I'm just granting him this point that after WWI the treaty of versailles was unjust and unfairly penalized Germany. There are obviously different sides to this debate and I'm not going to dig too much into the weeds but historical consensus is that the treaty of versailles was very harsh and those conditions were considered a catalyst for hitler.

The difference of course is that Germany had a lot of agency despite the crime that was Versailles. — Benkei

We both agree that the Germans were oppressed, i.e. were victims, which to my understanding means that they are cannot be blamed for just trying to get even according to a certain logic. When did the Germans suddenly stop being victims and gain agency? Which year? How? What would it mean for the Palestinians to gain "agency?"

Probably. We don't know what sort of society would've developed if the people weren't being oppressed. A lot of problems like this are a consequence of poverty. — Benkei

So are WWII & the Holocaust essentially the fault of the Allies because of the Versailles treaty? The Versailles treaty treated the Germans terribly and threw the German economy into chaos making leaders like Hitler more viable. Is every bit of Nazi racism the fault of the Allies who punished Germany too harshly while simultaneously leaving Germany intact as a state? Why give Germany free will? They were punished, they were abused after WWI. Poor little victims abused by the Western powers.

Additionally, is everything that happened in the ghettos in WWII the responsibility of the Nazis? When Jewish leaders collaborating with the Nazis arrested members of resistance movements are those Jewish leaders blameless because they were helpless victims controlled by the Nazis despite taking pro-active steps of their own volition to destroy those resistance groups? How about Jewish who stole food & embezzled funds intended for the general Jewish population? Innocent Nazi victims?

You have a unique view on responsibility here but I don't quite know if I buy it. It seems to be something along the lines of "If a stronger power does something which greatly impacts/hurts a society then every problem that comes from that society is the fault of that stronger power."

Homeland doesn't mean state in some, nor from the west bank to the sea in others. — Benkei

It is 2021, Zionism has already been realized. It does not matter if other thinkers had other ideas because a state has been established. Borders change and neither side needs to stop building.

I've condemned it but maintain that every atrocity happening to Israelis is of their own making and every atrocity befalling the Palestinians is wreaked upon them by Israel. — Benkei

How about the atrocity of how gays are treated in Gaza? Or the atrocity of how they treat their women? I guess the Jews really do control everything. I'm sure when Palestinian men beat their wives it is also Israel's fault.

— Benkei

Israel is asking for it by treating Palestinians as animals and as such has no moral standing to be outraged by a bunch of ineffectual rocket attacks — Benkei

You know Israel is full of Israelis, right? Do individual Israelis have a right to be upset when their neighbors are killed? Is that okay with you? Let's talk about the people now.

Either that or you're pivoting between this restricted understanding and the more general one which equates Zionism with Israel's military expansion rather than with its existence. — fdrake

It depends on whose narrative we go by. You're talking with me, so you're going to get the Jewish narrative. If we talked to a pro-Palestinian Arab he'd likely say (as Hamas does) that the original birth of the Israeli state was an unjust expansion in the sense that it stole Muslim land. Every inch taken of Muslim land is an unjust expansion according to that narrative. This is a very common view among the Palestinians as well as across the Arab world.

Is the contemporary support of Zionism really about the boring uncontroversial point that Israel should continue to exist - a fact even Hamas supports, or is it more saucy and about the expansion? — fdrake

This is not a boring and uncontroversial point at all. If that's how you consider it then you're around decent, civilized company but do not take your experience as the majority one. I'm happy to bring in polls and there's also a popular youtuber as who just walks around asking Arabs and Israelis questions and you can get a decent sample of their opinions from that. Look up Corey Gil-Shuster. Check out the one where he asks Palestinians "If Israel withdrew to '67 borders would that bring peace?" Spoiler: Some said yes, but at least half said no.

If it smells like a duck, quacks like a duck, and happily sings in praise of sectarian warcrimes... — fdrake

I don't think it's fair to equate any country with their far right. I don't do it with the UK and I hope you wouldn't do that with America. Needless to say conflict brings out the worst in people.

Considering "anti-zionism is anti-semitism" — fdrake

Anti-Zionism in 2021 is straight-up bizarre. Zionism is nothing more than the idea that Jews need a homeland in the region, and since this has already happened that means Zionism has already been realized. To be anti-Zionism in, say, 1935 makes sense -- it would mean that someone just doesn't support the creation of a Jewish state in Judea/Samaria. Being an anti-Zionism in 2021 means that you seemingly want the state of Israel (i.e. Jewish security) to stop "being." That is how I understand anti-Zionism. It is very, very suspect.

that the propaganda surrounding the state of Israel equates Jewish national identity with Zionism with Israel's military expansion — fdrake

If we are to call this propaganda, then this "propaganda" that equates Zionism with national jewish identity has been swallowed hook, line, and sinker by the West's Jewish communities if we are to consider it "propaganda."

But let me pose you a question: What role does an outsider have in forging another group's identity? Should we both engage in a discussion about what black people are and what their future ought to be? In practice, one cannot attack Zionism without attacking the vast majority of Jewish communities. I've never been to a temple or a synagogue that was anti-Zionist.

There's genocide everywhere. There's racism everywhere. The entire world is mud, so why should I go out of my way and take up my own time to try to convince you that Israel is not mud when the rest of the world is? If the Israelis are genocidal then so are the Palestinians. The intention is there. Israelis are murdered in the name of genocide. Both sides, as well as the entire world, are genocidal maniacs (except you.)

Your own country of Australia is obviously institutionally racist and genocidal. I'm surprised you don't mention that.

No, the only reason I post is everytime you post falsehoods and mistakes I'll be more than happy to correct it so that less biased people can know what's really going on. — Benkei

Your focus on factual correctness here is masturbatory. As long as you continue to support (which is effectively the same as refusing to condemn) the deliberate murder of innocent civilians I cannot engage with you, it is that simple. Please come back to the side of humanity here.

It's like if the Netherlands were in a dispute (fine lets call it an occupation) and I told you "oh by the way, I don't have any problems with the opposition running into your house and murdering the lot of you." Now let's proceed! Let's make progress on this issue!

Yeah we can talk later I'll be over on the other thread you made.

Is it ever hard to function when the entire world around you is so unrepentantly racist and genocidal? Is it difficult being the only good one? Does it ever get lonely or have you just kinda learned to live with it? It must get very lonely up there on the pedestal.

Do your parents think just like you? It must be tough when everyone around you are racist, blood-thirsty genocide supporters.

Yes, and FDR is Hitler and so is Obama and you're the only one in this world who has any semblance of moral decency.

Not the same thing. These arrests were in response to violent protests and weapons stockpiling.

No it doesn't and it's obvious you just perceive Israel as Nazi Germany or something along those lines and I don't have the time or effort to dispel that notion.

Israel will not arrest people for communicating with Palestinians in Gaza. It's not my fault you don't understand anything.

I shouldn't have to say this because it should be widely known but Israel does not arrest non-violent peace activists for trying to make connections with the other side and any regime that does is a terrorist regime and a rotten government inside and out. Doing something like that violates the basics.

This is not about Israel.

The folks you're referring to are in lock down mode. There is no evidence or reasoning which will have the slightest impact on their point of view. In that sense, we've done a good job of creating a Middle East thread. :-) — Foghorn

Damn straight, it's all about who you engage. I have had good conversations here with other posters and even some of the posters who I'd consider less than objective will sometimes still bring up decent points or points that I hadn't considered. My discussions with numerous posters have ran their course but I'm still going strong with one.

Given that there is exactly no chance of that happening....

Now what? — Foghorn

It was actually really funny, I gave him an article about how Hamas arrested & imprisoned 3 Palestinian grassroots peace activists for talking with Israeli peace activists over skype or zoom and his response was basically "well it was all done by the books and done very professionally, unlike the Israelis!" :brow:

I guess the "now what" is that we've reached the end of our conversation and we move onto a different topic.

If we are to have a productive conversation on this subject it starts with you condemning Hamas and their methods. Until that happens this discussion is not moving forward.

We've been through this conversation a billion times and I don't feel like rehashing things with you for a 1 billion + 1 time. Have our discussions on this topic been productive in the past or have they just been fighting? We're way too far apart on this issue to communicate productively. I don't understand why you keep engaging me. Is it because you want to change my mind? Is it because you genuinely want to learn something or understand my position? I don't feel like jumping back into the mud today.

Imho, you're the sanest and most serious person in the thread. You got sucked in to the shit storm a bit here and there, but overall you kept your cool and stuck to reasoning. — Foghorn

Yeah, I did get sucked into the shit storm a bit, and it's interesting to reflect and think back "why did this person have this affect on me?" Thinking about this question helped me define myself and my values a little better. Every once in a while you'll just come across someone who not just manages to push the right buttons, but to also push them in a certain way.

A great deal of this thread seems fairly described as conflict for the sake of conflict. That is, conflict engaged because we find conflict somehow psychologically satisfying. I'm wondering the degree to which this phenomena helps fuel the endless cycle in the Middle East. — Foghorn

I'll admit that there has been that "conflict for the sake of conflict" element in this thread but I don't see my current discussion here with @fdrake as falling under that banner.

I don't know if "psychologically satisfying" is the word I would use. There's also a big difference between a written argument with anonymous strangers and actually going out on the street and doing this type of thing against another group.

. A minority on both sides may have become addicted to the conflict more for personal reasons than substantive ones. — Foghorn

This sounds right, and I just want to add that people change when they're exposed to high levels of stress or trauma over longer time frames. One's environment does change people. I say this as a veteran but not a combat veteran.

Here's a question. To what degree is the Middle East conflict endless conflict cycle fueled by the very same psychological needs and motivations etc that have fueled this thread? — Foghorn

I can just turn off conversations when I get bored or annoyed with a poster. I've already cut off one poster entirely because he was advocating for intentionally murdering civilians and using religious/moral language to justify it. I had the luxury of turning that off, but if I was exposed to that daily I would be a very different person and a lot less amenable to conversation. Repeated exposure to conflict and hate drags one down.

Note that such practices are explicitly called part of the culture of Zionism, according to one of the march's political advocates in the state of Israel, as the New York Times documents. — fdrake

I must have not got the memo that Zionism includes provocative marches and threats. All Zionism is is a commitment to a Jewish homeland in the region.

I ask you to turn this post about - imagine it was a Jewish community standing on this precipice, what would you recommend? I think we already know - get the rifle, never again. — fdrake

Are you asking me what if Jews were in the place of the Palestinians? We would not be in this place because we would never refuse to recognize another group. We wouldn't refuse to establish diplomatic relations with them. That's the first step towards any political reconciliation. Nor would we teach our children that they must avenge their history by any means necessary. Jews have been kicked out of Judea several times.

Yes. Zionists shouting racialised death threates while marching through a Palestinian dominant neighbourhood. Accompanied by the marching drums of incendiary bombs dropped on civilians in Gaza. — fdrake

You'll see the same thing on the Arab side -- yes, without the march through Israel but they would if they could -- and this is not intended to serve as an excuse or justification, more of a "welcome to the shit." There's plenty of footage of Arab/Palestinian rallies where they burn Israeli flags or shout death to Israel or Jews and launch rockets. The march might have been in response to rock throwing. It's just an endless cycle. The news covers some events and not others and we never get the complete picture.

I am not currently aware of any Israeli plan or intention to annex Gaza, so when you mention existential threat that's more or less what I think of. It wouldn't even make sense for Israel to annex Gaza - what is it going to do with the Palestinians?

Crypto markets looking shaky, indecisive right now. Stablecoins yields quite generous though. excellent apys and fairly safe investment. I'm surprised this doesn't receive a little more attention.

Mai Khalid Afana, a Palestinian doctor and lecturer was executed a few hours ago by Israel murderers after accidentally being on the "Jews Only" side of the road. — StreetlightX

Oooh, you edited it from "Jewish murderers" to "Israeli murderers" -- why did you do that?? Why revert back, I'm interested.

Why not phrase it like this: "Mai Khalid Afana, a Palestinian doctor and lecturer was executed a few hours ago by Jewish murderers during the ongoing Final Solution of the Palestinian people inside of an extermination camp."

And Israel's aggression is not blatant because you're under the impression you didn't start it? — Benkei

Yes. It's a complex chain of events.

So as long as I don't throw the first punch I'm in the clear? Are you 6? Because that's the exact argument I get from my daughter when she hurts her little brother "but he started it!" — Benkei

You're comparing Israel and Palestine to children right now. The level of arrogance is unbelievably. The term "be less white" has never made more sense to me than it does now.

Ethnic cleansing is not two children fighting.

Yes, let's discuss the crimes committed by resistance fighters against the Germans. That's really going to make the Nazi crimes much less worse. — Benkei

In the case of the resistance fighters all that violence was carried out in response to blatant Nazi aggression, but what was the initial act of Israeli aggression that you condemn? I want to hear one specific cause that justifies all this violence. There was violence before 1967.

I don't recall too many instances of resistance fighters wantonly attacking Germans civilians however.

:rofl:

Which of course you would think that you have complete, unfettered access to. Yes, I know. You see and know all.

According to your sources that is true. Not according to mine.

In what world is it only fair to only discuss the crimes of one side of a conflict?

Yeah, because Israeli Jews are basically Nazis. Why did I waste my words there?

A state with a "Jews Only" street does not require 'understanding'. It requires dismantling. — StreetlightX

Show me please. Where is this street? Who enforces this policy? Or is this at a border checkpoint and they're trying to speed up the process?

Why am I angry? It's not that I'm angry, but maybe a little perturbed. In a sentence, I'm perturbed at the inability or unwillingness of various posters to even try to entertain or empathize with the Jewish narrative on this issue for even one second. It is their insistence on taking their own perspective -- an outsider's perspective which clearly lacks cultural and religious understanding -- and unquestionably elevating it to the standard of absolute truth without regard for the perspectives and histories of the other parties involved.

You're right, the facts are out there, but maybe there's a little more to it than has been mentioned. Maybe things aren't as simple as you think, and maybe there are better and worse ways to frame criticisms.

EDIT: Gaza and the WB are not the fundamental issues at hand here and are not the fundamental issues to either party except clueless westerns who were born yesterday.

You really have no idea about the facts on the ground do you? For instance, it's illegal for Christians to preach to Jews (but of course not the other way around). — Benkei

Oh tell me about the "facts on the ground" from your intensive, hands on experience in Israel. Show me when this has gone to court. Are Christians being sent to jail or fined for preaching to Jews?

When do Jews ever preach to Christians??? We don't even try to convert.

Lets just start with this one before moving onto the others. Please show me these brave Christian martyrs who have been persecuted by Israel.

Let's just start here.

Are we ever going to talk about Moroccans in the Netherlands? Why is institutional racism so prevalent there? Is Dutch society just rotten to the core? Why is everything so unequal? Let's talk about that next.

Yeah, just by being there Israel is complicit. They have staked their claim. It is worth mentioning though that the Arab states themselves are in a complex network of alliances and are by no means united. There's long-standing bad blood between Sunnis and Shi'ites and some Arab countries have a shown a willingness to get a little closer with Israel if it means situating themselves a little better against a strong regional enemy like Iran. There are so many other issues out there for the Arabs besides Israel-Palestine.

So what do you picture? An eternal struggle? Does this end only when one of the parties is dead on the floor? — Foghorn

I really hope not. I guess I place my hope in grassroots movements; the two groups have to learn to live together, there is no other option. You might want to check out Rudy Rochman on youtube he has a bunch of interesting discussions on this topic which pushes more of a ground-up solution. He also opposes Israel on a range of topics. Regardless, if we continue to frame the conflict in certain ways (which we see examples of in this thread) there will simply never be peace.

Doesn't controlling the West Bank just put off the inevitable? — Foghorn

Israel does not control all of the WB, they've already gave back some of it to the Palestinians... I believe in '95. Even before Israel captured it in '67 it was controlled by Jordan, not the Palestinians. And the Jordanians only took an interest in it as a way to attack Israel during the Independence War. I have no idea who rightfully controls it and the fact that complete outsiders have such strong opinions on this is bizarre. Jews have been living in the WB alongside Arabs for centuries.

Yes, which is why I've suggested leaving the Middle East. — Foghorn

Jewish culture has such deep roots in Israel (it's where Judaism was formed) that packing up and leaving out of fear is just cowardice. A people like that don't even deserve their own state.

We're not talking about atrocity right now. We're talking about understanding.

Yeah I don't use cultural relativism to excuse atrocity and inhumanity. — StreetlightX

You also don't use it to understand conflicts as they are understood by those actually engaged in them.

No it is Israel's existence. But understanding this would involve taking on the perspective of another culture/religion which is clearly beyond your capabilities.