If we accept abductive reasoning (inference to best explanation on available evidence - IBE) as leading to rational beliefs, is there really a problem? Such beliefs will, of course, be undertermined but that just means they don't comprise knowledge (in the strict sense).
Epistemology should be of practical use in the world, and in the real world we are nearly always deriving conclusions from limited information. IBEs are the practical ideal. — Relativist
Is it enough to say
"Modern philosophy has problems. These medieval thinkers didn't have these problems. This is because modern philosophy invented this problem for itself by stripping out all the thoughts which earlier thinkers relied upon in making such inferences. Therefore, we should adopt these earlier approaches, given the incredible progress knowledge has made -- there is a disconnect between ability, and these supposed modern problems that we can pass over by reading the older solutions" ?
Does that demonstrate having read the OP? — Moliere
My thinking is with respect to underdetermination and its value -- what I read were some solutions to underdetermination based on a generalization of a few select authors rather than what I might say in favor of underdetermination, for instance. So I wanted some sort of reason why these are even appealing at all? — Moliere
For myself I don't feel a deep need to argue for underdetermination because to me it explains why we go through all the hoops we do in making scientific inferences -- we don't just see the object as it is, we frequently make mistakes, and go about looking for reasons to justify our first beliefs while discounting possibilities not on the basis of evidence, but because they do not fit. This is inescapable for any productive thought at all -- but it has the result that we only have a tentative grasp of the whole. — Moliere
This does not imply that we come to know everything about the actuality of the form. Indeed, we will never know everything about any sort of thing. As Aquinas’ famously put it: “all the efforts of the human intellect cannot exhaust the essence of a single fly.” Nonetheless we know what a fly is. We understand it. It is this phenomenological experience of understanding that is the key datum which epistemology is supposed to explain. — Count Timothy von Icarus
This is something I thought while reading MacIntyre. Yes, I see what you're saying, but like Heidegger you're sort of inventing a whole mindset that is "pre-modern", and justifying it with many quotes -- but at the end of the day if you haven't spoken to people from the pre-modern era then, my brother in christ, you cannot make claims about how pre-modern people think no matter how many texts you read from that era.
It elucidates how we think, but it may not be the panacea of problems contemporary philosophy faces.
It looks soothing -- but ultimately when someone says that if we go back to some ancient or medieval thinker as the person who saw it all I think that we're kind of fibbing to ourselves. — Moliere
We're attempting to reconstruct the thoughts of people we can't talk to, yes. — Moliere
Yet if an epistemology results in our having to affirm conclusions that seem prima facie absurd, and if further, it seems to lead towards radical skepticism and epistemological nihilism, or an ever branching fragmentation of disparate “skeptical solutions” and new “anti-realisms,” that might be a good indication that it is simply a bad epistemology. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Knowledge of trees, an understanding of what a tree is, comes from the presence of this form in our intellect after it has been abstracted from the senses. — Count Timothy von Icarus
The result is that the underdetermination of sheer prediction becomes unanswerable, and skepticism reigns.* — Count Timothy von Icarus
Edit: with Superman we could also avoid belief and still get an apparent error with "Clark Kent appears on the Daily Planet payroll." — Count Timothy von Icarus
On your reasoning, we can disprove the thesis simply by noting that Superman wears a cape whereas Kent does not. — Leontiskos
I'm sympathetic to most of what you have been saying. But this contradiction can easily be resolved. "Superman" and "Clark Kent" are both names for the same person - but each name is assigned to a different persona. This is not particularly strange - pen names, professional names, character names (Barry Humphries, for example), regal names, baptismal names, adoptive names, married names, aliases of all sorts. — Ludwig V
As it is being trained to complete massive amounts of texts, the model comes to develop latent representations (encoded as the values of billions of contextual embedding stored in the hidden neural network layers) of the beliefs of the authors of the text as well as the features of the human world that those authors are talking about. At some stage, the model comes to be able to accurately impersonate, say, both a misinformed Moon landing hoax theorist and a well informed NASA engineer/historian. However, in order to be able to successfully impersonate both of those people, the model must be able to build a representation of the state of the world that better reflects the knowledge of the engineer than it does the beliefs of the conspiracy theorist. The reason for this is that the beliefs of the conspiracy theorist are more easily predictable in light of the actual facts (known by the engineer/historian) and the additional assumption that they are misguided and misinformed in specific ways than the other way around. In other words, the well informed engineer/historian would be more capable of impersonating a Moon landing hoax theorist in a play than the other way around. He/she would sound plausible to conspiracy theorists in the audience. The opposite isn't true. The misinformed theorists would do a poor job of stating the reasons why we can trust that Americans really landed on the Moon. So, the simple algorithms that trains the model for impersonating proponents of various competing paradigms enable it to highlight the flaws of one paradigm in light of another one. When the model is being fine-tuned, it may be rewarded for favoring some paradigms over others (mainstream medicine over alternative medicines, say) but it retains the latent ability to criticize consensual opinions in the light of heterodox ones and, through suitable prompting, the user can elicit the exercise of those capabilities by the post-trained model. — Pierre-Normand
There is both low-level continuity and high-level shift in telos. At the low level, the telos remains accurate next-token prediction, or, more accurately, autoregressive selection. At the high level, there occurs a shift from aimless reproduction of patterns in the training data to, as GPT-5 puts it "assistant policy with H/H/A (helpful/harmless/accurate) goals". How the sense that the model develops of what constitute an accurate response, and of how accuracy is better tracked by some consensual opinions and not others (and sometimes is better tracked by particular minority opinions) is a fairly difficult question. But I think it's an epistemological question that humans also are faced with, and LLMs merely inherit it. — Pierre-Normand
I'd suggest that the sheer instrumentality of the "new science" is a major culprit here. It leads to a sort of pride. It's a particularly pernicious pride in that it often masquerades as epistemic humility. Its epistemic bracketing is often an explicit turn towards the creature and the good of the creature without reference to the creator, as if the one could be cut off from the other. "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools," and exchanged a holistic view for a diabolical process that cuts apart and makes it so that "reason is and ought to be the slave of the passions." — Count Timothy von Icarus
Merely syllogistic logic cannot deal with modal or other intensional contexts. It treats identity as just another predication. That's one of the reasons it's not much used anymore. — Banno
Leibniz' whole point was that if you have two things with all the same properties, then you don't have two things. You were mistaken and there is only one thing after all. Thus the "=" on your definition is by definition not a two-place relation. Instead it is a reflexive relation where the object is identical to itself, and where we have mistaken a single object for two different objects. — Leontiskos
Nothing in God's late condemnation of Saul suggests the misrepresentation thesis. — Count Timothy von Icarus
I remember the writing in bSamuel as brilliant and capturing what can happen even when legitimate prophecy is granted to the crooked timber of humanity.
...
In Torah, you'll hear, e.g., "And God said to Abraham...." In the book of Samuel, this doesn't happen, and instead, it's Samuel telling Saul to put Amalek under the ban. The key here is Samuel. He could be correctly and perfectly conveying God's will, or he could be mistaken, or he could be deceiving. The clarity of Torah, where we see God's words openly dictated, is no longer present in Samuel. — BitconnectCarlos
I continue to be impressed by the amount of gymnastics — jorndoe
Dude, — Banno
On your reasoning, we can disprove the thesis simply by noting that Superman wears a cape whereas Kent does not. Therefore they are not equal or identical. — Leontiskos
Consider two biconditionals:
SC: The two terms can be substituted salva veritate within this context ↔ The two terms are equivalent within this context
SA: The two terms can be substituted salva veritate in every context ↔ The two terms are equivalent in every context (i.e. the two terms are absolutely identical)
Both of these biconditionals are true, but this is the argumentation that leverages SA:
i. [Claim that two terms can be substituted in every context]
ii. [Identify a context in which the two terms cannot be substituted]
iii. Draw a reductio of some kind
For example:
1. "Superman" = "Clark Kent."
2. Lois believes that Superman can fly.
3. ∴ Lois believes that Clark Kent can fly.
As I pointed out above, (1) is false, but it is false in a very deep sense. This is because SA is a linguistic impossibility, and therefore to stipulate that some pair of terms satisfies SA is to stipulate a linguistic impossibility. It’s therefore no surprise that one can always find a context in which the two terms cannot be substituted once one moves out into the real world. — Leontiskos
I apologize: I was not understanding you before. I thought you were referring to demonic possession. Indeed, I agree that it is much more questionable if demonic hybrids would have rights. — Bob Ross
Could God wipe them out justly? I don’t know, but it would definitely violate the rationale I gave above for rights. — Bob Ross
And behold, they cried out, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?” — Matthew 8:29 (RSV)
Yes, but no one that objects with those to me (so far) has ever coherently defined what ‘murder’ is. Like I said, that view may be internally coherent in some theory; but it isn’t coherent with the idea of rights I expounded above. Do you have a different definition of murder that you prefer such that God and the Angel of Death are not committing murder?
My definition, to recap, is that murder is the direct intentional killing of a person. — Bob Ross
Interesting. It seems like Fr. Stephen is taking a more spiritual approach to the theology and the Bible (going back to the beginning of our conversation). — Bob Ross
His critique is fair insofar that systematizing is can go too far and systematize for the sole sake of doing so (e.g., Kant); but I wonder how valid this critique really is: he seems to just have given up on striving towards perfect knowledge. It seems like systematic knowledge is just the attempt at, or aspiration towards, complete knowledge. Should we really give that up? What do we have left after doing so? — Bob Ross
That must mean there is something objective and particular about the concept of the Trinity — Fire Ologist
Wholly instrumental analytic reason is in a sense diabolical (in both its original and current sense). — Count Timothy von Icarus
Let's just leave it at this: on it's face, the Catholic Trinity appears to be contradictory. — frank
As a result, the base-model has the latent ability to express any of the wide range of intelligible opinions that an author of some piece of the training data might have produced, and has no proclivity to adjudicate between them. — Pierre-Normand
During post-training, the model's weights are reconfigured through reinforcement learning in order to fit the schema USER: <query>, ASSISTANT: <response>, USER: <follow up question>, etc. and the models responses that are deemed best in accordance with predetermined criteria (usefulness, harmlessness, accuracy, etc.) are reinforced by human evaluators of by a reward model trained by human evaluators. Some political biases may arise from this process rather than from the consensual or majority opinions present in the training data. But it is also a process by means of which the opinions expressed by the model come to be pegged rather closely to the inferred opinions of the user just because such responses tend to be deemed by evaluators to be more useful or accurate. (Some degree of reward-hacking sometimes is going on at this stage). — Pierre-Normand
It's more akin to a rational reconstruction of the opinions that the model has learned to produce under the constraints that this response would likely be deemed by the user to be useful, cogent and accurate. Actual cogency and accuracy are achieved with some reliability when, as often is the case, the most plausible sounding answer (as the specific user would evaluate it) is the most plausible answer. — Pierre-Normand
Googling "God: Multiple persons sharing one being" returns the Trinity. — Banno
↪frank But I think what I've said in the above posts acknowledges all of that. I said:
So two men both 'participate' in the form 'man' even though they are numerically different men. — Wayfarer
The danger for the Catholic is polytheism. — Banno
When Catholics say the Father is God, they are not predicating. They aren't saying God is a category the Father belongs to. It's an identity statement. The Father is not a section of God. The Father is fully God. Whatever God is, the Father is equal to that. — frank
Christianity is the most ideologically dynamic of all the global religions because it's a fusion of several different sets of cultural outlooks and values. — frank
Kastrup uses this as a metaphor for the relationship between individual minds and what he calls “mind at large.” Just as each dissociated identity experiences itself as a separate person, we experience ourselves as separate individuals—when, in his view, we are all expressions of the same underlying mind manifesting in different ways. — Wayfarer
"=" is very well defined in both maths and logic — Banno
Analytics like Banno seldom have any idea what they are doing when they say, "x = y," as they assume that anything can be placed into that form. They don't recognize the mathematical context and the single genus of the relata that their formulation takes for granted. — Leontiskos
That conclusion (not premise) could only be made by someone who knew both the differences and sameness between what is a “Clark” and what is a “Superman”. — Fire Ologist
P1: X = Y
P2: Z is ready enough to say "X can fly."
P3: Therefore, Z is ready enough to say "Y can fly."
I don’t think this apparent controversy is about an apparent flaw in the notion “X = Y”, but from the insertion of the “Z is ready to say that…”. Z’s belief creates a new context in which we must redefine X and Y. So we can’t substitute the use of either X or Y from P1, in any sentence following P2; P2 has redefined X and Y according to Z’s belief. — Fire Ologist
How did I end up analogizing the Trinity to a single human person, and it jibes with Aquinas, but I didn’t go to Aquinas? Incoherence in the notion of a ‘Trinity’ would make this an utter accident. — Fire Ologist
'Essence' is 'what is essential to the being', from the Latin 'esse' 'to be'. So two men both 'participate' in the form 'man' even though they are numerically different men. — Wayfarer
1. "Superman" = "Clark Kent."
2. Lois believes that Superman can fly.
3. ∴ Lois believes that Clark Kent can fly.
In this case, “is” doesn’t mean numerical identity (as in "Clark Kent is Superman") but rather participation in a common essence. — Wayfarer
The abstract of your article contains such outrageous grammatical errors that I am inclined to suspect either that it was written by rather poor AI, or that you are only semi-literate. — alan1000
The second problem is that to read the article, I have to sign on to a website, with the obvious security compromise which that entails. — alan1000
Owing to the way they've been post-trained, all LLMs are largely unable to offer political opinions of their own. — Pierre-Normand
T1 has to show up in the b sentence, and it's not there. There's nothing to substitute. — frank
It is reasonable to think that the relationship between L and some other category W that represents an alternative analytic conception of the world, can be described in terms of a functor F : L --> W. — sime
They believed God is everything. — frank
In the sense that God is everything - God is the “in” and “with” of all things.
But in the sense that each separate thing is separate from each other (like this rock and that drink), each separate thing is not God and God is not that thing. — Fire Ologist
So now here’s the analytic side of it. Leontiskos does the above make sense to you? It’s not expressly dogma, or from someone else - just my attempt to speak about the Trinity and how is see it. Where is there blatant error and where is it correct?
I think you, @Leontiskos can check my math and see coherence with the basic doctrines in some of the above, see the logic of it. — Fire Ologist
(And you made a distinction between God as a category of being and God as the living being we know as God. And you talked of “the God” versus “God”. These are all necessary distinctions, but I think it can confuse this further. Meaning, I follow you, but I could see someone misconstruing that you are saying there is more than one God.). — Fire Ologist
What is a person? — Fire Ologist
Fine. The use of Logos tells that it's related to Plato, the Stoics, and Philo. The basic idea was that God is everything. That's what Plotinus believed. I'm happy to give you the victory over sorting out what Catholics believe. — frank
The basic idea was that God is everything. — frank
Fine. You're saying John 1:1 is saying that the Word was with the Father, and the Word was divine. — frank
262 The Incarnation of God's Son reveals that God is the eternal Father and that the Son is consubstantial with the Father, which means that, in the Father and with the Father the Son is one and the same God. — Catechism of the Catholic Church, #262
I cannot come to know any person by reason alone. Not you, not Banno, not my children. I cannot come to know many things by reason alone. — Fire Ologist
That does an injustice to the Trinity. The mystery of knowing the Trinity is not akin to the mystery of truly knowing the nuances of me, Banno, or a fine wine.
We don't have official declarations that we can't know each other. The Trinity is not just a routine complicated thing. — Hanover
236 The Fathers of the Church distinguish between theology (theologia) and economy (oikonomia). "Theology" refers to the mystery of God's inmost life within the Blessed Trinity and "economy" to all the works by which God reveals himself and communicates his life. Through the oikonomia the theologia is revealed to us; but conversely, the theologia illuminates the whole oikonomia. God's works reveal who he is in himself; the mystery of his inmost being enlightens our understanding of all his works. So it is, analogously, among human persons. A person discloses himself in his actions, and the better we know a person, the better we understand his actions.
237 The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the "mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God".58 To be sure, God has left traces of his Trinitarian being in his work of creation and in his Revelation throughout the Old Testament. But his inmost Being as Holy Trinity is a mystery that is inaccessible to reason alone or even to Israel's faith before the Incarnation of God's Son and the sending of the Holy Spirit. — Catechism of the Catholic Church
98% of Christian denominations accept the Trinity from a doctrinal point of view, yet only 16% of Christians actually accept it. https://www.arizonachristian.edu/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/AWVI-2025_03_Most-Americans-Reject-the-Trinity_FINAL_03_26_2025.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com
What this means is that there is a distinction between self avowing as a Christian and being a part of the institution of Christianity. Such is common among religions, particularly large ones. — Hanover
I have always thought Christians were polytheistic, not as a criticism, but just a fact, not having any reason to particularly care to save them from it. I found Mormon belief clearer and just more forthright, but, again, there were no consequences for my view. I might as well have been studying the Greek gods. — Hanover
My point here is that I can fully understand preposterous views, like a snake talking to Eve, but you're arguing from incoheremce. While you may say it all makes sense if you think about it long enough, it really doesn't. — Hanover
This is the official view of the Catholic Church:
"The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith…” (CCC §234)
“The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense… We cannot come to know the Trinity by reason alone.” (CCC §237)
This is a direct nod to mysticism. While you might use reason to get at it somewhat, ultimately it's "a mystery." — Hanover
I do note in the Creed that it refers to "we," which could simply mean human reason cannot be used as a basis to understand the Trinity, and it would follow also that it can't be used to reject the Trinity. We can neither come up with reasons to prove it exists or that it doesn't, but we accept on faith that it does. — Hanover
If Christian, confirmation bias is dogmaticaly imposed and it eliminates the possibility of disproof and it entails belief regardless. You can understand then the feeling that there is no value in the debate. Your mind can't be changed by operation of law, so to speak. — Hanover
You're therefore not in a battle with the analytics or the users of reason. You're in a battle specifically with non-Christians who reject your demand of acceptance of Church dogma and refuse to humbly accept their human rationality cannot comprehend divine rationality. — Hanover
This therefore has nothing to do with secularism versus theism or analytics versus whatever. This is just whether one is willing to be Christian or not. If true Christians tied to doctrinal belief (98%) constitute the authentic Christians, then this is just about being Christian or not, and not about being an Analytic, a rationalist, a theist, or whatever. — Hanover
My belief holds, for example, that death is mourned because the opportunity to perform God's law has ended. Heaven, in all its glory, is not sought after, but is brought to earth by good acts. We seek to bring God here, not to go to the heavens for God. It's a this worldly religion based upon what you do. It's not a religion centered around eternal rewards.
My point is that you probably find that profoundly wrong, and you may find issues within it unresolvable, but why should I pretend to care. I don't hold my views because they are logically consistent, empirically provable, or factually credible. I hold them for meaning, purpose, comfort, morality, sense of community, sense of beauty, utilitarian benefit, belonging, etc etc. — Hanover
I guess I'm asking, why the grappling in the muck with the non-believers when you've got enough reason to believe even if some of their academic objections can't be readily overcome? — Hanover
– If the prayer is directed to the Father: "Through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever";
– If it is directed to the Father, but the Son is mentioned at the end: "Who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever";
– If it is directed to the Son: "Who live and reign with God the Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever." — Roman Missal, Third Edition
Grant your faithful, we pray, almighty God,
the resolve to run forth to meet your Christ
with righteous deeds at his coming,
so that, gathered at his right hand,
they may be worthy to possess the heavenly Kingdom.
Through our lord Jesus Christ, your son,
who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the holy spirit,
one God, for ever and ever. — Roman Missal, Third Edition
Well, I know what I mean... Ands the thread is pretty much about trying to make sense of what you mean. — Banno
Again, basing the entire discussion on a heuristic diagram which is famous for its oversimplification is not a good approach. Here is a clause from the Catechism of the Catholic Church that most closely approximates the same idea:
262 The Incarnation of God's Son reveals that God is the eternal Father and that the Son is consubstantial with the Father, which means that, in the Father and with the Father the Son is one and the same God.
— Catechism of the Catholic Church, #262
We could disambiguate the modern phrase, "The Son is God":
A. "The Son—in the Father and Spirit and with the Father and Spirit—is God"
B. "The Son—apart from the Father and the Spirit—is God"
(A) is theologically true whereas (B) is theologically false. The Son is never apart from the Father and the Spirit. What is happening in this thread is that (B) is being claimed as Catholic teaching, and this is false given that (B) is not Catholic teaching. (B) is a hostile translation of a highly compacted and oversimplified diagram.* In the contemporary colloquial idiom when Catholics speak of "God" as a sort of proper name they are talking about the Triune communion of persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. For Catholics the inner life of God is tri-personal, and this creates friction with the standard account of 'God' as mono-personal. The hostile translation (B) is presupposing 'God' as a mono-personal hypostasis, which would place the relata into the same genus and accord with a transitive property of identity. But anyone with knowledge of historic Christianity will know that this is a misrepresentation, that for Christians the generic "God" is triune rather than a single hypostasis, and that "Son" and "God" therefore belong to different genera. ↪Bob Ross was correct in saying that what is at stake is a predication rather than an identity relation. That is a remarkably accurate interpretation of Nicene Christianity. — Leontiskos
That's the reasoning behind the substitution argument given earlier. If in "Jesus is God" and "The Holy Spirit is God" the "is" is that of identity, then we ought be able to substitute and get "Jesus is the Holy Spirit". But Scripture won't let us. — Banno
The underlying idea that, "'Son' and 'God' are formally substitutable terms," requires an insane ignorance of Christian Trinitarianism. — Leontiskos
Are you now denying that Jesus is God? — Banno
In syllogistic logic, all relations are reduced to single-places predications. “Socrates is taller than Plato” have to be paraphrased into one-place predicates like “Socrates is-a-thing-taller-than-Plato” before entering a syllogism. Something like "Tully is Cicero" has to be treated not as a relation, but as a single-placed predicate. It has to be treated the same way as, say, "Tully is a writer". Tully is a member of the group of writers, and Tully is a member of the group of things which are Cicero. — Banno