The transporter does not need to result in a you the way you are (relatively strictly) describing it. On a PC position, you can come out, and diverge immediately (becoming "someone else"). And this does not matter. — AmadeusD
In differentiation, yes. I have explained that quite clearly too. Those aberrations don't change your sex. — AmadeusD
Humans are (in some studies) next-to-100% accurate in telling sex from facial features alone. What we need to do is trust that people will not lie about their sex. If that's a concern, then perhaps we do need testing. But that's not my position. My position is that we separate almost all private spaces by sex (for almost all of history). That is right. We should continue to do so. We understood there were bad actors before 2010 and almost every male weasling their way into a female space was promptly dealt with.
More males in female spaces is a bad idea. That's the headline. This isn't controversial. — AmadeusD
You are clearly not reading anything I have presented. THe SRY gene determines whether you are male or female. That's the end of that part of hte discussion.
During sexual differentiation your phenotype can be aberrant — AmadeusD
I've not said anything at all about a DNA test. If you could ask a non-loaded question on the back of a fairly confused response to some biologically crucial information, I would be happy to treat hte "what we should do" type questions in good faith. — AmadeusD
Hmm, I don't think it changes anything. THe transporter need not 'work' for there to be an acceptable output. PC does that, avoiding hte problem of whether it 'works' entirely. That's why its the 'best' avenue for hte vast majority of people's intuitions. — AmadeusD
That doesn't seem entirely wrong to me, it just begs the question of how could that possibly matter, if all it obtains in is a single planck-length type moment — AmadeusD
But at the moment immediately after B comes into existence, they have diverged. That's crucial, and being missed. — AmadeusD
Not does your credulity prove it. — Patterner
How many nanoseconds are needed to bring about simple death? — Patterner
They can't, as best as my knowledge goes. — AmadeusD
First, I didn't say "that you are wrong." When quoting me, kindly don't misquote me. At least not intentionally. — Patterner
What if the process requires that the original remain alive for x seconds after the duplicate materializes elsewhere, then their particles disperse? — Patterner
The person's life is lost in that nanosecond. If you disperse a person's particles, the person is dead. That does not require explanation or elaboration. It's an obvious fact. — Patterner
But once you say that a biological man can't be with females (in this case, prisons), aren't you opening the door to banning men from other female-only areas? — RogueAI
But you can see we're looking at probably 8x the number v trans women — AmadeusD
Do the have an active SRY gene? You've asked the wrong question. — AmadeusD
It is not possible to refute, because you can define it as always true, but it is incomplete. It doesn't answer who you will be after being transported or after cryonics. — SolarWind
Numerically the same body, not the same person. — hypericin
Compared to non-trans male, trans women are fully four times more likely to commit a sexual offence. — AmadeusD
But this is absolutely, objectively wrong. Every intersex person is either male or female. — AmadeusD
If you had a stroke or a TBI, what determines whether you survive in any form, or whether your old self is gone? There is no hard line. Part of you is gone, that is all. Do you think some metaphysical argument can determine this? — hypericin
To make this clearer, what I'm saying is that if you're wanting to give me a "0-0.1-0.2-0.3...1" spectrum, then you need to say at what exact point survival obtains. It cannot be part here, more there. Either the person survives at point A or not. I do not see there is another way for this to run. You simply cannot survive and not survive. — AmadeusD
I have given you ample reasons why you can partially survive, in the psychological sense. — hypericin
You think the you that's waking up tomorrow morning isn't really you? That if you go on a bender, you won't have to suffer the hangover? Someone else will? That's so obviously wrong. — RogueAI
Assume psychological continuity is correct. If on your terms, if any degree of survival counts as survival, then if Napoleon came out of the teleporter, and he had the faintest, most fleeting and occasional memory of the teleportee, well then for you that is full survival. — hypericin
Nothing in your source seems to indicate what you are saying. It is silent on the rates at which trans individuals are perpetrators of violent crime. In general, groups that are more likely to be the victims of violent crime are also more likely to be perpetrators. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Yes, The person stepping into the transporter will be 0.0 alive after the process. Their atoms were dispersed. There is no way to disperse someone's items without them dying. — Patterner
False. I have given you the reasons people are made uncomfortable. This occurs when anyone does it. [...]Anyone who approaches me as overbearing, childish and intrusive will get the same response. — AmadeusD
But here are a couple of examples anyway — AmadeusD
We then have the multitude of problematic cases of males in female prisons, and the overwhelming concentration among those trans women who are prison, of sex crimes. IN the UK a trans women is fully four times more likely to be in prison for a sex crime than a non-trans male. — AmadeusD
Sex is real, and it matters. Not sure how that became controversial. — AmadeusD
We both know there is no line.
You want to say, in the imperfect transporter, if survival is possible at all, there must be a line between survival and death, as death is surely possible given enough imperfection. There is no such line, any such line must be arbitrary. Therefore survival isn't possible.
But this is only true if survival is binary. If we think of survival in terms of a body living or dying, it is binary. If we think in terms of a soul transmigrating or not, it is binary. But if we think in terms of psychological survival (which is the only way anyone can survive a transporter) it is not. Survival in this case is a continuum between 0-1, not a binary on-off. — hypericin
What do you regard as the necessary and sufficient conditions (or properties) for being you? I suggest that this is a central issue in the transporter scenario. — Relativist
No. This is clearly bollocks. I gave you several reasons, which have nothing to do with being trans. Please stop putting words in my mouth. — AmadeusD
Right o, I'll tell that to the victims and the millions of females it makes unsafe. — AmadeusD
I think all 'being trans' is pretend in some sense: You cannot change your sex. It is utterly impossible. There is no version of 'transition' which means anything if gender is a construct/spectrum that means nothing to us as sexes (which is fine, I don't quite have an issue with tha tposition). — AmadeusD
You are yet again talking from your implicit soul perspective, where "instance of consciousness" is your word for soul. — hypericin
Assuming psychological continuity is key, you survive only to the degree that the new person's psychology resembles the old. Abraham Lincolns would not resemble it at all, so you would be completely extinguished.
Excuse me, but I don't think you understand your own question. That's not an answer. — SolarWind
Cryonics costs many thousands of dollars. You expect to see the world in a hundred years, not a copy of yourself walking around. — SolarWind
Why not expand the thread with cryonics? That's much more feasible than the transporter.
If I have myself frozen, will I wake up in a hundred years, or will it be my copy? — SolarWind
I see at least two issues:
Social responsibility:
The Relationship between the scanned data, the continuous person, and the assembled person: — Dawnstorm
"Partial" is not a dodge. I am saying that in the imperfect transporter case, the subject experiences zero bodily continuity and partial psychological continuity. Whether that constitutes (partial) survival depends on whether bodily or psychological is the relevant continuity. — hypericin
if I could freeze all neural activity in your brain and restart it, is that the same instance of consciousness?
— Mijin
Are you freezing it by freezing time? — Patterner
Your continuity ends when your particles are separated, regardless of the scenario or any considerations. — Patterner
I really don't know how I can state it more clearly. And I really don't think you don't understand what I'm saying. I think you just disagree. — Patterner
Imperfect transporter
Bodily: dead
Psychological: partial — hypericin
Is it really binary? If you have a major stroke, does all of you survive? If you have a stroke such that you completely assume the identity of Abraham Lincoln, does any of you survive? — hypericin
Am I not addressing the original problem? — Patterner