll stand by you
I'll stand by you
Won't let nobody hurt you
I'll stand by you
Take me in, into your darkest hour
And I'll never desert you
I'll stand by you

And when
When the night falls on you, baby
You're feeling all alone
You won't be on your own

I'll stand by you
I'll stand by you
Won't let nobody hurt you

I'll stand by you
Take me in, into your darkest hour
And I'll never desert you
I'll stand by you
I'll stand by you
Won't let nobody hurt you
I'll stand by you
Won't let nobody hurt you
I'll stand by you
I'll stand by you
Won't let nobody hurt you
I'll stand by you
Take me in, into your darkest hour
And I'll never desert you
I'll stand by you

Source: LyricFind
Songwriters: Thomas Kelly / Christine Hynde / Billy Steinberg

Leonardo da Vinci's Cartoon
http://www.leonardo-da-vinci.net/cartoon-of-st-anne/

Kept in the dark room at the National Gallery, it inspired a young poet, Elsie Hayward.
https://poems.poetrysociety.org.uk/poems/cartoon/

This love is kept in the dark.
You only visit it, through curtain
Of hush and black, you step
Into a different colour of time.
There is no eye meeting yours,

But a presence echoes softly,
A far-off lullaby descending
Dim staircase of years, reaching
Through layers of silent dark
To put a finger to half-smiling lips.

The bodies are near, their shapes
Too melted, flowing, for time to wrap
And carry away. This is all time.
This is flowers coming to bloom
Beneath ancient, yellowing haze,

This is warmth of lines meeting,
Skin against skin, hidden in coolness,
The softly steel cradle of gentle
Strokes, blanket of tender watch.
This is a first idea of love,

A locket always carried. Somewhere
Outside this small still offshoot
Of the real world, the other threads
Of the tapestry, living reflections,
Closer than is thought.

This is the heart that keeps
The darkness thin.

Also, surprisingly there are lyrics buried in the song.

“The best thing about life is knowing you put it together.” — Pinprick

Buried too deep for me, I'm afraid. Where are they supposed to be ?

I read in one of the earlier posts that: 'the deepest tunes have no lyrics'.
It reminded me of a conversation I had with someone who didn't see the point of poetry.
Most of the songs he enjoyed were instrumental.
However, he remembered one with lyrics which moved him.
'Goodnight Saigon' - Billy Joel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjzjhl-QztE

We met as soul mates
On Parris Island
We left as inmates
From an asylum
And we were sharp
As sharp as knives
And we were so gung ho
To lay down our lives

We came in spastic
Like tameless horses
We left in plastic
As numbered corpses
And we learned fast
To travel light
Our arms were heavy
But our bellies were tight

We had no home front
We had no soft soap
They sent us Playboy
They gave us Bob Hope
We dug in deep
And shot on sight
And prayed to Jesus Christ
With all of our might

We had no cameras
To shoot the landscape
We passed the hash pipe
And played our Doors tapes
And it was dark
So dark at night
And we held on to each other
Like brother to brother
We promised our mothers we'd write
And we would all go down together
We said we'd all go down together
Yes we would all go down together

Remember Charlie
Remember Baker
They left their childhood
On every acre
And who was wrong?
And who was right?
It didn't matter in the thick of the fight

We held the day
In the palm
Of our hand
They ruled the night
And the night
Seemed to last as long as six weeks
On Parris Island

We held the coastline
They held the highlands
And they were sharp
As sharp as knives
They heard the hum of our motors
They counted the rotors
And waited for us to arrive
And we would all go down together
We said we'd all go down together
Yes we would all go down together

Songwriters: Billy Joel
For non-commercial use only.
Data from: Musixmatch

What is that if not poetry ?
It's another way to connect...

'End of the Line' - The Traveling Wilburys
(George Harrison, Roy Orbison, Tom Petty, Jeff Lynne, Bob Dylan)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMVjToYOjbM

From now on I'll give the entire verse at the beginning of my post. Do you like the Ivanhoe translation particularly? — T Clark

Thanks. I prefer seeing the whole first before breakdown.
I've just found the Ivanhoe translation and turned to the Verse being discussed.
Too early to say...
But did like the neatness of:
'To produce without possessing;
To act with no expectation of reward;'

The way I set up my post for Verse 10, but cutting it all up in pieces, made it so I never looked at the whole verse as one piece. So, anyway, here's the whole verse, Chen version: — T Clark

Appreciate seeing the whole Verse or Chapter as it is called in the Philip Ivanhoe translation.

The final part of Chapter Ten:

Comprehending all within the four directions, can you reside in nonaction?
To produce them !
To nurture them !
To produce without possessing;
To act with no expectation of reward;
To lead without lording over;
Such is Enigmatic Virtue !

And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

And - which is more - you'll be a Sage, my son. — T Clark

No sexism please, we're talking Virtue :smile:
No matter its roots, it's a nonsexual quality...

At the source of the practice, Taoism is gender-neutral religion, emphasizing the dualism and importance of both masculinity and femininity as necessary, complementary forces that cannot exist without each other. '

I didn't have a comment on the letter. — Tom Storm

OK.

The letter is interesting. One can certainly see the anguish in The Metamorphoses. It makes a chilling passage in the story even more chilling — Valentinus

The letter is astonishing.
Appreciate the quotes - they encourage me to read more.

The drive to go beyond the perspective of blame is clearly visible in Kafka's Reflections on Sin, Pain, Hope and the True Way. — Valentinus

I am truly impressed now with Kafka. Getting to know him seems like a good use of time.
Why didn't I see it before ? Possibly limited access, brain caged off or something...

Reading Kafka after the Holocaust gives it a different flavour and I can't unread that particular tragedy in the work.The Trial and Josef K's 'guilt' plays totally differently. We're back to a sinister cage looking for a bird. — Tom Storm

Yup.
I was asking another question.

Understanding Kafka.
Have you read his 'Letter to His Father' ? What do you think of it ?
https://www.brainpickings.org/2015/03/05/franz-kafka-letter-father/ — Amity

No question but generally old farts. I am hearing this from people too young to be able to look back - in their twenties. — Tom Storm

Some of the old farts of today were the blowing-in-the-wind youth of yesteryear. The concerns pretty much the same as the young have today. A universal song for the human race to love and not hate.
Freedom. And so on...

What kind of things are people in their 20's saying about whose past; their own or their parents ?
There's a lot of envy out there...and anger about e.g. baby boomers and any other group of disparate people who lived in different parts of the world during whole chunks of years, decades.

Generalisations and divisions play into the feeling of being hard done by.
Politicians love this...and they are the ones who play a major role in what is available to any of us, regarding a better life. The constraints, the decisions to go to war, freedom of movement...