Rooting out the God-bearer was interesting.

a God-bearing universe is more interesting and more fun — ucarr

The Crusades (11th–13th Centuries)

• Context: The Crusades were a series of religious wars initiated by the Latin Church in medieval Europe, primarily to reclaim the Holy Land from Muslim control.
• Weaponization of Religion: The Crusades were framed as holy wars, sanctioned by the Pope, with the promise of absolution of sins for those who participated. This religious justification masked political and territorial ambitions and helped unify various Christian nations against a common enemy.
• Impact: The Crusades led to significant bloodshed, with entire populations being massacred, including Jews and Muslims, and created centuries-long tensions between the Christian and Islamic worlds.

Spanish Inquisition (1478–1834)

• Context: The Inquisition was a powerful tool used by the Catholic monarchy in Spain to maintain religious orthodoxy, particularly after the Reconquista (the Christian reconquest of Spain from Muslim rulers).
• Weaponization of Religion: The Inquisition was employed to suppress heresy, expel or forcibly convert Jews and Muslims, and root out any deviations from Catholic doctrine. Accusations of heresy were often used to eliminate political rivals, seize property, and suppress dissent.
• Impact: Thousands of people were tortured, executed, or forced into exile, contributing to the religious and cultural homogenization of Spain. The fear and repression instilled by the Inquisition also stifled intellectual and cultural progress for centuries.

Thirty Years' War (1618–1648)

• Context: The Thirty Years' War was one of the deadliest conflicts in European history, involving most of the major powers of Europe. Although it began as a conflict between Protestant and Catholic states within the Holy Roman Empire, it evolved into a more general political struggle.
• Weaponization of Religion: Religion was used to rally support for various factions, with both Protestant and Catholic rulers using religious loyalty to justify war. This religious veneer often hid the deeper motivations of power, territory, and political dominance.
• Impact: The war devastated much of Central Europe, with millions of deaths from violence, famine, and disease. It also led to significant shifts in the balance of power in Europe and a rethinking of the relationship between church and state.

British Colonialism and the Spread of Christianity (17th–19th Centuries)

• Context: During the era of British imperialism, missionaries were often sent to colonized regions in Africa, Asia, and the Americas alongside military and administrative forces.
• Weaponization of Religion: Christianity was used to justify colonial expansion by portraying it as a "civilizing mission." The spread of Christian values was framed as a moral imperative, often dehumanizing indigenous cultures and providing a rationale for subjugation and exploitation.
• Impact: Indigenous cultures and religions were suppressed, and in some cases, nearly eradicated. Religious conversions were often coerced or incentivized, while colonizers seized land and resources, leading to deep social, cultural, and economic upheavals.

Partition of India (1947)

• Context: As British India gained independence, tensions between the Hindu and Muslim populations culminated in the partition of the country into predominantly Hindu India and Muslim-majority Pakistan.
• Weaponization of Religion: Religion was used to create divisions between communities that had previously coexisted for centuries. Politicians and leaders manipulated religious identities to fuel nationalist and sectarian movements. Religious differences were highlighted to legitimize the creation of two separate states.
• Impact: The partition led to one of the largest mass migrations in history, with over 10 million people displaced and an estimated 1–2 million deaths due to communal violence. The religious divide continues to shape relations between India and Pakistan.

Rwandan Genocide (1994)

• Context: The Rwandan Genocide was a mass slaughter of the Tutsi minority by the Hutu majority, resulting in the deaths of an estimated 800,000 people in just 100 days.
• Weaponization of Religion: Religious rhetoric was used to incite violence, with some church leaders participating in the genocide or providing support to Hutu extremists. Religious institutions, particularly the Catholic Church, were accused of failing to intervene or actively contributing to the killings.
• Impact: The genocide left deep scars in Rwandan society, with the role of religious institutions during the violence being a subject of ongoing scrutiny and debate.

Islamic State (ISIS) and Jihadism (2010s)

• Context: The Islamic State (ISIS) emerged in the context of the Syrian civil war and the instability in Iraq, proclaiming a caliphate and using extreme violence to establish control over territories.
• Weaponization of Religion: ISIS and other jihadist groups used a distorted interpretation of Islam to justify acts of terror, violence, and the imposition of a brutal theocratic regime. Their rhetoric centered around a religious duty to fight against non-believers (kafirs) and apostates.
• Impact: The rise of ISIS led to widespread human suffering, mass displacement, and acts of terror around the world. The group's actions also fueled Islamophobia and created divisions within the global Muslim community.

Religious Nationalism in Myanmar (2010s–2020s)

• Context: In Myanmar, the Rohingya Muslim minority has faced severe persecution from the Buddhist majority, particularly during a military crackdown in 2017 that was described as ethnic cleansing.
• Weaponization of Religion: Ultra-nationalist Buddhist monks and leaders used religious rhetoric to dehumanize the Rohingya, framing them as a threat to the nation’s Buddhist identity. This was used to legitimize violence and mass displacement.
• Impact: Over 700,000 Rohingya were forced to flee to neighboring Bangladesh, with thousands killed. The religious and ethnic tensions exacerbated by this conflict have contributed to ongoing humanitarian crises in the region.

Salem Witch Trials (1692)

• Context: In colonial Massachusetts, a series of hearings and prosecutions took place against individuals accused of witchcraft.
• Weaponization of Religion: Puritan religious beliefs played a central role in the trials. The fear of witchcraft was rooted in religious doctrine, and accusations were often fueled by social and political tensions within the community. Religious leaders endorsed the trials as a necessary purging of evil.
• Impact: Nineteen people were executed, and many others were imprisoned. The trials reflected the dangers of religious fanaticism and mass hysteria, leading to deep trauma and mistrust in the local community.

A cosmic sentient with unlimited powers may have created humans with their purpose in mind and therefore with human purpose built into their design. — ucarr

May have or has?

Yeah, he lost me too. — Banno

Maybe he thinks you’re irrationally biased against zygotes for some reason.

So though you claim we should be rational about this, you've got nothing rational to say. — frank

You think it's irrational to say that a zygote does not have the same value as a person?

If I stretch the meaning of "inert" a bit and construe "inactive" as being "neutral-adjacent,"... — ucarr

Stretch it all you like. Though why not just be real. Art isn't beyond morality any more than baking or dropping a nuclear bomb. Even if you framed the latter as performance art it would still have purpose.

... then life-and-art-beyond-morality are the sources and causes of morality. — ucarr

Don't know how you got here from what preceeded it.

There is a real allure or reward of stoicisms promise of staying sane or achieving inner calm.
— Shawn

First of all, Stoicism makes no such promise.

Stoicism is not a self-help philosophy.

These ancient (and for the most part a lot better) versions of self-help tools are not the ends of Stoicism but tools to help in one's Stoic tasks: the journey towards the good. — boethius

If I remember right the sign post points to “the good” instead the bad or the lazy because that’s the road which is most inline with our nature (social beings with the capacity of reason), and living inline with our nature leads to wellbeing. Old or new the ultimate goal seems to be wellbeing, which might be characterized as sane and calm.

I’m not following at all. It seems to me that art beyond morality would be morally inert. It might happen to be completely inline with moral norms or be completely against them, or even more incomprehensible, be with and against simultaneously.

I'll venture to surmise from your statement above we agree that art lies beyond morality, the central theme of this conversation.
...
I think the weaponization of religion, unlike the weaponization of art (as propaganda), lies outside of the scope of this conversation. — ucarr

I can mentally separate art for art's sake and utilitarian-based art but to say that art lies beyond morality raises it to a Godly height. How is art lived beyond morality?

If I grant your view, then every single cell in my body is its own human being. Do you see how absurd that is? — Bob Ross

You're not following. I agree with you that it's absurd, or "weird" as I previously said, and to me just as weird as saying that a zygote is "a human."

The seed is not a plant — Bob Ross

I was hoping that you would say something like this because I think it goes to the heart of the matter. You grant a human zygote fully developed human status but don't grant a seed fully developed plant status. Why? Because you don't care about seeds nearly as much as you care about your own species. A million seeds could be destroyed and you wouldn't bat an eye.

Abortion feels wrong. I don't think that anyone would deny that, but the fact remains that a zygote is a zygote and a seed is a seed.

What you are thinking, is that somehow a dog's cell can just become a dog---that's not how that works. — Bob Ross

Believe it or not I’m not quite that stupid. Definitely close but not that dumb.

I briefly reviewed the process before posting. The essence of it is that the DNA in skin cells replaces the genetic material in the normal reproductive process. Canine eggs are used of course but their genetic material is replaced with the genetic material from skin cells. Hence my point, if the genetic material in a fertilized egg is what defines it as ‘a dog’ or ‘a human’ then the genetic material in a skin cell is also ‘a dog’ or ‘a human’ being that it can be used to reproduce a dog or human instead of the genetic material in eggs and sperm.

Maybe you disagree that it is the genetic material in fertilized eggs that defines them as ‘a dog’ or ‘a human’. Is that the case?

Do your answers establish a separation between art-in-itself and art-in-itself weaponized? — ucarr

If you mean art-in-itself or 'art for art's sake' and art weaponized, yes I've made that separation.

I'd like to move on to the weaponization of religion. Can religion be meaningful and propaganda simultaneously?

I've asked Chatgpt to provide a few examples:

The Crusades (11th–13th Centuries)

• Context: The Crusades were a series of religious wars initiated by the Latin Church in medieval Europe, primarily to reclaim the Holy Land from Muslim control.
• Weaponization of Religion: The Crusades were framed as holy wars, sanctioned by the Pope, with the promise of absolution of sins for those who participated. This religious justification masked political and territorial ambitions and helped unify various Christian nations against a common enemy.
• Impact: The Crusades led to significant bloodshed, with entire populations being massacred, including Jews and Muslims, and created centuries-long tensions between the Christian and Islamic worlds.

Spanish Inquisition (1478–1834)

• Context: The Inquisition was a powerful tool used by the Catholic monarchy in Spain to maintain religious orthodoxy, particularly after the Reconquista (the Christian reconquest of Spain from Muslim rulers).
• Weaponization of Religion: The Inquisition was employed to suppress heresy, expel or forcibly convert Jews and Muslims, and root out any deviations from Catholic doctrine. Accusations of heresy were often used to eliminate political rivals, seize property, and suppress dissent.
• Impact: Thousands of people were tortured, executed, or forced into exile, contributing to the religious and cultural homogenization of Spain. The fear and repression instilled by the Inquisition also stifled intellectual and cultural progress for centuries.

Thirty Years' War (1618–1648)

• Context: The Thirty Years' War was one of the deadliest conflicts in European history, involving most of the major powers of Europe. Although it began as a conflict between Protestant and Catholic states within the Holy Roman Empire, it evolved into a more general political struggle.
• Weaponization of Religion: Religion was used to rally support for various factions, with both Protestant and Catholic rulers using religious loyalty to justify war. This religious veneer often hid the deeper motivations of power, territory, and political dominance.
• Impact: The war devastated much of Central Europe, with millions of deaths from violence, famine, and disease. It also led to significant shifts in the balance of power in Europe and a rethinking of the relationship between church and state.

British Colonialism and the Spread of Christianity (17th–19th Centuries)

• Context: During the era of British imperialism, missionaries were often sent to colonized regions in Africa, Asia, and the Americas alongside military and administrative forces.
• Weaponization of Religion: Christianity was used to justify colonial expansion by portraying it as a "civilizing mission." The spread of Christian values was framed as a moral imperative, often dehumanizing indigenous cultures and providing a rationale for subjugation and exploitation.
• Impact: Indigenous cultures and religions were suppressed, and in some cases, nearly eradicated. Religious conversions were often coerced or incentivized, while colonizers seized land and resources, leading to deep social, cultural, and economic upheavals.

Partition of India (1947)

• Context: As British India gained independence, tensions between the Hindu and Muslim populations culminated in the partition of the country into predominantly Hindu India and Muslim-majority Pakistan.
• Weaponization of Religion: Religion was used to create divisions between communities that had previously coexisted for centuries. Politicians and leaders manipulated religious identities to fuel nationalist and sectarian movements. Religious differences were highlighted to legitimize the creation of two separate states.
• Impact: The partition led to one of the largest mass migrations in history, with over 10 million people displaced and an estimated 1–2 million deaths due to communal violence. The religious divide continues to shape relations between India and Pakistan.

Rwandan Genocide (1994)

• Context: The Rwandan Genocide was a mass slaughter of the Tutsi minority by the Hutu majority, resulting in the deaths of an estimated 800,000 people in just 100 days.
• Weaponization of Religion: Religious rhetoric was used to incite violence, with some church leaders participating in the genocide or providing support to Hutu extremists. Religious institutions, particularly the Catholic Church, were accused of failing to intervene or actively contributing to the killings.
• Impact: The genocide left deep scars in Rwandan society, with the role of religious institutions during the violence being a subject of ongoing scrutiny and debate.

Islamic State (ISIS) and Jihadism (2010s)

• Context: The Islamic State (ISIS) emerged in the context of the Syrian civil war and the instability in Iraq, proclaiming a caliphate and using extreme violence to establish control over territories.
• Weaponization of Religion: ISIS and other jihadist groups used a distorted interpretation of Islam to justify acts of terror, violence, and the imposition of a brutal theocratic regime. Their rhetoric centered around a religious duty to fight against non-believers (kafirs) and apostates.
• Impact: The rise of ISIS led to widespread human suffering, mass displacement, and acts of terror around the world. The group's actions also fueled Islamophobia and created divisions within the global Muslim community.

Religious Nationalism in Myanmar (2010s–2020s)

• Context: In Myanmar, the Rohingya Muslim minority has faced severe persecution from the Buddhist majority, particularly during a military crackdown in 2017 that was described as ethnic cleansing.
• Weaponization of Religion: Ultra-nationalist Buddhist monks and leaders used religious rhetoric to dehumanize the Rohingya, framing them as a threat to the nation’s Buddhist identity. This was used to legitimize violence and mass displacement.
• Impact: Over 700,000 Rohingya were forced to flee to neighboring Bangladesh, with thousands killed. The religious and ethnic tensions exacerbated by this conflict have contributed to ongoing humanitarian crises in the region.

Salem Witch Trials (1692)

• Context: In colonial Massachusetts, a series of hearings and prosecutions took place against individuals accused of witchcraft.
• Weaponization of Religion: Puritan religious beliefs played a central role in the trials. The fear of witchcraft was rooted in religious doctrine, and accusations were often fueled by social and political tensions within the community. Religious leaders endorsed the trials as a necessary purging of evil.
• Impact: Nineteen people were executed, and many others were imprisoned. The trials reflected the dangers of religious fanaticism and mass hysteria, leading to deep trauma and mistrust in the local community.

the conceptus' needs are only ever inferred — Banno

So it is with a new born baby, yet we give a baby at least enough standing to outweigh the mother’s choice of life or death at that point of development, much sooner than that usually.

I didn’t mean to say anything about cloning a zygote. Imagine if you did and it turned out to be a sociopath. You’d have two sociopaths to deal with instead of one. :scream:

Sloppy language, sorry. I’ll reiterate.

Over a thousand dogs have been cloned. They typically use skin cells from the pooches to make clones of them.

Dog skin cells are alive and contain doggy DNA.

You’ve said that human skin cells are not a human so I assume you’d say that dog skin cells are not a dog.

You’ve said that a fertilized human egg is a human so I assume you’d say that a fertilized dog egg is a dog.

My point is that if the genetic material in a fertilized egg is what defines it as ‘a dog’ or ‘a human’ then the genetic material in a skin cell is also ‘a dog’ or ‘a human’ being that it can be used to reproduce a dog or human instead of the genetic material in eggs and sperm.

To me it’s no weirder to say that a skin cell is a human than it is to say a freshly fertilized egg is a human.

Are you suggesting that a person that is dependent on another human to survive is thereby no longer a human being---or never was? — Bob Ross

Uh, no. I'm pointing out that you believe a skin cell is not a human and that a skin cell can be cloned to produce a human being. Both skin and zygote are alive and have human DNA.

You don't understand, without the help of a biologist, that a skin cell isn't a human being? — Bob Ross

A skin cell can't clone itself if that's what you mean. By the same token, a zygote can't develop itself either.

Yeah, true that, might have been a little hyperbolic on my part. Nevertheless I'm sure that it was a major element in actual Stoicism, as distinct from today's armchair versions. — Wayfarer

I agree with you in a Dopamine Nation sort of way.

Interesting that the suggestion of physical fitness is immediately interpreted as 'self-torture' — Wayfarer

That's not the part that caught my attention. I enjoy working out and have been doing it religiously my whole life.

Indifference to heat and cold and to physical discomfort is not something that is acquired by thinking about it. — Wayfarer

Sound a lot like self-torture to me.

I don't think that self-torture is a beneficial way to practice stoicism. The basic goal, if I remember right, is to realize that we have little if any control in life, and accepting that, if we're able to accept it, leads to well-being.

Yes and yes.

my human skill cell (which is a redundant way to put it btw) is not a human. — Bob Ross

A skin cell can be cloned and I think you'd need to be a biologist to distinguish a skin cell from a zygote, so it's amusing that you say a skin cell is not a human.

Sperm and egg cells are unlike skin cells though. They can't be cloned because they don't have a complete set of genetic material. Indivicually they don't qualify as a human, according to your apparent qualifications. But then there isn't much difference between a fertilized egg, an almost fertilized egg, and a skin cell, in terms of their genetic potential. And you say that a skin cell is not a human.

I asked Chatgpt to list a few famous songs from history that promote war.

––––––––
Several songs throughout history have promoted war, either explicitly or by glorifying military conflict. These songs often reflect the political or cultural environment of the time, and they can serve as rallying cries or propaganda tools. Here are a few notable examples:

1. "Over There" (1917) – George M. Cohan

• Context: Written during World War I, this song became an anthem for American soldiers heading to Europe.
• Message: It promotes patriotism and encourages young men to enlist and fight in the war. The lyrics "Send the word, send the word over there, that the Yanks are coming" highlight its martial spirit.

2. "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" (1861) – Julia Ward Howe

• Context: Popular during the American Civil War, this song became associated with the Union Army.
• Message: Its lyrics evoke a sense of divine justice and righteousness in war. It glorifies the idea of fighting for freedom, equating the Union's cause to the will of God.

3. "Rule, Britannia!" (1740) – James Thomson and Thomas Arne

• Context: An iconic British patriotic song that became associated with the British Empire and its military power.
• Message: It celebrates British naval dominance, stating "Britons never, never, never shall be slaves," promoting a militaristic and expansionist national identity.

4. "The Horst Wessel Song" (1930s) – Nazi Party

• Context: This was the anthem of the Nazi Party in Germany.
• Message: It promoted Nazi ideology and the militarization of German society, often played at rallies and public events to encourage loyalty to the regime and its war efforts.

5. "The British Grenadiers" (17th century) – Traditional

• Context: A traditional British military march, commonly associated with the British Army.
• Message: The song praises the bravery of British soldiers, specifically grenadiers, glorifying their role in battle.

6. "Katyusha" (1938) – Matvei Blanter and Mikhail Isakovsky

• Context: A Soviet wartime song, popularized during World War II.
• Message: Though not overtly about combat, it romanticizes the image of soldiers going off to fight for their homeland and the support they receive from those left behind.

7. "Yankee Doodle" (18th century) – Traditional

• Context: Initially a British mockery of American soldiers during the Revolutionary War, it was later adopted by the American colonists as a patriotic anthem.
• Message: Over time, the song has been used to boost morale and encourage soldiers to fight.

8. "Marseillaise" (1792) – Claude Joseph Rouget de Lisle

• Context: The French national anthem, written during the French Revolution.
• Message: It calls for citizens to take up arms and fight against tyranny, with vivid imagery of battle and bloodshed.

These songs often aim to stir patriotic feelings and rally public support for war, making them historically significant as part of wartime propaganda or national identity-building efforts.
––––––––

Art can be a weapon, an olive branch, a medicine, whatever, or merely aesthetic.

Are you charmed and deceived by the ten commandments? — ucarr

Having just reviewed them, I’m not crazy about 1-4 but the rest are okay.

A sperm and egg are alive: no one disputes that. The fact is, also, that a human being begins to exist upon conception of those two. A sperm is alive, but is not a human; an egg is alive but is not a human, but a fertilized egg is a human. — Bob Ross

Of course human eggs and human sperm are human. They don’t contain zebra DNA, they have human DNA. They are alive and they are human.

Why do you resist the concept of an immortal soul when that is ultimately what you’re arguing?

I suspect it's no contradiction at all. Religious turn away from life, love, joy and procreation; they entomb themselves in a celebration of human sacrifice. The rituals of medieval monastic orders attest to this: renunciation of worldly pleasure, mortification of the flesh, a life-long penance for having been born into original sin. — Vera Mont

Yes.

You might think white would be the color of choice, being associated with purity, but to express purity would be impenitent.

But then, Europeans have a long-standing problem with the colour black: they associate it with death and evil - except, somehow, priests and nuns in their flowing black garb. — Vera Mont

That is curious. A few moments of google research suggests that the choice of color is based on the inclination to express austerity and the rejection of material life, favoring of spiritual. Makes sense to me. Zen priests wear black robes too, and they’re all about austerity and the pursuit of the spiritual.

The pro-choice spokesperson said abortion is not a matter of morality, it's about the right to choose. — frank

The right to choose isn’t a moral issue?

Abortion is a moral issue. ... Have the guts to say it. — frank

I don’t think the obvious needs to be stated.

We have a right, they aren't human... — frank

Ironically, you're comparing slaves (and centuries of suffering) to tiny bits of flesh that lack consciousness.

Love in theory is moral guidance on paper. — ucarr

Moral guidance on paper is merely a fictional story designed to align the wills of those charmed by it.

If you want abortion to be legal, you'll have to get yourself some power. Logical arguments have zero to do with it. — frank

Norma McCorvey was a working-class woman and did not have significant financial resources.

It is the lunatic raven man that turns the charming bird meeting of a "murder" and a "conspiracy" into real murder and conspiracy (sometimes at a desk). — Nils Loc

I learned that a gathering of ravens is called an 'unkindness', due to the 19th century misconception that they're bad parents. Turns out they're great parents.

• If it is cold the parents fly miles to find flocks of sheep. They collect wool and take it to the nests. They cover the nests with the wool and in this way it is as if they were making a warm sweater for the little ones.
  
• On very hot days they fly to water sources. They carry water in their huge beaks to provide water for their offspring.
  
• If it is even hotter, they wet their feathers and lower the temperature of the young by giving them a bath. Understand that it is not easy to fly with wet feathers. But devotion for their offspring leads them to perform risky acts.

I'm not a believer in evil, truth be told.

No, no, and no (in that I haven’t acted in order to better the world).

Still missing the point.

What is the sound of one hand jerking?

What is a life?

Is there a parallel in science with Bohr's Copenhagen Interpretation vís-a-vís Einstein's Denounciation? — ucarr

Sure, but I still don’t see war.

Would you choose moral restraints upon the dynamic leader of the people over unrestrained vitality as their motive force? — ucarr

Frankly I’m amazed at how lacking our leaders are in both moral character and ‘unrestrained vitality’. I like to think that if one emerged glistening with both they would be unstoppable.

There is a living human being that is created upon conception; so that is where it begins as a living being. After birth is not at all when it becomes a human being: that makes no sense. — Bob Ross

To me it seems like an arbitrary starting point. Like sperm and egg magically become a living being the instant they meet. Not a fraction of a second before they meet. Sort of like claiming that a cake becomes a cake the exact instant its ingredients first come into contact.

I think you need to include the concept of an immortal soul for the conception thing to work.

That's a tempting thing to say, but if you've ever been delivered from your limitations into a situation you could never earn you way into, it's more fitting to feel gratitude towards a higher power. — ucarr

So far it seems that the only thing you have to be grateful for is the direction to fear. I for one would not be grateful for that. Perhaps you’ve received more than the advice to fear a higher power?

Yes. — ucarr

You think it sinful to see beauty in ugliness?

While the human individual lives s/he struggles with what is best to do going forward. Having a higher power to take direction from provides comfort. — ucarr

Oh, what direction has a higher power given you?

Is God a sub-division of human psychology? — ucarr

God is pretty much whatever someone needs to dream up, I think.

Ugliness is quite rare and instructive -- it makes us rethink what constitutes good (The Elephant Man) -- so a deformed higher-power might possess ugliness as one of its infrequent aspects that only the stalwart person can bear to witness. — ucarr

We see beauty in ugliness through aesthetic experience (art).