... other 'big' TV series like  Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Succession, etc. Well written and performed, but I just don't care about the stories or the characters.

No fuckin' doubt, Tom, we be a couple of dusty ol' cocksuckers drinkin' from the same crack'd bottle ... like all them other hoopleheads down on their fuckin' luck, laughin' and pissin' it all away in that limey cocksucker Swearengen's saloon. :smirk: — 180 Proof

I haven't watched any of the series mentioned. Perhaps I just don't care to, for whatever reason.
What is it about the stories or characters that you don't care about? And what makes Al someone you are attracted to?

Be careful @180 Proof being a cocksucker and drinking from a cracked bottle holds all kinds of terrors -germs...bacteria and viruses. But hey, seize the day, eh? Even if only in your imagination...

I haven't read all of your OP but interesting to hear about your use of ChatGPT and your reshaping of prompts. Going with its flow, fleshing out ideas.

In Western countries, Christian nationalism often seeks to impose pro-life policies, ban certain forms of sexual speech in public settings such as libraries and schools, promote Christian ethical teachings in educational curricula, and restrict access to certain websites. Similarly, Islamic nationalism enforces these and many more restrictions, often with even stricter adherence to religious doctrines.

Religionists argue that these restraints are necessary to prevent civilization from descending into decadence and excessive hedonism, where higher values are discarded in favor of simple pleasures. They believe that without these moral guidelines, society would lose its ethical foundation and succumb to chaos. — schopenhauer1

Yes. The argument - or fear of deteriorating morality if there is no appeal to a higher Being or the Word of God - has been going on ad nauseam. Unfortunately, deeply affecting e.g. American politics.
It will be interesting to see how things might change. God seems to be as entrenched as guns.

On the other hand, humanists, existentialists, and secularists who hold notions of "virtue" or "civic virtue" argue that Enlightenment values can temper the excesses of pure hedonism in a secularized society.
— schopenhauer1

I read years ago that sexual products and services including production and distribution of pornography generate many times the revenue of, say, sports broadcasting. I see not a lot of comment from those espousing ‘enlightenment values’ in that regard.

When there’s discussion of the possible connection between pornography and sexual violence against women, there’s a lot of throat-clearing about the evils of censorship and a correct understanding of ‘consent’. — Wayfarer

I hope nobody objects but I have shared the above in another thread. It touched on my thoughts regarding stories and any 'catharsis' gained.
From @Jack Cummins - 'Tragedy and Pleasure?'
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/923721

It's not only online pornography that shapes attitudes towards violence against women. Most thrillers - Nordic Noir - continue to have women as victims. Men, with or without religious beliefs, as perps.
Arguably, the Bible Story with its power and paternalism is used by some to justify any behaviour. And promote any malevolent political policy. The hypocrisy breath-taking.

Also, the whole idea of catharsis was central to his perspective on therapy. The idea was that the ventilation of emotional expression is the road to 'cure'. This was based on his work with patients.

The problem which I see is that it does not always follow that ventilation of emotions and traumatic experiences will lead to a cure and the CBT therapists see him psychodynamic therapy as placing too much emphasis on the past. — Jack Cummins

Interesting to read your thoughts on Freud. I have sympathy with the idea of 'ventilation' - or talk therapy being available as a treatment not a 'cure'. Are they the same thing? I think letting all emotions out can open a can of worms, making matters worse. A bit like the punch-bag theory of anger management. It is only a temporary release or relief. But again, it depends on the aims and abilities of both therapist and client...

However, the emphasis he placed on sexuality had a profound influence on culture and dealing with the repression of sexual aspects of life. It may be central to pleasure itself and it would be hard to imagine trajedy without a sexual aspect.

The nature of trajedy itself may be about the way in which sexuality causes conflict and potential destruction. His philosophy, which drew upon mythology, emphasised the tension between Eros and Thanatos, the life and death drives/instincts. — Jack Cummins

Sex/uality and the tragedy/pleasure/comic aspects of life/death survival instincts...
I can't help coming back to Deadwood. The discussion has been informative but there is something still nagging at me. Troubling even, as I also consider the possibility of 'catharsis' in viewers. What is it that mostly gives 'pleasure'? Male and female camaraderie?

This morning, I read something by @Wayfarer - I hope he doesn't mind me transferring his thoughts here?:

On the other hand, humanists, existentialists, and secularists who hold notions of "virtue" or "civic virtue" argue that Enlightenment values can temper the excesses of pure hedonism in a secularized society.
— schopenhauer1

I read years ago that sexual products and services including production and distribution of pornography generate many times the revenue of, say, sports broadcasting. I see not a lot of comment from those espousing ‘enlightenment values’ in that regard. When there’s discussion of the possible connection between pornography and sexual violence against women, there’s a lot of throat-clearing about the evils of censorship and a correct understanding of ‘consent’. — Wayfarer

When people watch or read anything concerning sexual violence to any person, gender or age, does it only become a problem when there is addiction? If compulsively following a drama series of violent, degrading behaviour, what kind of 'catharsis' is being felt or even recognised?

Could you cope with a committee of the of the pesky things? — Vera Mont

Ooh err, missus! Who said anything about a 'committee'? The very word makes me shudder. *shudders*
I thought it a case of praying to any muses that might float your fancy. Like Melpomene, Thalia or Erato.
A bit like how Catholics call up St Anthony - that kinda thing.
Or I can see them as spirits of the bar; shaking a cock or mock tail your way...I could cope with that!
A Mock Tale, yay :cool:

When do they start becoming 'pesky' or go AWOL? Hmmm.

:up:

Thank you for this intelligent, informative summary. Words can work wonders, can't they? To read and think imaginatively - to grab, pin down and convey thoughts and ideas in writing - that, for me, is a major challenge. I haven't observed you having much, if any, difficulty but no doubt, when it comes to fiction it's different...
'To wake the Muse'. Is there only one?

And some more fuckin' words to live by:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/792330 — 180 Proof

A fascinating insight.
"I’d rather try touching the moon than take on a whore’s thinking."

Words to live... or die by. I suppose the whores referred to are the female prostitutes? No males, no homosexuality? It's a big white man's world...whoring, being hard and fucking each other.

What would 'trying to touch the moon' mean for Al?
Did he really know the thinking of his whores? How did he view them, other than means to money?
'Taking on' some thoughts is what he apparently managed. He empathised with being a victim, being brought to his knees. He didn't like it up him either.

There are certainly more eloquent lines in Deadwood than “I don’t like it, either.” But after rewatching all three seasons of the great HBO western this spring, they’re the words I can’t get over. As uttered by a sex worker named Dolly (Ashleigh Kizer), who spends most of her screen time between the legs of Ian McShane’s coarse saloon owner Al Swearengen, they constitute an assertion of personhood from a heretofore insignificant character. “They hold you down from behind,” Al fumes, as she kneels beside him. “Then you wonder why you’re helpless. How the f-ck could you not be?”

He’s referring to powerful men like George Hearst (Gerald McRaney), who is slowly bringing Al—along with everyone else in the prosperous frontier mining camp of Deadwood—to his metaphorical knees. And so it’s jarring when Dolly replies “I don’t like it, either,” because she’s really talking about the johns who physically pin her down during sex. “I guess I do that, too, with your f-ckin’ hair,” Al muses, his voice softening to an uncharacteristic whisper. Though he does plenty of despicable things in the subsequent eight episodes of the show’s final season, he never treats Dolly so roughly again. — Time - Deadwood was the rare show about men that did women justice

It's bound to be brutal and nasty.
— Amity
Nevertheless, intriguing. — Vera Mont

'Brutal and nasty' as depicted traditionally and contemporary (personal, social relationships and economic/political dynamics) will intrigue the curious and those willing to compare and contrast perspectives. Human behaviour. Aren't we all psychologists?

Here, we can share memories of past TV programmes; Western sets/characters ridiculed. How could we ever have been be scared by the Daleks in Dr.Who? Clunky, metal boxes on wheels, vocally challenged and probing with a sink plunger. The iconic "Exterminate"! Perhaps a single, menacing word can trigger deep, basic fears or past trauma...some things never change.

There are always foes to be fought but friends sought too, sometimes. Drama needs a balance for it to work well. To release emotions and make us think. Hence the OP...'Tragedy and Pleasure?'.
As the world moves on, so must we take into account new concerns. New elements related to the environment and AI. Our brains are bombarded with conflicting accounts, or even washed by the wicked.

There is a need to switch off, sit back and be entertained. Even intellectuals need simple. Balance.
Disengagement before re-engaging.

Yes, I know that preferring entertainment over heavy philosophical content is frivolous, but I'm okay with that.
— Vera Mont

I think Deadwood works well as entertainment and at a deeper level. — Tom Storm

Like most art forms, then? We can enjoy the simple pleasures, possibly 'catharsis' without being too analytical even as strong ideas/messages might be slipped in surreptitiously for consumption. A bit like kids not being force-fed green vegetables and fruit but enjoying as burgers or milk shakes.

But it is violent and pessimistic. In that way, it is not much different to other long form, scrupulously written, television shows. The performances and the script are astonishing. — Tom Storm

From the little I've read, it doesn't sound like 'wall-to-wall' violence and pessimism. It includes humour and hope as most tragedies must.

Gaskell's account reveals there is no significant difference between genders and class in the experience of self-interest. We pursue what is best for us. The difference of outcomes come about from slight gains or losses of self-awareness in each person. And nobody gets to check the scorecard since it involves life beyond one's view. — Paine

Yes, no matter the differences between humans, mostly it comes down to ego ( back to Freud?).
The outcomes of our pursuits, including watching drama, will partly depend on our willingness or personal freedom to become open to others. To learn. Not to avoid that which is uncomfortable or not to our taste. To grow and develop.
But, hey, we all have our comfort zones. Even philosophers... having found their niche or income.

We pursue what is best for us.
— Paine

We pursue what we believe to be best for us - and sometimes what we know to be bad for us, yet want anyway. — Vera Mont

Oh yeah, gimme that bar of chocolate...Now!

And of course, we don't always 'know' what might be best for us at any given time or the consequences of following certain choices. Therein lies the fun of it...and our stories...the tragi-comedy.
'All's well that ends well'? Somebody might have said...or questioned...

Update: I did get some commentary on the making of the series and some excerpts.
I've concluded that I will not be making a heroic effort to see it. Whatever its literary and dramatic merits - and I gather they are prodigious - it's not my idea of entertainment. — Vera Mont

I was surprised that you were even considering it! It's bound to be brutal and nasty. I haven't even looked at excerpts and since I can't watch for free... there's no boldly going forth to face up to any horrors...

At 78, whatever I still need to learn about the human condition will probably come unbidden, in humiliating, inelegant forms. I don't need to watch other people pretend to get there first. — Vera Mont

It's being so cheerful that keeps you going! Wise Old Gal :wink:

Ciao, javi :cool:

Preferisco una pizza Margherita e poi un gelato alla pesca e poi un Ugo e poi... :party:

Earlier version of Sole e Malato:
Domenico Modugno - Sole malato (Remastered) (6 - CD1)


Remembered for his winning song at the Sanremo Festival 1958, coming 3rd in the 3rd Eurovision Contest. Orchestra, dinner jacket and bow tie. How things have changed...
ESC 1958 01 - Italy - Domenico Modugno - Nel Blu Dipinto Di Blu (Volare)

Awesome isn't he?

Deep Down seems to be the most popular cut from that project. — AmadeusD

'Awesome' is quite the understatement! But when other words fail me, it'll do nicely!
The complete works - a major achievement - wowing the eyes and ears, body and mind...
I can't thank you enough :sparkle:

And it's no surprise that Deep, Deep, Down came top of my search list. It's the Enrico Morricone sound.
The stupendous trumpet player (Roy Paci) and Patton's voice as instrument - at 28:52 and 30:41.


The Metropole Orkest is out of this world, magnificent. The backing singers. The whole shebang sweeps and soars! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropole_Orkest

Patton's versatility as he rocks from 1:09:57 with 'Yeeeah!', straight into the smoothly, romantic 'Senza Fine' - his thanks to the orchestra, individual players and conductor. What an atmosphere...
Then, completing the set with a sublime twosome: 'Una Sigaretta' - smoky, sexy, sultry 1:20:39.
E poi, e poi...'Sole e Malato'.

I know, I know. I couldn't resist it. I was imagining him as a Deadwood character!

I am reading, 'Why Does Trajedy Give Pleasure? by A. D. Nuttall (1996), which I picked on a library shelf because I saw it as an interesting question. The author looks at Aristotle's ideas, especially catharsis, Freud's thinking about 'the pleasure principle' [...]

Nuttall suggests that Freud depended on 'that great mass of repressed matter, the Unconscious'. He also looks at Freud's understanding of the Pleasure Principle, including the expression of sexuality and how Freud showed how sexual gratification 'was curbed by the deadening restrictions of civilisation,' with 'Freud's State of Nature' being ' like the fierce "war of every man in Hobbes's 'Leviathan'." ' — Jack Cummins

Freud must be feeling seriously left out of our discussion. How frustrating!
The expression or suppression of sexuality related to civilisation. Law and order, rising from the muddy swamp. How far have we come?

What is the Pleasure Principle? The driving force of the id seeking instant gratification of all needs, wants and primitive urges including sex.
How is this related to the art of tragedy/drama, its writers and audience?

According to Aristotle, the purpose of tragedy is to arouse “terror and pity” and thereby effect the catharsis of these emotions. So, there is a release of what we might be feeling but unwilling or scared to uncover or show. A way of coping?

A view of what humans are like deep down in the darkest recesses of the mind.
Cue Deadwood!
I wondered whether this drama appealed more to men than women. The grab for gold and power; the manipulations and realisations of women in a man's world.
Sex and its use/abuse in the unfolding process of becoming civilised...

If You Want to Know Why Deadwood Is a Classic, Look to Its Women
(8min read):
https://time.com/5597321/deadwood-movie-hbo-women/

Deadwood can be read as a power struggle between three archetypes of American machismo:[...] But, more than any other show of its kind, it understands the impossibility of discussing men and power without creating equally vivid female characters [...]

The show’s aesthetics echo its themes. As the man whose gaze shapes our understanding of each woman, Milch mostly avoids hypocrisy by minimizing scenes that use their bodies purely for titillation or as sites of violence. Unlike Game of Thrones, 13 Reasons Why or the increasingly incoherent feminist polemic that is The Handmaid’s Tale, Deadwood shows almost none of the rape, abuse and exploitation that its characters experience. Layered dialogue and subtle acting prove more effective at communicating women’s (and in some cases men’s) trauma than lurid visuals.

I have never been tempted to watch The Handmaid's Tale, but I am increasingly drawn to the depths of Deadwood. Whether it's a 'modern tragedy' or an 'absurdist historical drama' or a combination of both doesn't really matter.
It serves as an appreciation of humans - how we rise and fall in tragi-comedy.

As for Freud...is that a gun in his pocket?

Thank you for a helpful, short and succinct reply. I've a feeling you could have said more...but that was enough to make me look further. :cool:

Two of my all-time favorite television shows. I need to watch both again soon.
— 180 Proof
Why? Do you have a thesis to write? — Amity

Intrigued by what is considered 'modern tragedy' and shared descriptions of Deadwood, such as:

...with great subtlety and majestic darkness it explores fate, human suffering, moral dilemmas, loss and characters with fatal flaws. — Tom Storm

I couldn't help but dig more into Deadwood and realise that this TV drama has fascinated many 'deep thinkers' from a variety of fields, including literature and philosophy.

Here's the latest article I've skimmed over:
Chapter 3 of The Invisible Hand in Popular Culture. 25 minute read.
https://paulcantor.io/paul-cantor-works/order-out-of-the-mud

A philosophical analysis of Deadwood with a focus on the concept of the 'state of nature'. The central question: is it possible to have order without law. The abstract dilemma of freedom v law as depicted in Westerns. Hobbes, Locke and Rousseau important figures in American political thinking. It relates their theories, including the background to the creator's (Milch) attraction to and life in Deadwood, its characters...

Some snippets from literary articles:
https://lithub.com/deadwood-tvs-most-literary-show-gets-its-rightful-foul-mouthed-send-off/
Comparisons to Shakespeare:

[...] It’s not hard to imagine Deadwood as the tragedy Shakespeare would have written had he lived long enough to see the American experiment unfold and been hired to write about it for HBO. Some of its soliloquies, especially those Al Swearengen speaks to a decapitated Indian head in a box throughout the series, are as sublimely crafted and as existentially heavy as anything the Bard gave to Hamlet or Lear, Macbeth or Romeo.

But also Milch’s Shakespearean interest in puns and lowbrow humor injects the otherwise dark Deadwood with levity and absurdity. During the film’s first scene where Calamity Jane rides solo to town, she speaks of passing wind and complains of a blister on her left ass cheek. Later, E. B. Farnum does a little I-have-to-pee dance whilst George Hearst goes on and on about the inevitability of progress.
— Literary Hub - Deadwood

Finally, this I enjoyed for its focus on Milch's writing techniques and language:
https://www.hpten.com/all-content/2021/9/30/theme-character-and-language-in-deadwood

Aware of his own compulsions and the solitary stress of writing, Milch wrote by dictation in the presence of others. He would discuss character arcs and plot elements in the writer’s room by committee, and would often change course based on valuable feedback from collaborators, including actors. Lying on the floor in his office, he would dictate script action and dialogue to a typist, often spending hours on single phrases and sentences, retooling them.

This focus on language is one of Deadwood’s great strengths. David Milch explains to Keith Carradine that, because of the idiosyncratic nature of the Old West, language was brute and harsh, but often masked with a Victorian vocabulary due the literary education of some inhabitants. “There was the cohabitation of the primitively obscene with this…ornate presentation,” Milch adds. The unique setting dictated the way of communication between friends and foes, as the chance of violence for a wrong phrase shadowed every interaction. The “thickness” of the language, Carradine notes, intimidated viewers initially. Once you get used to the dialogue, as I too had to do, the language is flourishing and immerses you in the show. — Theme, Character and Language in Deadwood - Half Past Ten

It's been a long while since I've read any of Pratchett, — Wayfaring

I'd read of him but never ventured forth into his amazing world. Right now, it seems to be what I need.

So start anywhere, and enjoy! — Wayfaring

Will do, Wayfaring, and Welcome! I'd given up hope of a response. Thanks :smile:

Prince's solo at the end of this is conclusive proof for the existence of God. — Hanover

Thanks, Hanover :smile:
I don't know about the existence of God but Prince needed a Guardian Angel to stop his backwards fall from stage! An outstanding performance but OTT, I think, for the song 'While My Guitar Gently Weeps'.
I prefer Eric Clapton in Concert for George. Watching this - the talent and togetherness of the line-up of wonderfully close musicians, including Dhani grinning. Something else. Just like his Dad, George :heart:

Concert for George | Live at the Royal Albert Hall | Full Concert 2002


Setlist:
01. Sarve Shaam (Traditional)
02. Your Eyes (Anoushka Shankar)
03. The Inner Light (Jeff Lynne & Anoushka Shankar)
04. Arpan (Ravi Shankar)
05. Sit On My Face (Monty Python)
06. The Lumberjack Song (Monty Python)
07. I Want to Tell You (Jeff Lynne)
08. If I Needed Someone (Eric Clapton)
09. Old Brown Shoe (Gary Brooker)
10. Give Me Love (Give Me Peace on Earth) (Jeff Lynne)
11. Beware of Darkness (Eric Clapton)
12. Here Comes the Sun (Joe Brown)
13. That's the Way It Goes (Joe Brown)
14. Horse to the Water (Jools Holland & Sam Brown)
15. Taxman (Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers)
16. I Need You (Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers)
17. Handle with Care (Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers)
18. Isn't It a Pity (Billy Preston)
19. Photograph (Ringo Starr)
20. Honey Don't (Ringo Starr)
21. For You Blue (Paul McCartney)
22. Something (Paul McCartney & Eric Clapton)
23. All Things Must Pass (Paul McCartney)
24. While My Guitar Gently Weeps (Paul McCartney & Eric Clapton)
25. My Sweet Lord (Billy Preston)
26. Wah-Wah (Eric Clapton & Billy Preston)
27. I'll See You in My Dreams (Joe Brown).

I was wondering what tragedy looked like outside of the classical canon — Tom Storm

OK. So, why did Deadwood, in particular, come to mind as a possibility? I haven't watched it. So haven't a clue! If popular, I doubt most of its audience would reflect on it as a tragedy related to catharsis? It would be a simple, distracting pleasure...both, more?

Thanks for sharing your interpretations. Interesting descriptions of both...but I don't know if I fully understand...or even need to...dig deep down for that matter. The time for that has passed...

Two of my all-time favorite television shows. I need to watch both again soon. — 180 Proof

Why? Do you have a thesis to write? :wink:

Despite receiving a somewhat classical education (Shakespeare/Marlowe/Sophocles/Euripedes) I have no great love of the tradition. — Tom Storm

Perhaps the educators didn't inspire - or just not to your taste. The high ancients and language difficult to relate to. At least you were given a taste or base-line of narrative/history/literature from which to compare and contrast. To follow your preferred medium or entertainment...

"Chacun à son goût" - as some like to say.

↪180 Proof Would you consider Deadwood as an example of a modern tragedy?
— Tom Storm
No, imo, it's more of an absurdist historical drama (if that's not too oxmoronic). Instead I consider the first season of True Detective to be "a modern tragedy". — 180 Proof

Curious as to the question and response. Tom, what made you ask? 180, what is the difference between a modern tragedy and an absurdist historical drama, whatever the hell that is ?
What makes True Detective, S1 a 'modern tragedy'?

But I also want to quote Artaud, whose theory of theatre gives a different picture to the pleasure of tragedy: [...]

Artaud is a more poetic writer and so subject to interpretation, but what I've always taken him to mean is that the function of tragedy is to fulfill our anti-social desires through the magic of theatre: the savage desire to kill your enemy can be not just seen from a distince, but felt in the interior -- so it gives an opposite reason for the pleasure of tragedy. Rather than because we are distant from it we come to experience a part of ourselves that we normally couldn't. — Moliere

Thanks for the introduction to Artaud and his thoughts. This experiencing of the dark side of our nature and the desire to kill - we don't sometimes care to admit. Of course, some revel in it. If we even become aware of it, then guilt can arise and perhaps worse.

I'm thinking of how people can easily become addicted to watching e.g. porn. A natural curiosity and desire leading to internet searches - the dark web - caught up in it even as the person hits Delete! Delete! Desensitisation creeping in so that the tragedy begins. continues. The tragedy of child victims procured and tortured, viewed and shared. The tragedy of the families concerned who...I'll stop there.
What value in any pleasure?

I found Artaud again. Listed in Modern Tragedy in Literature - Theory, Theorists, Works and Arguments: https://english-studies.net/modern-tragedy-in-literature/

There is the relief of not experiencing the bad luck as pointed out by Moliere quoting Lucretius upthread. — Paine

Yes. I seem to have skimmed over @Moliere's post and others. I'll return.

But there are elements that are meant to leave the audience with some discomfort. The theme of blindness and fear of the future started when baby Oedipus is left to die on a hillside. — Paine

Yes, I think any 'tragedy' will bring home elements of natural fears. Of abandonment. Death. Loss of vision. Losing control. Being vulnerable to those in positions of power.

Prophecy is supposed to pierce the invisibility of fate but becomes an instrument of fate in some points of crisis. — Paine

Foresight can be a curse. The self-fulfilling prophecy.

A self-fulfilling prophecy can have either negative or positive outcomes. Merely applying a label to someone or something can affect the perception of the person/thing and create a self-fulfilling prophecy. Interpersonal communication plays a significant role in establishing these phenomena as well as impacting the labeling process [...]

Philosopher Karl Popper called the self-fulfilling prophecy the Oedipus effect:
One of the ideas I had discussed in The Poverty of Historicism was the influence of a prediction upon the event predicted. I had called this the "Oedipus effect", because the oracle played a most important role in the sequence of events which led to the fulfilment of its prophecy. [...] For a time I thought that the existence of the Oedipus effect distinguished the social from the natural sciences. But in biology, too—even in molecular biology—expectations often play a role in bringing about what has been expected. — Self-fulfilling prophecy - wiki

Interesting to consider the role and potential power of the human mind to make things happen simply by believing. Think of how the effects of labelling someone (black, Indian, white or orange) or even insulting political opponents as 'weird' might turn the tide from tragedy to pleasure or v.v. The persuasive, hypnotic power of a 'God'...to be revered, then toppled. So, the cycle goes...

I leave the play less certain of where I live. Maybe I am the one who is blind. — Paine

Exploring, seeking and fumblin' in the dark...that's fine. When vision is lost, other senses come into play.
Listening, touching, licking...tasting all the losses and gains. All in the story bag...

In the time of the pandemic it was a case of watching news to see what was permitted with the changing guidelines. It was also the unveiling of tragedies of deaths throughout the world, with everyone being at risk potentially and responsible for action in not spreading the virus.

Even now, it is possible that there is a moral panic about contamination, even in conjunction with bedbugs rising. — Jack Cummins

My experience ( in Scotland) of the daily updates from political and medical 'expertise', was overall good. The information was valuable and presented calmly. As someone 'vulnerable', I felt protected and served well. I didn't follow all guide-lines slavishly - but kept to the common-sense ones. The shocking aspect was when mask-wearing was politicised and people vilified and called traitor. Especially in America. The hatred coming over the screen was palpable.

The concept of 'moral panic' - I've never really appreciated. I learned it in terms of sociology and how young deviants upset the status quo. Media had a field day with 'Mods and rockers'.
More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

I'm not sure where the 'moral' aspects comes into any fear of contamination or bedbugs...certainly, there are no signs of wide-spread panic around here...I agree there can be stigma with associations of 'dirt'.
Your experience in London - a shocker and sounds like a wild story altogether! I don't know how you are still alive, given that chemicals don't just poison bedbugs.

CCTV cameras - Wow! You have the basis of a brilliant Short Story. Especially, if you have nightmares!
How very pleasing...

I think the tragedy of humans is when we exaggerate the feelings of anxiety>>Fear of the other fuelled. As in Southport - Without knowing full facts, hard right mobs used the killings of 3 children as an excuse for violence and riots when what was needed was peace and calm, respect for those affected. But no...
There is no sense. But apparently, some rare elements are open to discussion with Muslim leaders.
We will see...

Personally, I find that too much drama in real life gets in the way of creative activities, like creative writing and stories It can be as if the outer dramas consume too much inner energy. Of course, the challenge may be to be creative in channelling the difficulties of life into forms of art, but it not an easy task at all. — Jack Cummins

Thanks for the honesty. Clearly, some find it easier than others. Some have a persistent inner drive. Writing is like thinking/breathing. Something done daily. A sense of the absurd and humour can help with perspective.
Life is tragi-comedy. A mix of tough and funny. We get on with it.
Don't let the bed-buggers get you down :wink: Use your superpowers as a writer, yay :strong:

Sophocles' Oedipus the King is worthy of notice in this regard. Oedipus unwittingly accelerates his demise by uncovering the attempts of his parents to avoid their prophesied fates. — Paine

Strangely enough, the story of Oedipus and the 'catharsis' of Aristotle is related in a YouTube TED lesson I caught yesterday but didn't post (with transcript). An easy 4:25 mins:
Why tragedies are alluring - David E. Rivas

The story goes something like this: A royal, rich, or righteous individual — who is otherwise a lot like us — makes a mistake that sends his or her life spiraling into ruin. It's the classic story arc for a Greek tragedy, and we love it so much that we continue to use it today. David E. Rivas shares three critical story components, influenced by Aristotle’s “Poetics,” to help illustrate the allure.

'Stories' which reflect on or puzzle over questions raised by "news in the media" intrigue me most and inspire me to re/tell them.

As far as 'the tragic' goes, my creative stance is much more attuned to 'absurdity' – the distorted lenses through which I watch the world turn my stomach while I laugh to stop from crying. It's almost impossible to create at any level out of ashes or raw sewage of the daily bilge of wanton cruelty and duplicitous stupidity. And yet "You must go on. I can't go on. I'll go on" — 180 Proof

This shows the determination and spirit required to rise above it all. And to not lose your voice but to strengthen it in sharing. Not a 'ramble' to be pardoned but going the distance with well-placed stepping stones. Lighting the way with a kiss of words. Breathing life and bringing love to heart, soul and mind.

feeling the absurd compels some of us to try again and again and ... just in order to breathe freely. 'Well, there ain't no clowns in foxholes' – yeah but why effin' not (since that's probably where clowns are most needed)?! — 180 Proof

Crossing rivers with no falling into streams of self-importance. Simply, personal. A beautiful breath. :flower:
Thank you @180 Proof :heart:

They're forgettable enough — Vera Mont

And then there's my failing memory and my reading of 'mean'. Perhaps I saw any of your alleged meanies as funny...

So, your levels of creativity remain high no matter what the hell is going on?
Pleasure in producing. Dancing in the rain.
Related to personality traits, life circumstances, perspective or philosophy?
I think I'm in danger of taking the thread off-track. Sorry @Jack Cummins !!

What were you saying about dreams? It reminded me of how many TPF short stories were reflections on recurring or disturbing dreams...many concerning houses, from basement to attic. Curious :chin:

How have you found your story-telling affected?
— Amity
I shall rudely borrow this question for a moment, because it bears directly on my response above. — Vera Mont

Not rude at all. I hope other story-tellers jump in! :smile:
I do enjoy your mix; the music and dance of the slow and sardonic. Restful and replenishing.
An alert, awareness of the real...and coping...the voice of experience and joy of creativity.
(I can't remember any short, mean stories?)

More from Mike Patton :cool: :heart:
Mondo Cane - Il Cielo In Una Stanza



Then again, there is Mina, his inspiration? :flower: :fire:
Mina - Il cielo in una stanza (1960)

The most striking aspect of what your post raises is how do the tragic in art and the art of living interact. — Jack Cummins

I appreciate your taking the time to read and comment positively :smile:

It is possible that news in the media is becoming the new tragic drama, rather than individuals' inner journeys taking them to the place of 'better', or ethical living. People may be becoming spectators of the tragic aspects of life through the cultural consumption of manufactured media news. — Jack Cummins

One concern of mine is how 'news in the media' can overwhelm minds to the point where their own creativity is affected. Their imagination is taken up by the never-ending drama of 'What if Trump...?'

It may well be 'manufactured' but the consequences are real. There is real fear; people feel unsafe and the need to flee but can't...there seems to be anger and violence everywhere. But good to hear the other side - where communities came together after the tragedy of the Southport stabbings and the riots that followed. For those not following UK news:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Southport_stabbing

There is an addiction to the highs and lows of what comes next, who says what and is it all real?
Many seem to have found a higher mood and hope; revitalised with the new energy of Kamala Harris. In the UK, the character of Keir Starmer. But who knows...
Just more characters in the page, in the chapter, in the book...of life as we 'know' it.

How have you found your story-telling affected? Your inner journey expressed here is valuable to read and consider...

Thanks for the introduction to Mike Patton.

But he just does so much, across so many fields and genres.. Never ending source of impressive work. — AmadeusD

Given my liking for Italian music, both classical and pop, I was delighted to find this:

Mondo Cane is a 2010 album by Mike Patton. Featuring a forty-member orchestra and fifteen-piece backing band, the album contains a series of cover versions of 1950s and 1960s Italian pop music. Patton conceived of the album while living in Bologna, and became attracted to music he heard on the radio featuring pop singers backed by orchestras [...]
The singer has described his admiration for Morricone's writing, feeling that the composer turned "what could be banal, surface-style pop into really deep, orchestrated, tense and compelling music". Several of the album's songs had been written by Morricone, including "Deep Down", written for the 1968 Mario Bava film Danger: Diabolik. Patton had been aware of the song for some time, having been a fan of the film and Morricone's score; however, the two musicians never actually met or worked together. — Wiki - Mondo Cane - album by Mike Patton

Mike Patton's Mondo Cane-08- Deep Deep Down - Live at the Holland Festival in Amsterdam.

I am reading, 'Why Does Trajedy Give Pleasure? by A. D. Nuttall (1996), which I picked on a library shelf because I saw it as an interesting question. The author looks at Aristotle's ideas, especially catharsis, Freud's thinking about 'the pleasure principle', as well as Nietzsche's understanding of the dark side of human nature. — Jack Cummins

Thank you for sharing this book and the questions arising. It's refreshing to read this thread with its wonderful contributions and your careful responses.

In trying to understand Aristotle's 'catharsis' and Nietzsche's take on 'tragedy', I looked to simple versions. Now, not so able to find or read books I turn to other means. Like YouTube. Cue :roll:

The focus, here, is on Tragedy in Art rather than as personal or 'ordinary' experiences. We don't have to look far to find tragic events in current wars or even, for some, everyday battles against poverty. I doubt that this gives 'pleasure' to many. Most people are not 'performing', nor do they necessarily have the luxury or privilege of 'spectating'. This is basic survival.

Of course, films, books, art etc. reflect individual lives in times, countries - at a distance. They are not 'real' but remote, so can perhaps be 'enjoyed' as exciting. As you say:

the creative arts can be a way of living with suffering and the injustices of life. Both the making and appreciation of art forms may be a way of processing life experiences. — Jack Cummins

And that can lead to 'catharsis': 'The process of releasing, and thereby providing relief from, strong or repressed emotions'.

catharsis, the purification or purgation of the emotions (especially pity and fear) primarily through art. In criticism, catharsis is a metaphor used by Aristotle in the Poetics to describe the effects of true tragedy on the spectator. The use is derived from the medical term katharsis (Greek: “purgation” or “purification”). Aristotle states that the purpose of tragedy is to arouse “terror and pity” and thereby effect the catharsis of these emotions.
His exact meaning has been the subject of critical debate over the centuries. The German dramatist and literary critic Gotthold Lessing (1729–81) held that catharsis converts excess emotions into virtuous dispositions.
Other critics see tragedy as a moral lesson in which the fear and pity excited by the tragic hero’s fate serve to warn the spectator not to similarly tempt providence. The interpretation generally accepted is that through experiencing fear vicariously in a controlled situation, the spectator’s own anxieties are directed outward, and, through sympathetic identification with the tragic protagonist, his insight and outlook are enlarged.

Tragedy then has a healthful and humanizing effect on the spectator or reader. — Britannica

Having just read some Plato and pondering the tragic-comedic aspects of his Dialogues. I found Nietzsche's view fascinating and different to what I had expected:

Why Greek Tragedy is the Greatest Art Form | Nietzsche on Ancient Greek Tragedy (13.26)



Some of my notes:
The intertwining of Tragedy and comedy (5.14) - Tragedy from the perspective of the comical and the experience of the absurd. As a basis for understanding art.
Art as a function for life. Also laughter as a way of coping. Zarathustra - Learn to laugh. Properly. Laugher symbolises The act of self-overcoming (11.04)
Comedy and laughter - an ethic that says yes to life, (12.34) Amor fati - love of fate - don't take ourselves too seriously.

So, you quite rightly point out the connections between the Tragedy of Art and the development of wisdom for living. But looking at examples of how people are surviving at ground-level in Ukraine and Gaza - isn't it the case that the wisdom there is of the practical and stoic kind. Just get on with it. No need for theories...

Here comes the sun! :smile:

Che bella cosa 'na jurnata 'e sole
L'aria serena doppo 'na tempesta
Pe' ll'aria fresca pare già 'na festa
Che bella cosa 'na jurnata 'e sole

What a beautiful thing is a sunny day!
The air is serene after a storm,
The air is so fresh that it already feels like a celebration.
What a beautiful thing is a sunny day!

'At the opening ceremony of the 1920 Summer Olympics in Antwerp, "'O sole mio" was played in place of the Italian national anthem, whose sheet music had not been delivered to the band' -wiki.

'As a tribute to Maestro Pavarotti on his 59th birthday on 12th October, Adams shares with you their performance of 'O Sole Mio filmed in Modena, Italy on 13th September 1994.'

The sheer joy of it all... :cool:

Bryan Adams & Luciano Pavarotti - 'O Sole Mio

Reading about Kamala in Georgia:

US elections 2024
Atlanta rally: Harris tells Trump to ‘say it to my face’ and challenges him to debate
VP touts prosecution record to cheering crowd after state leaders including Stacey Abrams take stage to show support

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jul/30/kamala-harris-atlanta-rally

Never been there. I've only ever visited Georgia via words, film or music. Here's a song I enjoy:

Rainy Night in Georgia - Brook Benton

A rainy night in Georgia
Such a rainy night in Georgia
Lord I believe it's rainin' all over the world
I feel like it's rainin' all over the world

How many times I wondered
It still comes out the same
No matter how you look at it or think of it
Well it's life, and you just got to play the game



Sunnier days ahead? 'It still comes out the same' - the sun's still there in the pouring rain... :sparkle:

OK. Thank you for your clarification. Plenty to consider and question. Too much sometimes...

Socratic philosophy begins with an examination of opinions. — Fooloso4

I suppose 'pander' was the wrong word, then! More of a stimulating mutual intercourse from different perspectives? One perhaps intellectually superior, a leader to the other but both learning?

When you say they are 'spirit' I don't know what that means. Are you introducing ideas of your own? Perhaps the problem is that corporal beings do not know what it is to be an incorporeal being. — Fooloso4

No. The idea of 'spirit' is out there already, you know that! The non-physical part of a person. Or how some might imagine a god. Immaterial magic. Yes, there is a difference in meaning there. And yes, we don't know what it is to be incorporeal but we have imagination and creativity. The problem is perhaps not in our knowing but in our wishing and seeking. Perhaps for some kind of harmony between body, mind and what some call 'spirit' or 'soul'.

Socrates puts being just above pleasing the gods or ourselves. — Fooloso4

Indeed. And so, he pleased himself by being just.

We cannot depend on the gods for the truth. Nor can we depend on the claim that the gods are good in every way. — Fooloso4

Exactly this. Actions speak louder than words.

Which likenesses are we to accept as the truth? Or, are we to accept that every likeness is merely a likeness and as such is to a greater or lesser degree unlike the thing it is said to be a likeness of? — Fooloso4

I don't know about accepting 'truth' from a likeness. I don't even know what that would entail.
If we accept your suggestion about 'accepting' then where does that leave us...?

Snippet from 4 days ago:

Some time ago, following recommendations, I bought 3 of Pratchett's books [*] but never opened them. Part of my problem is that there are too many to choose from and there are different series. I worry that I need to read them in order but apparently this isn't the case?

[*]
The Colour of Magic.
Going Postal
Night Watch

Anyone read these, any or all of of Pratchett? Thoughts? — Amity

I'm quite disappointed not to have any response. Not even a ''Nah, he's rubbish!"
Once upon a time, I remember reading that Pratchett was someone's favourite philosopher (@Banno ?) and wondering why? What is it about his writing that makes him a philosopher? His use of language?

The Greatest Music - thread title.
I can't help wondering about where music and poetry enter the picture when it comes to spirituality/god/
What makes music great?

In writing - some suffering from writer's block refer to missing their Muse.
So, a even atheist might consider creativity and imagination as 'god-like'? Relying on an external and internal voice?
We use the word 'muse' as someone's source of artistic inspiration. Where is the source? Is there any such thing? Is it helpful to blame a missing Muse? An excuse for mental laziness - a lack of self-mastery?

In ancient Greek religion and mythology, the Muses (Ancient Greek: Μοῦσαι, romanized: Moûsai, Greek: Μούσες, romanized: Múses) are the inspirational goddesses of literature, science, and the arts.
They were considered the source of the knowledge embodied in the poetry, lyric songs, and myths that were related orally for centuries in ancient Greek culture. — Muses - wiki

How many Muses? Are/were they all female?
So, spirituality/creativity (feminine?) v rationality/creativity (masculinity?) How long will it be before humans stop thinking that they are separate and one superior to the other?

Poems exploring the intersection of Music and God
1. The Music of the Spheres" by Ralph Waldo Emerson

This enchanting poem by Ralph Waldo Emerson captures the ethereal beauty of music and its connection to the divine. Through vivid imagery, Emerson describes how celestial beings create harmonious melodies that resonate throughout the universe. The poem expresses the belief that music is not only a product of human creativity but rather a divine language that connects us to God:

But far within the music rolled,
Like its own hollow sphere,
And a hover in the silver light
Some fowler's boat was near.

4. "Music" by Anne Brontë

In this introspective poem, Anne Brontë contemplates the transformative power of music and its connection to spirituality. She describes how melodies have the ability to transport the listener to a higher plane of existence, where they become one with the divine. Brontë's words resonate with the inherent spirituality found within music:

It whispers of a spirit free
That soars beyond the sky,
And tells of worlds that yet may be,
When we have ceased to die. — Poem Verse - a harmonious fusion of divine melodies

"Properly understanding" God means to be able to say what god is. Apparently, this is, according to this passage, something we are unable to do.

Added: As with other 'what is' questions he is looking for what all that is called 'god' has in common and distinguishes it from all else. — Fooloso4

Perhaps it is more to do with 'How' a god is, rather than 'What' he it is?
(Can't seem to get away from the image of a Christian God :roll: )
To individual minds and life experience. What is the essence of any spirit we might imagine? I tend to think in terms of 'goodness'.

I'm puzzling over the word 'god'.
— Amity

As well you should be! We should keep in mind that Socrates was sentenced to death for impiety. Much of what Plato has Socrates say in the dialogues reflects what was common opinion. We are not likely to find much that overtly goes against those beliefs. — Fooloso4

So, when Socrates is talking with Phaedrus, he is appealing to 'god' from a shared perspective? Or is he pandering to him?

Monotheistic assumptions seem to inform some translations as well as some readers' interpretation — Fooloso4

Yes, I can appreciate that some who can't see or believe other than their own 'g/God' will think differently re the meaning of 'soul', for example. Hence, the never-ending philosophising over Plato's Dialogues.
I don't really want to head in that direction.

The singular 'god' appears in a few places in the Phaedrus. One notable place:

... without seeing or properly understanding god, we do imagine some living creature possessing a soul and possessing a body which are conjoined for all time. Well, let these matters be arranged and described in whatever manner is pleasing to god ... (246c-d, Horan translation) — Fooloso4

Thanks for this but I don't understand it. When I imagine any god, it is not in corporeal form but spirit.
Again, we have this whatever is 'pleasing (to) god' - so pick a god out of the many, and what do we get? A different result each time.

Re: writing to best please (a) god? Why is it important to please them and not ourselves?
Are they our masters and we their slaves? Are we not to master ourselves?
Live by learning...learn by living.

There are always questions. Easy to skip over. From one exchange alone:

Soc: 274C Anyway I can tell what I have heard from those who have gone before us, but they are the ones who know the truth. Yet if we were to discover it ourselves, would any of the preoccupations of humanity still concern us?
Phae: It is ridiculous to ask that question but do tell me what you say you have heard.

Thoughts:
Is Socrates suggesting that if we discovered the truth for ourselves we would be less concerned with the 'preoccupations of humanity' - whatever they might be...
So, is it the gods we should depend on for truth - accepting theirs so that we can relax and get on with daily living - Religious belief sets us free?

Is Phaedrus saying that it is impossible that we would never be concerned with human concerns even if we discovered the truth, whatever that is...

Why would the ones who have gone before us know the truth. Oh, the truth of what happens after death? The meaning of life!? But weren't we talking about writing...and there would be different truths depending on the god in question?

Socrates didn't want to write anything down because it would not be the 'truth' - only a perspective at a given time. He didn't want to be tied to a particular truth or belief - but to be free to explore and discover more...about human concerns. Yes? A dislike of stasis? Or concern about a theory taking over from the practice? The practice of dialogue...in the market place?

Ah. OK. I only provided the link because I thought you wanted a Greek copy. My mistake.
Who knows - perhaps some other readers might find it useful.