I have extensive experience with using psilocybin, so might be able to help explore the effects of hallucinogens.
I would categorise it into two effects;
Firstly, the awareness of a subtle layer to our reality, which I will call the astral plane ( I know there is a lot of baggage with this word, as is often the case with these discussions), as shorthand for some kind of subtle realm that we are not normally aware of.
Secondly, a release from our rigid conditioned view and ideology of the world. A loosening of the bond and an awareness of something different, although fleeting, distorted, uncertain and undefined, due to the brute action of the chemical.

Both these realisations can be made through meditation and or religious practice. Or just happen through experiences of epiphany. The use of drugs does hasten the process, But I would guard against any use seeking to go further than this. As it can result in a whole range of psychological, or psychiatric conditions, which would prevent further progress. Also I am of the opinion that once these two realisations have been made, there isn’t really much more benefit to be made. The shell of the primordial egg has been cracked so to speak and one will begin to glimpse the chink of light through the cracks.

Yes, I think it’s reached that point.
If there is anyone who would like to look into this subject further I would be happy to start a new thread.

It seems that the inner me has some tendencies which the outer me has difficulty accommodating for, social anxiety for example. The outer me therefore, has created a bunch of defence mechanisms to fend off what the inner me is telling it. The outer me has set up ways to effectively block the influence of the inner me, because the outer me wants something different from what the inner me can provide for.

This is not necessarily insurmountable, although it would require professional help to unravel. We all have inner conflicts like this of some kind. I had something similar with intense shyness from a young age. But it didn’t develop into something problematic and through considerable effort during my formative years I was able to overcome it. Even now it rears its head occasionally along with other psychological ticks and dysfunctional, or underdeveloped (resulting in repressed), character traits.
But I am able to manage them, neutralise them and clean up the emotional impact they have when they happen.

There is a sense that our weaknesses are actually our strengths, because we have unique experience and ability to live with these. So being able to see this as a strength rather than a failing helps one to face it, work through it and live with it. Even use it to our advantage. Also we have the opportunity to shape our lifestyles to make it easier to live without these issues normally arising. The thing with following a mystical life, it is entirely personal and doesn’t require, necessarily, dealing with the outside world, and you can shape your lifestyle to suit.

Now there are two tricks I use which might be of use to yourself. You may have already come to this realisation. The first is that there isn’t actually a destination, because you are already at your destination, always have been and it is simply a process of taking off the blinkers. Even this is not necessarily required, it might be seen rather as just taking a breath to be quiet, still, that is required. Breathing practice, pranayama, is very beneficial here.

Secondly and this is quite a neat trick, (this is the simplified version). You basically offer yourself up freely to any entity who is gooder than yourself. This necessarily requires one to be sufficiently good yourself that you would happily give yourself up someone equally, or more good than yourself. Once this level of goodness and conviction is reached, you can do a deal with yourself. You will offer access to yourself on the condition that your alter ego becomes at least as good as yourself. With the selling point being that, such a deal would enable progress and greater access. And of course your alter ego would naturally offer access to itself for yourself, because the result would only be gooder, or at least the same level of good. Then both party’s can become gooder and gooder in a partnership of mutual benefit.
I realise that this might be a non starter, but it works well for me. Although I do have a back up association with the deity Kali*, via an association and practice with a Guru and Ashram offering devotional worship to the goddess Kali**.

I would also say that this path isn’t an important thing to do, for any particular reason and is more a choice for certain people who have a calling of some kind to follow it. Others might follow a more intellectual pursuit, or something else entirely. All equally valid and meaningful.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali

**I don’t think it necessary to have such a back up, I just happened to have made and established this connection prior to further work on myself.

So this, I think would be the most difficult part, the initial accommodation. That is where the logical trick I requested would be required. Maybe Wayfarer's example of the scarab beetle is such a trick. The trick is not really logical, but something which goes beyond logic, something which demonstrates the vast field of meaning which is not enveloped by logic

This crisis, or inititiation is foundational in the mystical life. Along with the other crisis I referred to in an earlier post. The one where one realises that the world might not be made of the solid objects we live alongside, but could be some form of immaterial phenomena, or something as yet undisclosed.

The mystical life is a combination of realising what we don’t know, our limits, so to speak and a movement inward to the true self and along the way we encounter human nature. Which is profoundly evolved to see the world as real and dwell there. So there is grounds for a conflict here, or a straight jacket, built in to our predicament. This is where the scarab beetle analogy is appropriate, for the aspirant there is a hurdle, perhaps a number of hurdles to overcome to reach the point where one is ready to begin.

Regarding the initial accommodation I didn’t mean what you describe, which is referring to later stages in the process. The initial accommodation is with yourself here and now. It’s such a subtle distinction it’s almost impossible to grasp. It is with the person typing this message, so to speak. What you refer to here as “my consciousness is just a small bloom which has blossomed out of the unconscious activities of my being”. You know the well used phrase, be true to yourself, this encapsulates it. Although here I would describe it in more technical terms.

One reaches an accommodation with one’s self, such that there is no question, or possibility of a breaking of the bond, or trust between you.

I know this sounds odd, how can you have an unshakable bond with yourself etc. But we must remember human nature. We are beings with an incredibly complex brain and mind, which consists of many layers of activity. Including projections, layered over projections. So basically there is more than one you, or you are a nexus of slightly differing and sometimes opposing mental and emotional processes. The task is to unify this in a way that is true to yourself. Initially it is more a case of reaching a threshold, beyond which the true you holds together and is able to build a focal point. Or it’s like crossing the Rubicon, you pass the point of no return(this is not strictly true, just an analogy).

This stage is very important, because all the other stages build upon it and in a sense they are present in it as it is achieved. So it is a real crisis, or initiation and it inevitably results in a moment of choice(a pivotal choice), the forming of a conviction(determination) and an act signifying the step being taken(acting definitively as your true self).

This can be practiced as an initiation right and there is a long history of this in our cultures. The boy becomes a man, through a right of initiation.

This is not a question of the act of crossing the Rubicon, that happens internally and in all likelihood cannot be pinned down to a moment, or a thought. It is symbolic of a movement within the self, which leaves behind the previous status quo.

Yes, there is a lot going on there.
I could tell you a story or two about such things. Like when I was half way through writing the word, evil, when a large spider ran onto the back of my right hand, the hand I was writing with.
Also the idea of a world view being shattered is in the area I am referring to.

I wasn’t thinking of the the American voter particularly, as this is a global problem (I’m in the U.K.). I agree about the complacency of the American voter and that there is a deep political crisis playing out there.

Yes, there is a logical trick and various techniques. Were you involved in the New Age movement at all? Because these techniques would have been available then. I can’t offer much help, from here, because normally I would advise someone to undergo a programme of self development for a few years first. This is important because it would bring to the surface any psychological issues, or trauma which would be problematic at a later stage, or might make one unsuitable for such practice. Due to the risk of psychosis, or other mental health problems.
You’re in Australia right? I would have a chat with Tom Storm, he might be able to refer you to someone who can help.

I can give you a simplified overall description of what is involved, but as I say, it needs to be undergone with, or adjacent to a group who are able to assess and assist in the process.

I spent a decade of rigorous self development before I was in a position to develop what I am talking about.

So basically, you come to an accommodation with yourself, once this is established and settled, with no conflict, or any issues. Then you establish a dialogue with the voice, or alter ego*. You come to terms where you have an established and shared common interest which is directed at the purification and development of your being. Because there is a strong common interest there is no, opportunity, or room for mischief. I say this because we are here dealing with the ego and the subconscious and if there are any internal conflicts, unreleased trauma, then it can derail the process and progress cannot be made.

The next stage involves reaching an understanding and trust with the voice/alter ego, to become good friends so to speak. To develop a working relationship. This goes hand in hand with a spiritual path in which one is seeking to reach a common understanding with the soul(or equivalent) and become aligned with one’s divine presence**.

Once this is established, one then proceeds to divine (as in divination), or using intuition the ways in which the divinity is infusing into the being. To practice a good life and role in a community, or family.

Over time this develops and reaches a point where there is a divine, or spiritual voice, or presence. Something which is acted out in small acts of kindness with other members of the community and or family. At this point, one would have developed a strong sense of humility and peace in living a relatively simple life engaging in pastimes like gardening, painting, literature or the like. Or discussing these ideas on a friendly forum, for example.

*working with the ego is a whole subject in itself and is the subject and goal of self development practices.

**alignment with one’s divine presence is simply the process practiced in all religions and spiritual schools of becoming one with one’s higher self, soul, becoming close to Jesus etc. There is a whole spiritual philosophy around this with more advanced stages and practices, where one allows the soul to play a guiding role and one and one’s soul (or equivalent) become assimilated in one being, or person.

Shhhhh, you might want to keep quiet about hearing voices and talking to yourself around here they might think you’re away with the fairies (just joking).

Yes, I agree with you entirely. Indeed one of the stages, initiations, or crises that I talk about is reaching an accommodation, an understanding with the internal dialogue. To develop a trust and rapport and develop the ability to work with, to bounce ideas off the voice. At a later stage, one might develop the faculty to hear the divine voice. Something, which I think is achieved by prayer in monastic settings. For me it is rather like a radio receiver.

It’s pitchforks at dawn again, I’m afraid.

Possibility extends through such a vast array of features of a vast array of activities, far beyond the capacity of the most imaginative minds.

Yes, although, I am focussing on the personal angle of a being. Which is actually quite limited, on a small scale and only covering a small number of events, outcomes etc. This does require the vast majority of what happens external to the being to be ignored, or screened out*. For such a being, the experience of such an unusual event is very rare, perhaps once in the lifetime, or only for 1 in 10 people in their lifetime. What I’m saying, is that infact it happens more than we know, even regularly, but we either don’t see it, couldn’t appreciate the relevance, are conditioned to screen it out etc. essentially we are blind to it, except in certain very narrow circumstances determined by our life, heritage and conditioning.
For the mystic, or seer, this is fertile ground for exploration and contemplation.

This "coincidence" acts to "amplify possibility". When the whole, as a group, does something unexpected, the effect of amplified possibility is realized. We observe this, "the effects of amplified possibility" every time a being makes an act which we designate as freely chosen.

Yes, that makes sense, specifically to my second point. But when it comes to my third point, I am talking about something else. That there is some transcendent (perhaps) process, or cause which may involve far reaching karmic**significance. For example, two beings who have some connection from a previous life. Or some extended interaction between historical groups etc. in which the two people involved are emissaries, or representatives to some other unknown process, or meeting.

This implies that within the "non-conscious relation between all the different parts", there is some form of what you call "group communion", which is some form of recognition of the underlying meaning or significance, and this acts to cause the amplification of possibility which is required for the individuals to act together as a whole, in a way which is non-deterministic.

Yes, I’m with you about it not being deterministic. I go back to my emissary analogy, in each event, each being may act as an emissary, or ambassador for a whole species, or series of unconnected(seemingly) events. Also, there is an internal dimension within the physical body of the beings (we are after all a colony of millions of individual cells), a spiritual dimension and a cosmic dimension, to this.***

* we have evolved to do this, in a profound sense, through necessity.
**I am using the word karmic, descriptively, not necessarily in its precise meaning.
***I would refer you to Hindu mythology, in which there is a vast, infinite spiritual cosmos, of which we are in a small pond in a distant backwater.

This isn't elementary school.

We are all still in kindergarten, but don’t realise it. We are playing with our shiny toys and passing them around in our own little worlds pretending to be important, or saying important things. While the grown ups are in the next room keeping an eye on us. Just to make sure we don’t go pressing any big red buttons out of curiosity.

Thanks for that description.

I think we can learn quite a lot from these sort of experiences, it’s like a window into hidden parts of our world that we don’t ordinarily see*.

For example; I have come to realise that extremely inprobable events and coincidences happen all the time. Probabilities equivalent to a lottery win. The probability that the crowd of dancers would part like that is extremely low. I have many other experiences which confirm this observation**. And yet, very few few of us notice these events, or if we do, realise the significance.

Secondly; for this event to happen, there was a collective action between all the people involved. So in a sense the crowd, including myself and the small chap, were acting as one cohesive organism. Which might suggest that we act as one organism more often than we might expect.

Thirdly; there was some kind of calling, need, requirement for the two of us to see each other and have our interaction***. I have had numerous encounters with people which involved exchanging of glances, as intense, or meaningful as this, indeed even more so. So have come to view such interactions as a window to the soul, or something like that.

Fourthly; and this point involves another encounter at the same event, aswell. The realisation that brief meetings between particular people can have a meaning, or significance, way beyond what we might expect. And that some kind of group communion is going on within populations.

This leads me to conclude a number of things about our world and humanity, which are not overtly evident and that there are deeper meaning and far reaching processes and purposes at play in our world about which we know nothing (in particular).

* we are blind, or blinkered to it. Although some cultures are not so blind and embrace it.

** I know about probability, chance and random events. But I am putting it in the context of a human life and the rarity within the experiences of a person for such improbable events to happen with meaning, within their particular path of experience. And that through the development of the skills of observation, one can come to see these events more and more and make use of them.

***the implication being that there is something going on at a soul, or spirit level in the beings involved.

Are we truly entering an era of multipolarity? If so, what are the philosophical consequences of a world without a dominant cultural “center”?

Yes, we are, but I would point to the driving force being climate change and to a lesser extent, competition for rapidly depleted resources.

Big corporations and oligarchs have realised that the climate change will have a big impact and soon. So they are scrambling to get in the limited number of lifeboats (metaphorically speaking) before it gets too bad. This was triggered by the financial crisis of 2008. When the cracks began to show in the capitalist order. I expect that in 50 years from now there will be three power bases, in no particular order, the U.S. ( including Canada, possibly Mexico), Europe (including Ukraine, Belarus etc) and China (including Japan Korea etc, possibly even India). The rest of the world will have to fend for itself, although, I think Australasia will be able to hold together in some form.

Is the West prepared to coexist with ideological and civilizational alternatives that do not necessarily aspire to Western liberalism?

They will have no choice.

Does multipolarity inevitably increase the risk of global conflict, or could it usher in a more balanced, mutualist order?

It will definitely reduce the risk, as easy power block will be struggling to survive and feed it’s population.

I find it very interesting how different people will remember the very same event in completely different ways. So you might say, something incredulous happened, but someone else in the same area might just notice a mundane occurrence.

Let me describe the event (that happened 30yrs ago), because there we two people who experienced it and it involved an exchange of glances between another person and myself and in some ways the setting was not the main event. It was the meeting of minds.

I was at the New Years Eve rave at Anjuna beach, Goa in 1995/6. There was a dense throng of dancers in a dense area about the size of a tennis court. I had been observing the dancing, the music and how it affected the people and how the crowd would become one. There was a kind of churning of energy following the music, the people would move with the churning as a flock of birds, or shoal of fishes. With the highlight being when someone would blow a whistle. Needless to say, I found this fascinating and was contemplating the spiritual dimension. When all of a sudden the throng parted by chance, a wall of about twenty, or more deep of dancers simultaneously all moved in such a way that a clear passage opened up in the throng. I saw at the other end of this passage, a small chap who was all grey, drained and exhausted, he looked as though he was struggling to stay on his feet and wanted out. I just looked on astonished, like a rabbit caught in headlights. He suddenly noticed me and our gaze met. I could see his desperation and his heartfelt plea for me to release him. He reached out his hand and I failed to respond. Although there was nothing I could do. The wall of people closed in on him again in an instant and I realised there would be no way I would be able to go in there and pull him out. I just carried on my way, contemplating what had just happened.

There was a visceral exchange between us, an acknowledgment and an understanding, the whole thing lasted for about a second, although it felt more like about ten seconds. I often wonder just what happened there in that moment. Although it wasn’t an isolated incident, lots of other interesting things happened around that time.

But going back to my point about being a witness, I am sure that for the other person along with myself, the encounter was burned into our minds and I know I certainly had a profound sense of every detail of it. There was knowledge given to me absent a thinking mind, instantaneous and unforgettable.

Yes, reminds me of realisations about separateness. If only I could go back to that point in my memory. What I would do, or say differently if I could. If I could only step back those thirty years, what I would do. Or people who I have lost touch with, who I would dearly like to contact and yet I know that they too are present now in this moment. Just somewhere else. These separations are also there for knowledge, experience. In a sense, they define us.

This really depends on how you would define "know". Unlike some epistemologists, I don't think that truth is a requirement for "knowledge". Plato, in The Theaetetus, demonstrated that we cannot actually ensure truth, so a determination of truth is not necessary for us to call some information "knowledge". So I'm not saying that we know nothing, I'm saying that truth isn't really part of our knowledge.

Yes, and there are different kinds of knowledge. Something that interests me is knowledge acquired through the witnessing of events. This doesn’t require learning, or understanding, just observation, or presence. I can remember and visualise clearly, in memory, events that happened 30 years ago. In which I witnessed something unexplainable, something which defies credulity and which has broad ranging implications for how I think about the world and reality. And yet at the time, it was just something I noticed, experienced, for a split second. Something that happened so quickly and was over before I could react. I could have just carried on, walked past and not given it another thought. But my enquiring mind and curiosity latched onto it instantly and it is still with me now as though it happened yesterday.

This experience is logged in me along with many others like a film archive, of curious observation’s and form an important part of my knowledge.

Truth is a moveable feast, ;-)

The simplification helps to keep us focused directly on what is important and purposeful to our little corner of being, but it misleads us into thinking that this is representative of "the universe" as a whole. Ontologies like monism are an extension of this misleading trend toward oversimplification.

Do you realise that you have just said that we know nothing, in particular. Well apart from what we have evolved to deal with.
I would go further and state that we cannot say anything positive, or negative about anything other than our world (except through revelation), welcome to the ranks of mysticism.

Regarding the poles, I would refer one to the myth of Ishvara (there are differing interpretations within Hinduism). I liken it to a divine being, spinning the world from her fingertips.

Or the first verse of the bible;

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

In both cases the deity whispers, blows, or spins the vibrations, or waves of form and diversity onto/into a ground, a field of potentially.

The idea that there is a thing which emits the noise, and a thing which receives the noise is very misleading because it does not allow the proper understanding, which requires that the supposed 'things' must be understood as really the activity of something else. The true understanding is that the supposed 'thing' is not a thing at all, but some other activity of something else, which appears to us as if it were a thing

Quite, and it’s a good way of thinking about it, in order to free ourselves of hard materialism, or something. But it’s more complicated than that and we mustn’t lose sight of the fact that what we are involved in, in our little lives in this world we find ourselves in, is reality (for us) and that there is a purpose and process going on with and between the things.

As for the “activity of something else”, presumably we are talking of distant, or large objects, acting as poles. As in electrical, or magnetic poles?

The I have no idea what we have been disagreeing about, because it is true by mere definition that we cannot see the world as it would be absent any observer.

The title of the thread is* (in a nutshell), to tease out a blindness in the view that, supported by science etc. the physical world**is what exists and anything else is mere speculation. A view which is held by the majority of the population. That the overwhelming truth of this orthodoxy cannot in all seriousness be challenged, and that this (orthodoxy) results in a blinkered view.

*apologies Wayfarer, if I have misrepresented the tittle.

**I am simplifying the various physicalist perspectives into one phrase here.

Tread carefully, dog is God read backwards. What if dog’s read backwards?

Anubis anyone.

I agree, and for me this means that gravity is a definite part of our experience whereas a universal mind is not―the latter is purely speculative.

So what?

I can’t (Kant) see a disagreement between us, it’s more a difference of emphasis. That looking through different ends of the telescope thing again. You emphasise the importance of proof and the empirical. Me pretty much the opposite, the emphasis on what can’t be proved, or focussing on what can’t be quantified in the empirical. Although we both are concerned with sticking to the truth and not wondering down blind alleys.

I recommend finishing the whole paragraph for yourself as paragraphs are the basic unit in this writing.

Yes, I’ve already realised this. It’s almost like prose.

I don't see gravity as a good analogy because its effects are measurable. I believe that the idea of independently existing things makes sense―others see problems with it, but it seems those problems stem form assumptions that I don't share.

The difference between the action of gravity on our experience and the action of a universal mind, for example, may be that one appears in the external world of appearances where we measure things and the other doesn’t. The latter might have an action in us, which we can’t measure, or isolate as a property.
Anyway, I was using it to illustrate that there are things/forces in our world which literally affect every movement we make about which we have little understanding.

The idea of a shared or collective mind is not logically contradictory, so it makes sense in that sense, but I think the idea is extremely underdetermined by our everyday experience.

Quite, but as I say, it’s presence in our lives might just be inobvious, or orthogonal to our preoccupations.

Referring back to Kant, he is pointing out the limits of our understanding of the world we find ourselves in by delineation the noumenon. Also in Eastern philosophies, such concepts are used the the contemplation of our nature and the realisation of worlds, or realms accessed via meditation, or revelation.
I have an affinity with these concepts as I am concerned with realising our limitations and developing ways to view our limitations in the context of our lives (living a life), for example.

Thanks, but my laptop has been in the drawer for the last few years. I only use an IPad now.

I’ve read the passages you mentioned, he’s explaining how in considering time and causation we can conclude that things have an existence in themselves (in it’s self).

I’ve also had a look at noumenon, I can’t unfortunately copy and paste the text from this pdf. So I will have to paraphrase, the passage I’m thinking of is to be found in B311, page 350, in the text.

It basically explains that noumenon are all things thought about, or which could potentially be thought about, but which are not brought into thought by sensible intuition( thinking about things we experience through the senses), which have an empirical basis. As such they are thought about through insensible intuition, (our imagination) or thought divorced from empirical understanding. That by definition they cannot be thought about, because any thought we do have is conditioned by our sensible intuition. So they are an absence of thought. They cannot be thought in any way. They form a boundary of sensible thought. They are not invented arbitrarily, but are connected with the limit of sensible intuition. Yet without being able to posit anything positive outside the domain of the latter.

They are a limit, or boundary, beyond which we cannot pass. But enable us (hypothetically) to see the the boundary of thought and understanding.

From the text;

Now in this way our understanding acquires a negative expansion, I.e. it is not limited by sensibility(influence of the senses), but rather limits it by calling things in themselves(not considered as appearances) noumena. But it also immediately sets boundaries for itself, not cognising these things through categories, hence merely thinking them under the name of an unknown something.

The way I see it is as a boundary like a line, or plane in three dimensional space. On one side is the world of appearances, the empirical world we know. While on the other side is an absolutely undefined realm, which is not nothing, because it is defined by being on the other side of the boundary, (which certainly exists), because it is defined by the world of the senses. But we can’t project, or say anything about it, it is blank.

However this is not to say there isn’t anything there, there might be. There might be more there than on the side of the senses. But we have absolutely no way of seeing, or knowing that. We are entirely limited to the world of senses and appearances.

Regarding the Ālaya-Vijñāna there is also a Theosophical idea designated the "Akashic Records", which I think bears some resemblance to the Buddhist idea. It seems that idealist thinkers have long recognized the explanatory need for some kind of collective consciousness as a substitute for the independent actuality of physical existents.

There are ways around this*, you know how gravity works at a distance, but absent the theory of relativity, there is no known physical mechanism by which the force is exerted. Relativity accounts for it, but is little more than a descriptive, rather hypothetical explanation, a mathematical mapping of the relation between bodies, forces and energy. Perhaps there is the equivalent between minds**. Also there is the idea, which dovetails to an extent with idealism, of all beings/organisms, or more pertinently living entities, as one entity, branched, or budded off into separate organisms in the realm of manifestation/objectification. With the root unseen, or known by us rather like the root of gravity being unseen, or known.


* although I don’t see the need for such aversion to the idea of some connection, or lineage, or mind between beings. I can understand the aversion found amongst Western philosophers and Buddhist scholars. But for me, I see, a kind of apologetics, or fig leaf being used when such ideas come to the surface.

** I use mind in a broader sense than the thinking, or computational intelligence, often referred to. Rather the animating living aspect of being, which incorporates the whole electrical cohesion of the body.

Thanks, I was just about getting my head around it. I’m there now. Sounds about right for how I treat the issue.

Thanks for linking to the text, I’ll have a look.

I’m finding this almost unintelligible. Can you summarise in layman’s terms what is being said about these boundaries?
I’m new to Kant, so haven’t yet got a handle on his style.

Well I’ve had a look at what the Stanford encyclopaedia of philosophy has to say about it;

From point 6.1;

If by a noumenon we understand a thing insofar as it is not an object of our sensible intuition, because we abstract from the manner of our intuition of then this is a noumenon in the negative sense. But if we understand by that an object of a non-sensible intuition then we assume a special kind of intuition, namely intellectual intuition, which, however, is not our own, and the possibility of which we cannot understand, and this would be the noumenon in a positive sense. (B307)

Noumena in a positive sense are simply noumena as Kant originally defined that notion in the A edition: objects of an intellectual (non-sensible) intuition. The negative concept of noumena, however, is simply the concept of objects that are not spatiotemporal (not objects of our sensible intuition, namely space and time). But then it follows that things in themselves are noumena in the negative sense, retrospectively clarifying the passage from the A edition quoted immediately above, where Kant seems to draw from the “Transcendental Aesthetic” the conclusion that there are noumena: the concept of appearance requires that something appears, and this must be a negative noumena.

From point 6.2;

Another way to appreciate this distinction is to consider the difference in why these notions of object (noumena, transcendental object) are unknowable by us. We cannot cognize things in themselves because cognition requires intuition, and our intuition only ever presents appearances, not things in themselves. We cannot cognize the transcendental object because the transcendental object is a purely schematic, general idea of empirical objectivity. Whenever we cognize a determinate empirical object we are cognitively deploying the transcendental concept of an object in general, but we are not coming to know anything about the object of that concept as such.

This is Kant’s point in “phenomena and noumena” when he writes:

This transcendental object cannot even be separated from the sensible data, for then nothing would remain through which it would be thought. It is therefore no object of cognition in itself, but only the representation of appearances under the concept of an object in general, which is determinable through the manifold of those appearances. (A250–1)

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-transcendental-idealism/

From this it looks like Kant saw noumena as intellectual concepts, referring to something entirely inaccessible to us, which is inferred. Being intellectual they are entirely abstract and an invention of the human thinking mind. So we cannot say anything about what they are, or aren’t. But they are inferred because if we experience appearances, then they must be appearances of something. Something which is inaccessible to us, because if they were accessible to us, they would be appearances.

He is also saying that transcendental objects, our conception of appearances, cannot be separated from the appearances. So in a sense we are tied to the acceptance of appearances during the experiencing of them.

A double whammy, not only can’t we say anything about noumena, but we are confined within a world of appearances, so can’t say anything about anything else (apart from appearances), either.

You’re both looking down different ends of the telescope. That’s why it looks different.
— Punshhh

I thought this comment referred to a conversation we were having in the other 'idealism' thread. I'm not so sure what it refers to in this thread.

It was a joke, about people looking at the same thing from different perspectives.

So is it the case that whenever this perspective is proposed, it invariably originated from a study of Eastern religious ideas?

Nevertheless the basic point that Magee makes stands - that insight into transcendental idealism does require a kind of fundamental shift in perspective, akin to a gestalt shift but in a more general way, and it’s not easy to come by.

I would use the word orientation in that it is a question of perspective, or direction. A viewpoint, or gaze which then sees something already known, or commonly seen in a different light.

A development within the self, or being, in which, (by analogy), a lens is cleared (a veil lifted), or brought into clearer focus. Allowing more light through (illuminating further), or a broader, or deeper perspective.

A general observation on many of the comments being made in this thread:

the assumptions of 'the inborn realism which arises from the original disposition of the intellect' enter unawares into the way in which the statements of transcendental idealism are understood, so that these statements appear faulty in ways in which, properly understood, they are not. Such realistic assumptions so pervade our normal use of concepts that the claims of transcendental idealism disclose their own non-absurdity only after difficult consideration, whereas criticisms of them at first appear cogent which, on examination, are seen to rest on confusion. We have to raise almost impossibly deep levels of presupposition in our own thinking and imagination to the level of self-consciousness before we are able to achieve a critical awareness of all our realistic assumptions, and thus achieve an understanding of transcendental idealism which is untainted by them. This, of course, is one of the explanations for the almost unfathomably deep counterintuitiveness of transcendental idealism, and also for the general notion of 'depth' with which people associate Kantian and post-Kantian philosophy. Something akin to it is the reason for much of the prolonged, self-disciplined meditation involved in a number of Eastern religious practices.
— Schopenhauer's Philosophy, Bryan Magee, p106, 'Subjects and Objects'

Yes, this crisis/initiation is foundational in Eastern religions and spirituality. It’s promising to see that philosophers are making it over this hurdle too.

Let’s see how many other hurdles they have jumped.

You’re both looking down different ends of the telescope. That’s why it looks different.

Hopefully you get the idea that no matter how long I go on EVERYTHING I can say is noumena negatively ONLY and can NEVER be positively captured.

YES, I HEAR YOU, I UNDERSTAND. I’ll have take your word for that for now, until I’ve read more about it.

I think it is a good place to begin when trying to understand the kind of problems that arise in human experience including how we articulate what consciousness is and how it relates to the physical world as well as our metaphysical concepts about the world -- which are necessarily connected in some fashion.

Agreed, I have been doing the same from a different school for decades along with using it in my practice.

The closest other thing I can think of that covers this kind of concept is probably Dao/Tao (the 'way'). More poetic than Kant but far less precise. If either works for you then that is probably enough.

A little less wordy though, the gist is the same.

So presumably there are a number of philosophers around who don’t like the idea?

A shape with no edges is not a shape at all. If there can exist something 'shape-like' beyond sapce and time it does not 'exist' in any sense we can frame and if not soley separate we can appreciate it. This is the difference between being open to discovery by us and not existing, but 'not existing' is a concept that we appreciate not that we do not.

So there may be a sqircle somewhere, but because we can’t frame it, we can’t say it exists. Because to say it exists we would have to define (definitively) it. But we can’t define it, so we can’t say it exists, or that it doesn’t exist?

But surely we can talk about the neumenon and conclude that it exists? But we can’t define it, because it has no shape, colour, dimension(as we know them). This is not to say it doesn’t have attributes like this, but that we don’t know what they are.
Also, if we do attempt to define them, we will only be using attributes that we know about from the phenomenal world and by definition neumena are outside of the phenomenal world. So we would be describing things in the phenomenal world and attributing them to something outside that world. Which we can’t do.

So we can say it exists, provided we don’t define it (because that would miss the mark). Because without it, the phenomenal world wouldn’t exist and the phenomenal world exists.

Seems straightforward enough to me, I don’t know what all the fuss is about.

Surely we have just defined a necessary being?

But it doesn't follow logically that speculative talk about what it might be is meaningless.
— Janus

But it is likely to be dogmatic.

This is why in mysticism the intellect, like the ego is held on a leash and is only of secondary importance (while acknowledging that they are necessary in the cogitation of experience).

The primary means is in seeking to develop the whole being. So that rather than to work out truths, one walks into/upon truths, as if to walk into a room, or through a door.

I’m freeing myself from belief. Yes beliefs in their barest form as you define them are used and required in carrying out the necessities of life.
But why taint the rest of one’s interests with it. It ties one to a rigidity of thought and confines one to a hierarchy of sorts of what is true, or not true. One is then tied to these conclusions and loyalties.

In the practice I describe, such rigidity is stifling. In order to develop a sensitivity to nature and a wisdom regarding reality. It is important to free the mind(not just the intellectual parts), from this and become receptive to more subtle activity in one’s life and surroundings. Yes there is thinking, analysis and the development of philosophies, ideologies, after the fact. But this is as I say secondary and only provides a helpful feedback where appropriate to the sense of communion I describe.
To insist that belief plays a role in this is to imply a role played by the ego and thinking processes and their conclusions. But, it is primary to remove this aspect of being from the practice prior to and in order to carry it out.

It is an act of being, akin to the act of being, with presence, practiced all the time by our cousins, the plants and animals. Who don’t have the intellectual mind, to confuse the issue.

Of course you can say it is necessary for you―but perhaps that is just because you have come to think it is necessary for you, that is you have come to believe it.

It is not necessary to live a life, so does not come under the purview of necessary beliefs. It is an interest, a leisure, pursuit, an interest.

There is a guiding process going on, but it is intuitive, not rational. Is there a necessity for intuitive activity in the mind to require beliefs? In order to carry out its intuiting?

This is a 'yogic pun', of course.

Pun is in my name (;-)