that process [being a human] has reached such complexity and sophistication that it seems to involve what we call intent, will, deliberation — ENOAH

And I agree with you here. Austin has a way of putting it that we project a self that has “intention” back into a situation, but only when it doesn’t meet our ordinary expectations (Why did you do that (in that situation)?) But it is not a question that always has an answer because I don’t have a “will” that causes my acts nor do I “mean” every word (I don’t “intend” my raised arm to be the act of signaling a taxi.)

Of course it is trustworthy; but it's not your mind. There's no your, no you. — ENOAH

And I take this to suggest we have no recourse other than to rely on (trust) the human (brain/body/responses, etc). However, with the acknowledgment of the human propensity to undermine ourselves, hide from ourselves, delude ourselves, etc., or, in other words: our inevitable limitation and failings, we are driven to want to escape the human; to have knowledge take our place—something certain we can count on (trust).

The question (which I won't take the time here) is more like, how can I ensure I am input with the coding which will yield the most functional results for that very system (which I share with all minds) and for my body and my species? — ENOAH

And this is a worthwhile question (and closer to part of @Benj96’s OP). If we realize that: to be human we must turn—as Socrates suggests in a cave, and Wittgenstein (PI #108) says around our “real need”—towards our humanity, per Nietszche (embracing what we actually can not nor should not escape) and attempt to perfect it, as rallied to by Emerson, what does that path look like? As humans? individually? (Which I believe we can take up with @Sam26 above)

there is no Mind and no Trusting… your mind moves autonomously — ENOAH

Well, yes, the brain/body does things on its own, or there are “empty code triggering reconditioned responses”. We may make a “snap judgment”, be unconscious of our reasons (even subconscious ones), even be responding to the body’s implicit biases (out of fear) (as in #5&6), or mindlessly adopting the judgments of others or society, but “our judgment” is more than a function or sense or instinct or conformity, because afterwards it is “our” decision (rather than a reaction, a prejudice, or “trigger”)—as I take you to say, “to be rash is a settlement arrived at following that dialectic” (emphasis added). But the outcome is ours; we are responsible for its failings and reasons. We can make explicit, or draw out, the evidence applied to the criteria for, say, trusting, even if it is to say, “I didn’t like the look of his face”. And we can say something was “poor judgment”, which is maybe more than it was wrong, but that it was hasty, not having considered everything, or perhaps not thought through it at all. This is not the (casual, choosing) “I” that you rightly remove from the equation, but, in a sense: me, as in: not you; not blaming something else for my claims and evaluations. It is the functioning of “judgment” that I must take ownership, with the alternative being that I try to slide out of it.

Ultimately, can I trust my mind? No, it's lying to you, it's not who you think you are. Yes, you have no choice. You are trusting your mind incessantly. — ENOAH

Yes, we are subject to our brain, our body, our culture. And to imagine we are fated to it seems a curse, but underneath that, we want it; it’s a relief. As I previously said, one way of wanting to avoid a decision being “our judgment”, is to wish to rely on knowledge. Thus “trusting your mind” turns our duty into an intellectual problem, such as: whether the outcomes are right or wrong, real or illusion, rational or emotional, etc. So if we can solve this manufactured problem—e.g., an outcome could be “known” to be right—then it would not be my judgment. Knowledge answers for it, not me. Thus our desire to “trust” in something (say, our mind) so that we can give up our continuing responsibility. Our disappointment with knowledge is because we are left holding the bag.

here is how you guys see it and here is how each of your views differs. — Benj96

Thank you for the understanding and appreciation. I should try to remember to phrase it that: “this is how I am taking what you are saying”, as what I am actually doing is a provisional paraphrase, which should be presented as the question “is this the sense in which you mean this”? but I find that most people are more than ready to respond that that’s not what they meant if clarification is needed. Unfortunately some times people don’t acknowledge any further implications of what they have said even when there is evidence and context to make the connection.

And of course I am not trying to hijack your thread to say there are not legitimate concerns about how we can anticipate ways in which our conclusions are untrustworthy or how to recognize when we are wrong. I only wanted to point out that we have recourses so the anxiety to find truth does not hinge solely on finding a way to never make a mistake.

It was, just not only in the way it wanted to be, so just be a little less judgey and bullying, yeah?

Oh… you just wanted to point out something clever? Well done you.

What point is there to it, if not to make your thoughts clear? — flannel jesus

You mean clear to you. Picture instructions are clear to everyone; do you want me to draw you a map? What words should I use? What dichotomies do you accept? Can I get you a beverage too?

yes — flannel jesus

Oh please. Get over yourself. I shouldn’t have wasted my time trying to explain philosophy to you; I’m gonna be able to convince you how you’re a jerk? Do you know what a troll is?

If you perceived me saying some post of yours read like a non sequitur to me, the point of me saying that is not rudeness or cruelty but to express that I don't understand how your reply to me makes sense given what I was saying. The correct response to that isn't for you to decide to start being cruel to me, the correct response is to either spell out why your reply does make sense, or to just disengage. — flannel jesus

Well, I guess I am (bait took!). This is exactly your problem in a nutshell. I did not “perceive” you saying that; you said it. Which is straight arrogant and rude. Still, if you don’t understand something you don’t judge it. The whole point of not understanding is not that you don’t grasp “how your reply to me makes sense given what I was saying”, but to imagine the possibility that you just do not understand what I am saying! which you skip over as if what others say is simple and easy to immediately understand, or, if it isn’t, that it should be! To be respectful, try (humbly) to make some sense of it on its own terms (not in relation to you). Ask a question to clarify a distinction, to understand terms, to develop implications; paraphrase; ask for an example; etc. My responsibility is to answer, not to make what I’m saying fit into your box. And definitely not to put up with something like this:

I really don't know what you're on about anymore. — flannel jesus

If you believe I was cruel to you first, please show me where — flannel jesus

Is cruelty the level of insult it would have to rise to? Really? Not just dismissive, mocking, superior, flippant… you’re gonna have to give me a minute. Oh wait, did you actually want to know?

just start saying rude things to me — flannel jesus

Not self-aware either! I think the start of that might be the dizzying part for you. It was me who started saying rude things? (Your miss-using “context” BTW).

why are you doing this? — flannel jesus

Because you think your way of looking at things is obvious and mine is nonsense, like the world revolves around you. Because I spent my valuable time trying to explain myself to you and you didn’t even try. Because you think I can just “tell” someone like you what it would take years of study for you to even start asking question that weren’t arrogant and mean, like: “what the hell are you talking about?”. You don’t care, go away. You’re in the deep end.

I have no idea how any of these words relate, at all, to anything I said — flannel jesus

Step away from the philosophy.

I have no idea what you're talking about at this point. — flannel jesus

You don’t have to admit it. I know.

If I may, I think he was referencing your position that we may be permitted stupidity if. . ., not you personally. — ENOAH

No, he nailed it. I made it able to be understood without needing to stretch one’s worldview.

Sorry, seemed pretty straightforward. I must have just made up that interpretation.

’instilling faith’ if achieved, is the (temporary and temporal) settlement of that dialectic, commonly called belief and confused for not being knowledge. — ENOAH

I made this confusing. When I said my determination of whether you are in earnest “instilled faith”, I did not mean faith, as in: belief, as if blindly (nor as if it were an opinion). When I am considering whether you are earnest, I am making a judgment, based on evidence (your acts and words), as to whether they meet the ordinary ways someone demonstrates earnestness (criteria, which are “autonomous”, if I understand how you meant that). So my conclusion is not “belief”, nor “a belief”—I am convinced. I do not have faith in my judgment; I have faith in you. I have now given you my trust; I treat you as genuine.

The word [earnest] has an evolved (in both each individual and History) function of triggering the movements/arrangements of other words which eventually trigger conditioned Feelings which eventually trigger actions (more mental/or physical) . — ENOAH

I would say that these “movements” and “feelings” and “actions” do not follow from the word (as if “I am earnest” were a report of something in me, and not just in the sense of a promise, though only believed as much as “I’m not lying”). Everything follows from my being convinced, my judging that you are earnest, which conclusion is “triggered” by the standards, or criteria, that we associate with earnestness—the actions and words that demonstrate you are in earnest.

All of this process seems to contain "intent" "deliberation" a "self". Hence these discussions etc. But there is no "trusting your own mind" directed by that "you". It is all just the movements of that mind — ENOAH

I would say that judging whether someone is earnest does take “deliberation”. And we are, in a sense, judging their “intent”, not as if to see in their mind, but (even stranger) to see into the future: whether they will trick us or fulfill the commitment that is made in claiming they are (will continue to be) earnest. To be taken as earnest is an expectation, and so does not involve the “self” in the sense of: a state, like dazed; or: a feeling, like sad. These are the version of “self” as in: my person. But a claim to be earnest does involve my “self” in the sense of: my character; who I am asking to be seen as, taken for, what I stake as collateral.

So we may even claim we are in earnest to ourselves, as we can make a promise to ourselves. It would seem we should know best if we intend to trick ourselves, or whether we are faking, but what is “being earnest”, or to “really mean it”, if not the further future demonstration of that commitment. It’s not never feeling like a fake or like giving up or like we were deluded at the outset, but that we continue on, try harder, follow through.

So then what is “trusting your own mind”? If it is “all just movements of [our] mind” then we are left with the fact @Benj96 started with: “Everyone can be rash, everyone can be stupid, misinformed or otherwise malpracticing adequate reason.” Which is to say, how can we trust our self? as in: our brain, our habits, our weakness, our limitations? And this is trust in the sense of: be certain of, as in: that we aren’t deluded, tricked, wrong. But perhaps all this talk of earnestness helps us to see that our relation to ourself is not one of certainty. Not that it is blind belief that everything we think is right, but a matter of loyalty, not entrusting our self—as in our character—to others, to apathy, to knowledge, abandoning our judgment, relinquishing our voice, letting our consent be assumed. We may be rash, stupid, ignorant, irrational (@flannel jesus), but it’s a start. If we are asking, as @Banno framed it, “What is true?”, in this sense, we are true to ourselves; our trust is our not giving up.

Antony Nickles yeah that just sounds like nonsense to me. — flannel jesus

Well, that might be because of the historical picture of belief as a lesser version of knowledge, but I take it as a lack of interest (not a lack of ability) as you appear to just be saying the same thing over and over (which is fine). But without anything more than that, it’s hard to know what or how to explain.

I have no idea how a guy saying he doesn't trust his own reasoning could be interpreted as "political" — flannel jesus

I’m not saying he doesn’t trust his own reasoning, I’m saying that there is more involved than “reasoning”. The “stories” he is talking about are things up for debate, and because of that, are political/moral, which are the types of things we may not be able to resolve. But we could say he is politicizing his doubt in making it a reason to hold the opinions he does, or avoid being responsible to answer for them. Basically, I’m calling this (his) BS, though I take it as a misunderstanding of the nature of fact compared to our political/moral lives. He is mixing up apples and oranges. Not being certain about our positions is not resolved by trust or doubt in science, or knowledge. It is a matter of bucking up and being responsible for what we decide to claim as our own, as these things are not a matter of certainty; they are not resolved as a claim of knowledge would be.

If he doubts his own ability to reason, and his own ability to reason leads him to think he should trust science, then OF COURSE he's going to doubt if he should trust science. Just read his words. He spells it out, I'm not speculating. He literally says he doesnt trust his own reasoning abilities. — flannel jesus

I’m not suggesting you are speculating, but this is a categorical issue—a matter of the type of reasons we use in different cases. Sometimes we “trust” an impersonal process, science; and sometimes we have to make our own way, as in a moral situation, and I am saying he is confusing the two here.

“that essentially means I have no ability to discern good science and conclusions from bad

Basically ive proven i can believe things with bad reasons and spin the story in my head.

My worry is that I’ll just keep reading things that confirm my current set of beliefs and keep taking them in as true or at least likely true and end up with a warped sense of reality.”
— quotation of 83franks by @flannel jesus

Starting with the first sentence: either they are simply wrong (I assume that we can agree that we can have/gain the skill to tell good science from bad), or they are calling that into question, which, yes, on the face of it, they attribute to an “inability to reason”. But I am claiming that they are avoiding that a political/moral decision is (despite accurate science) always about aligning ourselves with a story, a community (and here I do not mean with or against science, or the science; i.e., it is more than a matter of reason, knowledge). For example, we trust the democratic process, not because it is perfect, but because its nature is (it calls for) allegiance, or disloyalty. We either give ourselves (our country) to it, or are, as Dewey puts it, treacherous. Those are our choices in that world—“knowledge”, as in certainty, is not how it works (though the process can be corrupted and bettered). The political and moral fields are not simply a matter of knowledge (absolving us of our part in, say, the social contract), but what we are willing to be responsible for. To fixate on the possibility that we can have “bad reasons”, or “spin” or “warp” ourselves, is to desire to find something certain, impersonal, say, “reality”, that would ensure we are never bad, wrong, or lost. The desire for certainty in the moral/political realm is a fantasy that knowledge could take the place of me—the necessity of putting ourselves (trusting ourselves as I have put it) in the position of answering for our reasons and, if appropriate, for our reliance on a particular scientific finding. But he wants to “trust” science, not to be accurate, but to resolve our need to live the stories we choose to accept, which means we may be wrong (leaving us where I started, not with just belief compared to knowledge—epistemology—but with the processes of error, forgiveness, learning, etc.). But we have no recourse (other than avoidance) than to entrust ourselves with the responsibility for our opinions, stances, etc., and in this sense, to “trust” ourselves.

This thread is about trusting your own mind, trusting your own judgment, trusting your own ability to reason - the thread I linked is about a guy who says he can't trust his own ability to reason. It's entirely on point. — flannel jesus

If we aren’t going to call determining good science from bad a skill—say, that anyone competent could perform—and we take it as a matter of instilling “trust”, as in “belief”—which in philosophy is code for something we might be uncertain about, or that rests on uncertain grounds—then I would say that is politicizing epistemology. And so it is not that he doesn’t trust his (own) ability to reason, but he (secretly?) doubts the (all of our) ability to rationally be certain about our knowledge through science at all.

All I am claiming separately is that there is a distinction between the kinds of things we can be certain of, and those which may lead to an outcome that falls apart (politics, moral acts, etc.), and that philosophy sometimes wants to treat the second like the first (or relegate it to irrationality).

Ok, then is [earnestness], not in the speaker, but the receiver? The receiver interprets the committed "action" as earnest? Hence, speaker's intention is irrelevant? Where I'm currently settled is that (notwithstanding my previous "flippancy") "earnestness" is neither in the speaker (intent) nor in the receiver (interpretation) and (perhaps frustratingly to our conventional logic) it's in both. Why? Because it is imbued in the "word." — ENOAH

The other does not “interpret” earnestness, as if it were a matter of confusion or seeing correctly. Because of the way earnestness works, the other judges whether my words and actions are evidence that meet the ordinary (but usually implicit) criteria of what we count as being earnest (commitment, followthrough, not giving up, doing a “deep dive”, etc.) and acknowledges that I have made a showing of earnestness, or whether I am still faking, putting on a show, etc. So it is a rational determination, but towards instilling faith and trust. The act or word does not have an “air” of earnestness (it is not imbued in them); I make a demonstration of rising to the level that proves** (to you) that I am not inconstant, etc. (**Now of course when I say “rational”, I mean subject to discussion and settlement, but the outcome is uncertain, as it is a matter of our relationship—so perhaps I won’t be fooled again, that nothing you could do or say could make me see you as serious when you, say, still refuse to choose allegiances, etc.)

this guy's post is also an epistemological problem. — flannel jesus

Well, yes, it is a matter of knowledge, though I’m not sure it is a problem with knowledge. I wouldn’t say we have an issue with our criteria to tell good science from bad, though we might politicize its relevance. All I am claiming is that the OP is more a matter of recognizing (acknowledging) error than ensuring certainty because knowledge does fail us, and then we are left with the conduct of our discourse with each other.

Yes, I worded that poorly. Of course they are doubting their ability to decide whether the science is done well. This is different though than the kind of doubt and trust that philosophy has traditionally struggled with, and that I am claiming is a doubt of ourselves that is projected into an epistemological problem.

The guy who made the thread, somehow, came to distrust his own ability to reason and discern fact from fiction. — flannel jesus

But that is not a case of distrusting ourselves, but of not trusting science, specifically our ability to tell good science from bad. What makes a scientific conclusion a fact is not correspondence, but repeatability, that anyone could do the same experiment and reach the same answer. Science is contingent on: 1. that the experiment is done competently, and based on the scientific method, isolating the question, etc., and 2. that it is a matter that responds to such a method (science cannot answer every type of thing).

You should NOT trust your mind, but you can gain trust in certain beliefs by applying critical thinking: seek out contrary opinions, test your beliefs through discussion with others (like on this forum), attempt to mitigate confirmation bias by trying to identify objective reasons to support or deny some presumption you may have. Learn at least some basics of epistemology (including the limits of each technique). — Relativist

We of course have the ability to develop our skills of thinking things through, analyzing our opinions and assumptions, and considering other perspectives. But there is a difference between ensuring what you say is correct, and how you conduct yourself in and after saying it. So to say you should “not trust your mind” (yourself)—as I, and Emerson, argue against above—is perhaps different than saying you should not trust the opinions you have or inherited.

I can't disagree — ENOAH

And I did not mean to suggest that you were “wrong”, only to point out something overlooked generally in these cases.

I am discussing my thoughts approached at different "layers" and am poor at articulating that. — ENOAH

And this is exactly why the unfolding of discussion is important philosophically. We do state things “poorly” at times—without reflecting on all the considerations, or using language lazily (one word for another, or with a kind of “you-know-what-I’m-getting-at” vaguery), or “in-the-spirit-of” aspiration. In seeing that “meaning” is not something we put into words (or that is held only by them), or that is grasped immediately, we understand the possibility in discourse for clarification, learning, self-discovery. So I am not suggesting that we shouldn’t speak without having considered something from every angle, as if we could speak perfectly, completely. I would say that part of the goal of discussion is to give the other as much benefit as possible; not to look for the first logical error, but to develop their argument to be as “strong” as we can—as Socrates does (right before he kills it with his predetermined criteria)—to put ourselves in the other’s shoes intellectually, to consider every expression as possible of more intelligibility than on its face, or first glance. If we are able to read others and judge them by what they say (as language implies expectations, consequences, connotations, criteria for judgment), we can also, as it were, put better words in others’ mouths, make explicit those implications for them.

I still stand behind the "essence" of my thought…. I don't abandon my general thinking… to show you… [ I am ] earnest. — ENOAH

The “essence of your thought” can be pictured as a special object that you have, an “essence” apart from a gist, or crux, or point. To imagine meaning or thought are “things” that we put into words is to claim we always have ownership and control of language, which comes from the desire to be unknowable, to retain our feeling of being unique, “me”, without demonstration. And this is an occasion to explicate the ordinary workings of earnestness (rather than some imagined connection to philosophical intention). To say you did not articulate what you wanted to say is in one sense to ask to be forgiven for giving the impression of being flippant. And also, to desire to be understood, not dismissed, to ask for help in bettering ourselves. However, earnestness is not imbued into what we say, it is demonstrated; as you say, it is “shown”, by not “abandoning”. The whole nature of expression (as Wittgenstein uses it), is that it is by you (not of you), that you are expressed by what you say; so that in “standing behind” what you say, you are answerable for it. And so the testament of your earnestness is not to claim you are earnest, it is to take up what your have said, in earnest, i.e., with commitment, with resolve to get to the bottom of it, to work to articulate it better, fuller. In that spirit:

If the speaker is speaking in earnest*, who am I to judge? Why would I deny myself the opportunity to "play ball" with anyone who truly just wants to play ball? — ENOAH

I take this as a plea for leniency from criticism, as, per the analogy, before I even take the field. I think of the “denial” that Positivism determined about our ability to speak about ethics, or Kant’s setting aside our desire to understand what we find to be essential about the world, or Plato’s dissatisfaction with our ordinary understandings, all because of their requirements for knowledge before we even get underway. And also that we be allowed to “play”, speak provisionally, think creatively, outside the box of argument and conclusion even. And this open “opportunity” I also take as a call for collaboration rather than combative disagreement, as the game of discourse is always with the other, which is the possibility of the unknown, the different.

Separately:

I would "argue" there's a false bar for most, if not all words, not just earnest etc. — ENOAH

I take this as the imposed criteria philosophy creates for: appearing, thinking, being, knowing, believing, understanding, etc. But, if you would, then feel free to.

Whoops

@Banno @Benj96

If the speaker is speaking in earnest, who am I to judge? [on a litmus test]… That is, "earnest" is related to "intention" — ENOAH

The irony is that we of course would have to judge whether they are being earnest (or not). But even if we are not determining whether the content is, say, true, there are means to judge, as it were, the person. However, I would argue that there is a false bar for “earnest” or “profound” or “serious”. It sets up a picture that there is always an “intention” or meaning that we add or give our words (not to say that we cannot choose our words deliberately). If we should trust in ourselves, we absolutely do trust others (what they say and do) in the ordinary course of business. Thus why we only ask what they “intended” when something doesn’t go as we would expect (“Did you intend to insult the Queen in thanking her?”). Regularly there is no need to discuss intention or meaning or “earnestness”. What we judge is the negative, when be betray our words. Lying, joking, being under compulsion, like making a promise and not keeping it (or deciding not to keep it ahead of time), these are what we judge. Imagining we are judging whether a speaker has some internal commitment (or not), is exactly what opens the door to allow them to say something like, “I didn’t mean it”, which is to want to slide out of the consequences of our acts (if not to say, “I said the wrong thing”). People should be taken at their words, so they can be held to them as well.

I'm not convinced that the desire for a universal principal is simply the result of us wanting to shirk our responsibility or culpability. — Benj96

We do not want gravity to be a universal principal; it already is one. We want a rule about what is right to be like gravity, because then if we follow it, we could never be judged to be wrong. If a good act were like a science experiment, the results would always be the same, so it wouldn’t matter who did it.

That’s not to say shirking our duty is the only reason for wanting certainty. Cavell generalizes it as not wanting to have a voice—not be a singular limited human. Kant killed off our connection to what we find important in the world (in his terms, the thing-in-itself) because we didn’t meet his standard of certainty. But, as Wittgenstein shows, it is our interest in things that create the shared judgments and criteria that reveal what is essential to us about anything. Thus why someone like Emerson has us believe in ourselves, follow our whim, skate on the surface of “appearance”. If we recognize that we might err, we are less likely to doubt ourselves, but also not need to think of ourselves as infalible, thus able to be less dogmatic. So instead of an epistemological endeavor, we have virtues like trust, humility, openness, forgiveness, etc.

In the face of the truth of the human condition that it is possible for things to go wrong, come to a place we are lost—that our very lives might clash—we fixate that it is always a matter of “trial and error” (or appearance and reality; reason or feeling; objective or subjective) and create the fantasy of “first universal principles” to avoid our responsibility to look closer to see how we are ordinarily able to work things out, or work harder to become intelligible to each other, because we always can.

Everyone can be rash, everyone can be stupid, misinformed or otherwise malpracticing adequate reason. My question is how does one know when that is the case - ie they're chatting sh*t. And to the contrary, when they really do know what they're talking about. What is the litmus test in the realm of discourse with others which may be either just as misinformed or very much astute and correct? Is there a universal logic/reason? Or only a circumstantial one? — Benj96

This is basically the path to the slippery slope caused by the fear of skepticism, from Descartes.

“It is now some years since I detected how many were the false beliefs that I had from my earliest youth admitted as true, and how doubtful was everything I had since constructed on this basis; and from that time I was convinced that I must once for all seriously undertake to rid myself of all the opinions which I had formerly accepted, and commence to build anew from the foundation…” (First Meditation, p. 1)

The disappointment @Benj96 feels about our limitations leads to the same place as the surprise that Descartes experiences. It creates the question: “How does one know?” (“What is true?” as @Banno puts it.) Now the question is taken as: “What is the litmus test?”, but not examining this first step, as Wittgenstein says (PI 308), “commits us to a particular way of looking at the matter” which leads us to where Descartes ends up, which is: how can we be certain? (as @180 Proof says we aspire to, then admit is unattainable) Trapped in that picture, but without an answer, we resign ourselves to “confidence”, “approximations” (as philosophy puts it: “appearance”, “subjective”, “belief”).

I’m trying to point out that the reason for wanting an answer, is that we want to avoid our disappointment and surprise, to not just “know when that is the case [when we are being “rash… stupid, misinformed or otherwise malpracticing adequate reason]”, but to know it beforehand, before we speak, before we commit ourselves to error or immorality (or to even take us out of the picture altogether, substituting us with “depersonalized” knowledge, as @Benj96 suggests). This desire is how we slide from doubt to hoping knowledge will save us (from being wrong, from being human).

What we overlook is that: there are ways to fix our screw-ups, after the fact (apart from certain predictable knowledge). Our everyday remedies are why Wittgenstein is trying to get us to look at the bigger picture (PI 122)—the ordinary workings (“Grammar”) of each activity. Austin will point out that our unavoidable fallibility is why we have excuses, correction, apologies, etc.—why he focuses on how things fail rather than trying to find something perfect—which hinge more on accepting responsibility (as @BC points out), than knowledge. The continuing nature of discourse is the vehicle from our past errors to our redemption (the awareness @Max2 suggests that we may acknowledge, about ourself); not the solidity of any universal or circumstantial knowledge, logic, or reasoning.

…[an animal’s] inability for it to question its existence or purpose does not alleviate guilt on my part then I should be grateful for the food put on my table.… At what point does a human being rationalize its consumption? — Deus

But I think people's inclinations can be affected by arguments… on average, more truthful arguments receive some advantage from their truthfulness. — xorn

I have responded to a similar thread here with the short version being that a moral claim about eating an animal is the same (in the same structural category) as, e.g., looking at a human as labor. It is a matter of our position in relation to them, the way in which we value them (or not)—see them in an aspect as Wittgenstein puts it—and so not a matter of an intellectual argument (or emotional empathy), but just that my actions to another make a claim on me to account for those acts, that they reflect who I am.

And so @Deus is responding to the claim on him of an animal seen as sacrifice, to be responsible for being worthy of it. This not to justify it rationally, as if any knowledge or reasoning would convince you (as @xorn hopes for, as it might in other problems), but a stance for which he puts himself in a position to answer for. The work is to understand what we have inherited and what we take on as representative of us; to make conscious our commitments and the implications of our lives as they are.

When you draw the workings of language as: intention—words—interpretation, you insinuate that it is just my trying to read your thoughts, which you take as only known to you, so I can’t possible know what I claim to with any authority other than my skill, generosity, cooperation, etc., which I was equating to the analogous position that unsubstantiated opinion has to certain knowledge. You know your intention; I am only guessing (I have no facts to back it up with, as with my opinion). But the possibilities language has in a certain situation are limited and are proscribed by the history of human practice. Any English speaker is familiar with the version of belief when one says “I believe in God” that is different than “I belief it is raining” and so could agree with me on the senses I outlined or correct any mistakes or provide further necessities of context. Words already have a way they work in the world in certain situations, and you just apologize or promise or make a statement or a proclamation. Language does not work like names for “thought” like for objects. Intention is something you ask about only when something strange happens.

So when you say,

That's one hell of a big inference about a whole hell of a lot people you know nothing about. — Vera Mont

it is not me making a judgment about people; I am just describing how disclaiming belief works in the world. And I’ll consider a competing claim, but dismissing the entire project as impossible claiming that I’m in no position is to remove any rationality from philosophical discourse. If someone is claiming they don’t believe in God, in a certain sense they are saying there is no mystery in the world and nothing outside of (above) our power. Now, they might not want that to be the implication of it, but those are some of the things which are believed, and so some of the things which are refused in the denial.

So when I make a claim about the implications of what you are saying, I am not judging you nor trying to guess your thoughts. When you say a particular thing in a certain situation, there is only so much it can be doing, and not all of it will be what you wanted. Your words can betray you, you can be caught out by them, reveal more than you thought you would, because they work in the world, not as a reflection of your mind. So I await any response other than ‘That’s not what I meant’ or ‘That’s just how you see it’.

You were drawing out the inference you made of what I said. Your interpretation. — Vera Mont

This makes it sound like it depends on me how language works; as if it depends on you how what you said, says what it does. But the reason we can infer implications (the hidden consequences and acts of our words) is that all of it existed before us in our history. Now, you may chose what words to say in a given situation, but how they do what they do, and the implications of having said it, are not up to you. So to suggest that the implications of what you say are just my opinion, is to overlook the rationality of language, again. Now my claim may be wrong or overblown or too board, but there are ways those can be corrected because what we say is evidence, for which there are requirements or criteria for judging (through inference) what the implications are of what we say (too whom) in a given situation. In fact, I take these as the tools of philosophy.

An ‘ordinary’ context is an example that shows us, that reveals, what makes an expression what it is, why it matters, how we judge it, etc. More to the point, philosophy has a habit of starting at the opposite end from discovering that our everyday world is enough, and creates ahead of time the requirements of a context in order to force a particular solution, such as Plato’s forms being necessary because he’d only allow for certain, generalized, universality; and, imagining everything is in response to one made-up question so they all have to be “answers”.

Before every such statement [“I think there is a god." or "I believe there is a god." or "I believe in God."] there is an expressed or implied question. — Vera Mont

Well, we already established that “I think” and “I believe” are used interchangeably in the role of a hypothesis. The context that comes to mind with “I believe in God” is as an expression of trust, even if that was learned as “…[the word of] God” to tell me what to do; or as an attitude toward the world: that there is reason in what we see as chaos and mystery. Thus why “I do not believe in God” is said by those lost to the particular cause, or hopeless, maybe for anything going the way they hoped someone they trusted would do, but also by those that feel they know everything and have complete control over the world.

“I believe there is a god.” is said in the same senses but also as a response by someone confronted with the dismissal of what they take as important to them; by someone who, through the lense of knowledge, lays down the challenge/attack: “I don’t believe [ I doubt or do not know ] there is a god”. The affirmative is not the answer of a question nor a lesser version of knowledge, only unsubstantiated, but as an exasperated, shocked reaffirmation that, even if you don’t believe you will be judged one day, I conduct myself as if everyone were watching.

the statement points back to a requirement for making it. — Vera Mont

This is very good actually, I agree. And those “requirements” (or factors, conditions) I would call the context, which determines what criteria should be applied to judge what version (sense) of the expression it is. But to say every statement is an answer is to abstract from any context so much to imagine one criteria applies to all of them, like true or false. And that classic example ignores the necessity of the contexts and criteria of other things we say to meet the same values of precision, rationality and identity.

you might want to consider if there's a charitable interpretation of the original post that could resolve this apparent inconsistency. - GPT-4 — Pierre-Normand

This should be in the forum’s guidebook.

I believe this is one of those misconstructions through the substitution of similar but not interchangeable words. The words 'slippery', amorphous' and 'ever-changing' do not mean 'irrational'; nor does 'difficult' mean 'unable to be clarified'. — Vera Mont

I was drawing out the implications of what you said, which was to make language seem sketchy (characterize it as such). Part of language’s “polysemantic” nature (which @Lionino points out) is not only that different words can have the same sense (meaning), but that language can be doing/revealing multiple things. A threat can also be a promise. So what we imagine we are saying, even if we are correct, can be blind to how it is otherwise meaningful. Slippery does imply that something can’t be grasped or nailed down; thus, analogously (which is the sense in which it is used here), with respect to language, unable to be made specific, as if it is imprecise, as if language doesn’t have particular ways in which it works. Further, amorphous implies there are not distinctions (language’s shapes) to distinguish one thing from another. If these do not imply that language lacks reasons for how it works, then I have just made a mistake—though that claim would have to be accounted for—that is not a reflection on the nature of language, as if to say, that it is:

…subject to imprecise applications and interpretations. — Vera Mont

Most of the time we do fine. At times, interpretation is not even a possibility (language is not always subject to imprecision; though of course someone can always erroneously claim anything), and, even when it is, not because of an “amorphous” nature of language, but because of multiple possible contexts (which can be narrowed) or because, as I said, we speak poorly or come to judgment too hastily, etc.

[“I believe in God”, “I think there is a god”]…are …separate uses …in the same context: answering the question: "How do you regard God?" — Vera Mont

This is forcing two statements into the same requirements by dictating a question; that is not there ordinary contexts. When someone says they believe in God, it is in the context of expressing their conviction (thus a claim to community), not a claim of knowledge (believing as a hypothetical answer to a question). Sometimes both are said to be claiming God “exists” but as a conviction: God exists (is “real”) in the sense of importance, impact, centrality.

Because of the place of information in our world, I think we bring the assumption that there is always something we are going to be told, that the goal is to find some knowledge, or that argument is meant to justify a conclusion (something you are working to “understand”). But Socrates is searching, and teaching/asking you to search along with him, thus the goal is in a sense self-knowledge, explicating all our judgments and criteria and practices that we mindlessly operate under without considering. Plato makes it seem like there is a solution to the questions, but no one he questions is “wrong” about how the world works, they just don’t meet the standard he desires.

Language is slippery; difficult to handle effectively. I doubt any hard rule can apply to all the words in one language — Vera Mont

The characterization of language as irrational, unable to be clarified, etc. is only in contrast to the fantasy for certainty (“hard rule”s; mathematical). That words are sometimes interchangeable; that communication involves difficulty, laziness, manipulation, vagary, and the ultimate possibility that we may reach an impasse on the means of understanding, does not mean that language is relative or imprecise. Part of what I take philosophy to do (as does Wittgenstein, Austin etc.) is to make explicit the implications and various ways language works (in order to show intelligibility despite no predictable certainty—reference to something “objective” or being only true/false). Wittgenstein will call these “uses” or “senses”, which in his case is a defined terminology by which he means the various things that language does in various situations (context is important to sense, as @Philosophim points out).

Now, why did you change the example? — Vera Mont

Thus my setting out the various senses of belief by examples (and how “think” is used the same way at times) as: a hypothesis of knowledge, a claim of judgment, or an expression of faith (also, the expression of an opinion). Each has its own separate criteria and contexts in which they apply.

If God comes into it, it should be by way an example such as: "I think there is a god" - uncertainty leaning toward belief - "I believe there is a god" - growing conviction - and "I believe in God" - declaration of faith in a particular deity. — Vera Mont

And so here we are mixing up the criteria and context and way in which belief works differently in each sense. Knowledge is not justified true belief (Plato steered us wrong; exactly because he wanted knowledge to be certain in the face of opinion so it could have power over our interests, to avoid chaos, conflict, limbo). To say “I believe in God” in the sense of an expression is not the conclusion that starts with the other sense of belief as a hypothesis of knowledge (“I think there is a god”). They are two separate uses (senses) with different criteria in different contexts. Mixing them together is what creates the impasse of whether God “exists” (and creates that as a false goal). The criteria for proving a hypothesis of knowledge is not the same as an expression of conviction, and the conviction is not a conclusion or substitute for the claim of knowledge.

Separately, I would offer that “It’s raining” is not a claim to knowledge; it is a report of knowledge (even though you may be shown to be mistaken or lying, etc.). And, yes, part of the context of the sense of belief as a hypothesis is probably some clue or “sensory input”, but that does not change its structure, nor does that imply that belief as an expression of faith needs to include any proof, nor exclude that there are associated empirical “sensory input”, such as the feeling of awe, though this does not operate as evidence or proof.

I suggest looking at the Republic as an analogy for the human self. Also, note your thoughts and reactions in reading it, more than trying to understand anything you think he might be telling you. Good luck.

I didn’t address the ability to extrapolate because the issue is a red herring**. A computer very well may come up with a novel response, be “creative”, but a capability is not what makes us a “moral agent”. Picturing a moral act as a decision comes from the desire to have it be something we can be right about (win or lose), so we imagine a moral situation as one that simply hasn’t been solved yet, or, because of the lack of rules guiding us, that there must be a novel act (a new or further rule). But in these desires we just really want to know (beforehand) that our choices (because right, true, just, selfless, imperative, etc) will exempt us from being judged. But being moral is not a capacity, it is a relation to others, a position we take on. We call it the ability to judge, to show judgment, because it is an act of placing ourselves in relation to others. We are responsible not as a function of some “sense”, or an answer I conclude, but in being (continually) answerable for what we do (even to ourselves). Now we may grant this position in relation to us (of judge, say) to a machine (as we might anthropomorphize our judgment by animals, or the earth, or the State), however, this is the ceding of authority (which there may already be a case for with testing and valuation algorithms), but not because of anything inherent (similar or analogous) in the machine’s capabilities, because nothing about it in our own.

**At #143 in the PI, Wittgenstein discusses continuing a series of numbers based on a rule. The point is not the continuing (although it is under scrutiny) but the light it sheds on the relation between student and teacher. That the student may “come to an end” (#143), change their approach (#144) be “tempted” or “inclined” to speak or act (#143, or, notably: #217). The important part is they are prepared to react to each other (#145) because understanding is judged; claiming it is announcing a readiness to be judged (#146-154).

My point is that the 'AGI', not humans, will decide whether or not to impose on itself and abide by (some theory of) moral norms, or codes of conduct. — 180 Proof

I agree that AGI could be capable of imposing rules, norms, codes, laws, etc. on itself (as I was trying to acknowledge in bringing up the social contract, pictured as a decision). Preservation or perfection were merely examples of limits or goals we put on ourselves—I’m not claiming to understand what AGI would decide to choose. Our fear is that we do not have control over the rationale and outcomes of AGI; that, as you say, “How or why 'AGI' decides whatever it decides will be done so for its own reasons”. But that fear is a projection of the skeptical truth that all our talk of rationality and agreement on what is right can come to naught and we can be lost without knowledge of how to move forward.

My claim is that being moral (not just following rules) only comes up in a situation where we don’t know what to do and have to forge a path ahead that reflects who we will be, creates a new world or builds new relations between us. But AGI is limited to knowledge, and so, structurally, it can only decide and choose based on information already made explicit that it is told or learns. And, as I put it to @ToothyMaw here, knowledge cannot encapsulate the history of our lives together and our shared interests and judgments, and so any extrapolation from knowledge is insufficient in a truly moral situation. So the question is not whether AGI can be self-aware—they would be omnipresently “conscious” of why they were doing something—but they do not live a human life. I would say you were halfway right; they are incapable of human responsibility. Not that they wouldn’t have reasons, but that those can’t answer for their actions the same way humans must. Thus my solution to tie a person to the outcomes of any AGI process, linking accountability, but also identity to what you author, knowingly or not, much as we are bound to what we say.

I suspect we will probably have to wait for 'AGI' to decide for itself whether or not to self-impose moral norms and/or legal constraints and what kind of ethics and/or laws it may create for itself – superceding human ethics & legal theories? – if it decides it needs them in order to 'optimally function' within (or without) human civilization. — 180 Proof

I was discussing “deciding” and self-imposing norms, as you mentioned, and the difference between that picture of morality and the idea of responsibility I am suggesting.