I'm sorry, but I see contradictions here. — Astorre

Please let me know what contradictions you see.

Thank you for the links and for the clarification.

So your system is valuable to you, but just an empty template to others? — Astorre

I don’t see Compassionism as just “my personal template,” but as a principle anyone could adopt because it’s grounded in something universal: the capacity to suffer and the desire to avoid harm.

Of course, people may or may not value compassion as highly as I do — but that doesn’t make it empty. It’s like honesty: not everyone practices it, but most would agree it’s better than dishonesty when building trust. Compassion works the same way — it has value beyond me because suffering and wellbeing are real for everyone who can experience them.

Stones, as far as we know, don’t have any capacity to feel pain or pleasure, so they wouldn’t be included.
— Truth Seeker

I hope the stone consciousness supporters will pass by and not look in here :lol:

Compassionism isn’t about self-destruction — it’s about balance. I
— Truth Seeker

The balance offers a scale. This is Relativism again. Maybe this is an unsolvable problem.

By the way. There are systems of views (ideologies) in which what is good and what is bad is prescribed in advance, and the choice is practically prescribed to the person (for example, Chu che). You don't need to think about what is good or bad. It has already been written for you. In my opinion, most people in the world don't even think about it; they simply believe in their ideologies (including those that emphasize personal responsibility for one's choices).

Going back to the question: does a person really need to have their own choice, or is it easier to follow a pattern? (For example, if you get on a full bus and there's only one seat available, you'll sit there instead of searching for a better spot if the bus is empty) — Astorre

On balance and relativism: I think balance isn’t the same as “anything goes.” Relativism says all views are equally valid, but Compassionism does not say that. It is about reducing the suffering of all sentient beings and helping oneself and others flourish. It gives us a clear direction, even if the details vary depending on circumstances.

On your bigger question: I agree that many people just follow ready-made systems. It feels easier, like taking the only open seat on a bus. But I think there’s value in choosing consciously instead of outsourcing morality. Even if we borrow ideas from traditions or ideologies, ultimately, it’s our compassion and responsibility that give them meaning. Following a pattern blindly might be simpler, but it risks causing harm without ever asking whether it could be avoided.

You write compassion for all sentient beings. Ok. Let's define who is sentient and who is not. Here on the forum there are many adherents of the idea that stones also have consciousness. Or again set boundaries - these are sentient, these are insensitive. Then what can this be based on? Just believe you or someone else?

then what is the limit of compassion? Sell a kidney and feed starving children with the proceeds? — Astorre

Great questions. For me, sentience means the capacity to feel pain and pleasure. That usually includes humans and non-human animals, and possibly conscious aliens from other planets. Stones, as far as we know, don’t have any capacity to feel pain or pleasure, so they wouldn’t be included. The boundary isn’t arbitrary — it’s based on whether there is scientific evidence of consciousness and the ability to have painful and pleasurable experiences.

As for the limits of compassion, I see it less as an all-or-nothing demand and more as a guiding orientation: do what you reasonably can to help, and avoid causing harm where possible. Compassionism isn’t about self-destruction — it’s about balance. It includes compassion for self and compassion for others. If I act with compassion within my means, I contribute to less suffering and more well-being in the world.

I don't like any of the approaches. That's how we live.
In the deontological approach, you have to believe in something (but what about non-believers?)
In the utilitarian approach, everyone can have different values, which leads to chaos
In the existential approach, if you are a maniac and act in accordance with your aspirations, things don't work out very well either

Nihilism is also not a solution

What would you suggest for people like me? — Astorre

I can understand your frustration — every ethical system seems to run into problems:

Deontology can feel too rigid or tied to belief.
Utilitarianism can clash when values differ.
Existentialism can be misused to justify harmful actions.
Nihilism leaves us without direction at all.

That’s why I’ve found it helpful to think in terms of Compassionism, which is compassion for every sentient being. Instead of relying on rigid rules or endless calculations, the guiding question becomes: Does this choice show compassion, or does it cause harm?

Compassionism doesn’t depend on religion, and it works even when people’s values differ — because compassion is something we all understand as a sentient being. It’s not about being perfect, just about orienting ourselves toward helping rather than harming, moment by moment.

Attempts to answer these questions historically led to the creation of the Deontological (correct is what is prescribed) and Utilitarian (correct is the least of two evils) approaches and their combination. — Astorre

How would we know which is correct? The deontological approach contradicts the utilitarian approach.

Veganism is more ethical than non-veganism because it reduces suffering and death by a massive amount. [ ... ] Now that I have provided argument and evidence, is it now the truth?
— Truth Seeker
Yes, but that "truth" does not entail that "non-veganism" is immoral or necessarily so. Imo, eating either non-industrial or vat-grown/3-d printed meats is no less ethical than a strictly plant-based diet.

How can consciousness be an illusion when I am experiencing it right now and you are experiencing it right now?
— Truth Seeker
Given that the human brain is transparent to itself (i.e. brain-blind (R.S. Bakker)), it cannot perceive how the trick is done and therefore that consciousness is an illusion (i.e. not the entity it seems to be or that one thinks it is).

Also, as Libet's experiments have shown, one is not "experiencing right now" but rather conscious perception occurs up to 550 milliseconds after a stimulus. And what one is conscious of is a simplified representation of the salient features of the perceived object; thus, "consciousness" is only a simplification of a much more complex process that one cannot be conscious of (like e.g. a blindspot that enables sight).

Consider Buddhist no-self, Democitean swirling atoms, Humean bundle theory, Churchlands' eliminativism ... Nørretranders' user-illusion, Hofstadter's strange looping, Metzinger's phenomenal self model, etc: some philosophical cum scientific 'models' of the entity-illusion of consciousness. — 180 Proof

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I’d like to engage with both parts of what you said.

On veganism:
You’re right that lab-grown or 3D-printed meat could potentially be just as ethical as a plant-based diet, since it wouldn’t involve animal suffering. That’s an exciting possibility for the future. But in the present, the overwhelming majority of non-vegan consumption comes from industrial and even small-scale animal farming, both of which involve suffering and killing that veganism avoids. So while non-veganism could be ethical in theory, in practice it mostly isn’t.

On consciousness:
I agree that our conscious experience is a simplified, delayed model of reality. Libet’s experiments and theories like Metzinger’s self-model do show how much is happening outside of our awareness. But calling consciousness an “illusion” may go too far. An illusion is still an experience — like a rainbow. The rainbow isn’t what it seems, but it’s still real as a phenomenon. Similarly, consciousness may not be what we intuitively think it is, but the fact that we have experiences at all means it isn’t unreal.

In short: veganism reduces real suffering today, and consciousness, while not what it seems, is still a real phenomenon of experience.

How do you define good and evil? — Constance

Good is saving and improving lives. Evil is deliberate harm and the murder of sentient beings. How do you define good and evil?

Veganism? A fine topic, I suppose, but hardly the yardstick by which morality is measured. — LuckyR

I am not measuring morality with veganism. Veganism is an example of a moral position.

I agree. Thank you for your detailed reply.

good consists in maintaining, promoting, and enhancing life, and that destroying, injuring, and limiting life are evil. — Truth Seeker

Albert defined good and evil. Veganism is good because it saves and improves lives. Vegans value all sentient lives - not just human lives.

What is the ground of ethics? — Constance

"Ethics, too, are nothing but reverence for life. This is what gives me the fundamental principle of morality, namely, that good consists in maintaining, promoting, and enhancing life, and that destroying, injuring, and limiting life are evil.” – Albert Schweitzer, “Civilization and Ethics”, 1949.

↪Truth Seeker

You can observe brain activities corresponding to pleasure, pain and even consciousness on functional MRI scans.

We know these states "correspond" to pleasure or pain because people tell us they do. A huge amount of neuroscience in this general area presupposes that people are accurate reporters of real, private, mental states. If we didn't assume that, did not presuppose it as fact, then all of our "measurable, third person data" would only tell us about how different stimuli cause different responses in different parts of the body, e.g., "do this and people emit this sort of sound wave." This is why some philosophers and neuroscience argue that we should declare consciousness a sort of unscientific illusion.

Anyhow, if this counts as "observing" inner life, how is goodness not observed? Isn't medical and vetinary science incoherent without the good of the body, health? Isn't most of the field of psychology incoherent with the assumption of a mind and what is good for it? "Psychology" is itself the "discourse of the soul." So too, engineering as a science, architecture, etc., all sorts of arts and sciences, are quite incoherent without a notion of goodness. How can one decide between a good bridge and a bad one, or a good water treatment plant and a bad one, without ends you want to achieve? If a building that falls down is just as good as one that stands, or a treatment that kills patients just as good as one that heals them, these disciplines disappear.

Hence, the good (ends, desirability, choice-worthyness) seems to be everywhere. Further, if it is in the mind, and the mind comes from the physical, then ends, desirability, etc. come from the physical.

I guess that's my point. Your division here seems to beg the question, and I don't think it's actually a wise thing to just assume. IMHO, it's unclear exactly why pleasure should be so different from goodness, one "real" the other illusory for instance. — Count Timothy von Icarus

You have raised valid issues. Just because morals and laws are mental constructs, it does not mean that they are not real. I think morals and laws matter because they have real consequences for real sentient organisms. We have no way to directly access the sentience of another organism. You can't know what it is like for me to be me, and I can't know what it is like for you to be you. As we are both humans, I imagine that we have similar pleasures and pains. How can consciousness be an illusion when I am experiencing it right now and you are experiencing it right now?

Indeed, but does it reduce suffering? My local population of wild goats is controlled by fertility management. But all the goats still die eventually of old age. Is it preferable to be killed by a bear or a human? But what I want you to see is how we agree about the moral foundations while we dispute the practicalities. Nobody thinks that falsehood is preferable to truth in principle; nobody thinks that suffering ought to be inflicted for its own sake; there are some who think that life itself is not good because it always involves suffering - they would say that we ought not to reproduce at all. But again the argument proceeds from the same roots - that suffering is bad. — unenlightened

I think being killed by a bear is worse than being killed by a human because humans can shoot a deer in the brain and kill it with minimal pain, but a bear can't do that. A bear has to claw and bite the deer while the deer is still alive and conscious, which causes more pain to the deer compared to a bullet to the brain. Nonexistence is the only way to prevent all suffering. When we use contraceptives to prevent the existence of a sentient organism, we prevent all suffering, all enjoyment and the eventual death of the sentient organism. Antinatalists argue that humans should stop having babies because that is the only way to prevent more suffering and death.

I think morals and laws matter because they have real consequences for real sentient organisms.

Veganism prevents harm and promotes the well-being of trillions of sentient organisms. Yet, more than 99% of the humans currently alive (8.24 billion) are not yet vegan. Non-vegans kill 80 billion land organisms and 1 to 3 trillion aquatic organisms per year. Why isn't veganism legally mandatory in all countries?
— Truth Seeker

This is not entirely true, Truth Seeker. All life must consume something, and all life must at its end be consumed. If it were not so, life would choke itself. The most organic of gardeners rely on this; my own garden has a pond to encourage frogs that eat the slugs that would otherwise eat my vegetables. Vegans also kill, and 'natural controls of pests are by no means devoid of suffering, commonly involving being eaten from within by nematode worms or the larvae of some insect. Not to mention the mice and squirrels and rabbits that have to be kept from the harvest by some means or other.

The deer in Scotland have no natural predators, and left to themselves would breed until their numbers exceed the capacity of the land to feed them and having destroyed their own environment, would die en mass of starvation. It is a kindness for humans to control the population by acting as the top predator and keeping their numbers limited. there is less suffering in being shot than starving to death.

This is not to defend current livestock practices, or the overconsumption of meat. And particularly at the moment, I agree that one ought not to eat meat in general, given the choice. But certainly one cannot condemn those obligate carnivores, because they do a necessary job. And the scavengers also do another job of tidying up the creatures that die, and we all die, vegans and carnivores alike.

But what I see is our agreement as to the terms of the moral argument. We agree that truth is better than falsehood, that suffering is bad, and so on. And this is the same moral foundation that motivates the punishment of heresy. If one believes one has the truth of how to live, one ought to defend it from being lost, and ignored. The whole reason for human law, and especially punishment, is to persuade people who are inclined to do wrong not to do it, by making it disadvantageous. And again, it seems that we agree that this is what the law should do. But life is complicated and it is not so easy to tease out the consequences of our actions, including our law-making.

There are regions of the world that cannot produce enough non animal food for the human population. Perhaps we should leave such places wild. But perhaps we can find a place there as herders of reindeer, or buffalo, or goats, and form a sustainable way of life. If there is more life, there must be more death and more suffering, but life is good. — unenlightened

In an ideal universe, all organisms would be made of energy, instead of matter, and live forever without consuming any air, water or food. We don't live in an ideal universe. I am not condemning obligate carnivores or scavengers. Veganism is not perfect, but it causes much less suffering and death than non-veganism. Please see: https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/why-go-vegan

Dairy cows: Killed at about 4–6 years old, but could naturally live 15–25 years. They live only 20% of their natural lifespan.

Beef cows: Killed at 9–14 months, though they could live 15–25 years. That’s only 5% of their natural lifespan.

Turkeys: Killed at 12–26 weeks, but naturally live 10–12 years. That’s just 5% of their natural lifespan.

Calves (veal): Killed at 1–24 weeks, but naturally live around 20 years. That’s 3.1% of their lifespan.

Pigs (for meat): Killed at 5 months, but could live 15 years. That’s 2.7% of their lifespan.

Chickens (egg layers): Killed at 14 months, though they can live 10 years. That’s 2.7%.

Ducks: Killed at 7–9 weeks, but naturally live 6–8 years. That’s 2.6%.

Lambs: Killed at 3–5 months, but naturally live 15 years. That’s 2.2%.

Chickens (male, in egg industry): Killed at just 1 day old, even though they could live 10 years. That’s only 0.03% of their potential lifespan.

Deer overpopulation in Scotland isn’t a natural problem — it’s a human-made one. Humans killed their natural predators (wolves, lynxes and bears), cleared forests, and now even manage land to keep deer numbers high for hunting. Shooting them isn’t “kindness,” it’s perpetuating the harm. Real solutions are restoring ecosystems, rewilding predators, or using non-lethal population control like fertility management.

Assertion without argument or evidence – an opinion. — 180 Proof

Thank you for explaining. Veganism is more ethical than non-veganism because it reduces suffering and death by a massive amount. Non-vegans cause suffering and death to 80 billion land organisms and 1 to 3 trillion aquatic organisms per year. Now that I have provided argument and evidence, is it now the truth?

Imho, "opinions" are usually not "right or wrong" and, in most circumstances, more useless than useful. Btw, sophists concern themselves with "opinion" (i.e. doxa), but philosophers, according to Plato, ought to concern themselves with truth (i.e logos, alêtheia). — 180 Proof

What is opinion and what is truth? "Veganism is more ethical than non-veganism." Is this statement an opinion or is it the truth?

A vegan diet requires significantly less land than an omnivorous diet, as livestock consume large amounts of crops and pasture that could otherwise be directly consumed by humans. Shifting to a vegan diet could reduce global agricultural land use by as much as 75% because land is used much more efficiently to grow plants for direct consumption than to grow crops for animal feed. Animal agriculture, in particular red meat and dairy production, is the largest contributor to agricultural land use in omnivorous diets.

Why Vegan Diets Use Less Land
Inefficient Food Chain:
Animals convert plant-based food into meat, dairy, and eggs, but this process involves significant energy loss at each step of the food chain. This means a large amount of land is needed to grow crops for animal feed to produce a relatively small amount of animal products.

Direct Consumption:
A vegan diet avoids this inefficiency by consuming plant-based proteins like legumes, grains, and soy directly.

Here's a relevant post from 2022 ...
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/702431 — 180 Proof

Thank you very much for the link.

Your original question was: "Is right and wrong just a matter of thinking something is right (e.g. it is right to save and improve lives) and something is wrong (e.g. theft, fraud, rape, robbery, enslaving, torture and murder are wrong)?"

But here:

Different because scientific theories, e.g. the theory of gravity, are about something physical outside one's mind... Morals and laws are psychosocial constructs.

aren't you presupposing the answer to this question. It seems to me to get close to: "Facts about morality are different because morality is only in the mind." Or, "moral anti-realism is true because moral anti-realism is true."

There is no objective measure of right and wrong in the universe, the way we can objectively measure the gravity on Earth and on the Moon.

There is no objective way to measure pleasure or pain, nor consciousness itself. Are these illusory too? Are the only things that exist that which can be measured (presumably quantified)? Yet if nothing really exists except for that which can be quantified, then it would still seem that the illusion that such things exist must itself truly exist. For surely we experience values, beauty, pleasure, etc. And yet is "illusion" something that can be quantified? If not, then we must reject the idea that morality, beauty, etc. are illusions, and must simply say that most of our experiences aren't even illusory, they are nothing at all.

Our morals and laws arise out of the dynamic interactions of our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences.

Ah, well the things you've mentioned morality arising from are "physical things outside the mind," no? So how does something that is not a "physical thing" (e.g., goodness) arise from physical things? There must be some sort of convertability, or else such an arising would not be possible. But if physical things relate to value in this manner, then it seems to me that there is no reason why value should be exclusively "in the mind." What is in the mind "arises" from the "physical" and so the physical seems to somehow contain, at least virtually, values, etc. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Morality and laws originate in the mind and get written down for others to read. If I didn't have my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, I wouldn't be a vegan. I consider veganism to be much more ethical than non-veganism, while non-vegans see nothing wrong with being non-vegans.

Genes, environments, and nutrients are physical things, but experiences are mental things. Without the right genes, environments and nutrients we can't get to having experiences. For example, if my human genes were replaced by the genes for apple trees, I would no longer be conscious because apple trees are not conscious.

You can observe brain activities corresponding to pleasure, pain and even consciousness on functional MRI scans. Pleasure, pain and consciousness are not illusions. However, we can't yet experience the pleasure, pain and consciousness of another sentient being with current technology.

That's a great response!

Thank you for your reply. I will think about what you quoted.

Different how? Are scientific theories not "mental constructs?" What about understandings of history? Now if morals are "mental constructs" what causes them? — Count Timothy von Icarus

Different because scientific theories, e.g. the theory of gravity, are about something physical outside one's mind. You can measure the gravity on Earth and measure the gravity on the Moon, etc. You can have delusional beliefs about physical objects, e.g. believing that the Earth is flat, but these beliefs won't change the shape of the Earth. Morals and laws are psychosocial constructs. You can believe that blasphemy is wrong and should be punished by the death penalty. There is no objective measure of right and wrong in the universe, the way we can objectively measure the gravity on Earth and on the Moon.

Our understanding of history is selective because history is written by the winners and reflects their agenda rather than objective truths. For example, the New Testament makes extraordinary claims about someone called Jesus e.g. he was born of a virgin, he is the son of God, he did miracles, he was crucified and was resurrected. Christians believe that the Bible is true, while atheists consider the Bible to be fiction.

Our morals and laws arise out of the dynamic interactions of our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences.

If you're culture thought the Earth was flat, you probably did too. But surely this doesn't give us grounds to believe that there is "no fact of the matter," or that the shape of the Earth varies depending on which cultural context you are currently in. — Count Timothy von Icarus

I totally agree that the shape of the Earth does not vary, regardless of what people believe about it. Morals and laws are different from physical things like the shape of the Earth. Morals and laws are mental constructs which come from our beliefs, e.g. apostasy and blasphemy are considered wrongs in Islam and are punishable by the death penalty in some Muslim-majority countries, while apostasy from Islam and blasphemy against Islam are not considered wrongs in Western countries and are not punished.

The worst part for me is the suffering these animals go through - for many it is a living hell. It's disgusting that animal agriculture is still legal. — Down The Rabbit Hole

Yes, the suffering they go through is truly awful.

What is legal and what is right are not the same thing. — T Clark

I agree. Different people have different opinions about what is right and what is wrong. Which opinion is actually right and which opinion is actually wrong? How do we know?

nonexistence never hurt anyone and existence hurts everyone. — 180 Proof

Thank you for your reply and the valuable links to the other discussions. I agree that existence hurts all sentient organisms, but it does not hurt any nonsentient organisms, e.g. plants, because pain requires sentience.

You know what is bad by understanding what is injurious to you. You know what is good by understanding what revitalises you. — DifferentiatingEgg

What about delusions? For example, people have religious beliefs about going to heaven as they believe they are going to heaven because they have the right faith, e.g. Christianity, and others are going to hell because they have the wrong faith.

Even outside of veganism, people could demand an end to the more odious forms of factory farming. Future generations are going to judge us harshly on this. — RogueAI

I agree.

The proof does not prove that there is an objective morality, but it does show that IF morality is objective, the tenet of existence is good vs non-existence must be held as a foundational premise. — Philosophim

I agree.

Fight! — unenlightened

People have certainly gone to war over priorities, e.g. the United States had a civil war about slavery.

But they don't taste as good. I had an impossible burger once. Never again. But, I would pay twice as much at the store for lab grown meat. — RogueAI

I understand what you mean. I have been a vegan for 19 years. I do miss the taste of non-vegan food, but I prefer being a vegan because it saves and improves sentient nonhuman lives.

If plants are conscious does veganism lose some of it's moralistic appeal? — RogueAI

Yes.

I believe that if one is to believe that there is an objective morality, the one thing we can consider is that existence vs non-existence is good. — Philosophim

How can you know whether morality is objective or subjective? We know things from subjective sensory perceptions, e.g. I see these words on my computer screen.

Our disagreements over good and bad tend to be matters of priority - Is it better to let the robber take your stuff or kill them? We agree that best is to not have your stuff taken and not kill anyone, but... — unenlightened

How would we work out whose priority matters? Vegans prioritise saving and improving the lives of nonhuman sentient organisms, but non-vegans don't. Are vegans in the right and the non-vegans in the wrong?

You’re understanding my point back to front. Across ethical systems, a common theme is the prevention of harm. This does not imply that every possible instance of harm is recognized or codified into the moral principles of a culture. Ethical systems are selective, shaped by historical, social, and practical considerations. Some harms may go unnoticed or be considered acceptable in certain contexts, while others are amplified as morally significant. — Tom Storm

You are right in that ethical systems are selective. That's why non-vegans murder sentient organisms and think they are doing the right thing, even though there are vegan options that avoid the deliberate exploitation and murder of sentient organisms.

So the foundation of most moral systems seems to be preventing harm and promoting wellbeing — Tom Storm

Veganism prevents harm and promotes the well-being of trillions of sentient organisms. Yet, more than 99% of the humans currently alive (8.24 billion) are not yet vegan. Non-vegans kill 80 billion land organisms and 1 to 3 trillion aquatic organisms per year. Why isn't veganism legally mandatory in all countries?

Why are you here? Are you looking for people who believe the world was created a few thousand years ago? You will probably not find anyone like that here. — I like sushi

I am here to read posts by others and make my own posts about various topics that I find interesting. I am not looking for anyone.

Metaphors exist. — I like sushi

Yes, metaphors exist. However, the Bible is not written as a metaphor. It is claimed to be divinely authored truth - which it clearly is not.