What could be more oppressive than a government system?
— synthesis

Corporate power. — Tom Storm

Corporate power is derived from governments. Look at what governments did over something like COVID. Just about shut-down the world.

I asked how disabilities fit into your scheme. Your answer was flippant. — Banno

What would you like me to tell you? Do you believe that I should decide for all 335M Americans?

You have X amount of money, so people need to decide how they are going to spend it. It's what responsible adults do.

Well, Jack, life is change and you have to keep moving forward. Unless you work within this (U.S.) system, it's difficult to understand the subtleties, but that aside, there are so many glaring problems that it doesn't really matter.

With the amount of money and resources dedicated to health care, each Western country should have a superb system of health care, not one that is just limping along. Major changes are going down one way or another.

The main reason why I am opposed to the eradication of the health care system which we have is that I think that it may end up being replaced by a far more oppressive one. I think that any new system which could be implemented may give less empowerment to individuals and be more coercive, and restricting of civil liberties and less favourable towards vulnerable minority groups. — Jack Cummins

What could be more oppressive than a government system?

If you've gotten to the point where you fear change (because things could get worse), you know you are heading down the wrong path.

Truth.
Justice.
Kindness.
Democracy.
Respect for person.
— unenlightened

Good answer. I've known many people who have chosen those values over making money many times over. — Tom Storm

It's not either or, as the sooner (profit) allows the later (virtues).

Do you see any problems with this? — tim wood

There are problems in this health care system from A-Z. It is a system designed by bureaucrats and corporations for the benefit of bureaucrats and corporations. I have heard stories like yours for years and years and years...

Again, this is not to say that individuals are not doing amazing things within this system, but the waste and fraud, the over-billing and over-testing and over-prescribing and all the rest need to be dealt with one way or another.

The best way to do this is make people responsible for their own health care (surgically remove the government and corporations) and then people might just pay attention. And for those who don't care about their own health, well, that 's the way it goes. It's just like the homeless...they're out there to scare the shit out of the middle class so they keep going to those jobs (credit to George Carlin).

Yes the current system is broken, well past broken. Letting it die and rebuilding means accepting responsibility for our own health and seeking out skilled practitioners to supplement our own knowledge. Damned few of us would be willing to accept that. I would, my wife would. Sounds like you would too. But we know the system, we lived it, we see the monumental flaws within it. — Book273

Unfortunately, so few health care providers have been willing to tell it like it is (for all kinds of reasons) but it is as you say it is...horribly flawed. This is not to take anything away from the countless individuals who provide compassionate care to millions of people, but the combination of government regulation/bureaucracy and corporate monopoly-like control over every damn thing has created an environment that is extremely difficult to practice within (especially if you really care about your patients).

Keep up the good fight!

The healthcare system works in almost all countries. — god must be atheist

And you base this on what information?

I don't see that you have given the issues here much thought at all. — Banno

What amazing insight. After being in practice for four decades and giving 100% to each and every patient while fighting tooth and nail with insurance companies and the like, I just decided to sit down the other day and think about this.

My current understanding is that the cost of energy will rise in the near future, having reached peek oil, and this will slow economic growth, but there's no immediate end in sight. — praxis

In theory, this debt bubble has to pop sooner or later. That's the main impediment to growth. Since all matter is energy, that issue should take care of itself.

Dare I ask, What do you think of Medicare? :scream: — jgill

I am on Medicare, as well. It is what it is...unsustainable. Soon you will be able to spend nearly an unlimited amount of money keeping one person alive. How's that going to work?

That's great that you are enjoying good health into your 80's. I see many patients well into their 90's who are also doing quite well these days. The problem isn't with the relatively healthy people, it's those with chronic health issues such as uncontrolled hypertension, diabetes, obesity, and the like. These people end up with all kinds of major organ issues and they are tens of millions of them. And many are young.

Things need to change...and soon.

Or maybe you think folks should take care of their own or their family's surgical needs or other medical needs themselves? — tim wood

Why would I infer such a thing? By taking responsibility for your own health means doing whatever you can to stay healthy, and if something comes up, educate yourself so you can participate in your own care.

I have had many patients self-educate to an incredibly high level where they would come in an make a pretty darn good case for going with a particular medication/procedure. It is not only possible, but I believe it is imperative because you cannot assume that your provider is making the best decision for you (perhaps they're Rx'ing a particular med because it is the cheapest or because the drug rep smiled at him/her. Who knows? It's your health. Do your homework!

I have found that there are two types of highly successful people, the ones that have everybody else doing things for them, and those who really like to understand how things work and do everything they can themselves. If you have a choice, go with the later.

SO how do those with disabilities fit your scheme? — Banno

That's up to each society to determine.

You want to bankrupt your society trying to keep everybody alive forever, go for it!

If you simply mean that capitalism and the global banking system is unsustainable then yeah, no-shit Sherlock, but if you mean anything more specific it would be interesting to hear. — praxis

Capitalism is what it is.. What's mostly wrong wit it are the incredible levels of corruption that have plagued every system. So, would you rather have Capitalism that when corrupted causes what we see today or Communism/Socialism that caused over 100M murders in the 20th century?

It truly amazes me how dependent (intelligent) people have become. You people act as if am asking for two kidneys and a liver instead of just suggesting that you take responsibility for your own health.

These systems are horrendous but you'd rather have them then take the chance on having a much better system that actually addresses core issues. The deal is to stay healthy, not wait until you body refuses to take any more abuse. This should not be this hard to understand.

And desiring to hang on to broken-down institutions? What's with that?

It's time to move on, folks. It's long past time to say good-bye to mommy and daddy (corporations and governments) and take control of your own lives. Don't you people want to be free again?

So we can all agree that present system, be it private insurance or a national health model, is clearly not working (as is the case for all Western institutions). Is the answer to do more of the same?

There are many issues here but the bottom-line is that each individual needs to be personally responsibility for their own heath (just like the solution to education is to make each parent responsible for their children's education) . The days of treating your body like an hated enemy is over. Society can not afford to repair everybody due to the fact that people have refused to take proper care of themselves.

Imagine if tomorrow your government decided that they would fix everybody's automobile regardless of the maintenance you preformed on it. How would that work? This is what's going on in health care.

Health care needs to be about health care, not sick care. The majority of the money invested in the system needs to be about education and promoting beneficial health practices. Of course, there's no money in maintaining good health which is why the corporations must go. They are only concerned with profits (as they should be). There is no niche for this type of organisation in health care.

On the way out the door (and right behind the corporate CEOs) should be the government bureaucrats as the only purpose they serve is to make things worse (more complicated and more expensive). The system needs to be given back to individuals and small non-profits

You will ask, "What happens to the people who become ill or are born with various issues that are no fault of their own?" I suppose each society will have to answer this question after taking off the rose colored glasses that have been allowing them to go into massive debt and/or counterfeit their currencies. The funny money is going to go away sooner than you think.

Much of the previous fifty years of completely irresponsible social policy has been financed fraudulently, something that the majority of folks should be aware of at this point. New leadership needs to tell the truth (adopt sustainable policies via using real money) and then societies can decide on what they are willing to spend on sick care.

These are complex issues but ones that need to be confronted before the corporations decide that serfdom is truly the new black.

Buy low, sell high.

Based on my experience of working in England, it is hard to balance the emphasis on quality of patient care and statistics. I think that it fluctuates, but both are seen as important. — Jack Cummins

Statistics are how large organisations decide if goals have been reached (and they are never about individuals). They always allow for the failures because they are only interested in how the majority fare, i.e., if the most people get mediocre care, than its a "win" for them (despite the fact that the minority received nothing that addressed their issues). Only individual providers are capable of dispensing human compassion.

At the moment, we have government funded healthcare, and I just hope it continues. — Jack Cummins

That's like hoping that the guy who rapes your sister is (at least) good looking. The answer is to get rid of the government and the corporations and give health care back to individuals and very small companies.

Mixing large groups and health care turned out to be the complete disaster as was predicted decades ago. It did not take an Einsteinian mental acuity to have predicted this outcome..

Hopefully, my fears of totalitarian authority are not going to come into medicine and the direction will be one of empowering people to make their own decisions about health. — Jack Cummins

The government-corporate coalition that controls health care pretty much everywhere is about as authoritarian as it gets. In the U.S., un-affordable medical/hospital bills are the number one cause of personal bankruptcy and has been for many years.

This health care system could care less about individuals. It's all about group statistics.

I always come to doctors (and most any kind of expert) with all the information I can and what analysis I’ve done of it myself and where I got stuck trying to figure it all out myself (which is why I’m now seeking expert help)... and more often than not come away with an off-the-shelf non-solution that doesn’t account for most of the details of my particular case. — Pfhorrest

This is exactly how broken the health care system is (as are all institutions). Keep in mind that there still are some good doctors out there. You just have to search for them (word of mouth) if you are able to access providers outside of your insurance.

Just the same (and keeping in mind what the situation is) keep educating yourself. It's your best defense (other than doing everything possible to stay healthy) that may alert you to a provider who really isn't paying enough attention.

If it's good, why is there [not] an outcry against it? If it's bad how did it become a multi-billion dollar franchise? — TheMadFool

This is a global dis-grace. If you want any further proof that the world is being run by adult-children, here it is. Allowing porn access to all ages is a horrendous idea that nobody seems to care about in the least.

The problem is that our youth is spent absorbing knowledge and our dotage is spent gaining experience and so, quite naturally, we're all dead by the time the word "expert" is applicable to us. — TheMadFool

No, the problem is that people are too damn lazy.

Have these schools poisoned your minds to the extent where you simply believe there is no purpose to educating yourselves?

If this is the case, then you folks have zero chance.

There is an old saying in medicine that goes....

"If you listen carefully enough, the patient will tell you EXACTLY what is wrong with them."

Never discount the value of your knowledge when you go to the see your doctor. Tell him/her everything you can remember about your issue. You have no idea how much this helps!

And yet doctors and other medical professionals routinely expect their patients to blindly trust them and obey them. They hate an informed patient. — baker

In most cases this is true. The key is in understanding why this is the case.

Let's eliminate the ego-factor that many high achieving individuals seem to possess. This accounts for much of the, "I am better than you because I went to school X years, so on and so forth," attitude.

I will speak only for the U.S. as this is where I have always practiced. Doctors of all stripes are really good people. I have known very few who are incompetent or uncaring. That's the good news. The bad news is that doctors (as everybody should understand at this juncture), have been massively dis-empowered by the corporate-government cabal that runs the U.S. health care system.

Be in price fixing by the government in Medicare/Medicaid or the incredible control that health insurance companies have over every aspect of modern practice, almost all doctors are no more than glorified employees (if not actual employees) of a system that has long prioritized efficiency and profits over patients.

The way they have done this is through all the same processes that have metastasized the U.S. economy since the seventies, i.e., changing the laws, rules, regulations, financialization (student loans and insurance schemes), and outright fraud (e.g., price fixing with BIG Pharma).

Doctors are caught between a rock and a hard place and most have absolutely no choice but to act in the interests of those who control them. This is why I have told my patients to never assume their doctor is acting in their best interests, and their best defense is to educate themselves.

Doctors do not want you to be informed because the system pays them for seeing as many patients as is possible, so an informed patient requires time...to further educate, to lay out options, to discuss options, to develop a plan, etc. It's THAT simple. The government and the corporations decided that you will remain ignorant and without choices because your doctor is not being paid to educate you, instead, they are being paid to make money for corporate interests (while at the same time keeping the government bureaucracy sufficiently bloated).

Of course, it's not that black and white and there are highly skilled and very compassionate doctors out there who do everything they can to circumvent the system, but the pressure to see patients "as efficiently as is possible" is ENORMOUS and has been for a long time now.

All systems work by creating dependency. There is no better example of this process than is modern health care in the U.S.. You have little choice other than educating yourself and then acting intelligently by taking good care of your body and then, if the needs arises, confronting the health care system armed with knowledge that will help you get the best care possible.

Seriously, though, educate yourselves as much as you can. Your value in this world (to yourself and others) is what you know.

And here's something I have told my patients forever (words handed down over the millennia by the great sages)...Eat well, sleep well, exercise regularly, and pray/meditate daily.

Good luck to you all. Enjoyed the conversation.

I thought the 1950s were the years of 'mindless conformity'! — Bitter Crank

For some, for sure.

What does this all mean? It means we all commonly rely upon the expertise of others, largely to our benefit, and recommending that we rely upon own personal novice opinions for serious matters due to a paranoid fear they're conspiring against you, is irresponsible and irrational. — Hanover

You guys are in for a BIG surprise when you get out into the real world.

Look, either you get what I am saying or you don't.

This is not that difficult to understand.

No-one's arguing against self-education in general. We're all for that. We are arguing though against maximalist scepticism of the naive and impractical species you're advocating. It's precisely because I have educated myself on many areas including the way the virus works that I know your position is at best silly and at worst utterly nonsensical. — Baden

And what exactly am I advocating?

Really? Either take responsibility for yourself or suffer the consequences. I hope you always have doctors that act in your interests and guess what the best course of action is, but the best outcomes are almost always those where the patient is involved because there are almost always options. Of course, if you are ignorant, then you get what you get (probably the most expensive Tx).

It doesn't follow that they're actively trying to harm me. Or that I need to learn their job in order to analyze every bit of advice they give me. Skepticism isn't always justified or helpful and maximalism in the area is likely downright unhealthy if not practically impossible. — Baden

I've been in the health care system for the last forty years and your what? I am not telling you anything I haven't told my patients since the 90's. Do what you want. It's your life. After all, who would believe that educating yourself about something like your own health would be such a great idea, anyway?

Good point. Right now, I'm researching PES (Pecker Ego Syndrome). An interesting condition that results in unabashed and unjustifiable levels if self-confidence. — Baden

Your choice. Spend your time as you wish. You will get out of life exactly what you put into it.

Example. taking responsibility for the health and well-being of a child requires both knowledge and actions based thereon. Lacking those, "taking responsibility" is just an empty phrase which means exactly that responsibility was not taken. — tim wood

People have been brainwashed to believe that they are incapable of doing these things but it is not true. I have had patients that have been incredibly well-educated in their particular issues. Medicine is not that difficult to get a reasonable handle on. It is imperative that everybody do this because if you're depending on your corporate/government people to do this for you, you're SOL.

I can tell that you've probably not taken a single course in virology and I wouldn't rely upon your knowledge on the subject, regardless of how many hours you spent Googling. — Hanover

I've been a practicing physician for forty years. I've seen tens of thousands of patients. I know what people are capable of and it's a lot more than you are willing to do. I am telling you from experience that you have to take responsibility for yourself. Don't ever assume that anybody in this health care system is acting in your interests. I know that sounds bleak, and there are some great people who work within the system, but it is what it is.

All power works its magic by creating dependency. It never hurts to know everything you can. Then (at least) you have some kind of clue what going on if you need to rely on another with a higher skill level.

It's not the 1950's anymore when the majority of people were pretty honest.

I realize that but I shy away from people who like to give homework (even if it for extra credit!).

I just try to do what makes sense to me. And taking responsibility for myself, educating myself, and keeping myself in the best condition possible seems to be the way to go.

I'm a moron when it comes to virology. Did you figure out a cure on your own or maybe you relied on someone else? — Hanover

I can tell. Educate yourself. Read about it. It's not that complicated. If you had a serious lung condition, do you think you might make some time to educate yourself?

And yes, I do what I can to take care of myself, daily exercise, eating property, taking care of myself mentally/spiritually. I do what I can. How about you?

I'm not sure what that means.

Next time you go to the emergency room, I hope you get this response. You don't just "figure out" every health issue for yourself. If those in charge get a pandemic wrong by listening to those whose egos considerably outweigh their intellect, the consequence is death and economic destruction on a far greater scale than we have now. — Baden

One of the solutions to the health care crises in the West is for people to take responsibility for their own health. If you make the effort, you can educate yourself about almost everything you need to know. Prevention is the number one factor everybody has control of.

Believe me, the folks who run the health care system (be it corporate of government) are NOT your friends. The only solution is taking responsibility for yourself no matter the issue. Educate yourself to the point where you can use the so-called "experts" as people who will further your knowledge, but rely on your own brain because nobody cares as much about you as YOU. The experts have sold you out long ago...

Meaning? Your point? In your admirable effort to be terse you left those out - or I'm just not getting them. — tim wood

Meaning that the people who have seen the most success in life throughout the ages are those who are willing to take complete responsibility for themselves. This allows the individual to develop to their full potential, a state of being which benefits all in society.