jorndoe

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Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
↪BitconnectCarlos
, injustices against Palestinians have been posted throughout the thread, as have the threat against Israel (not going to re-repeat). Maybe I'll keep bringing up both, hoping that some folks can get over themselves, and the discourse not just be the usual repetitions. ;)
Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
↪BitconnectCarlos
, Israel is already facing risks and has been for a long time. Ongoing injustices aren't a solution.
Ukraine Crisis
↪neomac
, things the Putinistas don't want to hear, don't want anyone to hear, let alone discuss.
Had Ivashov been younger, there's a fair chance he'd "fall off a balcony and die".
Coronavirus
↪Punshhh

hah! That's still a thing in the UK? :)
My impression (which may be wrong) is that lots of things are covered well by taxes, like health, some education, public infra, the usual. Also (which may be wrong), my impression is that the UK has become more progressive since, at least in some ways. The Randians and evangelicals, for example, don't seem to have the same foothold as in the US. But I could have the wrong impression.
Then again, maybe Brexit was seeded by Thatcher (1988).
(Not sure what to make of all the public camera coverage.)
Coronavirus
↪javi2541997
, Spain, right? (Portugal?)

↪Punshhh
, aren't both the UK and Spain labeled "socialist democracies"?
Some funding came in via the EU.
Pfizer and BioNTech received a good lot from the US, the EU, Germany, Canada, ... (From memory, the Gates Foundation and others also tossed a fair bit in.)
In retrospect, the project was quite something. So was the noise, by the way. Yet, the cooperation/collaboration and (prior) mRNA/protein technology came together nicely.

A socialist world wouldn't try to weaponise viruses for profit — Benkei

Well, maybe not a socialist world, or better an ethical world.
Coronavirus

History’s Seven Deadliest Plagues
^{— Maya Prabhu, Jessica Gergen · Nov 15, 2021}

They should have used a color to indicate lethality (risk after infection), perhaps some indicator of how easily the malady spread.
Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
Two states does not bring peace — BitconnectCarlos

Maybe not, at least not "just like that".
Yet, given the existing hostilities and hostile neighbors, how much difference would two states make?
Would it not be worthwhile, at least? A sign of good will, for that matter?
The perpetual hostilities aren't helping.
The Israeli existential threat/fear is understandable enough, and so is the injustice to Palestinians.
In case the new state ("Palestine") was to run amok, then the world would see; Israel can defend itself against a demarcated state. Israel could stand up as a bastion of humanitarian values, perhaps even attract/influence Palestinians on that account.
I don't know, but wouldn't dismiss two states with a handwave.
Communism's Appeal
↪Tarskian
, for what it's worth ...

Why Russian milbloggers and propagandists are freaking out about Telegram's CEO arrest (— Chris York · Kyiv Independent · Aug 31, 2024)
Climate change denial
↪unenlightened
,
↪frank
, human population has roughly been growing exponentially since the neolithic (as far as we can tell), but might peak in our time.
Transitions by hunting/gathering ... tool use/making ... farming helped increase growth when the population was much lower.
It was with the industrialization (starting, let's just say, around 1800) that anthropogenic effects went global. (and we started infecting the Moon and Mars as well :wink:)
I don't think any of these transitions are bad in and of themselves, it's more that people generally don't care about sustainability or responsibilities.
Communism's Appeal
That is why it is necessary for the ruling mafia to arrest and imprison people like Telegram's owner Pavel Durov. He may have successfully escaped Gleichschaltung by the Russian Federation in the past, but Durov is currently being "synchronized" by the French authorities instead. Elon Musk and his Twitter platform (nowadays called "X") will sooner or later also find themselves more thoroughly "synchronized". — Tarskian

Prophecy? Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, Zhang Yiming, ... are still "at large" in the open.

The French judicial wanted Pavel Durov for ignoring authorities looking into some possible crimes on Telegram. Do you think those laws (are meant to) implement Gleichschaltung?
Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
That is cause for worry. — BitconnectCarlos

In this context, though predictable, it's (also) worrisome that Jews and Muslims have seen increased hostility in all kinds of places, more antisemitism and Islamophobia, following the conflict.

No longer about the regional threat to Israelis and injustice to Palestinians, and, as far as I can tell anyway, those are the main troubles to be figured out, preferably in the same round.

Is that what those ("elite") protesters want, though?
US Election 2024 (All general discussion)
the logical conclusion is that the democrats signaled their gangsters to stop protests and fireworks — Eros1982

I wouldn't say that's the logical conclusion. Riots do start and end, emerge and fade, for whatever reasons. For that matter, they need not have a (single) "puppet master". But maybe the rioters were predominantly Democrats, if that counts as "the democrats".

Democrats and Republicans have become very Machiavellian lately — Eros1982

Well, at least fringes of party members. Polarization has come with opportunism, noise, calculation, "mood swings", contrarianism, zeal, the usual. Game of Thrones and The Boys aren't to be emulated, and conspiracy theories should be taken with a grain of salt (make that two). :) Additionally, foreign interests are trying to nudge in whatever direction.
Brainstorming science
I don't think that the first law of thermodynamics is strictly falsifiable — Moliere

Right. Would the zero-energy universe violate conservation?
```
1 - 1 = 0
↑
 \ we're here
```
It's falsifiable, though, but maybe it won't ever be. In a way, the fluctuation theorem disproves strict entropy.

Evidence as proof

I take proof to be deductive, as found in logic and mathematics. I'm seeing two cases where evidence is proof:

• a particular existential claim ("here's a stampeding elephant")
• a counter-example to a general/universal claim ("here's a black swan")

(also check here)

These correspond to proving a ∃x∈S φx proposition, and disproving a ∀x∈S φx proposition, respectively.

(∃) "there are extraterrestrial aliens", "the Vedic Shiva is real", ..., showing is proof
(∀) "photons don't decay", "all life is DNA based", ..., showing a counter-example is disproof

Outside of such proofs, scientific methodologies aren't proofs, but (more or less) means by which to develop general claims inferred from particular existential claims. Naturally, this characterization is a bit rigid, and, as usual, there are all kinds of details.
Ukraine Crisis
Debris analysis shows Russia using North Korean missiles in Ukraine, US military says
^{— Phil Stewart, Michelle Nichols, Josh Smith, Diane Craft · Reuters · May 30, 2024 — usnews·com}
Kim Sent Russia Millions of Artillery Shells, South Korea Says
^{— Soo-Hyang Choi · Bloomberg · Jun 14, 2024 — time·com}

Kim must hate Ukraine, waging such "a proxy war" against them. Actually, he probably doesn't care, except he's not fond of those that have sanctioned North Korea. Well, it's understandable when the Ukrainians take issue with Kim, everyone knowing the intent (cf reports above), North Korean crap raining down on Ukraine. The actions of the Kremlin amount to a partial reversal of Ukraine's independence (+ sovereignty + integrity), established in 1991 a couple of years after the Berlin Wall came down, or at least an attempt at such reversal. Consequently, that's what Kim is helping. Independence includes freedom to seek EU membership, wrestle free from the dominating north+eastern neighbor, implement political reforms and develop a democracy, assert integrity, whatever.
US Election 2024 (All general discussion)
↪NOS4A2
, let's set up a trolley problem involving sperm + egg cells (incidentally akin to what Nightingale and Stalin "began" as) over ↖ there, cherry-sized 2-months-old fetuses over ↑ there, and toddlers over ↗ there.
I have a feeling the toddlers ↗ would make it every time, outside of rather special(ized) scenarios.
OK, what it there were, say, 10 times as many sperm + egg cells and fetuses as toddlers? 100? 10000 as many sperm + egg cells?
In terms of bio-facts, only the toddlers ↗ are conscious persons — children.
I suppose we could craft the details of a scenario (or more) and run a poll if you like.
US Election 2024 (All general discussion)
↪unenlightened
:up:

should one want to kill her child — NOS4A2

Isn't this a wee bit hyperbolic? Whatever you want to call it, "one" = "her", "one" isn't someone/something else, yes? Are you thinking of a slippery slope? Either way, abortion ≠ killing a child here.

A couple of months in, a fetus is a lump of cells about the size of a cherry, something like that. Not a person. My neighbor's kid is. It's more like a cyst. No more a person or conscious than pre-conception sperm and egg cell. ← bio-facts

I'll readily admit to having an emotional attachment to life. It's not like abortion is a positive thing or to be encouraged (anti-natalists not invited at the moment :grin:), it's a rough enough decision.
Ukraine Crisis
↪frank
, whether strategic or something else, I suppose anyone can speculate ...
▸ Aug 13, 2024, ▸ Aug 16, 2024 (← embedded links for context or whatever)
Some say Ukraine → NATO plans and that's that, some say ongoing provocations kept alive by a military-industrial complex and covert conspirators to which the Kremlin is simply responding, ... (← such like tend to render the invaders mechanistic / assign blame outside / run with whatever comes out of the Kremlin)
Some add cultural tendencies (including historical) on the invader's part, ...
Anyway, I can't answer on
↪ssu
's behalf.
Ukraine Crisis
How to circumvent sanctions and do a bit of spying:

Marinchefen: Vi misstänker att ryska skuggflottan spionerar (en)
^{— SVT · Apr 22, 2024}
Baiba Braže in Finland: Russia’s “shadow fleet” and other threats to the Baltic Sea states will be limited
^{— Ārlietu ministrija (Government of Latvia) · Jun 14, 2024}
How to rein in Russia’s shadow fleet
^{— Elisabeth Braw · POLITICO · Aug 26, 2024}

Nothing new I guess. Maybe oil market sensitivities/insecurities and international legalities can account for the lack of response, in part at least. Though, avoiding confrontation encourages offenders.
Donald Hoffman
I think that's an oxymoron, no? — bert1

Could be. The phenomena-noumena thing is the context or background presumption here, though.

↪Manuel

Let me just add, I don't think becoming das-ding makes much sense here. Anything other than you is not you. And whatever other than you may not perceive at all, or at least not like you — which would be unwarranted anthropomorphization, incidentally perhaps converging on panpsychism/animism. In other words, becoming das-ding is a dead end; some other requirement will have to be employed (if any).

We may interact similarly with a Moon rock, whereas (what we identify as) hydrochloric acid interacts differently with the Moon rock. In principle, you could interact with something in whatever ways (typically by proxy), and we may find new ways of interacting with things, or discover interaction previously unknown to us. Do we have an alternative to interaction, by which to attain knowledge of something otherwise unknown (or scantily known)? I suppose the hyper-skeptical parsimonist might reduce everything to interaction. (← I have already ditched solipsism and the like here)
Donald Hoffman
My final twist here is that, astronomy, geology, still do not tell us about noumena. — Manuel

I don't think this can be a deductive conclusion.

Running with the phenomena-noumena thing, you can know how something interacts with you at least, yes?

Say, you may interact with an apple-an-sich, which might at least tell you something about the apple, namely about your interaction therewith. Or, you may interact with a neighbor-an-sich, which might tell you something about the neighbor, namely how the neighbor interacts at least.

(As far as I can tell, the "might" part would have to be disproven for the quote to be deductive, but maybe I'm wrong; actually I might have misunderstood entirely. :smile:)

If we expect apple-omniscience/certainty, then we're over-demanding.
In terms of (phenomena-noumena) epistemics, what would be required (perhaps expected) to know a ding-an-sich (without interaction)? Becoming das-ding...?
Ukraine Crisis
↪ssu
:up:
Donald Hoffman
A question I have is, what is 'truth' as distinct from 'perceived reality'? — Wayfarer

I'm sort of thinking that regardless of what you perceive, you can't experience my self-awareness, for example.
You'll find it a wee bit easier to perceive the ground you walk on (I assume).
Nonetheless, I hope you think I'm just another self/aware homo sapiens and forum denizen, though. :)
The statement "jorndoe is self/aware" is true, so truth and perceived reality aren't the same at least.
Epistemic endeavors have truth in mind, if you will, whatever it all may be.
Ukraine Crisis
As long as we have men like you, we are absolutely, absolutely invincible. It is one thing to shoot at a shooting range here, and another thing to put your life and health at risk. But you have an inner need to defend the Fatherland and the courage to make such a decision. — Putin · Al Jazeera · Aug 21, 2024

Well, they're still warring (with help from North Korea, China, Iran), 2½ years after the invasion, 10 years after grabbing Crimea.
Ukraine Crisis
↪neomac
, thanks :up:
Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
↪ssu
, yeah, with two world wars just a good couple of decades apart, resulting in, say, 100 million fatalities + impressive destruction, it's no wonder that things had to change. Emperors, dictators and the like were central figures, North America wasn't happy, ...

^{(Imperial Japan started its own campaign shortly before the 2nd world war as far as most historians are concerned, don't know if anyone uses that as a marker for the start of the war instead.)}
Ukraine Crisis
↪ssu
:up: Being written in Russian, maybe the article was targeted for Russians. Looked around, but couldn't find the original article, do you have a link handy?
Ukraine Crisis
Not all that surprising I suppose, however concerning it may seem:

NATO’s military presence in the east of the Alliance
^{— NATO · Jul 8, 2024}
Czołgi i wozy bojowe na drogach w Wielkopolsce. Ważny komunikat armii (Polish)
Tanks and combat vehicles on the roads in Wielkopolska. Important message from the army
^{— Krzysztof Grządzielski, Milosz Balcerzak · Radio ZET · Jul 29, 2024}
US Tanks, Combat Vehicles Spotted Heading for NATO's Eastern Flank: Report
^{— Brendan Cole · Newsweek · Jul 30, 2024}
Финляндия разместит до 5000 военных НАТО у границы с Россией (Russian)
Finland to deploy up to 5,000 NATO troops near Russian border
^{— Lisa Lambrecht · Deutsche Welle · Aug 22, 2024}

Earlier, Medvedev went on another tirade, making other Kremlinians seem dull:

Medvedev urges to turn life in West into 'permanent nightmare' in response to sanctions
^{— TASS · Jun 13, 2024}
A quote from Tarskian
_{(I'm using "they" to give out less personal information)}

He was most likely complaining about "persecution" by his own family who do not accept his sexual orientation. — Tarskian

Well, no, that's exactly not the case here.
Missing family + friends isn't a perk.
Much like neighboring Brunei, and Saudi Arabia by the way, Malaysia is officially Sunnist.
And so Malaysia lost another smart, kind person for (religion-bound state-sanctioned) humanitarian reasons.

Such is the reality on the ground. — above
A quote from Tarskian
↪Tarskian
, I happen to know a Malay homosexual who more or less fled Malaysia.
You wouldn't know they're homosexual without knowing them personally.
(Not that it matters, but I'm heterosexual and married.)
Good thing they're quite intelligent and rational, and managed to make a living in a safer country.
Neighboring Brunei isn't exactly better.
Such is the reality on the ground.
Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
As it stands, the Jewish versus Muslim thing is part of the problem, in particular when both go craz...radical.
Jews continue to be (existentially) threatened, Muslims continue to be treated radically unjustly.
Jews aren't going to eradicate opposing radicals, Muslims aren't going to turn the region into an Islamic theocracy or whatever (and, outside of self-fulfilling prophecy, Christians won't have their second coming).
Both lay religio-historical claims, not really something where you'd expect much compromise.
Supposing that Israel has nuclear weapons, I wouldn't want to be in the region if Israel stands to be run over.
This part of the problem isn't that different from a (deadlocked) religious war, and fictional characters like Yahweh and Allah aren't going to settle anything, though one might wish that both parties would believe so (and leave it at that), or, better yet, ditch their (fundamentalist) superstitions.
Isn't simply telling one group to "Fuck off (and die)" more radicalism?
Anyway, I'm guessing that a solution would require both plausible security guarantees and ongoing justice.
Ukraine Crisis
my primary issue is with Western policy (as I'm a Westerner and I mostly affect and am responsible for Western policy) — boethius
obviously "Ukrainian sovereignty" is not the concern of the West — boethius

So, being a Westerner an'all, sovereignty is not a concern?
Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
↪Benkei
, I wasn't just thinking of Palestinians, I mean, wild west conditions, really?
Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
What's going on here?

One Palestinian killed as Israeli settlers attack West Bank village
^{— Bethan McKernan · Guardian · Aug 16, 2024}
Dozens of Israeli settlers attack West Bank village, burn cars and kill a Palestinian in violence condemned by US as mediators hold new round of talks to end war in Gaza
^{— David Averre · Daily Mail (+ AP) · Aug 16, 2024}

Whatever those settlers (or whatever they are) think they're doing, around here they'd be prosecuted for serious crimes. If such crap continued, countermeasures would be organized.
Ukraine Crisis
In an interview, Vera Grantseva briefly opines (sort of related to that "alternate world" thing):

ENTRETIEN. Guerre en Ukraine : "Humilié, Poutine devient l’otage de ses propres mensonges" (en)
^{— La Dépêche · Aug 15, 2024}
Ukraine Crisis
Nord Stream blowback
^{— Stuart Lau, Zoya Sheftalovich · POLITICO · Aug 15, 2024}
Ukrainian military officers came up with idea of blowing up Nord Stream pipeline 'during night of heavy boozing', ignored Zelensky's pleas not to go ahead, and set off blast that 'qualifies as attack on NATO', bombshell report claims
^{— David Averre · Daily Mail · Aug 15, 2024}
Ukraine Crisis
Well, it is a genuine concern:

In the near future Russia will take possession of everything the US military and NATO shipped to Ukraine. (— Kim Dotcom · Aug 14, 2024)

I suppose, had Ukrainian support been more decisive, then the concern might not have been much of a factor later. Easy to say in retrospect. And sort of strategically prepared for by the Kremlin.

↪Tzeentch
:up:

Wait, ↪Tzeentch, didn't the thread already establish that "Everyone bad"? — Dec 28, 2022

Not geopolitics for you? (there's a question there)
[...]
And Hiroshima + Nagasaki ☢ 1945...not geopolitics for you? — Aug 15, 2024
Ukraine Crisis
Ukraine is a sovereign country (and Crimea part of Ukraine), here here here 2024jul9 2024aug9 ...

That's geopolitics for you. This isn't your average lefty echo chamber where terms like 'victim blaming' are used non-facetiously. — Tzeentch

Japan had Hiroshima and Nagasaki ☢ coming?

There's an obvious distinction between a country and its government, and its civilian population. Countries and governments are not victims, since they are seldom innocent. Kiev made a calculated gamble and it didn't work out. It should not play the victim card but take responsibility for its failed foreign policy. — Tzeentch

Japan during WW2 was a fascist menace. Of course they had it coming. That doesn't mean the nuclear bombing was justified, or that civilians weren't innocent/victims. The Japanese state/government clearly was not.

Not sure what point you believe you're making here. — Tzeentch

Not geopolitics for you? (there's a question there)

Suspect. When it's the Kremlin, it's reduced to geopolitics, heck they're defending themselves (i.e. excused), and hardly otherwise mentioned ("invisible"), despite their bombing, shamming, etc. When the Ukrainians + supporters are fighting to take back parts of Ukraine, then it's another matter, be it evil US deep state theories, Kyiv to blame, ... And Hiroshima + Nagasaki ☢ 1945...not geopolitics for you?

in a way, since Ukraine is a sovereign country, the Kremlin's attitudes themselves were already on a collision course from early on — Aug 13, 2024

It's understandable what the Kremlin wants, and, understandably, it's not theirs to have. A middle ground deal — whatever is compatible with international law — seems hard to come by, from early on at that, and now animosity has (understandably) grown.

In acting so brazenly, Putin is in fact openly trying to upset the international order, replacing it not with some progressive vision of equality of nations, but with a return to a 19th century ideology where might – particularly his might – is right. — David Cameron · ‘High time for peace’, UN chief says, as Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine enters third year · The UN · Feb 23, 2024

Regress.

↪Benkei
, at least there are some concrete suspects, though they're long gone.
US Election 2024 (All general discussion)
communism — Benkei

I'm skeptical. Not so much that there are neat ideas to be found, but of the implementation. Lenin, Mao and others might have thought they had it, but that turned out differently. How would it go? And in a larger, diverse environment?

(ok, don't want to side-track the thread, should perhaps be moved elsewhere)
Brainstorming science
justified true belief can be much wider than science — Moliere

Sure, make it ...

~~Doesn't~~ Can't science more or less take ~~the~~ a role of "justified" in knowledge as justified true belief? — Aug 13, 2024

an example — Moliere

I think this might be a sort of standard example from physics:

Aristotle looks around, comes up with a theory of motion → Galileo looks around some more, tests, comes up with better theories → Newton thinks things over, observes, advances/generalizes theories (used to this day) → Einstein, having access to more, improves theories, more complex, used by GPS

The models adapt to accumulating evidence/observations if you will. Might be worth noting that the methodologies became more evidence/observation-driven/dependent, say, in the 1600s. Model-falsifiability is a must these days.
Well, science can redo conventional wisdom, make something counter-intuitive acceptable, and help put rovers and stuff on Mars. :)
With something like sociology or psychology (about ourselves), things become more complicated, and we may have to contend with less accurate/stable theories.
Ukraine Crisis
↪Tzeentch
, something to give a thought then? ^{(e.g. 2024jul9, 2024aug9, here, here, here)}

Nord-Stream-Sabotage: Ermittler suchen nach mutmaßlichem ukrainischen Täter
Nord Stream sabotage: Investigators search for suspected Ukrainian perpetrator
^{— Kurier · Aug 14, 2024}

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