Including one more thing

@Leontiskos @AmadeusD @Number2018 @frank @Count Timothy von Icarus @Joshs @Fire Ologist

We need a situation obviously. I’ll just throw out there what @AmadeusD and I started on, which was basically, say, adding people to a board. If criteria are different based on more details, we can add those to see necessary distinctions.

Now I’m going to brainstorm here, provisionally, so we can all help: what would be the prevailing criteria? history of leadership, subject-matter or practical experience, the ability to contribute to the board's goals (say, fundraising, lobbying), connections (political, celebrity). We may need to elaborate how judgments are made on those criteria with examples, etc., but I would think we could say (agree) the interests in those criteria are something like: having a board with decision and debate skills, knowledge, but also prominence in the community (“powerful”, influential); though, as @Fire Ologist says, take a cut at it.

Now if we are adding “lived experience” to that list (or diversity or equity, which we can shift to (not all at once), but I would be even more useless at fleshing those out easily), we might first have to ask what this is? I would think, broadly and most simply, the criteria to judge if someone has it (again, any help here): would seem to be a person having lived through something. But, in that we have all lived through something, it begs the question: lived what? “Experience” as a criteria is already being considered, so, what’s the difference? Time spent working yes, but also maybe advocating for the same issues as the board, and, perhaps, just, other things we “do” or have accomplished (and practical skills). But, if we consider it as just having passively lived through something, it might look like: having navigated a process the board is working on, or having been part of the population the board is trying to help, say, as a better AA sponser is one who is an alcoholic that is sober (is that a skill?). Other examples? (And here I am not asking to be given examples of woke arguments.)

As I said in a post above, it may have something to do with only certain types of situations (maybe it doesn’t always help), such as a board involved with constructing policies that would change things that affect how people live, and so, valuing having people that are connected with the lives they are trying to change. Maybe, apart from any particular board, prioritizing one person over another just because of what they have been through, or are part of (a community), may be similar (in some way) to the existing criteria of “having connections” (here I imagine the cynical inclusion of someone just because they are a “celebrity” in the sense of a token). But it might be like carpentry, which you can’t just tell someone how to do (sorry DIYers), so it is learned through apprenticeship. Or like an expert as a valued source of evidence; say, an attorney who gives advice, factors to consider, like risk (but not based on something as concrete as the law). I had also mentioned earlier that if you are on vacation looking for something to eat, you ask a local (they “know” their way about). Maybe we could say we would not be valuing, say, their knowledge or skill in making any decision, but perhaps something like their perspective (though I cringe, as the word seems lazy; I mean I might as well say wisdom for all the good that does), but, then, what is it about their perspective? or their ability to have perspective?

I’ll leave it there for now, but I hope I’ve demonstrated the process I’m suggesting. I don’t know anything about boards or “lived experience”, so go easy. What I would hope for next is for us to add to the criteria, fill in examples, draw out distinctions, etc., and then we can see if we’ve gotten anywhere, rather than jumping straight to fighting (or just carping) about what I’ve put out there, which is, basically, conjecture. If things need clarifying, counterexamples, go ahead; if it’s broke, fix it—I suggest first trying to get at a good overall sight of all the grounds (get it).

Mulligan

Obviously I am failing utterly to make myself understood so I would suggest that yes, we should discuss the philosophy as a side note. I would reply to all of the above but I think we just move to the meat as you say. I’ll just say I am talking about fleshing out an example, not about an examination of what is at stake for you and me, or our criteria for judging an (this) argument, or an argument about posited interests, or how to assert them. Whew. Gimme a minute.

@Fire Ologist

I was working on sketching out a situation: criteria for appointment to a board, but I will concede if there is a more interesting example. I am not an expert in these things.

@Leontiskos @Fire Ologist

This seems to rely on your underlying supposition that we(anyone making the noises we're making) don't understand enough to pass judgement. — AmadeusD

I worded this wrong obviously, as I conceded to Leontiskos; of course we can pass judgment at any point, and we must at some point. Also, I am not trying to undermine any assertions or judgments in particular (I am not arguing). I am merely suggesting that it might be helpful to look at what is at stake, how that is to be judged compared to now, etc. Not to judge the criteria (first) but as a means to see what the possibly unexamined interests are. Yes! that may have already been done! Although my (one) argument would be our society (not of course anyone here) jumps to judgment most of the time, and I only started because I thought I saw the argument framed as rational—emotional (a version of “objective”—“subjective”) which is one thing that gets in the way, philosophically, of getting at the criteria for the case at hand, thus the interests in it.

For any discussion of this kind, we need to establish what goals are on the table — AmadeusD

This would be traditional philosophy’s framing of a moral discussion as an argument over what “ought” to be done, or the justification for that, or principals, etc. I am suggesting a different discussion where we are talking about how to move forward in a situation where no one has more authority to what is right. I am suggesting that we may not see beforehand what the criteria are that we use in that scenario, and what new or different criteria would look like, as a method, a way in, to see what our interests are (as they are captured in our criteria for each thing).

I appreciate your time in responding; this got a little, philosophically, muddled. If you want, I clarified things more (I hope) in response to Fire and Leontiskos directly above. We worked a bit above on a situation that relies on “lived experience”, but I think I will give something else a chance (in response to Fire) since we didn’t seem to be getting anywhere. Thank you for your efforts and consideration.

@Leontiskos @Joshs @Number2018 @frank @AmadeusD @Janus

a category is less than, smaller than, any single individual we might put in that box. — Fire Ologist

That was a lot of argument based on principals (like the above), which I get, but is not what I was thinking of (nor trading reasons why/or why not “only those in power can be racist.”). We need a situation where the claim is, in a sense: what are we going to value and how do we do it? And then I am suggesting, before argument, we try to figure out what interest there could be in changing and in how (to judge differently). I’m not sure what the situation is where the above comes up (I think an example always helps, even if manufactured at first), and I also don’t understand the current criteria that are used to judge a person as a unique individual, and what the judgment would be for (Sometimes I don’t want someone unique, I just want a soldier.)

Forgot something

@Leontiskos @Joshs @Number2018 @frank @AmadeusD @Janus

what don’t I understand about… a key woke position - be it a whole position or just a key underlying interest, criteria, etc.? — Fire Ologist

I don’t know what you don’t understand :smile: what do you understand? (is it high noon?) And here I am not talking about a “position”, either in whole or in part, as in, the argument for, but the underlying interests, the difference in criteria, i.e., what matters and how are we to judge? (And maybe other things.)

“I think in the end you will find that we have different interests. — Fire Ologist

Different interests is fine as long as we’ve done our best to draw them out well enough. I would suggest maybe we don’t think of it as our interests, as if they were personal, because we are of course examining the judgments and criteria of our standing culture, and what interests those reflect, and then the claim that those need to change, and why that matters. I have no skin in the game, nor knowledge of either really, but I can try to imagine them. I think we need a case before we can start describing interests though, right? I started to draw out the possible interest in lived experience w @AmadeusD that I could repost unless there is a better example.

I don't think anyone judges something without understanding it at all. — Leontiskos

Yep, put too much english on that.

it does not further the rational discussion to simply call into question their understanding without providing any argument for why. — Leontiskos

I’m just trying to clear a space before the argument; I’m saying that “understanding” is not just to be clear about what they are saying (that we can understand it), but that we understand, as it were, “them”, the claim in its difference in interests, judgments, criteria. I am not “calling into question” anything (this is not a tactic), except our habit of jumping to the fight.

quote="Leontiskos;1003876"]...by "understand the woke" I meant, "understand their argument/interests/criteria/stakes/etc."…I mean, if you really don't think you are implicitly claiming that my understanding of wokeness is insufficient (and that this is why I need to improve my understanding of interests/criteria/stakes/etc.), then what's the problem?[/quote]

I’m thinking maybe there isn’t one? I started trying to discuss philosophical assumptions that lead us to misunderstand/pre-judge—miss the actual import—of a moral claim. Maybe this is just a matter of you thinking I’m defending/arguing for something I’m not, and me thinking you don’t get what I am saying. Assumptions?

But isn't it coercive to tell me what my goal is? — Leontiskos

It would be yes, that was worded poorly. Of course we have to get to a judgment about moral claims; we have to move forward, decide what to do, and on what basis.

If we thought that our interests were more alike than apart and that we were able to move forward together, then we wouldn't have judged wokeism wanting in the ways that we have. — Leontiskos

It is presumptive to assume that has not taken place, and, again, not my intention. I was only suggesting that, generally, people (and philosophers in particular) do not consider “the ways” in which they judge. Thank you for the serious consideration.

I can't quite understand how we can use [rationality] in other ways without, as you, i presume, are getting at, falling into total subjectivity…. This is a cop-out and a dismissal of that which rationality points towards: Decisions made in accordance with reason and logic. — AmadeusD

Classical philosophy was always setting a bar—ahead of time, abstracted from context or any effort on our part—for what should be considered “rational”, as you are with concerns about goals. Wittgenstein tries to point out, however, that setting the criteria for the assessment of everything is to miss that each thing has its own standards for us to judge by, e.g., scientific claims, moral claims, aesthetic claims, what makes up an apology, following a rule, pointing, understanding. Each has their own standards for inclusion as that thing, what matters to us for it, how we judge in that case. This isn’t “subjective” but specific, thus the importance of understanding all the criteria and current judgments in a moral situation.

[Valuing one person over another] is a lot worse, and less capable of a rational basis in my view. — AmadeusD

When you’re trying to decide where to eat on vacation, it helps to pick a local to ask. It is not about their claim, or “our perception of them”… (their value?). They are not going to argue with you about where to eat (it’s not about the decision), but they know their way around.

I think it's more accurate to say [trans] "needs" weren't actually an issue… the ideas… seem empirically dead wrong…. These [ideas] are all of them banal….. — AmadeusD

The needs and interests and judgments, etc., of our standing culture may be settled, but they still need to be drawn out, made explicit and intelligible (maybe even more so in being settled). Those things are not evident until we look at them. Now I am suggesting that, before we judge a moral claim, that we need to understand it from the inside; not someone’s argument, but the interests at stake, the criteria used to judge, etc. When you say “the ideas are empirically dead”, you are not only just judging the argument, but limiting the criteria to the empirical (I’m not trying to justify the unfactual, but to take into consideration more evidence of another’s interest than that of which we are certain). And we”ve given up getting at their interests entirely with “banal”.

How would you want to start this reassessment [of vaccination]? — frank

Spitballing here, but it seems the individual has an interest in whatever negatives there are in getting vaccinated. We could say a society has an interest in the expense. The pharma companies have an interest in continuing the status quo? Then there’s the interest of society to avoid the effects if it allows for individuals to choose not to get vaccinated.

Does that sound fair? What would be the criteria each would use to decide? Individual liberty, economics, influence on contracts?, the common good…

@Number2018 @Joshs @Count Timothy von Icarus @Fire Ologist

It seems that a fundamental disagreement here is over the question of whether humans are capable of bad ideas. — Leontiskos

What I am suggesting is that we do not, as yet, understand the underlying interests, needs, judgments, and criteria, and that that is important before we judge what to do (or whatever “idea” represents here) or even before we agree or disagree on those interests, etc., before we have them fleshed out. I am not suggesting we naively attribute the most altruistic interests, just ones that take the claim seriously. Now do our interests ultimately conflict? Sure, but at least we now understand each others terms and so our disagreement is, in that sense, rational as in: explicit, intelligible—not talking past each other.

For example, people often dismiss or try to solve skepticism, but Wittgenstein investigated why we do go there, and, attributing real concerns to it, found a truth hidden there, though it is easy to immediately judge it as a mistake, or wrong, or silly, or “bad”.

To say that someone is skipping something is to imply that they should do it. — Leontiskos

Yes, I am saying we should, while I do acknowledge all the ways in which it fails through no fault of our own, and understand that it is ultimately a decision and there may very well be other considerations to not do what I am suggesting, but I am only asking we consider the ways we get in our own way, especially philosophically.

When I say that wokeness is irrational what I mean is that wokeness is reliant upon clear falsehoods. I don't mean that wokeness is incompatible with my own personal set of criteria. Indeed, "irrational" does not mean, "incompatible with some arbitrary set of criteria," which is why such a word is being used. — Leontiskos

Well, Kant sets out and requires a certain standard for what he considers “rational”, and precludes any other criteria (as does Wittgenstein in the Tractatus, leading to his silence; as Plato excludes poetry); that exclusion is what I am saying is what philosophy sometimes labels as “irrational”. I am arguing that label and exclusion come before looking into the underlying interests. Now I see you are using “irrational” as in a person’s actions are contradictory, hypocritical, that we have grounds to dismiss their argument (not factually correct @Amadeus), etc., but, again, I am saying we have work to do apart and before that judgment about their claim.

when you think of someone who is "woke" you are thinking of someone who is rational but misunderstood. — Leontiskos

Setting aside “rational”—let’s call it: possible of being serious about their interests and capable of having those be intelligible, explicit—I am not saying their argument is better, say, if we could only understand it (if it were expressed better, more “rationally” etc.) I’m saying that we are not yet aware of those interests, before jumping into the argument. I take this as needed on both “sides” of our culture as it stands as well as those of the moral claim.

What if someone holds that we shouldn't adhere to systems which are reliant upon clear falsehoods, even if there is a great deal at stake? What if someone holds that the end doesn't justify the means? — Leontiskos

All legitimate concerns; but these are discussions about deciding what to do, and the reasons for them. All I’m saying is this is an abstract discussion without knowing what the interests and criteria are of our current ”systems”, what matters about this “reliance”, what IS at stake?

I don't see that the critique of wokeness depends on what is at stake, and therefore it is not clear why one would need to do a deep dive into the "stakes" before dismissing wokeness — Leontiskos

One does not need to; dismissing something is the easiest thing. Just look at how some of the philosophy here is done: find a weakness, throw out the rest, don’t learn a thing. I would just say we (all of us) can and should do better. I realize this is an argument for ethics, but, philosophically, the stratification of rational—emotional is where I started here.

everyone who judges something understands it (to one extent or another). — Leontiskos

I’m tripped up on “to one extent or another”. Isn’t it the easiest thing to judge something without understanding it (even at all)? I, mean, isn’t there a scale of understanding? presumption, prejudgment, prejudice, jumping to a conclusion, on and on, etc.?

Why do you assume that those who judge the woke do not understand them? — Leontiskos

All I was trying to point out is that we should not dismiss a claim before understanding, not the argument, but what is at stake, what the interests are, what are the actual/proposed criteria, the shared and new judgments, etc. I’m just trying to draw attention to how and maybe why everyone misses that step.

So I must pose the question: …you think that your own understanding is sufficient for that judgment. — Leontiskos

I need to split a hair. I am not making a claim about “wokeness” as if to argue against your judgment of it, that it is “mistaken”, say, claiming that you don’t yet have justification (grounds), evidence. I am asking us to stop the judgment, turn, and draw out the terms and criteria., etc. To look at our history, to attempt to see something perhaps overlooked in or by our current culture, etc.

If I wanted to reverse roles and take up your own methodology I would simply say, "You must understand the anti-woke before you judge them," thus implying that your judgment is premature. — Leontiskos

But I absolutely agree with that; we must understand all interests, our current criteria and the reasons they show us about the judgments we currently make, etc. I am not saying I understand those concerns nor am I judging the arguments, nor the people.

How will we know when our understanding is sufficient for judgment? — Leontiskos

Well, good question. I would argue that our goal is not “judgment”. In a moral situation like this, it comes down to whether we see that our (once drawn out) interests are more alike than apart, that we are able to move forward together, extend or adapt our criteria, reconsider our codified judgments, etc. Obviously the feeling here is that all went out the window through politics, moral bullying, etc. but the promise of justice is only ever good-enough.

@Number2018 @Leontiskos @Joshs @Count Timothy von Icarus

Sounds like you are saying fruitful discussion needs to first level set the playing field. Bring all the assumptions to the surface. Or that there is a pre-discussion about “unknown interests and different criteria” and “the terms on which to take it.”… Is that something like what you mean? — Fire Ologist

Yes, thank you. Wittgenstein will talk about investigating our criteria for judgment to get at our “real need” (PI #108), our underlying interests. This can look like destruction, as Nietzsche’s work is taken, of “all that is great and important… As it were all the buildings, leaving behind only bits of stone and rubble.… we are clearing up the ground of language on which they stand. (PI #108 my emphasis)—Note: here he is looking at language, as it encapsulates our criteria, as a method (OLP) of seeing those interests—I take this as “level set[ting] the playing field”, to get at the actual stones and rubble of the situation before deciding what to do.

That sounds right, but would also require good-faith. — Fire Ologist

Yes, tough ask. All I can say is I am claiming that is our job, as philosophers, as citizens, is to bring about Plato’s city of words, to work to make the concerns of others and those of our existing culture intelligible, explicit. The gist of all this for me may be: we do not decide what rational discourse is, we create it, make it happen.

We have to assume good-will in a person even like Trump — Fire Ologist

Just to say again, I am not saying we are judging people, nor “judging” their expressions. I am suggesting we do not yet (have not done the work to) understand the grounds on which to have a discussion. That is to say, we have to give the claims of the other the good-will of a person whose expressions reflect what matters to them (and in this sense, rational, for reasons). Our first impression is to skip to judging what we assume those are without, as I have said, making the strongest case for what those interests could be. And, as you say, a politician is representative of our society, our culture, and so it is even more important to look past (judging) the individual, and also a different opportunity to draw out our culture’s terms of judgment and interests.

isn't it simply an equivocation to say that ignoring X and being asleep to X are the same thing? — Leontiskos

Yes it would be (a little sloppy of me). I think the distinction is that our culture may not be taking into consideration other interests (asleep to them), but “ignoring” them is part of how we address them, treating them as irrational, emotional, etc. without drawing them out, getting a clear picture of the grounds before judging them.

Isn't it confusing precisely because it involves lying to ourselves? Because it involves treating someone who we believe to be unserious as if they were serious? — Leontiskos

I get you, but I take it as the gig, as a philosopher. There is other work to do: political discussion, discussion of facts, policy decisions, etc. And, again, I would shift it to taking the claim as if it were made by a human whose serious interests we might not yet understand.

I think that if you try to develop these ideas you will find that they break down rather quickly. — Leontiskos

Well, I’m not the best person to create examples (which I would take corrections to, or others), but I stand by the validity of the philosophy.

Specifically, you think that to judge someone to be a racist is to misunderstand, failing recognizing that one is complicit in the systemic structures that caused their racism. — Leontiskos

I’m suggesting setting aside judging whether a person is racist (on any terms) in lieu of unearthing the interests and terms of our language and culture and our relationship to them and our responsibility for them.

Woke doesn’t clarify what their virtues are... End of discussion. Before any discussion starts. — Fire Ologist

And I am admonishing that clarifying the underlying interests is a process that is being skipped and is possible.

That is the problem with wokeism to me - its inability and unwillingness to debate and address reasonable challenge. ( — Fire Ologist

I am pointing out we start arguing what to do before we understand what is at stake.

The question is not whether we can but whether we should — Leontiskos

And that is a legitimate question. If I can take it down a notch, what I am trying to address is the judgment I’ve seen that these moral claims are irrational, emotional, personal, etc. to point out that it is possible to get at the so far unexamined interests and different criteria, apart from judging the means or even judging what we are told on its face (on our terms, or, abstractly), as we do not yet understand the terms on which to take it.

@Number2018 @Fire Ologist @frank @Count Timothy von Icarus

Sure, but do you generally repudiate people who are sleeping or who are unaware? — Leontiskos

First, denial and refusal are obviously not the first steps I am advocating for. But, as I say above (hopefully better) there is a part of a moral claim that is structurally about acceptance or denial; if we have a person in pain, we don’t reach a point we “know” their pain, but we look past judging their pain to see them as having serious needs and concerns (or reject them). Wittgenstein calls this seeing an aspect, accepting them as a person in pain (or we ignore it—are asleep to those deeper concerns).

This is going to sound strange, as I’ve just said we need to see someone “as a person” in developing their terms of importance, but I also don’t think this is about judging individuals, just accepting or rejecting them. What I am talking about is humanizing (as in respecting)the claim as if it is made by a serious person. So that is confusing, but really what we are talking about are the integrated terms and judgments of our culture, as the criteria we have for our practices codify our society’s interests. This is why judging someone as a racist is to philosophically misunderstand that we share a language and culture; are complicit in its interests and judgments (comprised of it and so compromised by it), and, yes, in that way, responsible for it, but this is structural, not personal, perhaps the point of seeing it as “institutionalized”.

I think the problem is that the interests and needs of young trans people was created by woke culture. — frank

And then what are the interests of trans youth? What are our parental interests in them? Support appears to be a need; what that is to look like may be, as you say, a matter of knowledge (which is a different debate than an investigation of the judgments society historically made and what interests they overlooked).

I don’t have answers to your questions, but I would agree that cultural reassessment comes with costs, as does the time before it.

Do you think of support for trans youths as something that was previously overlooked? — frank

I’m not sure anyone imagined trans as anything but a funny preference adult men had (Bossom Buddies?), and that it had something to do with wearing women’s clothes and padding a bra, so I’d say no, the interests and needs of young trans wasn’t in the cultural awareness

How is all of that unaware and asleep, at least how is that any more unaware than thewoke” person who thinks America will always be here for the immigrants of the world seeking to better their lives. — Fire Ologist

But this is different in that we have a known issue, a clear view of the interests, and are just debating what to do. And yes, we do need to also conduct such a discussion ethically as I have suggested, but I don’t take the description to be about your reasoning, as if you are unaware as in uninformed. I think it is just a different kind of moral issue when our culture is overlooking something, like we wouldn’t recognize it (not even have the opportunity to be interested in it) analogous to when we don’t have the words (nobody in California cares whether rain is spitting, misting, pouring, sheeting, dumping, etc.—just: it’s raining! as in, not a drought).

@Number2018 @NOS4A2

So if the wokist is an activist, then their activity is not aimed at rational persuasion. What follows is that to try to agree or disagree with an activist is a category error. — Leontiskos

I knew this was going to get sticky. I am not arguing for activism as a means of persuasion, nor am I even arguing that activists deserve a discussion; only that, despite all that, we can make their interests intelligible (before agreeing/disagreeing to them), even if only by imagining them (as, analogously, we can read people)—as we might with someone blowing up beer cans. To claim we cannot—to judge the other as “irrational” or otherwise dismiss intelligibility—is, categorically, a decision we make, rather than an impossibility (as with lions, which I get into here).

The repudiatory nature of wokeness is inconsistent with the metaphor of waking from slumber. — Leontiskos

Again, without having any actual knowledge of what “woke” is, couldn’t our current culture—our interests in the judgments we share, what matters, even what is rational—be asleep, as in unaware, of the world as it is, the overlooked importance of others’ interests, say, other’s pain, as with Wittgenstein’s recognizing an aspect of something (or not, being blind to it; in one way, because we want them to meet our criteria, to “know” their pain, PI p. 223).

Descartes will ask if we can be aware that we are dreaming in much the same way we recognize others as not automatons (in just seeing hats and coats moving past a window). “We judge that they are [people].” 1st Med. p. 8 (my emphasis). It takes an effort to see someone as a person, as someone different than me, perhaps with competing interests, different measures of importance. In being asleep, perhaps we are not making that effort, perhaps in only looking for, or considering as valid criteria, hats and coats.

Or maybe we are lulled into sleep, staring at Plato’s shadows, trapped in Rousseau’s chains, not seeing Thoreau’s dawn because it is midday. If we are to wake, or judge that we are awake, we would have to become aware of what we had overlooked, say, that black people were being killed by police for reasons claimed to be unexamined, not yet deemed to matter. We may need to reconsider our criteria for judgment, say, of how we value (evaluate) people (though I’m sure someone else could come up with better examples).

Philosophically this first looks like turning back, reflecting on our current criteria that have been unexamined, fallen into presumption; to “remember” them Plato says; draw them out explicitly, their assumptions, implications, etc. I would think it’s not hard to accept that, at times, we have not, and need to, question our culture, our slumbering conformity to it, to give it life and incorporate new situations, overlooked concerns, say, the interests of “strange people” as Wittgenstein says, which I discussed is possible here and here.

@Joshs @Leontiskos @Fire Ologist @Number2018

I would never dismiss anyone’s beliefs and concerns so long as he was talking about them. But activism is not conversation. It is anti-social, ill mannered, and unethical behavior, in my view, no matter the intent, no matter the politics. I would likely dismiss it and ignore it. — NOS4A2

This is going to be tricky so grant me some leeway (if I haven’t asked enough for philosophers not to jump to judgment). I’ll caveat that no one wants discourse to break down into, say, worst case, violence, and this also will not be a justification of what I’ll just call poor manners. However, to take the extreme example, although violence is unintelligible on its face, we can—only in that it is possible to—discover interests that we may not recognize as our culture stands (even if we have to imagine those for others). Just to say that seeing what is important to the other may not be given to us, handed to us on our terms. We may not first understand how to see their interests, but that does not preclude us methodologically, epistemically.

@Joshs @Number2018

But then there is also the disparagement of custom that is so obvious in thinkers like J.S. Mill, which has become almost a heroic virtue in contemporary society. It's a sort of trope of modern hero narratives that the heroic protagonist has no time for custom and "paves their own way." — Count Timothy von Icarus

I want to say that the precursor is the undervaluation of the conservative instinct, or the status quo, or tradition (or whatever else one wants to call it). — Leontiskos

A breath of fresh air to have actual political philosophy come up (even if peripherally). Mill, Emerson, and Rousseau (even Nietzsche, more controversially) all define the political as a relationship between the individual and our culture. Emerson will say we at times need to be “adverse” to it, Rousseau that we withhold our consent to the social contract. What gets overlooked in the push back and distance is that we push from our current practices and judgments; our new claims are intelligible in relation to our present culture. Wittgenstein will discuss this as extending a series. A moral claim is in an area we are at a loss as to how to continue, and I argue that we do not yet understand the criteria and interests for moving forward, but where we go is structurally tied to our history (despite my call to see the other on their terms). Nietzsche criticizes the stasis and implementation of deontology, but he does not abandon norms and morals, only pointing out their death and bringing life to them, that they exist in time, subject to our revision.

I do not (almost ever) see rejections of calls for parity, equity, inclusion etc.. on emotional grounds. I see the reverse constantly, in the face of rational argumentation. — AmadeusD

Another rejection is in limiting what counts as “rational” “argumentation”. Wittgenstein points out that there is not one standard but that each practice has different criteria for what counts, with a discussion of norms different from a point at which there is no given authority for the determination of what is right, different from a political debate, etc.

There is no way to value an opinion over another outside of actual expertise, as you then go on to outline. A "legal opinion" is not a personal opinion. — AmadeusD

I don’t think it is valuing one opinion over another, but valuing one person over another. We are not at this point judging their evidence in the decision but their value at the table. However, to call what someone says an “opinion” is to miss that we do have criteria for judging what is said based on the situation, type of decision. etc.; and calling (just some?) opinions “personal” is to imagine the world of rational discourse (already) exists apart from our efforts in making it so.

It is almost entirely impossible to give a reasonable, helpful account of something one lived through — AmadeusD

It is not the account of their lives that is valuable, it is their having lived in the context, been affected by the current criteria/practices, etc.

@Number2018@Joshs@Leontiskos

which are routinely not taken seriously on expressly moral grounds. Again, i'm not saying anything moral about the two possible outcomes, but I'm trying to show that most 'moral' positions cannot be made to be sensible to others who don't intuitively get the point of the moral claim being made. — AmadeusD

The former concept (i.e policy considerations, or instantiating social norms) doesn't seem to accept this type of assessment without falling into totally irrational nonsense in fairly short-order. — AmadeusD

Thus the importance, which I discussed above here and here, of our making the other’s claim as intelligible as possible by getting at their interest in it on their terms (getting at why different criteria are important). The responsibility to make that effort is each of our duty as moral agents, as citizens of a democracy, even the work of philosophy. Merely having a reason to dismiss the other, even on “moral grounds”, because you don’t believe they are “rational”, don’t meet your requirement for justification, etc. is to shirk that responsibility.

The legitimate concerns underlying the urges of woke political correctness will need to be addressed if any real cultural progress is to become of these urges, but the manner by which the proponents of wokeness have been trying to cause progress has allowed their passions and emotions to over-power rational assessments and discussions. — Fire Ologist

I agree with this need to go deeper; I would only suggest that we have not drawn out and made explicit for consideration these “urges” (I would say taking them as “legitimate” would be to treat them as the concern of a serious, intelligible person; not just a feeling, or fleeting desire). The fact that they are “underlying” is because we have not yet made the effort to look past our own criteria and (perhaps also unexamined) interests to see theirs, treat them with the respect of being able to be different but equally able to be considered once understood. In this way, they are unexamined, still hidden by our current practices, culture, language, and, philosophically, because of our desire for only certain kinds of (criteria for) “rationality” (generality, abstraction, etc.)

To even get to where we can decide what to do, what we have to “address” is that we do not yet understand, or even recognize, these concerns, their interest in them, how they are important to them (make explicit the criteria that would matter), and that claiming they are irrational is judging them before this work, and dismissing them because of the worst case, bad actors, resorting to force over the equal duty to answer for themselves, choosing “coercion” as you say, over a persuasive description, etc. is to despair of a rational society and forego our duty to it. Ergo:

The point is that I am not sure if philosophy matters a great deal in this struggle. It is political more than philosophical, and a matter of mobilization and counter-mobilization of resources of power. — Tobias

[Irrationality is] the inability to legitimize one's moral positions to others. — AmadeusD

This is to put the responsibility on them to meet our (society’s) requirements and criteria, when the whole point is that those are what are up for discussion because of interests and reasons we do not yet understand (and fear, belittle, dismiss, claim are irrational, destructive, etc.) or even made explicit; as you say, without which we can’t even get started “I have no place to judge it that way”.

Now, as I have said, doing a poor job in presenting the claim, refusing as well to explain the interests in changing criteria or practices, engaging in moralizing, power struggles, “coercion”over etc., is of course equally detrimental, thus why we may even have to imagine for them, take them as someone with serious, important interests not currently recognized in our society. If we grasp at something like this with our terms for judgment, we only see what we want.

We do not accept that 'lived experience' is a good metric for an accurate appraisal of anything — AmadeusD

"valuing" opinions is insane, on a policy level, unless we're talking expertise. Life Experience is not expertise, in any sense, to my mind. Maybe there's a disconnect there. — AmadeusD

It is not a matter of being a metric (a criteria for accuracy—which is judged differently), but an expert as a valued source of evidence of what matters, perspective on our current criteria. An attorney is an expert, but only gives us advice, suggested criteria (factors to judge on, like risk). You can still decide to do whatever you want based on whatever you feel is important (like “accuracy”). I believe the claim is that in certain situations (as I discussed), it matters to have input from someone who has lived through something. It is a claim for us to re-evaluate our interests, what we consider important (not definitive) in a decision.

Morality can be rational, but there is absolutely no non-telelogical way to make it 'legitimate' — AmadeusD

What I meant was that an individual can make a moral claim that is legitimate, in the sense of intelligible, able to be defended, worthy of being taken seriously as a claim on us, not in the sense of legitimized, as if justified, simply by them making it.

I think you may be using “irrational” as in something like unpredictable, but also claim reasons are “irrational” when maybe they are just not understood.

If you then say "lived experience is the only true source of information one can rely on" — AmadeusD

I think we might be able to do better in drawing out the interests of relying on someone having lived through something. Perhaps part of it is like carpentry, which you can’t just tell someone how to do (well, sorry DIYers), so it is learned through apprenticeship. And it may have something to do with only certain types of situations (it couldn’t always help), such as constructing policies that would change things that affect how people live, as it were, not deciding abstracted from all the aspects of a life. As I said above “Valuing that someone is representative does mean that not every person’s evidence will carry the same weight as just anyone else. This is a hard pill to swallow for someone that believes one earmark of rationality is that it should be the same for all of us.” Analogously, everyone can have an opinion, but there are actual reasons we prioritize their value.

intersubjective norms of rational discourse yield to the immediacy of subjective experience — Number2018

If we are going to call these both means of discourse, they are not competing, opposing methods, as if, for power, or at the expense of the other. They are categorically different, with their own ways they work, separate, specific criteria, and different contexts. Norms and practices form our lines of judgment, terms of valuation. They set the criteria we are familiar with including what is right and wrong. I understand the philosophical objections to “subjective experience”, but I think this is a straw man misconstruing our necessary part in the moral area where we are all at a loss what to do, how to decide what is right—when our norms and practices no longer apply (say, to a novel situation; maybe something until now unseen). Then we move forward based on what we (each, all) are willing to stand for (be responsible for, inteligible to), we further or change our practices, we modify our criteria to reflect our new interests in an unknown landscape. This is not something we feel (or believe), but the actual extending or pushing back against conformity to our standing society. I can understand objecting to specific claims (and of course tactics), but to deny individual moral authority at all, to argue it is without legitimacy or rationality, is either a philosophical misunderstanding or maybe the rationalization of a fear of how democracy actually works.

@Joshs@Leontiskos@frank@Tom Storm

it is likely that her testimony derived its power from the emotional credibility and perceived sincerity with which it was delivered. Despite the absence of physical evidence or eyewitness corroboration, her visible fear, trembling voice, and hesitant speech were interpreted by many as signs of epistemic and moral authority — Number2018

Obviously the criteria for judging the credibility of a witness can come off at first glance as…. vague, inconclusive; but, if we think about it, there are actual things that are important to us in (correctly, doing a good job of) judging whether someone is believable, and that they are not, say, just making a show of emotion. We can decide someone is faking it (an emotion, a ruse), We can judge whether someone is playing for sympathy. We might realize we were being charmed and that, in the cold light of day, they were trying to pull a fast one, etc. (thus feeling “betrayed” when someone does get away with it; the amazement at having a “poker” face).

I take you to be claiming that someone being upset shouldn’t convince us of anything; sure, granted. But being upset is not always just an expression of emotion, as if detached from someone, their larger situation, the result of a history, evidence of important concerns.

Only attributing “power” to expressions of emotion denies the intelligibility of a person for whom they would be a serious matter (even our duty to imagine it). We judge whether a witness is sincere and believable in order to decide whether to trust their word, not just treat it like another opinion.

To be clear, I do not question the sincerity of Dr. Ford’s account or the possible significance of her experience. — Number2018

I would offer that the powerful thing for people was not that she was upset, but that testimony (from, as you concede, an otherwise credible witness) of an assault was not going to seem to matter in confirming someone to the Supreme Court.

Consequently, efforts to critically assess or scrutinize Ford’s claims were often interpreted as acts of misogyny or trauma denial. — Number2018

Well we have practices for impeaching a witness, attacking their credibility, say, providing evidence contradicting their testimony, but sometimes this is (done poorly) just slander. Some will say that the desire for abstract reason is a form of violence (Heidegger? someone French?). I would merely say it is not everywhere appropriate.

@Joshs @Leontiskos @Tom Storm @frank

I do not attempt to re-inscribe a metaphysical binary between reason and emotion — Number2018

You may be wishing to qualify your argument with the above somehow (it’s not “emotion” but power), but a variation of this is happening on multiple levels. I would offer that it avoids making the actual interests, or does not allow them to be, intelligible on their terms. Case in point:

emotional experience and perceived marginality are not retained within rigorous ontological framing. — Number2018

What we are witnessing today is not the philosophical deconstruction of rationalism, but a normative inversion in the public sphere. — Number2018

I take this as guessing that these claims do not attack rationality on its terms, but rather pull the ground out from under it, which I would again argue is only to understand rationality a certain (impersonal) way, assuming that those claims are not expressions of any serious interests. You have judged certain methods to be illegitimate, but I am suggesting we set that determination aside to first understand the concerns themselves (as reflected in the desired criteria). I take one interest to be the acknowledgement that (among other things) our shared terms of judgment make us unaware of certain (various) concerns, and thus unaware of what the unexamined conditions, criteria, consequences, and recourses are currently in place surrounding and affecting those concerns.

escape the dominant power formations. — Number2018

this doctrine of knowledge that literally pushed [Foucault] towards the discovery of a new domain, which would become that of power. — Number2018

The characterization of a claim only as a desire for power again overlooks any underlying interests. Characterizing the claim as “escaping” to a “new domain” is denying the possibility of making those interests intelligible to us, relegating power (or persuasion) as the only option (giving up on actually getting to the bottom of them). And having an interest in adding to, or changing, the “dominant formations” of our practices, our judgments, does not necessitate that the only means are power (unless violence is the only avenue allowed).

I take the claim that “identity” be elevated to an important consideration, is to want the valuation of the human (but not just an individual, or an accounting of its exclusion, to be a necessary part of this type of claim, not just an abstract argument about what should be the case. I would think the initial interest in “power” would merely be to have what is important in these situations be made explicit and accepted; to be allowed to make claims and provide evidence in a discussion of a situation where and when no one has more authority to know or decide what is right.

legitimacy, moral authority, and social control now flow through different channels. — Number2018

It seems like what these are should under consideration. I have suggested that perhaps these claims and those making them have been historically not considered “legitimate” (that we were asleep to them as to people with important concerns), that we have not given them the opportunity to matter to us, not given these issues the importance, say, to impact our society, our practices, our judgments.

practice is subordinated to representation — Number2018

reconfiguration of power through identity — Number2018

expressions of marginalization have begun to function as sufficient sources of epistemic and moral authority. — Number2018

So it appears you are claiming that representation, identity, and marginalization are the interests that are being asked to be criteria for our judgments about… what exactly? (I would venture maybe what we should reconsider of our current practices, the assumptions, what is being ignored, how we attribute value, the basis for response, etc.) Apart from even having that correct, the question is whether these are the most generous, accurate descriptions of the interests taken as seriously as possible.

I’m not sure what these would look like as criteria, but assuming representation is someone being a representative of a certain group, that implies that the interest is that the response should not be decided outside of all the aspects of a life.

they assert themselves as affective self-reference of truth and moral authority, becoming resistant to questioning, nuance, or deliberate reflection. — Number2018

Valuing that someone is representative does mean that not every person’s evidence will carry the same weight as just anyone else. This is a hard pill to swallow for someone that believes one earmark of rationality is that it should be the same for all of us. Here, “questioning” perhaps becomes doubting the importance of their life as a practice; bringing up “nuance” and “reflection” is maybe to suggest we don’t trust that the foundation of their testimony is, ultimately, them (that at a point we become powerless; that rationality at times must cede to other criteria).

If we are interested in identity as an issue, I would think it would be the desire to have control over who I am (how I am to be defined). Marx, Emerson, Nietzsche, Rousseau, etc. would point out that we are already defined, by outside means or conformity to culture or the terms of society, and suggest ways we could assert ourselves. Now even if we don’t believe that we are someone, inherently, we might still appreciate that some of us are unfairly unable to assert ourselves at all. The desire not to be marginalized seems pretty clear; not to be systematically ignored, sidelined, not allowed a voice, or not shown respect, etc.

establishing a cultural norm where a testimony of harm received moral and epistemic authority… the status of the primary epistemic standard. — Number2018

My expression of pain is the best case for our knowing pain (to the extent pain is related to knowledge). Wittgenstein will point out that you can just as equally know my pain in the same way. But I am the only one able (with the authority) to “express” my pain (in that I own the responsibility for that), but the standard to judge its authenticity is just as much yours, thus the possibility to judge the “credibility” of a witness. The thing is that knowledge is not our only relation to pain; when I say “I know you are in pain”, the way it works is that I am accepting (or rejecting) you as a person in pain, the claim your pain makes on me—to take you seriously. Perhaps the interest here is to point out that some testimony is being dismissed because of the inability to see (or trust) the witness as a person, as in: one who it is important to listen to to begin with. Perhaps because we’d rather deny its authenticity than reconcile that amount of pain to a person, I don’t know.

moral claims based solely on feeling hurt or offended. — Number2018

Well this seems impossible to avoid now; the expression of pain (writhing on the ground), solely, by itself, makes a claim on us, to respond. Now, as part of how it works, we can ignore someone’s pain, ignore them, for any number of reasons. We can refuse it as a claim on me to do anything. Perhaps we are scared to, or resent being forced to, accept the claim someone else’s pain makes on us.

this phenomenon likely calls for a deeper philosophical framework to better understand the contemporary affective landscape. — Number2018

I take this as the fundamental misunderstanding, placing rationality as the sole resource. This is not a matter of understanding through philosophy, but (maybe even philosophically) realizing that the job is understanding people and their interests better.

Scrub

I realized that you actually have done some work in coming up with some theories about what is important in judging these claims (whatever they actually are). Wittgenstein found that the criteria we use to judge a thing, reflect our interests in it. So all we have to do is look at the criteria you are telling us are used, to get at what you think their interests are.

There is an epistemic shift in the grounds of justification, so that the conventional norms of rational discourse yield to the immediacy of subjective experience. — Number2018

irreversible transformation of the autonomous, rational subject of liberalism into a digitized, emotive, and aestheticized form of subjectivity. — Number2018

But this seems to fall into very, very old frameworks of reason vs. emotion, or abstract vs individual, which are as old as philosophy. We demand rationality and view anything else as personal, but our requirement to only allow abstract reason is what blinds us from seeing any other criteria as rational at all, including that some claims require consideration of individuals, their pain. Setting that aside, there are still some attempts to guess at the desire of this claim.

So, emotional authenticity has been elevated to the status of epistemic foundation of identity politics and online discourse. — Number2018

Isn’t this just to acknowledge that how someone feels is important in these kinds of claims, but then dismiss it out of hand before understanding why? You add “authenticity” but I think you mean the demonstrative, performative display (or outrage on behalf of others), but I would point out again that the possibility of playing up our emotions does not get at how they matter here.

struggle between oppressing and oppressed groups — Number2018

Taking a smaller step than this very tidy number of generalizations, I would think we could agree that one concern is suffering. I take you to postulate that the claim is for retribution against those that caused the suffering, and I’m sure there is that. I think, however, the more fundamental claim is the desire to be seen as, treated as, an ordinary person** (otherwise like anyone else) whose pain has so far gone unnoticed (and, yes, perhaps dismissed, undervalued, etc.) With this, it is now easier to see that: just “being seen”, in the sense of popular, is simply the superficial version of that larger claim.

**the marking of the just and unjust is a matter of moralizing, as is any demand powerless to make you accept any part of these claims (after actually getting to the real need here). You would, as it were, have to see this for yourself for it to have any weight.

prioritizing a collective identity over personal freedom. — Number2018

I do think that part of this is about having power, and that there is a corrupted version of that as well, but, again, I take it there is a more serious claim to accept, which may be: there is no power to avoid the pain, or that it should not have to be a matter of power. Thus I think the circumstances are important to this kind of claim, in that we are being asked to look closer, specifically, for something we have been missing, which we would miss in generalizing the grounds, evidence, situations, etc. This makes me think we are perhaps skipping forward to assume ends, goals, enemies, etc., when the claim stops before all that.

In the case of wokeness, the issue is not one of disagreement or misunderstanding. Rather, it lies in the complete blurring of boundaries between the authenticity of identity performance and the sincerity of moral expression — Number2018

If I grant you there are real concerns about mere performance and whether a claim is an expression of a person’s actual interests (on top of social media grandstanding, moralizing, etc.), these objections are still only to the form of the claim (though, yes, something that needs to be addressed). Even judging the grounds we take (or are presented with) for a moral claim does not get at the reasons it is made, nor discharge our obligation to find the need for it. Is the extent of your OP that there are legitimate objections to these methods? That rational discourse has become lost? This is of course a serious issue (deeper and more wide-spread than even these concerns I would think). But do your objections to these methods include (and wish to refute) the underlying interests?

Because these failings do not preclude our ability to attribute (even if imagining) genuine, authentic interests and needs to others if we treat them as serious moral agents. To try to theoretically explain why they are doing this or why we are justified in dismissing them, is to avoid our moral responsibility. To speak frankly, not trying is a cop-out that reflects on us, on our part to bring back rational discourse (though again, I sympathize with the difficulty). I would even argue this is our duty as a citizen in a democracy (as I explain in my discussion of John Dewey - Democracy as a Personal Ethic “Democracy is… respect for the capacity of each other (as if we do not yet know the terms on which to judge).

In an attempt to provide an example of that kind of inquiry/discussion: If we look past the demonstrations we take as (somehow completely) reflecting “woke” “culture”, can we brainstorm what might be the circumstances involved, the necessity of the claim, even the need to make it in a fashion we might misinterpret or not know how to make intelligible? Don’t these claims have a history? Here I am not enough of a social critic to know the answers, but, if we are to be “woke”, what is it we were asleep to?

contemporary moral discourse has undergone a dramatic transformation. — Number2018

But if we agree as to what moral discourse is, we can differentiate it from simply moralizing, which, as you say above to @180 Proof, leads to self-affirmation for being a “good” person without actually doing anything or adding to the conversation, identifying ourselves by our judgment of others as good or bad, etc. But I don’t see the justification to dismiss any actual interests and needs because I’m pretty sure we don’t understand those yet.

The imperative to understand others ‘from the inside’ and to take their experience seriously on their own terms often becomes an impossible undertaking. — Number2018

It is hard not to be inclined to judge others as irrational or unintelligible. I would still argue our responsibility is not to give up and simply moralize in return because others cast the first stone, as any dismissal based on characterization, the existence of worst cases actors, and presumed ends does not take the other person’s interests seriously.

And what I suggest is not to understand the other’s “experience”, which has been philosophically pictured as ever-present and always “mine”, which manifests as the desire to remain misunderstood (or be clear on its face), or be special by nature (always unique). But it is also used as a justification to ignore the human altogether in only recognizing fixed standards for knowledge and rationality. I take these as a general human desire to avoid responsibility to answer for ourselves and to make others intelligible.

How can one distinguish between authentic expressions of suffering and their strategic imitation? We are often caught between the necessity of listening and the danger of being manipulated. — Number2018

The possibility we may not ultimately agree or understand the other’s interests is not a reason to assume irrationality or disingenuousness. Sometimes attributing a serious person to some things that are said and done takes more imagination and generosity than you may receive. We may have to set aside our feelings, our desire to react, our inability to understand instantly, in order to not jump to the first conclusion, to paint the other in the easiest light, to deny their human interests because they don’t come to us on our terms, maybe don’t even live in our world of norms and practices.

In the context of this thread, wokeness often transforms vulnerability into a source of ultimate moral authority. — Number2018

But each of us does have the authority to make a claim on others, even our culture as a whole. Now I understand that you probably mean that just because they say it (are in pain) doesn’t make it right, which of course is true. All there is when someone is making an appeal of this kind for us to change our actions is that it can be done well or poorly, say, appropriately (as I’ve tried to draw out). Plato will call this persuasion and rhetoric because he wanted to only consider pure knowledge. Wittgenstein makes the analogy that we don’t know someone else’s pain (their “experience”) because the way it works is that we react to it (PI p. 223); we accept them as a person in pain, or ignore it. There is an appropriate way to see an aspect of us in the other; to take an attitude towards them (perspective). Wittgenstein will say we are not of the opinion they have a soul, because we treat them as if they do, or not.

Just philosophically speaking, we may be mixing a few things together. Presumably, we want to have a discussion about something on which we might all not agree, nor agree what to do about, nor even be able to value together as an issue. I take these to be moral claims.

But the main thing I see being noticed, objected to, and perpetuated on both sides is superior, righteous judgment, criticism, shaming, and condescension, which I would differentiate as moralizing (e.g., on terms of, say, "good" and "evil"). Unfortunately, any actual discussion of these issues is getting buried under this pile of mutual indignation, claims/denials of authority and rationality.

But in a moral moment there is no authority to claim what is right, thus the importance of understanding the issue from the inside, on another's terms. To make the "strongest" case for them, which is not to say the one we ourselves would make (based on our standards), but respecting that they might have legitimate interests that we don't yet know. Thus a moral discussion is putting ourselves in the place of the other; digging deep to understand (not assume) what they value and want, and not dismissing them out of hand (as we too often do in philosophy, looking first to refute).

an emotional expression and personal experience increasingly substitute for rational deliberation and shared ethical frameworks. — Number2018

It is easy to find ways to close this argument, shut out or moralize the other, but a moral claim puts this responsibility on us, to find its ineligibility, its "rationality" as another's reasons. Of course, these conversations fail all the time, and of course there is not any guarantee of resolution, but I would think the point is to learn what is at stake in a way that is deep, explicit, and wide-ranging.

@J @Moliere @Hanover

if people were given the chance to do things society and general are considered "bad" or "evil" with no one ever finding out, and with zero chance of anyone suspecting them, most would likely take it(correct me if i am wrong) — QuirkyZen

Well, there’s a few maybe unexamined premises here. I take one to be that morality works based on predetermined standards that merely need to be implemented (judged on). Thus, if there is “no one” to do that (judge), because they ‘never find out’, we are free to do whatever we want. This would also include other sources of oversight, like God or a (separate) conscience.

Also, it appears there is the implication that even the (pre)determination of our standards is up in the air, perhaps because, if no one is there to enforce them, it doesn’t even matter if they are there to begin with; thus there appears to be no basis for action, leaving whatever worst-possible scenario you want: anarchy, whim, “indulgence”, evil. I believe we can use the traditional catch-all: “self interest”.

In addition, we are assuming not only that norms are “decided”, but that, either who we are is in place already and determines the choices we make, and/or that the decision about, and judgment of, standards is not just about right and wrong, but implicates our very nature (not just our actions), thus:

Does that make them a bad person? — QuirkyZen

Nietszche suggests we move beyond good and evil not as an argument for some other standard (or just self-interest) but as an observation about the structure of morality. If you decide a thing is right, or “good”, and I don’t follow it, I could either be bad or just wrong. Good and evil assumes an inherent intention (beforehand) behind our acts and/or a constant nature or self that is the cause of them, instead of our just being responsible for our actions after the fact. Thus why there are excuses, extenuating circumstances, bad acts for good reasons, etc. (This also allows for the possibility someone does something horrible because of something inherent in them, and/or for our categorizing who they are for us as part of something they have done—but not in every instance as a function of morality as a whole.)

We do have social norms, but sometimes there is no guide for what we should do (they come to an end or a new situation), and we have to insert ourselves into the moral future as it were, not based on whether we are good or bad, or having decided what is right or wrong, but in so doing we stand up for what is important to us. Wittgenstein saw that our common standards reflect our shared interests in our practices, so (correct) judgment of a novel act is based on the extension of those interests (standards), not a judgment of the individual (their nature or “intention”), say, their selfishness, or selflessness, etc. If we were certain about what was right beforehand (and of all instances), there would be no cases where defying a norm was the right thing to do, or any error or fickleness in our praise and condemnation (mere moralizing).

If we agree to set aside the idea of a legitimate Absolute Conception, how are we going to characterize what an alleged Absolute Conception is saying? Isn't the AC itself now revealed as an error? Is there a way to describe it, more mildly, as merely another "incomplete" view? — J

It’s not the view that we are to overcome, not the form of answer, but letting go of the desire for the outcome.

[Local predispositions] are incomplete, and perhaps dependent on a framework that can't be made part of an absolute conception. But this isn't the sort of "error" that Williams believes an Absolute Conception needs a theory to explain. That error would be the one that claims to be "a rival view" to the Absolute Conception itself. — J

We appear to agree that the “local”/“absolute” framework needs to be set aside, I would say because it is merely a wish, a desire, a manufactured dichotomy. So other observations would not be “rival” views, in competition (not other claims to still conquer skepticism). They would simply not be “complete” or certain, though not thus “errors” or simply “predispositions”. They would still be rational, communal, and correct based on the individual criteria for each thing.

I'm not sure whether an Absolute Conception that unifies and explains all knowledge would also need to demonstrate itself to be certain. And that's part of Williams' question -- does such a conception have to know that it is correct? He calls that "going too far." — J

Again, focusing on specific rather than abstractly “unified”, we can “explain all knowledge” correctly because even knowledge actually has different variations (senses/uses) which have tailored criteria.

@Banno @Wayfarer @Joshs @Fire Ologist @Leontiskos

within any practice that is deeper and more complicated than, for instance, "what constitutes a correct and sufficient apology or excuse," there is likely going to be debate about framework and criteria that is difficult to resolve — J

Sure: knowing, understanding, thinking, seeing, being just, but they all have (specific) ways we judge them and philosophy is the way we talk about what is essential to us about them. There is no fact that ensures those discussions even will be resolved, but that doesn’t annihilate the ability or process to do so, nor make it a matter of individual “opinion” (or a sociological matter). Separately, I would think agreement on the criteria for what constitutes good (even “correct”) scientific method would be easier.

His point is that you don't even get to practices without certain understandings about basic background stuff. — J

We feel we need justification for the “background stuff” beforehand, because we require it to be abstract and absolute. We have no specific topic or situation to dig into. It’s like wanting to agree on the terms of discussion before you can start a conversation. We may not come to an agreement on criteria, but there is at least some substance to talk about.

For Williams' purposes -- and, he suggests, for Descartes' -- an absolute conception would allow us to make sense of, to explain in a unified way, "local" things like secondary qualities, social practices, and disagreements within philosophy. — J

Now I’m not sure what to think, but my concern has only been that dictating that a conception be “absolute” forces what constitutes “local” in comparison. And again, I think we are smooshing together “absolute” as a criteria and “absolute” as all-encompassing (“unified”).

[The absolute conception] should be able to overcome relativism in our view of reality through having a view of the world (or at least the coherent conception of such a view) which contains a theory of error: — Williams, 301

As a reader of Austin, my curiosity is piqued by a discussion of error (he looks into action by examining excuses). Only, I don’t think relativism is to be “overcome”, nor do I imagine a “theory” of error. But yes, error and mistakes and failure and impasse must be accounted for. We have a conflict of interest, however, because our conception wants to avoid the possibility of doubt, or maybe include every outcome. So in saving some of the world (or gaining a complete picture of it), we relegate the rest to “error” or "local predispositions".

What is the difference in kind that you see? — J

Maybe the easiest way to say this is that a moral disagreement is different than an aesthetic one or a scientific dispute. Kant might call the differences categorical, in what makes a thing imperative (to itself). Wittgenstein says the different criteria tell us what kind of object a thing is, what is essential to that kind of thing (for us), what possibilities each thing has.

the assumption is that philosophy's criteria for how to [talk about (say, scientific) criteria] are not on the table. But when the inquiry turns inward, we don't have the luxury of bumping any questions of judgment or method to some off-the-table level. — J

Yes, the last bastion is undefended, without justification or authority, without an arbiter of right. Thus why it is a claim for acceptance, that you accept my observations because you see them for yourself, that you have gathered on your own what evidence is necessary for you to concede. As Wittgenstein puts it, we see the same color to the extent we agree to call it that. This may or may not dovetail into seeing philosophy as a set of descriptions, rather than answers. Doubt creates a gap in our relation to the world, which we turn into a problem of a lack of knowledge, of being unable to envision the world at all (absolutely).

Tank