I didn’t like the way it degenerated into a monster hunt. The world building was great, the plot, not so much. It felt a bit like an action movie: fascinating premise, then boring. — Jamal

I know what you mean when you say monster hunt. It really was a change in style and tempo. It did feel a bit anticlimactic. As for plot - it made me think of "Titus Groan." When you and I discussed that, I said the plot doesn't matter. You disagreed. I feel the same way here. I was never bored.

For novels, I prefer paperback (or hardcopy). — Manuel

Miellville is one of those writers I wouldn't read except electronically. His use of language is skilled and idiosyncratic. On the other hand, it never feels forced. I find myself looking up words every page or so. I wouldn't do that in a paper copy and I'd miss much of the writing.

Perdido Street Station by China Miéville — Manuel

I finished it. I don't know anyone who writes better. His language is wonderful, visual.

So do you have a kindle? I noticed it is on sale for $2.99 in kindle format on Amazon right now, at least in the US.

Well I'd say looking at things simplistically and assigning blame on the basis of our simplistic 'understanding' of things is just something all of us social primates do, at least from time to time. — wonderer1

Agreed.

Is this your way of saying you never understood what the thread was about or you never understood what incels were? I think it's fair to be curious about who you think you're going to bat for here. Would you also demand compassion for Nazis and white supremacists? Or is it that you never meant incels but as Hanover has specified, unaligned marginalized young men who are not misogynistic etc. I think it's reasonable to ask that that be specified considering there's a significant difference there. I don't believe it is at all humane to demand sympathy for victimizers over victims. Quite the reverse. (Not a mod issue btw, no.) — Baden

Point out the comments you find offensive and I'll respond.

It's difficult to know if you and T Clark have realised how offensive is the idea that women (especially) should be compassionate towards an organized online group ("incels", the subject of this thread) that considers them to be semi-sentient animals who want to be and should be raped by them and otherwise enslaved to give them pleasure. — Baden

A couple of thoughts:

I've gone back through my posts in this thread and I didn't find any where I suggested compassion towards "an organized online group ("incels", the subject of this thread) that considers them to be semi-sentient animals who want to be and should be raped by them and otherwise enslaved to give them pleasure."

Are you suggesting I should not express opinions you find offensive? Did I write anything in my responses that violated site guidelines? Let me be clear - I'm not writing my posts to be provocative or troublesome. I'm not a troll. I believe the things I've written. I think they are reasonable and humane.

Whatever I've said about my posts are equally true for @BC's. His support for and understanding of the oppressed is unique here on the forum. For you take him to task is a joke.

Then you need to start being a bit more clear what it is you disagree with and on what basis. — unenlightened

An old joke - Shut up he explained.

It's looking like you have no idea what is being talked about. 8 pages in that is not a great look. — unenlightened

The fact I don't agree with a lot of what is being written here is not a sign I don't understand what is being discussed. And I haven't been aiming for "a great look." You are one of the people I respect most here on the forum, but I don't appreciate you trying to shame me into shutting up. The fact that you, of all people, have done that shows me it is important to keep trying to get my points across.

Feeling disempowered implies feeling a desire or need for power. — unenlightened

Perhaps, but it doesn't imply "...that there is a male need/right to heterosexual sex that society, (women specifically,) ought to provide and does not.

I actually asked the spokesman of the the Incel-movement these questions, and he told me that they want nothing less than world-domination. — ChatteringMonkey

A few years ago there was a nasty, bitter discussion which proposed the same measures you are describing, but with the roles reversed - only women would be allowed and men would be allowed to die out. It was called, ironically enough, "A plan for world peace" and it was started, ironically enough, by a man. The thread has been deleted, but there is a discussion I started in response.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/3366/should-a-proposal-to-eliminate-men-from-society-be-allowed-on-the-forum/p1

A well-thought-out and humane post.

The incel is male, and self-defining as disempowered ( because 'involuntary') as a sexually active person. This immediately implies that there is a male need/right to heterosexual sex that society, (women specifically,) ought to provide and does not. — unenlightened

I don't think this is true at all. Feeling disempowered doesn't imply anything. It is a common and understandable reaction to an unsatisfying life.

I've no idea why it's so commonplace. My intuition asks that if self loathing is commonplace, what makes so many cis het white men hate themselves? — fdrake

I don't think it's just men, I think it's all kinds of people - perhaps everyone to some extent. It just so happens we are talking about a particular manifestation that is specific to men. Societal expectations are hard to deal with. That's certainly true for me and it has had a damaging effect on my life and happiness. I've been fortunate in how things have worked out. It could have been otherwise.

Good post.

Any alternative groups are easily defined. Eg. Feminism exists much more easily and effectively as a movement in counter to an overtly mysoginistic society than it would if the society was already completely equal between sexes. If every had equal and fair treatment, what need would there be for any movements? — Benj96

I don't agree with this, but this is not the place to take it up.

I quite understand that you'd rather not be an advocate for the claims that were made about Christianity. There's no reason to be concerned about that, really. It's quite alright. — Ciceronianus

I don't know enough about @ChatteringMonkey's claims to have an opinion. They seem plausible. I intend to follow up with the source he referenced. Unlike many here on the forum I don't have any antipathy toward religion. I suspect you can't separate it from other social factors when considering social history.

A discussion of the contributions of the Christian religion to Enlightenment values and the rights of individuals--especially those of women--seems to me out of place in a thread about incels. It's true, though, that the conduct of many Catholic priests serve as examples of the potentially harmful results of sexual frustration, though primarily to children, not women. So perhaps there is a connection of a sort. — Ciceronianus

@ChatteringMonkey isn't the one who brought religion into the discussion. That was @Christoffer. Then you stuck your head in, spouted out some unsupported and provocative statements, and followed up with "Just sayin." Methinks the laddie doth protest too much.

sincerely — 0 thru 9

I don't doubt your sincerity.

But I didn't want to derail the thread by addressing them. — Ciceronianus

This is the semantic equivalent to one of my favorite passive-aggressive southernisms - "Just sayin."

It is feminism if the society is inherently patriarchal/misogynistic to begin with. Which it is. Equal rights in a male-biased system is feminist (supports/endorses conferring more power to women to equalise the status quo). — Benj96

To be consistent with that standard, you'll have to agree it's ok for me to claim to be a member of the black power movement.

You seem an intrusive, prickly, sanctimonious sort. But I hope you're not. — Ciceronianus

Alas, I hate to dash your hopes.

I would say that a "movement" (belief system/ideology) is not equal to your innate ethnicity/ definition or characterisation as a person. — Benj96

I didn't say BLM, I said black power. Saying you support equal rights for women is not the same as saying you are a feminist.

I can concede that some male feminism is bullshit. Other male feminism not so much. I like to think me reasons for being one are simple and concrete, despite what assumptions may be made about me for identifying as a proponent of it. — Benj96

I'm white. What would you think if I characterized myself as member of the black power movement?

I'm hopeful you're being ironic, but fear you're not. — Ciceronianus

You know what CM is saying and you know they mean it. This is just passive-aggressive baloney.

Matriarchy and Patriarchy are created out of feminine and masculine qualities, not gender (although obviously there is correlation there.) — TheMadMan

I've never thought of it that way before. You're right.

I thought this thread on THIS forum would have a little higher level of discourse on the subject. — Christoffer

As I noted in my last post, it is standard operating procedure to tag people who disagree with you as misogynist and racist.

You didn't answer my questions about your attitude towards violent looters and rioters.

Male feminism is bullshit? If that's the case it's just divisive and pigeon holing all men inti a category of inherently non-feminist in values. Or mysognistic by virtue of being a man. Doesn't seem fair or rational. — Benj96

No, no. I understand the ideology. Any man who doesn't toe the party line is misogynistic just like anyone who doesn't support Israel is anti-semitic, anyone who doesn't support the Black Lives Matter movement is racist, and anyone who doesn't agree with you politically is a fascist.

I understand the behavior fully — Christoffer

Looking back over your posts in this thread, I don't see that all. Everything you've written is couched in the language of ideological feminism. That allows you to judge without thinking.

Do you approve of that behavior? Do you respect them based on that behavior? Again, what is it that you are defending here? — Christoffer

I feel sympathy for men who are socially lost and feel left out, rejected. That's an experience I can easily understand. I've felt it myself. Most of these men live normal, non-violent lives and don't offend your sensitivities. Do you condemn looters and rioters who burn their neighborhoods in respond to their resentments? I'll ask you - Do you approve of their behavior? Do you respect them based on that behavior?

None. I look forward to the day that men are properly humbled by the clout of women - their intelligence, their strength and resolve - strong fierce mothers, exceptional wives, admirable daughters. Feminity has always moderated the testosterone fuelled recklessness of man. And it was always undervalued, considered weak for that fact. — Benj96

This sensitive-new-age-guy thing you've got going on is creepy. The strong, stubborn, competent women I know think it's creepy too.

Understand it, and act accordingly. I believe in hearing people out and applying reasoning to show them the result of their claims/beliefs. — Benj96

Your clear ignorance about the people you're talking about puts the lie to this.

The most manly of men, in my opinion, are those that willingly submit to the power of the feminine. — Benj96

Strong women don't want to hang around with men who "willingly submit to the power of the feminine." They recognize how disrespectful the male feminist bullshit really is. Grownup women want to hang around with grownup men.

What respect should we give misogynist and racist people? — Christoffer

That's not the question at hand here. The correct question is "What respect should we give people whose behavior we don't approve of or understand?"

When I log on in the morning I check the Bannings thread just to make sure I'm still a member. Phew.

I don't respect misogynists or those who defend them. — 180 Proof

Oh...wait... Oh!! I get it.

Thank you for the compliment! — ChatteringMonkey

God, you really have drunk that progressive kool-aid. — ChatteringMonkey

Why don't we just put them down, like the males of breeding animals we have no use for? Wouldn't that be a major step towards progressive utopia! — ChatteringMonkey

But ultimately the problem is not totally solvable by acceptable means I think, there will always be those who will miss out because they are less attractive/charismatic/rich than others. A healthy society doesn't solve the frustrated desires of those. Historically this has always been a problem. — ChatteringMonkey

society has decided that women are the victims, so it's okay to marginalize incel men... they are evil because they are man, and so technically part of the patriarchy (eventhough they have no power at all and are considered the lowest of the low). — ChatteringMonkey

Political and historical insight leavened with a little compassion. Thank you.

Because misogynists are becoming more odious and numerous and have no desire to modify their own behaviour. Under patriarchal law, they could - and in some cultures, still can - be as abusive as they want and still own a woman, or more than one. If women have a choice of mates and are free to leave bad ones, men have to make some accommodation. The ones who know how to do that make out like bunnies and the odious ones are jealous. — Vera Mont

We've recognized how most of these gender norms are, frankly, pure bullshit. Mostly formed by institutions to control society, mostly formed by the privileged to keep power. — Christoffer

In 180 Proof's utopia, we'd castrate and/or lobotomize incels. Or maybe, less invasively, heavily medicate the shits with opiods & sedatives. — 180 Proof

I'm feeling a bit queasy. That happens when I read knee-jerk, pseudo-historical, pseudo-psychological, pseudo-political claptrap hatred for men. I'll cut Vera Mont some slack - Women lacking respect for men is run-of-the-mill. When men do it, it's just pitiful.

A man without a woman is like a bully without a victim. — unenlightened

Someone, maybe here on forum, pointed out that if you ask Chat GPT to make a joke about men, it has no problem but if you ask it to tell a joke about women, you get a lecture about not being disrespectful. Now, why do you think this came to mind now?

The next day they'll all be in camps learning how not to complain. — Varnaj42

Ahem...

I don't have much substantive to offer here, but I wanted to compliment you on a well written and clear OP. You obviously put a lot of thought and effort into it.

You won't find a receptive audience for religious dogma here on the forum. Most of the members are atheists or at least non-religious. Perhaps it would help a bit if you provided a source or context for your beliefs rather than just proclaiming them as fact.

↪AntonioP Sounds like a standard libertarian, anti-governmental screed.
— Tom Storm

And this sounds like an ad hominem fallacy. — AntonioP

You clearly don't know what "ad hominem" means. Wikipedia:

Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

It's clear that @Tom Storm's comment was about your argument and not about you.

You have been so thoroughly indoctrinated — AntonioP

Now this is an ad hominem argument. Ironic.