:smirk:You are struggling as best you can, for the sake of all of us, yes?
— universeness
Hell, no! All of yous are on your own.
Are you not still a secular democratic socialist?
— universeness
Nope. Cynical, burnt-out iconoclast — Vera Mont
... relinquished our divergent perspectives and interests. "We all" are always already entangled in at least as many or more win-lose / lose-lose than win-win games. "We few" micro-cooperators, perhaps many times over, is more like it – scarcity-exploiting partisans, sects, gangs, networks, tribes, etc. "We all", my friend, just doesn't effectively scale (re: global governance, the UN, international law enforcement (e.g. climate change, WMD proliferation, wealth laundering / tax-defrauding, etc) ... globalization ... communism ... "utopia", etc). AFAIK, wars & black markets are our most prevalent, recurring forms of macro-cooperation. Even the "Tower of Babel" myth is quite insightful about the inherent fractiousness of the human condition (ergo the unfortunate, historical utility of religio, religare). Don't forget, mate: at our best we're primates, not angels.if we all ... — universeness
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/16/judge-imposes-gag-order-on-donald-trump-in-d-c-trial-00121743Mr. Trump is a criminal defendant. He is facing four felony charges. He is under the supervision of the criminal justice system. He does not have the right to say and do exactly as he pleases. … No other criminal defendant would be allowed to do so and I am not going to permit it in this case. — Tonya Chutkan, US District Judge, Wash. DC, 16Oct23
This is entailed by "nothingness is impossible" (i.e. there cannot be not-something), no?[T]here may be no ultimate reason for existence; it may be that reality is a brute fact. — Ø implies everything
Well, to begin with, I didn't understand your "explanation" (maybe because it doesn't directly address the objections I'd raised here ). Also, I believe I've expressed my position on "democracy" in a number of exchanges with you previously, such as earlier on this thread ...↪180 Proof Wow, I gave a lot of time to my explanation and you have not kept your promise to address democracy. — Athena
Here's an excerpt from an old thread with the disingenuously polemical title Why Must You Be Governed?Okay pleaselist 10characteristics of democracy and perhaps say something about how they relate to our ideas of right and wrong. — Athena
In other words, "our ideas of right and wrong", Athena, are symptoms of the neoliberal ideology (or there is no alternative (T-I-N-A) to the corporatist status quo). The American Republic was founded on economic autocracy (read Charles A. Beard, 1913) just as classical Athens – your "educated for democracy" ideal – was founded on economic autoocracy (read Orlando Patterson, 1991); and the manifest purpose of "US education before 1958" was the same as it has been ever since 1958 (except maybe in style): generation after generation, for students and their teachers to internalize unquestioning conformity to and support for economic autocracy (e.g. neoliberal corporatism) in order to reinforce being full-time consumers while, at most, being quadrennial citizens. For 'the demos', of course, this is (still) a failing project.Democratize the economy as much as practically possible.
Political democracy in the absence of economic democracy (aka "economic autocracy" (becomes neoliberal corporatocracy)) has always been a failing project. [ ... ] Read A. Smith closely. & Read P. Kropotkin closely. Read D. Schweickart & T. Picketty closely. — 180 Proof
and then ...Eliminate Hamas — 180 Proof
Yes, including free from the post-1967, settler-apartheid strategems of the State of Israel.Free Palestine
— 180 Proof
You mean free from Hamas and other terrorist organizations. — magritte
Evict settlers from ALL of the internationally recognized Occupied Palestinian Territories.Evict Settlers.
— 180 Proof
Israel has actually evicted settlers. — ssu
:roll: :shade:Unfortunately, I doubt that anyone understands the importance of what I am saying. — Athena
Two women with
the same claim
came to the feet of
the wise king. Two women,
but only one baby.
The king knew
someone was lying.
What he said was
Let the child be
cut in half; that way
no one will go
empty-handed. He
drew his sword.
Then, of the two
women, one
renounced her share:
this was
the sign, the lesson.
Suppose
you saw your mother
torn between two daughters:
what could you do
to save her but be
willing to destroy
yourself—she would know
who was the rightful child,
the one who couldn't bear
to divide the mother. — A Fable, Louise Glück
He who sows injustice will reap violence, and the rod of his wrath will fail. — Proverbs 22:8
It's called "maturity", no? Having become wiser.I was an idealist when I was young, but life turned me into a realist — Agree-to-Disagree
By "history" I mean only recorded history, which is the operational framework of modern civilization/s, no? Left to our own state-capitalist (plutocratic) devices, IMO, "global governance / unity" is thereby manifestly improbable (i.e. an intractable N-body problem).History teaches ad nauseam that we, as a species, are incapable of deliberative self-governance (i.e. liberty) above the municipal scale, as the contemporary state of "global affairs" savagely demonstrates. — 180 Proof
Seriously, I believe humans are capable of good reasoning based on truth, but I also think that requires an education that we are not getting.
— Athena
When and where in the last half millenium did most, or many, human beings get such an education? And why did such an education fall out of favor with educated leaders (i.e. movers & shakers) so much so that, apparently, "we are not getting" it any longer? — 180 Proof
My question above still stands, Athena, to which I add: so what was the pre-"1958" "purpose of education" vis-à-vis state-sanctioned racial terrorism / legal segregation, systemic discrimination against women & gays, widespread unfair & unsafe labor practices, endemic populist antisemitism, wholesale environmental degregation by agriculture & heavy industry, and ongoing land (and mineral rights) theft from and 'public erasure' of Indigenous Americans ... at least since the ratification of the US Constitution in 1788?We have been going through social breakdown or what some may call creative destruction at least since 1958 when the National Defense Education Act radically changed the purpose of education. — Athena
:up:What apartheid is referring to in this case is not the situation within Israel, but the situation between Israel and the Palestinian territories. — Tzeentch
:clap: Well said!Slaves to stupidity with no master but greed. — Pantagruel
Yes! :100:I interpret Kant's idea of in-itself as signifying that we know only what appears to us, which is not to say we know nothing of consciousness-independent real things, but that the reality of those things is not exhausted by how they appear to us and other cognitive beings. — Janus
