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Keith Frankish on the Hard Problem and the Illusion of QualiaSo ... anyone else, do you have a clear understanding of his distinction between qualia and experiences? — Daemon
Speaking for myself, no:
to the delight and justified exasperation of dualists everywhere. — bongo fury
Same with,
just sensations — Banno
And
the brain constructing images. — Mijin
Every time a neuroscientist says "neural representation" without clarifying it as readiness to play a social game of agreeing actual representations, a dualist gets more confused.
My inner world is soggy meat, and I live in the outer world which I call 'the world'. — unenlightened
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Attempting to acquire absolute pitchHaha, too right :up:
Day 6, 11.05: Most of a semitone sharp.
14.50: Ouch, semitone down. Quick one, too confident.
17.20: Just noticeably sharp.
18.30: More like it. -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?And the observation of brain shivers is the same thing - a poetical description of another's thoughts. — Harry Hindu
Not necessarily.
"Shivering" is a term that only an entity with visual experiences could use in the appropriate way. — Harry Hindu
Surely, anyone with sufficient flair for metaphor who had experienced shivering, e.g. with cold, could apply the term appropriately to sound events just as well as to illumination events? -
Attempting to acquire absolute pitch
:smile: Test and report :up:
Day 5, 08.30: Just noticeably flat.
12.50: Dang, at least a semitone sharp. Sad to relate, I was allowing myself to think that the images I was starting were interestingly non-specific pending a seconds-later specification of pitch. That reminds me, a potential flaw in the whole method is that all of the too-high and too-low feelings are illusory, and all the just-right trials are resulting purely from some overall matching of image to reality, potentially insensitive to the transposition in pitch.
14.55: Quick one... bad idea, semitone down.
16.20: Fairly quick. Case of, is this good enough? Or, this, up a semitone? Half way between... dead on.
20.30: Same.
20.40: Attempted similar after random intermediate YouTube tracks... down 2 semitones :yikes: -
Keith Frankish on the Hard Problem and the Illusion of QualiaMusic is classes of sound events.
Colour is classes of illumination events.
Pain is classes of trauma events.
I thank you. -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?(not saying they do now...) — Olivier5
Heaven forbid. -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?Thoughts are "poetry" you say? — Olivier5
No, "the subjective experience of thinking" is a poetical description of the thoughts, I say. You won't be able to clarify it in concrete terms, saying "here's some", and "here's some more", "that thing isn't some" etc. -
Attempting to acquire absolute pitchDay 4, 16.05: Phew! Lot of struggling, not sure I wasn't blind-guessing the intimations of up or down. But made several relatively fine adjustments, and was dead on.
21.40: Similar session. Restarting the image less than a semitone higher or lower is harder than moving it up or down by all of the step. For reasons that relative and absolute pitchers can probably agree. Reasons of the target being a large pattern of related tones rather than a single tone. Glad the effort paid off both times today. Mustn't assume... -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?"Neuronal activity" is perfectly fine and clear, if you are talking about objectively observable neuronal activity — Olivier5
Including that crowning achievement of animal life, thinking in symbols: neuro-muscular activity which is preparing to select among symbols to identify the
shivering colors and shapes and sounds, etc — Harry Hindu
"Thoughts" is a perfectly fine word too, about the subjective experience of thinking... — Olivier5
Sure - pending literal clarification of the poetry. If you are going to then apply logic to it, anyway. Poetry has different (no less exacting) standards. -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?derogatively — Olivier5
In my defence, I settled on "shiver" in preference to "spasm". For the prosecution, I should have said "neural activity". To switch sides again, I wanted a sortal, and neural "events" or "episodes" sounded medical.
I can only apologise if my remarks etc. -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?a 'mental image' from memory consists of almost exactly the same neural activity as the image in front of you right now. — Isaac
Sure, if you mean, the neural activity we might figuratively call "mental imaging from memory" is of largely the same character as the neural activity we might figuratively call "mental imaging from visual attention".
One possible next question, for lovers of clarification, is how this literally involves images, if at all.
Is this about, how can we be sure of things? I'm not usually into all that, sorry. My bad, if you can explain it.
Is there a clear difference between literal brain shivers and figurative ones, and if yes, what could it be? — Olivier5
Not sure what you mean. If it helps, I think there's a clear difference between brain shivers (ok, neural activity) literally and only figuratively consisting of pictures or representations. -
Attempting to acquire absolute pitchDay 3, 08.50: Two semitones too high :yikes:
11.05: Mind alighting onto image, let's test straightaway for the hell of it. Most of a semitone too high.
11.30: Insufficient intermediate noise, but after some proper concentration... i.e. "playing" an image at different points in a zone, trying to move based on vague intimations of possible too-high-ness or too-low-ness, got a possible intimation of just-right-ness, testing positive. :up:
11.55: Now, testing an image lingering on... feels a bit low if anything... Ok, half a semitone down, hmm. Drift, maybe? Will Google later on in the process, but any knowledge welcome.
18.37: ouch, a tone up. Thought I felt the just-right-ness. So much for that.
21.55: Just noticeably sharp. Played a few candidate locations in the zone, without much preference emerging. Tried a "reality kick", if I can put it like that. Recalling, that is, and trying to anticipate and produce, that feeling of "reveal" which mocks all different predictions. And allowing that anticipation to determine the pitch of the next play of the image. Letting the image start where it (hopefully is beginning to know where it) wants. Repeatedly restarting the image is a feature of the method (as it stands currently) and probably benefits from the target music starting with the target pitch and on a main beat. That could be why I chose the clip, not at all sure. -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?Assuming that you trust your speculation shivers and your logic shivers, note that, in order to offer any structure shiver to your memory shivers, a narrative shiver ought to be recorded, even if shiveringly so. — Olivier5
The organism's ability to repeat and modify behaviours is a kind of a trace of the past. But explaining that doesn't seem to require us to infer the storing of traces or representations. — bongo fury
Not literally, anyway. It might, of course, be convenient and useful to make the inference in a figurative manner of speaking. -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?But isn't our brain in our heads? — Harry Hindu
It should be.
Your brain shivers are meaningless. — Harry Hindu
If you mean they aren't representations, then yes, that's my point.
Where are the scribbles you are reading now - in your head, in your brain, on the screen? — Harry Hindu
On the screen.
Where is the scribbles' meaning - in your head, in your brain or on the screen? — Harry Hindu
In the game in which we agree to pretend that the scribbles point at or represent things. -
Attempting to acquire absolute pitchDay 2, Saturday 21st
9.40: slightly flat. Half or quarter of a semitone. Variability of this order is probably good enough to count as absolute pitch if translated into the ability to correctly identify notes played.
(Assuming, that is, that tunings of pianos etc. are concentrated, e.g. as a normal curve, around a stable point, which is the case (A4 = 440Hz), but increasingly compromised by the fashion for authentic performance, with the troublesome consequence mentioned by @SophistiCat.)
Arriving here from the position of being frequently unsurprised to mistake pitches as much as an octave apart, this degree of precision - falling short as it does of being likely to have an opinion on whether a tuned piano is sharp or flat of some standard - would impress me as a step change from relative to absolute. The analogue, say, of being able to recognise red, though not reliably identify its shades.
Whatever degree of precision should indeed transpire in this report over the coming days, it'll be another matter to translate it into an ability to identify notes played, especially in a musical context, where I would expect the usual relative pitch skills to interfere too much. But we shall see.
11.05: Dang, I just spoilt the opportunity for another trial by checking the above link, upon which it played. Still, this raises the question for how long I will feel the absolute sense of the G, and whether the sense if still present is illusory. While writing these words I have lost the (feeling that I have maintained the) sense and then recovered it. So it's moot which of the two questions this will address, but, here goes: yes, dead on, but 10 minutes after accidental exposure to the target.
13.08: Aware of a clear image of the music lingering mentally from earlier, whilst chasing trains and not thinking to start other images. (If the discussion turns philosophical, I will have to put some of those words in quotes!)
(I ought to have clarified by now that the youtube clip I use for feedback is also the "line dance" that I imagine performing (hearing), and then assess for feelings of correctness (of absolute pitch)).
Often, such an immediately present image has tempted me to feel correctness but proved unreliable (e.g. even recently out by a tone or more). However, even though a "reveal" always terminates an opportunity to test a concentration effort, one wants to know if practice has begun to make the less effortful images more reliable. The evidence for that is uncompelling in a case like this one, where the image may be intact from earlier on. Anyway, I succumbed to temptation and the result was dead on.
15.00: Back of the mind full of different music for a while, then called my attention as it landed on the target music in (probably as a result of the music currently playing) what seemed like a too-high key. This isn't a feeling I can remember having (or hardly ever) before a week ago. Still, it is the feeling I've been trying to find and train. This time I found the too-high feeling quite pronounced, but starting the image a third below was, I wouldn't say definitely too low, but kind of disorienting, and since I got the same (lack of) feeling at only a tone below, I went for a semitone below, "played" it, wasn't sure, but went for that, and it was dead on, or very close.
I'm not sure the reason but, this morning, I found myself daring myself to "play" extended "images" of the Ravel in wrong keys, but declined, for fear of trashing the ability gained thus far. That could be a later experiment, no doubt.
22.12: Pleased to say that after an initial judgement (on an initial image) that I was too high, and then the same vague dissatisfaction as earlier upon going down one semitone, I managed to imagine something in between the two, and it came out true :)
Now my worry is that this will read like the potentially alienating account of an absolute pitcher. If that's what I've nearly become, then I will be sorry for not getting started earlier with the careful reporting. On the other hand, there is more I can explain about the "concentration" process, albeit perhaps in retrospect. Also, I seem to remember that absolute pitch that depends on a particular instrument or recorded sound is recognised as a relatively poor relation that might well stay poor. So there's grounds for pessimism, if needed ;)
00.35: Roughly a semitone too high. -
Attempting to acquire absolute pitchI imagine I am standing in a circular dancehall, drapes around the walls obscuring the whereabouts of doors and other markers; I then direct people (my imaginary friends) to line up with me and dance, facing a particular way; then I judge my degree of satisfaction that I am facing North, maybe adjust my orientation accordingly, dance a little more, etc.... then I consult a pocket compass to evaluate my various adjustments. Progress uncertain... shall update here. Hope others will too. — bongo fury
I'm pretty sure I can report progress, albeit entirely devoid of scientific significance. I really ought to have done some prior testing to see where we were starting from. I always tended to assume the distribution of my errors was flat over at least an octave: that I was as lacking in absolute pitch sensitivity as possible. But also I never regarded the skill as musically important so never bothered checking how nearly this was actually the case.
Still, if I can acquire the skill reliably, say to the nearest quarter-tone, then my unreliable memoir of the process might conceivably be worthwhile. Now that I'm hitting in that window as often as not, but with enough fuss and bother (going into a bit of a trance - certainly no hope without silence) that an observer might well judge it hopeless, I'll begin reporting on all of the (usually) handful of trials each day. Data!
But please feel free to interject with any thoughts at all...
Day one, Friday 20th Nov: 23.20 (approx 5 weeks in)
Last of maybe 5 trials today. I think a couple of the others were out by at least a semitone. A couple of hours since the previous one. Plenty of "noise" (earworms etc.) in my head. However, the imaginative process is becoming easier, in ways that I'll try to describe, though probably gradually. It still takes at least half a minute of concentrating, often several. The actual "pocket compass" I'm using is youtube on my phone, specifically G4 as announced in the first chord here: https://youtu.be/PuFwt66Vr6U.
On this occasion, dead on. :smile: However, on visiting again after 10 mins of texting here, to get the link address, I was down a semitone :yikes: Because concentrating less, maybe. On the mistaken assumption or hope that less concentration would be needed after only 10 mins. Will try to describe the concentration, when time allows. -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?Ok, anthropomorphic assumptions, apparently. Thanks for the link. With it's shockingly anthropomorphic illustration! I shall study.
... Haha, point taken. Links to fascinating studies answering this too:
Start with an ape? In what situation might it have the brain shivers that you would describe as having a mental image and I would describe as readying to select among pictures? — bongo fury
Still, the mental images (whatever we call them or construe them as) aren't traces, or recordings. -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?OK - but the basic idea that episodic memory is reconstructed rather than recalled seems uncontroversial. — Banno
Yes, until one dares to drop the re from reconstructed, and thus challenge the near-universal presumption of an original recording, and hence even of recall of smaller fragments merely subject to rearrangement.
What is corporate memory? Anything to do with Dennett's multiple drafts? Which I may have had in mind when claiming there is an "opposite view" (to that which assumes a recording).
Far more reasonable than what you usually say. If they can dream, they can imagine and recall scenes. — Olivier5
off-line thoughts [dreams] don't (whereas at least some of the on-line ones do) have to be "about" the ongoing scenery and the organism's path through it. On the other hand, nothing is to stop them from replicating (if only partially and incoherently) previous on-line thoughts of that kind. The question is whether this, if it is roughly what happens, implicates mental images, as we tend to assume it does... — bongo fury
Sounds suspiciously like a zombie! — Marchesk
If I'm wrong, and the appropriately confused machine might still be unconscious, I need alerting towards features of my own conscious thoughts that I am leaving out of consideration. — bongo fury
But is it reasonable to expect that any animals without language ever "recall a scene to mind"?
— bongo fury
What would possess you to have such a doubt? — Isaac
Anthropomorphic assumptions, possibly. Like, that recalling a particular scene (e.g. the mouse nearly caught half and hour ago) involves recognising a time and place within a narrative (however primitive) of the day's events. Without that narrative, you only have a dream, possibly a day dream. Less plausibly recall of a scene. The neuro-muscular shiver relates no more specifically to the scene in question than does the shiver that happens more visibly when the cat claws at a toy.
Or, as I say, persuade me otherwise, by better describing a typical occasion on which an animal recalls a scene to mind.
@Olivier5 I speculate that human recall is based on such non-specific shivers, connected into a narrative; not on a recording, however distorted or fragmented.
how are brain shiver events about events — Harry Hindu
Thoughts are "about" things in that they are the brain so shivering its neurons as to adjust its readiness to act on those things. Conscious thoughts, in particular, adjust its readiness to select among symbols for pointing at those things. This kind of thought is thus (whether online or off) thought "in" symbols, and consequently prone to making us think (mistakenly, though often harmlessly) that the symbols are in our heads. — bongo fury -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?I doubt that we ourselves do it before we grasp the reference of words and pictures.
I'm open to persuasion though. Start with an ape? In what situation might it have the brain shivers that you would describe as having a mental image and I would describe as readying to select among pictures? -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?Ok, I may be exaggerating. Apparently it's only Bartlett and I that see the absurdity of the trace theories and memory-bank theories of memory. (Or google isn't my friend tonight.) [Edit: added Frankish link above.] But do share...
But is it reasonable to expect that any animals without language ever "recall a scene to mind"? Except whilst asleep and dreaming, of course... -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?If you can remember events from the past, you must have some way to record them. — Olivier5
That's one view, which people have widely held, even before the invention of the camera. (E.g. Hippocrates. Can't locate the source. "Soul receive images by day, recalls them by night", roughly.)
The opposite view is that "recalling a scene to mind" is a uniquely human skill of rehearsing and maintaining a narrative, ideally a highly flexible but consistent one. (E.g. Bartlett, Frankish.)
Having a narrative in the head is like having a song in the head. It's not literally there. (See above.) -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?Neural events. But not words or pictures.
Because I meant memories in the sense of rememberings.
In the sense of the scenes remembered, I could have said either the scenery itself or the words or pictures readied for use, or both. (None of which are, as neural events are, in the head.) -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?If it's neither, then you haven't said anything useful. — Harry Hindu
So you reject the premise that I said. Ok.
How are songs different than apples. — Harry Hindu
Songs are sound events. Having them "in your head" is practicing brain (and general neural and muscular) shivers that refine your readiness to engage with and participate in the sound events.
Personally, i think the use of the terms, "direct" and "indirect" are the cause of the problem. — Harry Hindu
To me, they do sometimes indicate a common commitment to internal representations. Hence my efforts here.
Sounds like you have person-sees-fruit events in your head — Harry Hindu
No, I experience, undergo, participate in them. -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?So, now that you think about it, it probably is all to do with storing traces in a memory.
So, you probably reject the premise. Ok.
— bongo fury
I beg to differ. Your premise says nothing about storing traces or not storing traces. — Olivier5
Well, it says no representations in the brain. Storable units corresponding to (representing) external events are excluded by implication. (Was my reasoning.)
If all organisms and even plants can learn, they can link past and present events, in the present. How do you explain that if no trace of the past is left in the organism? — Olivier5
The organism's ability to repeat and modify behaviours is a kind of a trace of the past. But explaining that doesn't seem to require us to infer the storing of traces or representations. -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?That an organism can learn is beyond dispute. — Olivier5
Not disputed.
Even organisms without neurones display an ability to learn. — Olivier5
:cool:
This ability must logically be... — Olivier5
Ah, so not your view as a biologist as such...
supported by some biological mechanisms to store some information, usually regrouped under the term 'memory'. — Olivier5
So, now that you think about it, it probably is all to do with storing traces in a memory.
So, you probably reject the premise. Ok.
I'll sulk if you didn't read the linked post, though. -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?If there's no trace left of the experience in the person, then that person will have no way to connect new experiences with past ones. — Olivier5
Is that your view as a biologist? That an organism learns by storing and comparing traces? -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?I'm aware the correct answer is 'practice'. But to recognize an apple, one needs to have some clue about how apples look like. — Olivier5
Are you quite sure you are sticking with the premise?...
Premise: it's neither
real apples in our brains — Harry Hindu
nor
representations of them in our brains — Harry Hindu
If so (if you are sticking with the premise), and "how apples look like" doesn't mean their matching representations in my brain, then I'm surprised the objection would arise.
How apples look like is how they participate in person-sees-fruit events, which are illumination events, which we learn to differentiate among through practice: active participation in such events. -
Attempting to acquire absolute pitchWhen there are two full octaves there are three distinct tonic notes, just like there are two tonic notes in one octave. This provides the composer with more opportunity for the approach to the resolving note. — Metaphysician Undercover
Interesting theory. -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?If it's neither then how do you know that what you experience has anything to do with apples at all? — Harry Hindu
Are you quite sure you are sticking with the premise?...
Premise: it's neither
real apples in our brains — Harry Hindu
nor
representations of them in our brains — Harry Hindu
If so (if you are sticking with the premise), and "what you experience" doesn't mean representations in my brain, then I'm surprised the question would arise.
What I experience are person-sees-apple events, person-reaches-for-apple events and person-eats-apple events: which are all pretty clearly to do with apples. -
Cryptocurrencyconverted a sizable percentage of my modest savings to bitcoin at the end of last month. Crypto's notoriously volatile and I know not to make too much of a sharp valuation-shift in a short time-window but the rapid appreciation of the investment was still dizzying enough for someone who has never made money on anything to lead me, effervescent, to try to talk some old friends into getting some. — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_bubble
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Attempting to acquire absolute pitchIn any case, D is the only key that I can get two full octaves, and this is why I like it. — Metaphysician Undercover
I can't agree there. Your two-octave vocal range is between one D and another D, yes. (Let's suppose.) But a melody spanning all or most of this range is no more likely to be in the key of D than in any other one of the 12 available keys. It might be, for example, Danny Boy, which (if I recall it accurately) you could sing only in G (starting on your low D) or in Ab or A or Bb. But not D. So your vocal range can't determine a preferred key or keys, without reference to a particular melody. You can't say, in general, "the key of D is best suited to my range".
But yes, this song would (because its span is approaching two octaves) be a particularly good example of a melody that you must be careful to begin at a suitable pitch. I remember a David Stafford piece wittily referring to the later highest note as "your money note". If you tried the song in D, you would need to start on an A and later on lurch from the A above it, all the way up to the F# just outside your range.
In fact, later trouble can arise from an unsuitable starting note whatever the span of the melody, so this,
This is where perfect pitch and knowing your vocal range, is very helpful. to make the quick decision required of what pitch to start the song on. It's convenient for Christmas carolers to have someone with perfect pitch for the lead in. — Metaphysician Undercover
is always true.
:ok: -
How does a naive realist theory of colour explain darkness?Do we have real apples in our brains or representations of them in our brains? — Harry Hindu
Or is it neither?
bongo fury
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