Notice @Gnomon did not answer ...Suppose cosmologists develop a testable theory that accounts for the conditions at the big bang? Would you abandon your hypothesis, or revise it? — Relativist
:up:You sound confident about the independence of our world from any uncaused First Cause. — Gnomon
TBD (by physics, not metaphysics)..[W]hat is the "exact nature" of that prior state, ...
e.g. Black holes, cosmic inflation (i.e. accelerated expansion), quantum uncertainty (re: vacuum energy), Pauli Exclusion Principle ...... and what is the evidence for it?
Not yet.Have those cosmologists solved the "puzzle" of the hypothetical "prior state" with facts that us amateur philosophers don't know, ...
I prefer the informed, educated guesswork of cosmologists to almost all non-scientists' 'speculative wankery' (e.g. "unmoved mover" "first cause" "creator-programmer") à la woo-of-the-gaps. :mask:... or are they just guessing, ...?
I've no idea what this means, or what "that" refers to. Besides, "implies" doesn't do the work of causes ...That there are things which "be". That implies non-being — AmadeusD
:up: :up:What exists today is a consequence of what existed before. — Relativist
No I don't. What are (some) Intelligible grounds to believe that 'nonbeing became being'?Do you not find it mysterious how non-being eventually turned into being? — kindred
:up:Cosmology has not concluded our world is dependent on anything. — Relativist
On the contrary, as I've stated in many other posts, the purported BB (@ negative 13.81 billion years) is the earliest moment modern science can measure in the inflationary-entropic development of spacetime and (our) "inquiring Minds" are evolved ephemerae who are atavistically motivated to confabulate various self-comforting, narrative denials of the reality that "inquiring Minds" are only ephemerae (à la Buddha's anicca, Democritus' atomic swirl, Spinoza's finite modes ...)Apparently 180doesn't see any purpose to an evolving world that began with nothing (zero) but Potential (infinity) and has produced inquiring Minds that explore the mystery of Being. — Gnomon
The way I see it – if such models, for all their limitations, are both prevalent and more adaptive than the alternatives, then all the better for our reasoning capabilities and practices.So much thinking may become so concrete, as if models, including the mathematical and scientific ones, are seen as all encompassing. This may show a bias and diminishing of human reason — Jack Cummins
I think so.Is story and metaphor central to all understanding of 'truth'? — Jack Cummins
:up:The fact that you replied to me shows that the world is pretty much as it seems. — Banno
:death: :flower:We are all mortal beings as we pursue the philosophical questions. Everything in life is impermanent and all exploration occurs within the uncertainties of an unknown future. — Jack Cummins
Thunderbolt and lightning,
very, very frightening
me
(Galileo)
Galileo,
(Galileo)
Galileo,
Galileo Figaro,
magnifico ...
Refutes itself.There is no such thing as truth. — Kurt
It's not a matter of 'narrativity' or the absence of it but to use logos to transform mythos into narratives which frame - interpret as – explanable models (i.e. 'predictive' fact-patterns). This, I think, is what Thales and other Pre-Socratics (6th-4th century BCE) were up to.logos has been used to demythologize – but cannot fully eliminate – mythos — 180 Proof
Won't find any in foxholes either. :smirk:Idealists don't play in traffic? — RogueAI
Idle question(s). 'Your context' does not provide any grounds to doubt "what is really there" and, in such a context, you're "seeing" is indubitable (pace Zhuangzi ... Descartes ... Kant ...) so that it makes most sense for (sober, awake, pragmatic) you to act accordingly.what if what I am seeing is not what is really there, ...? — Kurt
Well, at least as far back as Thales, logos (re: "laws") has been used to demythologize – but cannot fully eliminate – mythos (re: "gods") in order to raise intelligible questions about 'reality or ourselves' which we do not know (yet) how to decisively answer. Suppositions and interpretations, not explanations, are the best, imho, (we) philosophers can do with nothing more than 'conceptual schema'.What do you think about the juxtaposition between ]logos and myth in the scheme of philosophical understanding? — Jack Cummins
:up: Same here. In my book this "excuse" amounts to appeal to ignorance (i.e. woo-of-the-gaps).I'm suspicious of using this explanatory gap as an excuse to believe in some sort of spiritualism. — Relativist
Well, not only doesn't that follow (category error), but all three concepts are mere abstractions; what makes any of them "woo woo nonsense" is attributing causal – physical – properties to any of them like "creator" "mover" ... "programmer". :eyes:If such a God is woo-woo nonsense, then so is Zero & Infinity. — Gnomon
I agree. Idealism, antirealism, immaterialism ... quantum woo-woo, etc are much poorer alternatives. :up:I embrace physicalism because (AFAIK) it's the best general answer to the nature of reality. I don't have some undying faith in it, and I know it has its limitations. But I treat it as the premise when analyzing everything in the world. This seems the most pragmatic approach — Relativist
The late, great Anthropocene. :monkey:Behold, the enemy! — unenlightened
Yes.I am thinking that your issues may come down to diabetes, which is so prevalent. — Jack Cummins
needing compassionembodied beings
:100:[W]e're not in a position to know whether people care about others or not. We can only judge by actions, not by sentiment or professed values. What do people actually do? — Tom Storm
Nonsense. "Nothing" necessarily cannot "exist".I go with the theory that once upon a time, nothing existed. Then all of a sudden, something came into existence. — alleybear
... except, sir, you don't seem to grasp that "logical necessity", as you say, does not scientifically have anything to do with dynamics in or the development of the physical world.[A]ll I know about this logical necessity ... — Gnomon
The BBT is a model of physical processes; (the) "mathematical" is merely abstract and, therefore, cannot "evolve".... how we, and our world, evolved from mathematical Big Bang Singularity
Yes, decades ago.Are you familiar with D M Armstrong? — Wayfarer
Even if this 'claim' is true – of course there's no evidence for it – so what? Physics explains many fundamental aspects of the physical world and not (yet) others; "human existence" is tangentally something else entirely outside modern physics' remit. Why do you persist on blaming physics for not doing something that physicists don't use it for? Re: materialism – You're (still) shadowboxing with a burning strawman, Wayf.[P]hysics is based on a useful abstraction, which has yielded enormous physical powers, but at the expense of excluding fundamental aspects of human existence. — Wayfarer
I'm currently in a rehabilitation facility (for a couple of more months) with other post-op amputees and variously disabled elders where I'm confronted especially each night by sounds of acute pains (and prolonged indignities due to staffing shortage) which, even as a recovering patient/resident in this place, I'm not prepared to ignore or disregard. Is this "compassion" (now thwarted by own incapacity)?... thinking about the nature of compassion. — Jack Cummins
No. The latter is active and former passive.Does Empathy Always Lead to Sympathy?
And what about, for instance, the atrocities and abuses countless generations of folks long before this era have inflicted on one another as if they were "machine-like robots" completely devoid of "empathy" and "sympathy"? The modern world, global civilization, was not built or maintained by "compassion", mate – current technocapitalism, imo, doesn't make today's "compassion" problem any more acute and dire than it was back when the Upanishads were being written.I see this question as particularly significant as so much is becoming 'robotic' and machine-based?
No, as pointed out above.Is it leading to moral indifference and based on the philosophy of the objective idea of the importance of 'emotional detachment as an ethical ideal?
They are (like) moods; the relevant capability, or trait, is compassion – motivation stronger than sympathy to actually help alleviate another person's suffering – actually helping one another.What do you think about the ideas of sympathy, empathy and its relevance for life?.
Just as there is no ocean "outside of" ocean-waves, there is no "world outside ourselves" because we – our minds – are aspects of the world itself rather than a separate Cartesian substance. Maybe it's how you've expressed your point, T Clark, that doesn't make sense to me. Anyway, I'll go on: my point – maybe not quite the OP's – is not that "logic is inherent in existence" but, parsimoniously, that logic is existence (i.e. 'universes' themselves are logico-computable processes ~Spinoza ... Deutsch, Wolfram, Tegmark) about / from which we (can) derive abbreviated syntaxes & formulae (which are, in effect, maps yet often mistaken for terrain (e.g. Plato-Aristotle, Kant-Husserl, Russell-Carnap)). :chin:Logic is not inherent in existence itself, whatever that means. To the extent it is a discovery, it is a discovery about the way our minds work, not about anything in the world outside ourselves. — T Clark
:fire:So - magical? Well, I think not, but something even greater in some respects
— Wayfarer
This is what I see as an enormous problem in your position. It depends on uncritically accepting the existence of magic (or "something even greater"). I've seen no justification for this other than arguments from authority (the ancients had this view) and arguments from ignorance (physicalism's explanatory gap). — Relativist
:up: :up:Could it be that humans are unrealistically impressed by reason, treating it as the highest or even only valid form of understanding? But reason is just one tool among many, and has limited use. It struggles with emotions, ambiguity, and subjective experiences. It's clear that no logical argument can fully capture grief, happiness, aesthetic appreciation, or empathy. I wonder if we overestimate its power, forgetting that perhaps it evolved for survival, not for solving metaphysical puzzles or guaranteeing truth. — Tom Storm
:up: :up:Plantinga's argument is fatally flawed. In order to survive, every organism needs a functionally accurate perception of its environment to successfully interact with it. Primitive rationality is exhibited when animals adapt there hunting behavior when necessary, doing things that work instead of those that don't. The evolution of abstract reasoning would have been an evolutionary dead end leading to extinction, if it worsened our ability to interact with the environment. — Relativist
I'd go even further and claim, in a Spinozist sense, that logic IS being and that the law of non-contradiction (LNC) entails differentiations (i.e. multiplicities, or discontinua (à la 'atoms flowing in void')). Though 'systems of logic' are invented (i.e. derived), my guess is the applicability to being of such inventions is discovered as any given landscape of modalities (i.e. phase space) is explored.The moment anything exists - anything that has potential for differentiation - logical structure emerges naturally. Where there's being, there's logic. — tom111
:up: :up:What I haven't seen is a justification for believing there is ontological teleology. It seems a guess, just like physicalism is a guess - but physicalism strays very little from the known. — Relativist
Yes. I don't see why it wouldn't be useful.Do you think reason is a useful means of evaluating conceptions of God? — Tom Storm
