But also there is a point in having free markets too. — ssu

Free markets?

What the fuck is that? The markets are manipulated to the extreme by all sorts of people in all sorts of ways. There is no such thing as a free market. The primary focus switching to shareholder profits is the primary reason that corporations exploit common workers in the US and across the globe.

Profits for shareholders(most of whom are already fairly well off)... the welfare line for workers... no healthcare benefits... corporate welfare. Socialism for corporations. The government and tax revenue affords the workers some semblance of healthcare, while the corporation rakes in record level profits as a result of exploiting workers.

When profit alone is the sole motive, it comes at the direct expense of everything else.

Do you know who Robert Reich is?

Remember -- we share the burden when things fail. We do not, however, share in the profits. This isn't hard to see or understand. — Xtrix

Ding ding ding ding...

We have a winner!

:smile:

You got that, Shawn? — ssu

Wallows seems a bit too young to fully grasp how important the right to organize is in the states. No offense meant... at all Wallows.

:smile:

So...

That looks like a great plan to empower the everyday worker... a bit of freedom and liberty for working Americans. A reversal of so many policies that have resulted in so many Americans no longer being able to find a good place to work for their entire lives...

Oh, I know... what a horrible idea huh? Dependable workers who care about their job, because it's a good one to have. Used to be a lot of those... not now.

Pension, health benefits, and all that? Who needs it huh? I mean, why not continue to allow huge corporations to breach the contract of those who have already kept their end of the deal. Fuck 'em huh? They're old anyway... they don't need the pension plan that they worked their entire lives for...

No... to quite the contrary, we should keep letting corporations cut pension benefits in order to put the savings from those cuts into the hands of the shareholders...

Take money from those who will reinvest it by virtue of buying things and give it to those who do not.

What a great fucking idea. A robust economy requires having lots of people spend lots of money on everyday goods and services. Regular working class people spend money. Shareholders do not. Investors do not. Corporations do not.

:roll:


That's a perfect list of things to do.

"Where do we draw the line? At vertebrates? The nervous systems of insects may not be as complex as ours, and they probably do not have as rich an experience of the world as we do. They also have very different senses, so the picture that is painted in their minds may be totally unlike ours. But I see no reason to doubt that insects have inner experiences of some kind. — StarsFromMemory

If having physiological sensory perception is equivalent to having an experience... the Venus Flytraps and slime molds have them.

It takes more than that.

Taxes are much better understood as user fees.

Government is a necessary evil. It takes funding to operate. The American government was designed to operate on tax revenue. The United States federal government is the body of people tasked with the sole aim of using that revenue for acting on behalf of all Americans whenever and each time it is possible to do so. Taxes are to be spent on paying politicians who are acting on behalf of all Americans whenever it is possible to do so. The result of their doing so is an improvement in the overall quality of American life.

We do not have that.

Therefore, all the pieces of legislation that led up to where we are now, need to be corrected, and those who voted for them at the time, or argue in their favor today, ought be removed from public office.

The authors of those pieces of legislation ought be made readily available to the American public during these political revelations. The unmasking...

No elected official will publicly nationally admit to acting on behalf of a corporation instead of the overwhelming majority of everyday American people despite knowing of the irreparable harm that would result. Plenty have done it. These are the people that need to be removed from public office, for they are clearly guilty of dereliction of sworn duty. They are not alone.

Taxes are necessary to run an effective government of the people, for the people, and by the people. The United States of America has precisely such a government. When more Americans require being helped along, the American government is required to do more in order to help them along.

Increasing the taxes on the wealthiest Americans and others who do business in the American marketplace is a necessary and just step in the process of making sure Americans get the healthcare they ought.

Bernie Sanders may indeed raise taxes as a means to implement the healthcare policy he's forwarding. Taxes are not bad in and of themselves. The increase in personal income tax will be more than offset by the individual savings in healthcare itself. That is true for the overwhelming majority. The decrease in health care expenses will exceed the increase in personal income tax for those currently with average healthcare costs. The net result is a savings. The result is healthcare for everyone and a bigger paycheck for the everyday American who needs and deserves... fair pay, good healthcare, and the peace of mind knowing that unfortunate health circumstances will not put one in the poor house, or keep one financially obligated to pay huge sums of money for the rest of one's life in order to receive necessary emergency medical treatment.

It's a disgrace.

Obamacare did not fix the problem. Rather, it just made it more complex. In Obama's defense, the actual bill was significantly different than the one originally introduced. It was a step in the right direction. Now it's time to get it right.

The articles can barely even be called opinions. It's just speculation based on comments made by a long-term Clinton adviser (who obviously benefits from having his boss be talked about in the news) written-up and published as click-bait so that these publications can sell advertising space at a competitive rate, and Fishfry actually believes it. — Maw

That seems to be a reasonable report.

Click bait is unacceptable if it knowingly and deliberately misleads the American electorate. A free and fair election must have a well informed electorate. Allowing mis and disinformation to rule the public airwaves is...

...grounds for revolution.

Clinton somehow becoming the democratic nominee as a result of a brokered convention would be as well.

Don't be surprised if that revolution does not take "no" for an answer when it comes to having the best government policies regarding good healthcare. Those policies will have the direct and unmediated result of all Americans having good healthcare not just 'available' to them - we've heard that schtick before - but also used at one's own discretion.

Freedom and liberty regarding the important choices about one's own healthcare.

What a fucking novel idea.

Americans are not idiots. They are criminally governed.

What Bernie wants is classic social democratic goals, universal healthcare, free education and to tax the wealthy more than others. And raise taxes. And create a lot of new regulation and fees and taxes. A lot of red tape from rules from diversifying corporate boards to worker participation and requirements for stakeholder charters. All kinds of new programs and laws that companies have to make. Just massive amounts of red tape. — ssu

Much less red tape is being created than is definitely being stripped away...

So...

If red tape is bad... Bernie's policies are more good than current convention.

You'll have to do better than that.

Well, did you know lobbyists and lawyers of corporations can write bills? What would you expect to find within those bills? — Xtrix

Laws written by unelected officials. People who are knowingly writing pieces of legislation which err on the side of major corporations' profit margins, and in doing so against everyday Americans...

Speeches as well are written by people who are not a candidate/public official.

These sorts of things are wrong on all sorts of levels.

Well, if it's true that the capitalists (holders of economic power) dislike Sanders and campaigned against him, wouldn't that mean he'd have worse chances to be elected? — Echarmion

Not if the same people stayed home as last time. I don't see Biden getting votes from those who want real change. I do see Bernie picking up some Biden and some Trump supporters.

The very notion of "what it's like" to be a man, woman, trans, bat, baseball player, black person, or whatever... is fraught from the very beginning. There is no such thing.

That manner of talk is the problem.

there would be something it is like — Marchesk

That's the entire problem...

Salva veritate...

An exercise in substitution...

That's one linguistic analysis that is often quite useful.

It would not surprise me at all if Trump beats Joe.

The ticket out of this...

A Sanders/Warren ticket.

Do you, does anyone, understand how we ended up with Joe Biden as best candidate? — tim wood

Joe will not rock the boat. He will continue to err on the side of corporate profit when it's in direct conflict with everyday Americans' livelihoods. The major corporations and media outlets have a concerted campaign to smear Bernie at all costs. Re-implement cold war thinking and labels. That's how we've arrived where we are.

It's not over yet though.

Should we get Obamacare back on track? Or reach further?[/quote]

Every American deserves to have the very best healthcare available. There is no excuse for a representative republican government to not place the overall well being, general happiness, and livelihoods of all Americans on the top of the priority list. That is one of the guiding principles of any and all representative governments. The American government has been erring on the side of faceless corporate entities when it comes to a conflict of interest between their profit and the lives of everyday Americans... including healthcare 'concerns'.

When the overwhelming majority of Americans want the best healthcare coverage for all Americans at a significantly lower individual cost than the current average, and that goal is an attainable one, as all of the rest of the major industrialized nations show, yet all the major media news outlets make a concerted attempt to push the idea that it cannot happen...

When huge American and multinational corporations have been using the enormous power of their own free speech to influence all those citizens that the corporations themselves take advantage of...

There's a big problem in the system... monetary corruption of politicians and tremendous corporate influence on public policy. Joe Biden and Obama and Hillary and all the rest of the 'establishment' people on both sides -republican and democrat - have and will continue to err on the side of the huge corporate profits. The only 'difference' between the two is talk... the actual policies that have been disastrous for so many Americans could have been put in place from either side... and were often put in place from both during the transfer of power or just prior to.

If Joe wins it will be more of the same. If Trump wins it will be more of the same.

Joe's a bit more palatable in general.

Given that, what seems a more interesting discussion topic is are three related issues:

(B1) What circumstances necessitate adopting linguistic analysis as a philosophical methodology? — fdrake

:wink:

Times like these.

...a few crazy people... — DeepThinker

Something like that...

Financial responsibility is first and foremost a personal responsibility. — BitconnectCarlos

Are you saying that people are poor because they are not financially responsible?

...well regulated militia...

Those words are more often left out of those who argue for the right to keep and bear arms.

That which exists in it's entirety prior to our naming and descriptive practices.

:meh:

It's a little hard to consider a person a murderer for killing just one person when some people murder hundreds and the bar for what counts as being a murderer is set by the worst actual examples...

That's a matter of degree, praxis. They are all predatory.

But yes... the payday loan places are predatory lending at some of it's worst. Legal loan sharks... without the threat of personal violence.

I think it's a her...

Could be wrong, but the uncanny resemblance between the word choices here and a certain campaign manager's word choices... the only successful female one... is just that... uncanny.

Joining the ranks of the military requires having one's life be put at risk by the personal beliefs of the commander in chief...

I wonder what those enlistment numbers look like nowadays.

The armed services have helped many, no doubt. I've a long line of veterans in my own family, not all of whom glorify it.

What role does money lending play in keeping people poor?

So, there is a huge poverty problem in the US, and it is not solely due to lack of personal initiative.

Freedom of speech, up to date on current events, and very good practice for engaging the standard Republican talking points...

Stick around.

I get it. I’m not welcome here. I can take a hint. — NOS4A2

Now you can go back to crafting and maintaining the predominant Republican worldview...

:wink:

A tool.

Perhaps I misunderstood, but when you said “we could grant it all, and still discard it as irrelevant information, because that's exactly what it is”, I believed you meant it. But if I was wrong I apologize. — NOS4A2

Ok.

Let's try again...

That survey was and still is irrelevant, for all the reasons I've mentioned that have went neglected.

Another thing...

The survey is not equal to any voice, particularly poor people's voices, because remember...

No poor people were surveyed.

:yikes:

So, I can reject the survey for all the reasons I've given, and still not be discarding voices of the poor.

You my friend are either insincere or mistaken.

I don’t know the statistics but I would guess mortgages and credit card debt comprise the bulk of personal borrowing in the US. — praxis

Credit card companies are allowed to charge upwards of 30% interest for the remaining life of the loan if the borrower is late just once. That is predatory lending, especially given the way compound interest accrues and is satisfied.

Discard the voices of the poor as irrelevant, eh — NOS4A2

Those were not voices of the poor.

Say things that aren't true, eh???

Are you unwilling or simply incapable of addressing anything I argue? If it’s not ad hominem, it’s straw men and false accusations. I wonder if you actually think it works or if it is merely an opportunity to display your bona fides to those trapped within your bubble. — NOS4A2

Coming from one who did not address the point I made, offered red herring instead, accused me of calling poor people liars even after I clarified the aforementioned point, as well as topping it all of with yet another false accusation...

Allow me to hold a mirror up for you...

All by itself too... no other forces were at work... it's all individual initiative...

All you and your fellow travellers can do is imply that the people who reported on these questions are lying. But perhaps their claims are sincere while yours are mistaken. — NOS4A2

Red Herring...

It's not about the person's sincerity. We could grant that every person said exactly what they believe. We could grant that it was all true.

It would be more accurate to say that every person participating in a survey agreed to it's wording about the importance of "personal initiative". Regardless...

We could grant it all, and still discard it as irrelevant information, because that's exactly what it is.

Every person who pulled themselves up out of poverty could believe that personal initiative played an irrevocable role in their doing so, and they could all be right. However, if any of them believe that that's all it took... Well, let's just say that they ought consider themselves lucky, because we all know better.

Personal want, desire, drive, and/or initiative - all by itself - is not enough, and that was the point. The speaker's sincerity was never in question for me, for it has nothing to do with that. It's about whether or not personal initiative is enough. It's about whether or not that's all it takes. It's not, but some participants have argued such things...

Way too broad a brushstroke, and shows a clear lack of knowledge regarding what all it takes. One must want it...

Sure...

...but it takes quite a bit more than that to actually pull oneself up by one's own bootstraps, especially after being born into generational poverty. That's all. I suspect you agree.



P.S.

I've not forgotten that you offered - as evidence no less - a piece of pure unadulterated propaganda in support of some bullshit false equivalence you draw between Bernie, his ideas, and 'failed regimes' that have been given the "socialist" or "communist" branding.

As if the words "socialist" and "communist" magically makes your rhetoric true.

They don't.

Outrageously expensive healthcare was and still is normal. The tremendous divide between the best and worst off is more and more normal. Worker abuse is more and more normal. Massive child hunger is normal. Horribly underfunded public education for those who need it most is normal, and becoming worse and worse. Consumer fraud is normal. Great loss of good paying American jobs is normal. Electorate fraud is normal. The financial sector crafting predatory lending tools that create huge devastation to average everyday Americans was normal. The systematic removal of consumer protective measures is normal. Etc...

All normal... and legal.

No Joe.

Let us not return to normal.

A return to normalcy...

:gasp:

87% of people who were asked how they escaped poverty said they did so through “individual initiative”... — NOS4A2

All by itself too... no other forces were at work... it's all individual initiative...

:roll:

I've mentioned this before: There is no minimum cost to enter stocks or cryptocurrency. You could throw $5 into an extremely high risk one. — BitconnectCarlos

You are mistakenly assuming that the destitute have the money, the knowledge, the method, the ability to implement, and the time it takes in order to do all these things...

Unless Bernie is delusional, I think he knows there's no way to get funding for his ambitions. I'm left wondering what he was really trying to accomplish. — frank

A change in the general consensus of thought regarding what the government ought be doing for Americans...

He knows it is not a quick fix. Most people, it seems, do not realize that.

America is ripe for investment in everyday Americans... the building trades and manufacturing sectors are in dire need of American government who places everyday Americans... ahem workers... ahead of corporate interests... ahem... shareholder profits.

There is no excuse for dismantling the entire blue collar sector. The results have been disastrous.

There are a swathe of Americans who would directly benefit from concerted efforts to re-invest in America by virtue of re-investing in everyday Americans. Not to mention the fact that the current state of American infrastructure is downright dangerous in some ways. Re-invest in everyday average Americans.

Go green!

Buy shit that lasts.

How well do really poor people fair when it comes to... I don't know... let's say intellectual property?

You do realize, don't you, that a multimillion dollar idea often does not legally belong to the person who came up with it as a result of the current US labor laws? I think, that there are two exceptions to that. There were only two states the last time I checked, but that's been some time ago.

The point being whether the inventor actually receives substantial financial reward is at the sole discretion of the corporation and/or company they are gainfully employed by.

Basic employment agreements. Standard. Par for the course. In order to even be able to take a job, one must sign away their own intellectual property rights.

Now these cases are not the norm... but, they do arise. Each case is one less person digging themselves out of the hole, despite the fact that they've done nothing wrong. That window is legally nailed shut by a series of unjust precedents. In the rare event that these things happen, there is no legal recourse for the inventor... there very well ought be.

That's a person chip on the shoulder...

:smirk:

America is supposed to be the land of opportunity, but those opportunities have been systemically reduced for all the less fortunate people.

And don't give me the excuse of robotic technology replacing human workers. Those jobs create others and do not replace all humans. Technology is not necessarily at odds with everyday American in the ways that directly concern me.