The answer doesn't depend on those questions. — Andrew M
On conventional use, there was no language prior to the emergence of life. — Andrew M
Any theory that describes the universe is going to depend on human language. There's no implication that the universe itself would depend on human language. — Andrew M
Some important-seeming questions of the 'globalising' variety will always arise. The trick is to be prepared to recognise when one's efforts have developed the symptoms described in the OP, and to then have the humility (or strategic sense) to retreat to more solid ground. — bongo fury
Neurath's boat works fine as a metaphor for how we investigate the world from within it, — Andrew M
But to be honest, I don't know if ''more conscious'' even makes sense. — Eugen
The notion of consciousness is explained by opposing it to unconsciousness. — Banno
Wasn't the world prior to the emergence of life a world without language? — Andrew M
There won't be any fact of the matter of implicit conventions, of course, but one that seems to me to be just as widely asserted is that language presupposes a world already formed/carved/sorted in the terms of the language. (Don't blame me.)
— bongo fury
Not "in the terms of the language". For example, scientific language changed as Newtonian mechanics was superseded by relativity and quantum mechanics, and will presumably continue to change in the future. But the world itself didn't change on account of humans using different language to talk about it. — Andrew M
Then it seems your position precludes any rational basis for agreement. That is, people can agree on one fiction or another (per their preference), but not on how the world is independent of their agreement. — Andrew M
That is, that language presupposes a world for language to be about. — Andrew M
(the talk just got metaphysical but through no fault of nominalism) — bongo fury
For example, would you agree that two brontosaurus dinosaurs were similar in the sense of both having four legs before the emergence of human beings and human language? — Andrew M
So I'm unclear on how you would make sense of that project. It seems to require rejecting the convention I stated above, — Andrew M
, but for what purpose? — Andrew M
foundations of math, psychology of consciousness, theory of reference, theory of learning, logic of induction, semiotics etc? [...] plenty of philosophy [...] cheerfully non-metaphysical — bongo fury
I assume there is no empirical fact about it, in the sense of an observable difference. However there may be logical (or absurdity) arguments against one or the other of those choices. For example, the Third Man argument which is an infinite regress argument against Plato's Theory of Forms. — Andrew M
This feeds a suspicion that metaphysics is not being easily given up by some of its supposed critics, who need to disparage nominalism because they would rather not be shown a way out. — bongo fury
Mine was a reference to the original quote, by Pierre Jean Georges Cabanis, a French materialist philosopher of the Enlighenment. It was his expression 'Le cerveau sécrète la pensée comme le foie sécrète la bile.' — Wayfarer
That quote of Weiner's is commenting on the same point. — Wayfarer
I would enlarge on Weiner's point — Wayfarer
the materialist canard, 'the brain secretes thought like the liver secretes bile'. — Wayfarer
The mechanical brain does not secrete thought "as the liver does bile," as the earlier materialists claimed, nor does it put it out in the form of energy, as the muscle puts out its activity. Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism which does not admit this can survive at the present day.
— Norbert Wiener: Computing Machines and the Nervous System. p. 132. — Wayfarer
how non-conscious stuff can produce consciousness — RogueAI
Now it seems to me that if two things are [not similarnon-similar in a sense of similarity] independent of language, then applying the same term to them doesn't make them similar. — Andrew M
Now it seems to me that if two things are [notnever] similar independent of language, then applying the same term to them doesn't make them similar. — Andrew M
On the other hand, if two things are similarindependent of language, that doesn't imply the existence of a third entity for a language term to denote. — Andrew M
The issue in both cases is that similarity doesn't imply a name at all, whether in a Platonic or Nominal sense. — Andrew M
or, do you have examples of such a mirror symmetry?
— bongo fury
Yes. The Platonist embellishes similarities as (capital-N, entity) Names, the Nominalist reduces similarities to (small-n, paper draft [*]) names. Neither side challenges that reclassification nor sheds any light on similarity. — Andrew M
You can call it nominalist, but are you telling us any more than how you're classifying it? ;-) — Andrew M
That's fine but it doesn't tell us anything about the ontology of the world, only about his preference. — Andrew M
What we do know is that in the course of our investigations of the world, we can identify similarities and differences in things. — Andrew M
That's the natural home that those terms arise in and by which we then classify things (according to our various purposes). — Andrew M
So classification itself depends on a prior notion of similarity and difference. — Andrew M
Lazerowitz's analysis is interesting and informative because he's investigating and forming a hypothesis about what philosophers are doing, — Andrew M
, not discussing how to classify similarity (per the Problem of Universals). — Andrew M
More broadly, an investigation and analysis of how language is used in various contexts is also interesting and informative. But, as Wittgenstein notes (quote below), that is not Nominalism. — Andrew M
let's assume we are talking about physical particulars and also about the talking of organisms such as ourselves, about those particulars, and let's be especially careful not to get confused when the two targets of our talk overlap, which they probably often must. — bongo fury
Per "material", yes, which is one side of a Platonic dualist framing that reiterates the reductionism implicit in Nominalism. — Andrew M
Similarity, for Nominalists, reduces to just names. Which precludes even the possibility of investigation. — Andrew M
Nominalists make the mistake of interpreting all words as names, and so of not really describing their use, but only, so to speak, giving a paper draft on such a description. — L. Wittgenstein, PI §383
We are not analyzing a phenomenon (e.g. thought) but a concept (e.g. that of thinking), and therefore the use of a word. — L. Wittgenstein, PI §383
A better approach to ridding ourselves of relativism is found in dismissing the notion of incommensurate descriptions. Truth is not bound to particular conceptual schemes, but rather is what allows us to compare them one to the other.
The grain of truth in the OP is that it is truth that allows us to determine which descriptions are wrong. — Banno
The broader point is that it is easy to be misled by language and there are plenty of examples of this in the history of philosophy. — Andrew M
The Nominalist, in their attempt to exorcise the Platonist spirits, can end up being a mirror-image or dual of the Platonist because of a deeper framing of the problem that neither side has recognized. — Andrew M
The Nominalist applies their razor to the immaterial side of that duality (because ghosts, extravagence, etc.), but finds they are left with an impoverished material world that provides no resources for solving the problem. — Andrew M
foundations of math, psychology of consciousness, theory of reference, theory of learning, logic of induction, semiotics etc — bongo fury
Understood metaphysically, — Andrew M
... that anything is white or a triangle if it has the right sort of resemblance to our chosen particular. — Bertrand Russell: The Problems of Philosophy (1912)
So I brought up a discussion of the ontology of universals, from Russell's Problems of Philosophy, and other sources on the ontology of math, referencing a couple of articles from SEP and IEP. I note very little reaction to or comment on those issues, which are actually the kinds of things that academic metaphysics discusses. — Wayfarer
But a difficulty emerges as soon as we ask ourselves how we know that a thing is white or a triangle. — Bertrand Russell: The Problems of Philosophy (1912)
Is it, do electrons exist? Okay, sure. Is it, do electrons have similar properties? Okay, sure.
What else is there to say? — Snakes Alive
Are you talking about the general ability to use nouns? — Snakes Alive
Do things share properties and if so, what does that entail? — Marchesk
If we wish to avoid the universals whiteness and triangularity, we shall choose some particular patch of white or some particular triangle, and say that anything is white or a triangle if it has the right sort of resemblance to our chosen particular. But then the resemblance required will have to be a universal. — Bertrand Russell: The Problems of Philosophy (1912)
Do you mean that human understanding is reducible to computer logic — TheMadFool
but that we haven't the technology to make it work? If yes then that means you agree with me in principle that human understanding isn'tsomething special, something that can't be handled by logic gates inside computers. — TheMadFool
Searle's argument doesn't stand up to careful scrutiny for the simple reason that semantics are simply acts of linking words to their referents. Just consider the sentence, "dogs eat meat". The semantic part of this sentence consists of matching the words "dog" with a particular animal, "eat" with an act, and "meat" with flesh, i.e. to their referents and that's it, nothing more, nothing less. Understanding is simply a match-the-following exercise, something a computer can easily accomplish. — TheMadFool
That's to say there is no meaning except in the sense of a consensus. — TheMadFool
What makes you think computers can't do that? — TheMadFool
How do we do it, link the word "water" to the water itself, in your opinion? — TheMadFool
Yep. So what is it that a computer so easily (according to you) links to the word "water"? The referent you just described, or merely the description?
— bongo fury
The description consists of referents. — TheMadFool
What's the problem with referents? — TheMadFool
The clear liquid that flows in rivers and the oceans that at times becomes solid and cold, and at other times is invisible vapor is the referent of the word "water". — TheMadFool
Well, I don't know why people make such a big deal of understanding — TheMadFool
referents — TheMadFool
I hope you reply soon to this query. — TheMadFool
They don't have to be but they can be, no? — TheMadFool
I expect that you, like "they" in the story, haven't even considered that "referents" might have to be actual things out in the world?
— bongo fury
Yes, I did consider that. — TheMadFool
Referents can be almost anything, from physical objects to abstract concepts. — TheMadFool
Searle's argument doesn't stand up to careful scrutiny for the simple reason that semantics are simply acts of linking words to their referents. Just consider the sentence, "dogs eat meat". The semantic part of this sentence consists of matching the words "dog" with a particular animal, "eat" with an act, and "meat" with flesh, i.e. to their referents and that's it, nothing more, nothing less. Understanding is simply a match-the-following exercise, something a computer can easily accomplish. — TheMadFool
I wish I could locate the youtube footage of Searle's wry account of early replies to his vivid demonstration (the chinese room) that so-called "cognitive scripts" mistook syntax for semantics. Something like, "so they said, ok we'll program the semantics into it too, but of course what they came back with was just more syntax". — bongo fury
Do you deny the existence of universal concepts in our language? — Marchesk
I really have no idea how to answer that question. — Snakes Alive
Is the question, for example, how we can use the same word for multiple things? How it is that 'apple' can refer to multiple fruits, for example? — Snakes Alive
It's an interesting line of investigation for sure, — Isaac
particularly the actions AI would have to demonstrate before we're prepared to label them 'rational'. — Isaac
But that's a very different topic — Isaac
and I don't want to derail the thread talking about it. — Isaac
What is also interesting about this, and more related to the thread, — Isaac
, is the way in which the criteria for the term 'rational' are being created post hoc to reflect the way we'd like things to be. — Isaac
We've all been using the word 'rational' (or it's equivalent) for 2000 years. What on earth is a discussion about what it means doing 2000 years later! — Isaac
This claim is either meaningless or amenable to empirical evidence. Is our ability to reason and navigate grounded in our ability to discern meaning? If it isn't, what would be different about the world, how would we notice? — Isaac
magical thinking [...] "animals don't think rationally like us because.... I really, really don't want them to" — Isaac
Is the question, for example, how we can use the same word for multiple things? How it is that 'apple' can refer to multiple fruits, for example?
— Snakes Alive
That’s close! — Wayfarer
foundations of math, psychology of consciousness, theory of reference, theory of learning, logic of induction, semiotics etc — bongo fury
I don't see that there is anything in eternalism per se that precludes motion, unless you define it as such. — ChatteringMonkey
... objects are arranged in space in an orderly way. Their arrangement can be described without referring to "passage of space" or some equivalent of motion. — Echarmion
I didn't want to allude some sort of is-ought-fallacy, where racism or xenophobia are (more) acceptable because they are in some way "natural". — Echarmion
I just wanted to point out, partially from personal experience, that not being prejudiced is really hard, — Echarmion
and that there are mental mechanisms (wherever they come from) that introduce and reinforce prejudice, of which racism is a subtype. — Echarmion
Just refusing to say the word "black" won't keep your brain from noticing that "these guys over there look different", and if you don't pay attention, your brain may turn "different" into "dangerous". — Echarmion
Racism is part of the human condition. — Echarmion
